Gay marriages-yes or no?

Started by billyjoebobsue29 pages

In France, it is Legal to Marry your Mother, Brother, Sister, Uncle or Cousin.

In the wake of the Lawrence v. Texas decision by the US Supreme Court, striking down laws criminalizing homosexual sodomy as unconstitutional, some have argued that by the same logic laws against consensual adult incest should be unconstitutional. Some civil libertarians argue that all private sexual activity between consenting adults should be legal, and its criminalization is a violation of human rights — thus, they argue that the criminalization of consensual adult incest is a violation of human rights. In Muth v. Frank, the 7th Circuit Court interpreted the case applying to homosexual activity, and refused to draw this conclusion from Lawrence, however, a decision that attracted mixed opinions.

In France, incest isn't a crime in itself. Incestuous relations between an adult and a minor are prohibited and punished by law, but not between two minors or two adults.


Ancient Civilizations

Some experts claim that incestuous marriages were widespread at least during part of Egyptian history, such as Naphtali Lewis (Life in Egypt under Roman Rule: Oxford, 1983), who claims that numerous papyri attest to many husbands and wives as being brother and sister.

Joyce Tyldesley (Ramesses: Egypt's Great Pharaoh: London, 2000), writing about the pre-Roman Egyptian period, states that within the royal family there was a tradition of hypergamy, where a king or his son might marry a commoner, but his daughter could not marry beneath herself, without the act being considered as degrading to herself. As a result, the royal princess often found herself either marrying her royal brother, or living her life without a spouse.

Though usually frowned upon by present-day people, incest within families of royalty or of high esteem was done because the families believed that marrying anyone who was not of their family was not worthy to marry them.

Some cultures in which royal incestuous marriage (which included brother-sister unions) has been said to be common, are Ancient Egypt (as explained above), pre-contact Hawaii, the pre-Columbian Mixtec and the Inca. Ray Bixler (see references) shows that this popular view is not only without proper support but is contradicted by historical documentation. Incestuous royal marriages were found in only one Egyptian Dynasty, the Ptolemaic dynasty. This dynasty had thirteen rulers, only one of whom resulted from an incestuous (brother-sister) union. There were eight rulers who had a brother-sister marriage, but seven of these did not lead to a successor. Given these numbers, one cannot say that incestuous marriage was common in Ancient Egypt, nor that it was a common means of producing successors even in the one dynasty for which there is considerable evidence of incestuous marriages.

Dynasties of the modern era where there was frequent familial intermarriage were the mid-Habsburgs; one branch ruled over Spain and the other over Austria. Spanish princesses, however, did marry French kings, Louis XIII and Louis XIV who were not Habsburgs (but had Habsburg blood: Louis XIII's grandmother was Johanna of Habsburg, and Louis XIV was his wife's double first cousin: his aunt (a Bourbon) had been her mother, and her aunt (Anne of Habsburg) had been his mother). The Spanish branch died out in 1700, but the last Spanish Habsburg king, Carlos II had been married to María-Luisa of Orléans, grand-daughter of King Charles I of England and niece to King Louis XIV of France: she however had a large amount of Habsburg blood via Anne and Johanna of Habsburg. In 1795 king George IV did marry his first cousin, Caroline of Brunswick, which evidently was an acceptable practice. However, over the last century, Kings Philip II, Philip III, and (for his second time) Philip IV all married their Austrian cousins (in fact, nieces in the case of Ann of Austria and Mariana of Austria). The Austrian branch continued to rule until 1918, and they are still alive and prospering today. Although the ruler of Egypt, Cleopatra, was of Greek origin, she was the daughter of her father's sister, and while reigning she married her brother, Ptolemy XIII.

Incest Repellent?
If gay sex is private, why isn't incest?
By William Saletan

This week, the Associated Press published an interview with Rick Santorum, the third-highest ranking Republican in the U.S. Senate. Referring to a pending case involving sodomy laws, Santorum argued, "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery."

David Smith, the communications director of the Human Rights Campaign, the nation's leading gay rights organization, accused Santorum of "disparaging an entire group of Americans." "He's advocating that a certain segment of American society be disavowed from constitutional protection," Smith charged. "The outrageous thing … is he put being gay on the same legal and moral plane as a person who commits incest. That is repugnant in our view and not right."

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Why not?

Let's leave adultery and polygamy out of it for the moment. Let's set aside morality and stick to law. And let's grant that being attracted to a gender is more fundamental than being attracted to a family member. Santorum sees no reason why, if gay sex is too private to be banned, the same can't be said of incest. Can you give him a reason?

The easy answer—that incest causes birth defects—won't cut it. Birth defects could be prevented by extending to sibling marriage the rule that five states already apply to cousin marriage: You can do it if you furnish proof of infertility or are presumptively too old to procreate. If you're in one of those categories, why should the state prohibit you from marrying your sibling?

On Wednesday, I asked Smith that question. "We're talking about people; they're talking about specific acts," he said. "It has nothing to do with these other situations that are largely frowned upon by the vast majority of Americans." Is being frowned upon by the vast majority of Americans an acceptable standard for deciding which practices shouldn't be constitutionally protected? "It's not part of the discussion," Smith replied. I asked whether it was constitutionally OK for states to ban incest. "Yes," he said. Why? "There's a compelling interest for the state to ban that practice," he said. What's the compelling interest? For that, Smith referred me to HRC General Counsel Kevin Layton.

Layton pointed out that laws against incest "already exist side by side" with the Supreme Court's current right-to-privacy doctrine. From this, he inferred that the doctrine doesn't cover those laws. But laws against gay sex also exist side by side with the privacy doctrine. If coexistence implies compatibility, then Santorum wins on both counts: States can ban incest and gay sex.

I asked Layton whether states should be allowed to ban incest. "They have a right to do that, as long as they have a rational basis," he said. Do they have such a basis? "It's not my point to argue what a state's rational basis would be for regulating cousin marriage," Layton replied. "The only way the court's decision in [the sodomy] case would go down the slippery slope to incest is if legally they were the same thing, which they're not." Why not? Essentially, Layton reasoned that it isn't his job to explain why incest and gay sex are different. It's Santorum's job to explain why they're similar.

But HRC's own arguments hint at similarities. Like Smith, a defender of brother-sister incest could accuse Santorum of "disparaging an entire group of Americans" and "advocating that a certain segment of American society be disavowed from constitutional protection." In its brief to the Supreme Court in the sodomy case, HRC maintains that "criminalizing the conduct that defines the class serves no legitimate state purpose," since gays "are not less productive—or more dangerous—members of the community by mere dint of their sexual orientation." They sustain "committed relationships" and "serve their country in the military and in the government." Fair enough. But couldn't the same be said of sibling couples? Don't laugh. Cousin couples are already making this argument.

I'm a lifestyle conservative and an orientation liberal. The way I see it, stable families are good, homosexuality isn't a choice, and therefore, gay marriage should be not just permitted but encouraged. Morally, I think incest is bad because it confuses relationships. But legally, I don't see why a sexual right to privacy, if it exists, shouldn't cover consensual incest. I think Santorum is wrong. But I can't explain why, and so far, neither can the Human Rights Campaign.

Homosexuals and Heterosexuals are not the only ones who should be allowed to have the right to marriage. Marriage is a human right, and no restrictions should be put on a person's "right" to love.

Originally posted by billyjoebobsue
Homosexuals and Heterosexuals are not the only ones who should be allowed to have the right to marriage. Marriage is a human right, and no restrictions should be put on a person's "right" to love.

Nah, Marriage is a privilege.....but either everyone or no one should have it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nah, Marriage is a privilege.....but either everyone or no one should have it.

Exactly. Any two people who has the ability to have sex should be able to get married.

Geez Whob, you aren't even trying anymore.

Originally posted by billyjoebobsue
Exactly. Any two people who has the ability to have sex should be able to get married.

Well the ability to consent to sex . Or even more two human people that have the ability to consent (in the legal sense, meaning understanding the consequences) to being married.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well the ability to consent to sex . Or even more two human people that have the ability to consent (in the legal sense, meaning understanding the consequences) to being married.

Agreed, some people have the ability to consent at 8, others have the ability to consent at earlier ages. It's all a personal thing, the law should have no involvement in it. I knew and was mature enough to make the choice when i was about 9 years old, and i went through puberty at an early age, so it was easy for me to loose my virginity at the age of 9 because i knew I was in love with the man who i fell in love with.

Originally posted by billyjoebobsue
Agreed, some people have the ability to consent at 8, others have the ability to consent at earlier ages. It's all a personal thing, the law should have no involvement in it. I knew and was mature enough to make the choice when i was about 9 years old, and i went through puberty at an early age, so it was easy for me to loose my virginity at the age of 9 because i knew I was in love with the man who i fell in love with.

Yeah.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah.

Yeah i know I was in love with him he was a lot different than all the other 32 year olds i had been with, a lot nicer and kinder and more mature. He's the love of my life, and we have a kid together, when i graduate from junior high next year, we're going to move to the Phillipines and get married. They're a lot more tolerant of people over their.

Originally posted by billyjoebobsue
Yeah i know I was in love with him he was a lot different than all the other 32 year olds i had been with, a lot nicer and kinder and more mature. He's the love of my life, and we have a kid together, when i graduate from junior high next year, we're going to move to the Phillipines and get married. They're a lot more tolerant of people over their.

Good, I am happy for you. Good luck with your family, a great responsibility you are taking, I hope you are up for it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Good, I am happy for you. Good luck with your family, a great responsibility you are taking, I hope you are up for it.

Thank you. Unlike most Germans I've met, you are very kind, tolerant, wise, and loving. Thank you again for being so understanding.

I hope when you have an 8 year old of your own, you will allow him/her to have the sexual freedom with their bodies that i was allowed to have at the age of 9, and that if you have a boy and a girl, you will allow them to physically express themselves freely with each other if they choose to do so and fall in love.

Originally posted by billyjoebobsue
Yeah i know I was in love with him he was a lot different than all the other 32 year olds i had been with, a lot nicer and kinder and more mature. He's the love of my life, and we have a kid together, when i graduate from junior high next year, we're going to move to the Phillipines and get married. They're a lot more tolerant of people over their.

EDIT: On further thought, billyjoebobsue has to be stealth trolling. There's no possible way that he can be serious.

Originally posted by billyjoebobsue
some people have the ability to consent at 8, others have the ability to consent at earlier ages. It's all a personal thing, the law should have no involvement in it. I knew and was mature enough to make the choice when i was about 9 years old, and i went through puberty at an early age, so it was easy for me to loose my virginity at the age of 9 because i knew I was in love with the man who i fell in love with.

I am sure you are very confident in your current position. But I will also tell you that you would be hard pressed to find a 25 year old person who remotely has the same interests as they did when they were 8 years old.

Your position that an 8 or 9 year old has any maturity whatsoever where they can make logical and sensible decision regarding the rest of their life, never mind the emotional maturity to deal with a sexual relationship is ludicrous.

I wish you well, but I am more inclined to believe that you are potentially really f*cking up your life right now and have not a clue what you are in for.

*edit*

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Geez Whob, you aren't even trying anymore.

Damn, I missed that before I made my post. I actually got tricked into believing that for a moment. That's what happens when you leave KMC for a while I guess. Fool me once, shame on you.........

Whob, you are a tool.

Originally posted by billyjoebobsue
Agreed, some people have the ability to consent at 8, others have the ability to consent at earlier ages. It's all a personal thing, the law should have no involvement in it. I knew and was mature enough to make the choice when i was about 9 years old, and i went through puberty at an early age, so it was easy for me to loose my virginity at the age of 9 because i knew I was in love with the man who i fell in love with.

Whob.... you are getting your socks mixed up. Gay Gay claimed that to.

Still, beyond that, in general debate, that was a load of tosh. The claim you had been through puberty by the age of nine is absurd - while in rare cases it can start very early it would still have continued into the teens. What, was this sock born already experiencing puberty?

And psychologically an 8/9 year old is not considered to have sufficient social/mental maturity to deal with such a decision, or to understand the full range of implications.

I'm for gay marriages because I have a lot of gay friends. Let people marry who they want, who cares?

Okay, so billybob is both guilty of trolling and being a sock.

Originally posted by FeceMan
EDIT: On further thought, billyjoebobsue has to be stealth trolling. There's no possible way that he can be serious.

Stealth trolling? Try brazen trolling.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Stealth trolling? Try [b]brazen trolling. [/B]

Nah, brazen trolling would have to be something that would cause more friction on KMC. Something about Jesus rocking or Clinton eating children would do the trick, methinks. (I mean, we all know that Jesus prefers the taste of baby meat and Clinton is the star of KISS.)

Anyway, where was this thread before whob started extolling the virtues of pedophilia and ultra-tolerance in a really bad straw-man attempt?