Originally posted by Ushgarak
Besides, the passage was only there to show QGJ's thoughts- that before him was a damn fine warrior. It is not a categorical and undeniable God-given statement that Maul could never improve, which is obviously silly.
It's the narrator describing him, it doesn't say "Qui-Gon thinks" or "Qui-Gon surmises". It says "Darth Maul a warrior in his prime - never to get any better - his powers at their apex". How does that reflect Qui-Gon's thoughts? Why would Qui-Gon think Maul couldn't get any better, and better yet - how would he even know Maul was at his peak? And peak is not used to described their physical body. Are you serious?
Originally posted by Ushgarak
'A Warrior in his prime' means physically. Sorry, that's actually pretty obvious.
How about you tell me how it's supposedly "obvious"? Where in the hell is physique even mentioned? It says "his powers" which are plural, not "his physique".
Furthermore, a "Warrior in his prime" means just that, a warrior at his best.
I am afraid the sentence is worthless in any other interpretation because it is plainly not true in the Star Wars universe that your powers cannot improve into old age, nor could QGJ definitvely declare that even if that was his intent. [/B]
Qui-Gon didn't even think it! It was the narrator describing Maul, not Qui-Gon.
As well, how do you know when Maul would reach his peak? Do you know if Exar Kun reached his peak in TOTJ? No? There's nothing to contradict it.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Also, 'apex' most likely means, in this context, 'point of culmination'. Maul is a complete Sith Warrior, trained for this moment. That doesn't mean he will never be better than that moment. That is not what culmination means.
Oh really?
cul·mi·nate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klm-nt)
v. intr. cul·mi·nat·ed, cul·mi·nat·ing, cul·mi·nates
To reach the highest point or degree; climax: habitual antagonism that culminated in open hostility.
He was at his highest point in TPM. It says he will never get better, which furthers the point that TPM was his peak.
Unless you can tell me it is a DEFINITE Maul will get stronger, then you have no case. But you can't.
Sorry, I have to strongly disagree about that being narration- it is clearly QGJ's point of view.
"Where in the hell is physique even mentioned"
Because when you say someone is in their 'prime' that is what you mean. Simple English.
Sorry, but to interpret that paragraph as meaning that Maul could never ever get any better is pretty silly.
Originally posted by Advent
Oh really?cul·mi·nate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klm-nt)
v. intr. cul·mi·nat·ed, cul·mi·nat·ing, cul·mi·nates[b]To reach the highest point or degree;
climax: habitual antagonism that culminated in open hostility.He was at his highest point in TPM. It says he will never get better, which furthers the point that TPM was his peak.
Unless you can tell me it is a DEFINITE Maul will get stronger, then you have no case. But you can't. [/B]
No, the better use of culmination is 'to come to completion'.
That was the point Maul had reached- the moment his life has been building up to.
Again, that is not even close to being a definitive statement that he can never improve. And as I say, such an interpretation would be so contradictory to the rest of Star Wars as to be meaningless.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
[B]Sorry, I have to strongly disagree about that being narration- it is clearly QGJ's point of view.
Did you even read the TPM novel? The narrator describes Maul as such, Qui-Gon's thoughts were ALREADY ESTABLISHED. The narrator, not QGJ, describes Maul.
And furthermore, how the hell would Qui-Gon know Maul won't get any better? That he's at the peak of his power? Etc.
Qui-Gon doesn't even know if Maul could get more muscle mass or not!
Because when you say someone is in their 'prime' that is what you mean. Simple English.
Simple english?
The earliest hours of the day; dawn.
The first season of the year; spring.
The age of ideal physical perfection and intellectual vigor.
The period or phase of ideal or peak condition. See Synonyms at bloom1.
It can mean either physique or peak condition, i.e. best.
The thesaurus also points this out:
Main Entry: prime
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: best
Sorry, but to interpret that paragraph as meaning that Maul could never ever get any better is pretty silly.
Sorry, but to argue with the dictionary is silly. I don't care if you're a mod or not, it doesn't mean you're right.
Hey, Nebaris, does this look like "indirectly QGJ's thoughts"?
Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.
Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. It was an added bonus that he was able to engage two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win.
How the hell would QGJ know this shit? It's the narration describing why Maul is doing this as when it says "driven by messianic hatred".
I am, however, a Degree trained English teacher other than being a mod, and so I can rather cast down your use of the dictionary as being inept.
Sorry, but when you describe someone as being at their prime, you mean physically, that is just how the term is used.
it is rather silly to try and talk about things like 'peaks' when Maul has no 'after' this point for there to be a downslope to describe a peak by, of course.
Yes, I have read the novel, and I find your interpretation fatuous.
But let's cut to the chase here. Unless you are trying to make up some mental deficiency in Maul, there is absolutely not the slightest reason why he couldn't have improved further. So whatever you want to do, the passage has to be interpreted in that light, or it is simply contradicting film canon about the development of force users.
So either way, it is useless to try and use it the way you are.
Maul could have improved. Pretty obvious, really.
Sorry, but when you describe someone as being at their prime, you mean physically, that is just how the term is used.
So, when I say "Jet Li was making good movies in the 1980's, it was his prime", am I talking about physically? No.
On top of that, there isn't just one definition for "prime", as you seem to be implying.
But let's cut to the cahse here.
You're a "degree trained English teacher", so can you tell me what in the hell a "cahse" is?
Unless you are trying to make up some mental defiency in Maul, there is absolutely not the slightest reason why he couldn't have improved further.
This doesn't make sense then.
If Maul was at his physical perfection in TPM, is it impossible for him to gain more muscle mass? Or become stronger physically?
If Maul worked out more heavily, he'd become greater than that point, that is common knowledge, so how does your description make sense then?
Yes, I would say it was a very safe statement that Maul was never going to be in better physical condition than he was in TPM. It is the kind of statement that people make all the time and only sheer pedantry would dispute it.
"Jet Li was making good movies in the 1980's, it was his prime",
Context. And that is your problem with dictionary use.
"so can you tell me what in the hell a "cahse" is?"
That is staggeringly feeble and says a lot about your mentality.
There are only two options left here. Either the passage refers to Maul's physique, or it is simply wrong. Choose either way, but it is no good to you.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yes, I would say it was a very safe statement that Maul was never going to be in better physical condition than he was in TPM.
Really? He's only 24 years old. Are you saying he can't get any more stronger? That's outright ridiculous considering how much Maul trains.
It is the kind of statement that people make all the time and only sheer pedantry would dispute it.
So, we can just say "It's safe to assume Maul won't get stronger despite still being young, and the fact he trains almost everyday"? Given what we know, Maul would be able to get physically stronger. So, you're descriptions are wrong - seeing as there isn't only one definition for the word "prime".
Context. And that is your problem with dictionary use.
"A warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers (plural) in his apex". Powers is plural, when it says his "powers" - why the hell would we assume just his physique alone, when it outright says "powers". Adding to the fact it is highly illogical that Maul cannot get physically stronger, but as we know potential works in Star Wars: once you reach it, that is it.
That is staggeringly feeble and says a lot about your mentality.
Why? Because you want to parade around you're a "degree trained English teacher", but you can't even spell "chase" and/or use the spellcheck?
There are only two options left here. Either the passage refers to Maul's physique, or it is simply wrong. Choose either way, but it is no good to you.
I'll choose Ushgarak is wrong for $500, Alex.
With just Ush? Because I for one would actually like to continue.
Now it is clear that prime or apex or whatever basically means the best or highest point, however you seem to be unable to comprehend that there are two interpretations that can be formed:
1. Maul had become the best he has ever been.
2. Maul had become the best he will ever be.
Now what seems more logical to you?
Originally posted by Sith'ari
With just Ush? Because I for one would actually like to continue.
Oh? You want to pick up the pieces after you let Ushgarak do all the work? Yeah, maybe another time.
Didn't you just say you didn't want to get into a debate?
I don't need to get in a 20 page argument with you.
So, suggestion #1: STFU. There is no number two.
I actually have the novelization sitting on my shelf in my closet, so I decided to dig it out and look this passage up (which is in chapter 22, btw).
And it's very clear from how the first 4-5 pages of that chapter are written that it is intended to be from Qui-Gon's point of view. It keeps going to what Qui-Gon is seeing, what he is doing, what he is thinking, etc.
I also would say it's very feasible that Maul had hit his peak, physically, at that point. Even the way he trained, it says that that moment had been what he had been training for - the chance to meet and fight a Jedi. However, all Force-users tend to get more powerful with the Force as they get older and practice, so I'd say it's safe to say that by peak they mean that that was the strongest overall he'd be, but (if he survived) as he got older, his physical strength would eventually start to weaken, though his strength in the Force would increase.
Originally posted by Lana
And it's very clear from how the first 4-5 pages of that chapter are written that it is intended to be from Qui-Gon's point of view. It keeps going to what Qui-Gon is seeing, what he is doing, what he is thinking, etc.
Together, they were able to hold their own against the Sith Lord, but their efforts at attack, at assuming the offensive against this dangerous adversary, were woefully inadequate.
Darth Maul was a warrior in his prime, never to be any better, his powers at their apex. In addition, he was driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights, the enemies of the Sith for millennia. It was an added bonus that he was able to engage two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win.
How would Qui-Gon Jinn know Maul was at his highest peak of physical condition? And the first sentence is describing the fight from a narrative point of view. And, if you'll notice "It was an added bonus that he was able to engage the two. He had no fear for himself, no doubt that he would win".
The "He" is Maul, and is it descibing Maul's thoughts not from Jinn's point of view.
Originally posted by Sith'ari
I don't need to get in a 20 page argument with you =/ I do not want to get into a debate with you.
No, you just want to try to debate me after Ushgarak defeated me. Reason? There should be none since I was defeated by someone else on the point you attempted to argue.
'How would Qui-Gon Jinn know Maul was at his highest peak of physical condition?'
Perhaps it was an assumption...
'And the first sentence is describing the fight from a narrative point of view'
There's a writing technique, free indirect discourse (I think) where the narrator indirectly voices one of his character's feelings, this is clearly the case.
'No, you just want to try to debate me after Ushgarak defeated me. Reason? There should be none since I was defeated by someone else on the point you attempted to argue.'
No no. Ushgarak defeated you, but through a completely different way than the way that I was debating with you. I don't even care so much about debating the original point, just your wrong interpretations of the English dictionary and inability to understand the context of particular statements.