I have to say that some of you are clearly stretching my nerves...
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sama you seem to be capable of deductive reasoning, so let me ask you something..Yoda stalemated a not so powerful Sidious, while Kun I gues "tooled" Vodo, who was considered to be Yoda's equal or superior(this reading from previous threads). Kun also displayed far more force abilities while Sidious and Yoda displayed far less. Deductive reasoning states that Yoda wasn't able to beat a somewhat old Sidious in a saber duel(granted he probably would have if it lasted longer), what makes you think he can contend with a YOUNGER, more POWERFUL lightsaber prodigy who has the secrets of the ancient sith, and had no equal in his time?
Lmao. You call this "deductive reasoning" ? May I point out that this entire reasoning is based on the opinion that Vodo is equal or superior to Yoda which directly contradicts canon material ?
Also nice how you try to play down Yoda's lightsaber abilities. First: As far as the script tells us he disarmed Sidious although we don't see it happening. Second: Did you just forget the fact that Yoda was superior to Mace Windu (as Windu stated himself several times) who - ups - was a lightsaber prodigy on his own and managed to develop his own style in the age of 13 - something that was later called the "most deadly lightsaber style". Hmm. And then of course Yoda managed to be superior to Dooku who trained the "ultimate form of lightsaber to lightsaber confrontation" to such an extent that he was able to defeat Jedi Council Members without using the force meaning he took down people that used the force with his duelling skills only.
So if a lightsaber prodigy who had 40 years to practice his own style wasn't able to overcome Yoda - what makes you think that another lightsaber prodigy who had far less training and experience can do it ? And you didn't still answer my question how Kun would even hit him with a lightsaber given the fact that Yoda could dodge the attacks of three Jedi (including Vaapad master Depa Billaba) effortless.
Aside of this: If we can use earlier versions of the script to develop a picture of Lucas' own vision than I have to say that Yoda was by far the best saber duellist in the PT due to the fact that he destroyed Dooku in the AotC duel (he disarmed Dooku and then jumped on his shoulders to drive his sword into Dooku's head - talk about ownage).
And force powers ? Well...maybe you should actually read some EU material instead of basing you entire opinion on some films. Here some nice little facts about Yoda:
- in 700 BBY Yoda did lead the campaign against the Dark Jedi on Bpfassh, he tracked on of them to Dagobah, defeated him and "stored" the Dark Side energy into the tree we later see in ESB
- in 400 BBY he basically fought the Witches of Dathomir into a stalemate after they did bring down the Chu'unthor to the planet
- in 171 BBY he travelled to Ord Cestus and saved the X'Ting race from extinction on his own
- in 33 BBY he led the Council in the Ynchorri uprising - funny enough the scene were he blocks a blaster bolt, lifts Windu out of the line and slams the Ynchorri who was shooting into the next wall - all at once.
Clone Wars feats:
- lifted up that heavy metal thingy to save Obi-Wan and Anakin
- took down a Hailfire battle droid on his own - without using his weapon
- on Ilum he fought the droids that did attack the temple finally taking them down by causing an avalanche that took down an entire mountain top
- he then lifted the remains of the entire temple up to rescue Luminara and Bariss who needed their combined powers not to get crushed
- destroyed Asajj Ventress ship
- battled and forced Dooku to retreat twice
- deflection of blaster bolts with his bare hands
- deflection of Force Lightning with his bare hands
- deflection of multiple blaster shots coming from different directions at once (ROTS scene - talk about fastness)
- Battle Meditation to a degree that made far inferior forces win battles just because he appeared on the battle field (as seen on Kashyyyk)
- according to the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook Yoda was able to remove the Dark Side from nexus points (places, planets, equipment and even persons). I wonder what Kun would do if the Dark Side energy is taken from his amulets...
- able to feel the death or strong emotions of single Jedi Knights basically across the Galaxy (as seen in AotC when he felt that Anakin killed the sandpeople on Tatooine)
- massive uses of force TK and force push
Aside of this we have Dooku's opinion from Dark Rendevouz that a Dark Side Yoda would destroy Sidious in the matter of seconds. Then we have Windu's thoughts in Shatterpoint stating that Yoda would have been easily able to lift up a massive vehicle and stop an avalange both at once. And this two persons most likely knew Yoda's abilities better than anybody else.
Do you really want to compare that to Kun who's force feats are limited to force pushing Sylvar, force push (or something similar) Aleema Keto, kill Odan-Urr (maybe force choke), defeat a Sith worm and destroy Nadd ? At least the last two actions were more due to his amulets than to his force knowledge (and he possibly used the amulet against Odan and Aleema too). Of course Kun controlled the Senate which is pretty impressive. On the other hand Joruus C'baoth - the mad clone of somebody who was far below Yoda in terms of force powers in the PT - managed to mind control thousand or ten-thousands of beings on his own. Could Yoda probably do the same if he wanted to ? Very likely, isn't it ?
So please...what do you have to put Kun far above Yoda ? Amulets that Yoda can maybe destroy ? Force attacks that Yoda has shown to be able to block ? A Sith freezing spell which didn't affect Jedi anyways as it seems ? Lightsaber combat abilities that are clearly not enough to destroy Yoda ? Did you ever ask yourself the question what the people Kun did personaly face have ever shown to us in terms of force mastery and combat skill ?
And please...I'm a great fan of Exar Kun and the TOTJ comics while I disliked the entire idea to let Yoda fight with a lightsaber - but still I won't contradict Lucas himself, his films or his "vision" of the character for the sake of being a fanboy. And yes...I said that I don't see Kun losing to Yoda - before watching the CW cartoons and getting a hand on some EU literature. And now I say that I don't see Yoda losing to Kun unless Kun is able to tire him out which is pretty much debateable given that even Mace obviously never managed to do it.
Nai, notice how I never argued Yoda's power.. So you posting all of that crap doesn't solve anything because I agree with that.. Now you provide more evidence than Lightsnake but how are all of those feat war relevant in 1 on 1 combat? Are you telling me Yoda would curbstomp Kun, who not only was a lightsaber prodigy but created his own style? Are you going to tell me Yoda can block amulet blasts? Please explain the "HOW" that nobody else has been able to. ALso, when did YOda jump on DOoku and drive a sword through his head?
And I personally like Yoda better than Kun but let me point out a few things.. Kun learned an incredible amount in 1 year, and became exponentially more powerful which speaks a lot about the ancient sith.. Obviously I can't use the (if he was 800 years he would own Yoda) nonsense. However(and I'm not saying Kun>Yoda in saber combat), Kun was unmatched in saber combat, and he learned more in 1 year than most people(including the majority of the PT Jedi) learned in their lifetime. Now the availability of knowledge, the potential he had, and the amount of knowledge he COULD have gained obviously are irrelevant since this isn't a "What If" scenario, but he did possess tremendous skill and power that are relevant to l1 v 1 combat and as I said previously, the x factor would be his amulet..
Oh, one thing I want to add with the Clone Wars, Nai...just to demonstrate Yoda's insane strength and stamina: He carries a gatling gun the size of a HOUSE on his back....
Here's a tiny problem, sexy....those amulets are clearly NOT infallible or the New Sith empire and the Ancients Sith Empire never would have lost. Yoda possessed tremendous power in mano a mano combat himself. Oh, and lsot time I checked, a dark Jedi who created her own style was killed by young Luke...Nikkos Tyris created his own style and he was faced down by Nejaa Halcyon
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, one thing I want to add with the Clone Wars, Nai...just to demonstrate Yoda's insane strength and stamina: He carries a gatling gun the size of a HOUSE on his back....Here's a tiny problem, sexy....those amulets are clearly NOT infallible or the New Sith empire and the Ancients Sith Empire never would have lost. Yoda possessed tremendous power in mano a mano combat himself. Oh, and lsot time I checked, a dark Jedi who created her own style was killed by young Luke...Nikkos Tyris created his own style and he was faced down by Nejaa Halcyon
Again lightsnake, you fail to show me the relevance in your statements.. The amulets have absolutely nothing to do with the fall of the sith empire, the mere fact that you add that shows me your elementary debating skills on the matter. I KNOW you can do better. And why are you comparing a Dark Jedi to Exar Kun? I simply said Exar Kun created his own saber and his own style which died with him.
Yes, the fact that the jedi exterminated a race that crafted amulets means nothing.. Let's all forget Sadow's stupidity, and the constant fighting among the sith, and the fact that Sadow put all of his marbles on this war.. You know, the crucial stuff.. And Kun creating his own technique has more significance because Vodo didn't know how to defend against it, it was unique, and it died with him.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
We know Odan fought Sith LORDS, too. And once more: Lots of people crafted their own unique technique, MACE crafted the deadliest unique technique
Ok, Odan fought sith lords, and? Can you PLEASE for once stay on topic? ALways with the irrelevant misdirection. And so what if Mace created Vaapad? He was 1 of 3 people using it, and it was a known technique. Kun created his own technique, and it died with him.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Big deal! Vaapad was a unique style that noone'd have ever seen before.And doesn't the fact that ODan fought Sith Lords, all of nwhom we saw carrying amulets around mean anything in regards to those amulets really not helping?
No, vaapad was a unique style. Mace invented it. What is your point? Again you have none. And the fact that Urr defeated sith lords who were average at best means nothing. How many times do I have to tell you that amulets were designed to channel force abilities, and/or to pass down knowledge to generations.. So no, it says nothing.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kun invented his style, Mace invented his.and Sith lords are average? Okay, we're getting this from where?
Considering the fact that since they didn't display anything, they were average, or more than average, or less than average. Nothing suggests that every ancient sith was uber.. And again, Mace invented his style and Vaapad became known. Kun invented his style and it died with him, so only Kun knows it.. Everybody in the PT era is familiar with Vaapd.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
We never saw them, so the point is moot. And no, Vaapad didn't 'become known'...only three Jedi practiced it...If Vaapad is so known, why are people ASKING Mace about what the HELL Vaapad is in Shatterpoint?
Yes, your point is moot.. Your OWN point, thanks for clearing that up lightsnake. And the style was known, but only practiced by 3 jedi. And lets say that Vaapad is NOT known, then that proves my point as to why Kun would win, as Mace did.