Naga Sadow and Dooku vs Exar Kun and Yoda

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, Nai said it best. The fact that he had assistance with amulets should not do anything to diminish the character. In fact it shows that he knew the exact technique, but chose to either channel it through something or amplify it. In no way should that put him below those 4, I think that is an illogical argument. And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

I just said we shouldn't seperate the "tools" of a force user from his actual "powers" in a versus fight. The point is that in this situation both Kun and Sadow have amulets which might prevent them from using amulet blasts against each other (just a theory).
This means neither of them can curpstomp the other and I doubt that Sadow will defeat Kun or Yoda before the other one of them has taken care of Dooku (if he can even do it).
Which means that this fight will always end with Yoda and Kun vs Sadow - and I doubt that Sadow has a chance here.

Yea Nai I said it would end up Yoda and Kun vs. Sadow at the end. But I was trying to make a point that you can't put Kun>Sadow just because Sadow used amulets.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Again Nai, notice how I never denied Yoda having TK, meaning I KNOW he has it and I've seen it. Read the post again before responding PLEASE.

You asked how force TK would help Yoda in a versus fight - I told you. End of story.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea Nai I said it would end up Yoda and Kun vs. Sadow at the end. But I was trying to make a point that you can't put Kun>Sadow just because Sadow used amulets.

They both do use the same amulets and Kun has shown us more than Sadow in "direct combat" situation. So if they use the same equipment but one of them seems to be better I have to say that this person might be indead better.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They both do use the same amulets and Kun has shown us more than Sadow in "direct combat" situation. So if they use the same equipment but one of them seems to be better I have to say that this person might be indead better.

Yes but I can also counter this by saying that since Sadow created the amulet, he would have more control over it, and would more likely know a defense for it as opposed to Kun. And about the force TK, you're saying that would win Yoda the fight, so Yoda is technically>all then right? And that's assuming Sadow doesn't have a defense for it.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
The fact that he had assistance with amulets should not do anything to diminish the character.

He didn't have assistance from his amulets, he had assistance from his ship, and meditation sphere.

In fact it shows that he knew the exact technique, but chose to either channel it through something or amplify it.

So because the first person to build a gun had knowledge of how to do so, he was capable of firing bullets out of his ass?

In no way should that put him below those 4, I think that is an illogical argument. And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

No, it shouldn't.

Did Kun use Sadow's knowledge to become a master lightsaber duelist, and develop his own lightsaber/style? No? Okay then. His skill with a lightsaber made him uber, and considering Sadow doesn't even use one...

He learned Sith magic from Sadow, does that mean that Sadow is more powerful than him? I guess Sadow is inferior to whoever he learned Sith alchemy/magic from then, too? No.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
He didn't have assistance from his amulets, he had assistance from his ship, and meditation sphere.

So because the first person to build a gun had knowledge of how to do so, he was capable of firing bullets out of his ass?

No, it shouldn't.

Did Kun use Sadow's knowledge to become a master lightsaber duelist, and develop his own lightsaber/style? No? Okay then. His skill with a lightsaber made him uber, and considering Sadow doesn't even use one...

He learned Sith magic from Sadow, does that mean that Sadow is more powerful than him? I guess Sadow is inferior to whoever he learned Sith alchemy/magic from then, too? No.

Sama, he had assistance from his ship, and what did the ship use? Ah yes, Sadow's sith magic. The fact that Sadow has the ability to do what he did should say a lot about his knowledge. And again we are referring to the knowledge Kun used from Sadow. Obviously the saber combat had nothing to do with Sadow, therefore I didn't mention it. And yes, Sadow uses a sword, what is your point? And Kun learned sith magic for only a year, while Sadow learned it for how long? Obviously quality>quantity but what exactly puts Kun above Sadow?

Logical deduction?

Do you understand what logical deduction is or are you just repeating it to sound intelligent?

Deducing something logically?

Lightsnake, I can repeat what you just said too, does that mean I understand it? Why did you even bother to write it?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Sama, he had assistance from his ship, and what did the ship use? Ah yes, Sadow's sith magic.

What? What the hell are you talking about? Are you saying Sadow's ship was created by Sith magic, or something?

The fact that Sadow has the ability to do what he did should say a lot about his knowledge.

Okay, he's knowledgeable. And? I guess Kun can trap life energy without use of a sphere then?

And again we are referring to the knowledge Kun used from Sadow. Obviously the saber combat had nothing to do with Sadow, therefore I didn't mention it.

You were basically implying that what he got from Sadow alone made him uber. This was not the case:

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

That's ridiculous. May I remind you that Exar Kun didn't even get Sadow's teaching when he used those amulet blasts? May I remind you Kun toyed with and destroyed Master Vodo without any knowledge from Sadow? May I remind you Exar Kun developed his lightsaber/style without any help from Sadow?

A lot of those things made him "UBER powerful", and some were without Sadow, so there goes your logic.

And yes, Sadow uses a sword, what is your point?

My point was that he didn't learn his combat abilities from Sadow, and thus it wasn't Sadow alone that made Exar "uber" as you were implying.

And Kun learned sith magic for only a year, while Sadow learned it for how long? Obviously quality>quantity but what exactly puts Kun above Sadow?

You were saying that because Exar Kun learned from Sadow, that Sadow must be more powerful than Kun himself. That's not the case.

No no you misunderstand. The majority(if not all) of his dark side abilities most likely would have been learned from Sadow. I specifically stated that his saber abilities had nothing to do with Sadow so there was no point in mentioning it. And no, Sadow's ship did the damage, but it was through sith magic that the core of the stars are ripped. I'm saying there's nothing to suggest Kun>Sadow.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No no you misunderstand.

No, I don't.

The majority(if not all) of his dark side abilities most likely would have been learned from Sadow.

His Sith alchemy, and Sith magic skills - yes. And?

1.) That doesn't mean much, just because he learned them from Sadow, doesn't mean he couldn't have experimented with them, and create new abilities, and such. Either way, it doesn't matter much.

2.) You did state this:

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

Unless I am delusional, this means that he didn't do anything impressive before Sadow's teachings. But in reality, he did - his lightsaber abilities for one (which I'd put above his skill in the Force), and more.

And no, Sadow's ship did the damage, but it was through sith magic that the core of the stars are ripped. I'm saying there's nothing to suggest Kun>Sadow.

And I'm saying there's nothing to suggest Sadow > Kun, or anything of the sort. And it was through the "remaining power of the ship" that caused solar flares. Yes, it used Sith magic to do such, but are you saying that Tarkin can destroy planets with a wave of his hand (without the DS)? Or that Kun can trap life energies (without the sphere)?

And, anyways, tell me - how is Sadow going to combat Kun when he's at point blank range and slices his head off a la ROTS Dooku...?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Escape, Nai said it best. The fact that he had assistance with amulets should not do anything to diminish the character. In fact it shows that he knew the exact technique, but chose to either channel it through something or amplify it. In no way should that put him below those 4, I think that is an illogical argument. And the fact that Kun didn't do anything without Sadow's amulet or Sadow's teaching, and the fact that Kun became UBER powerful after only a year of learning Sadow's teachings, should put him below Sadow.

Then I am afraid that I will have to disagree with Nai on this point.

If they had the ability to do it themselves, then they would not have created the amulets. And, before you toss the fact that they created these so-called artifacts for purely "the future", it should be made known that that isn't apparently the entire purpose of these amulets, as they used them in combat themselves.

Furthermore, I am not aware of Sadow using these nifty amulet blasts without the amulet.

So, do not presume to tell me that they performed these abilities without technological assistance.

Ok escape then I will use one of your examples. These amulets sometimes channel the force through them and sometimes augment X power to increase it. Your example was steroids. Barry Bonds could be the best player in the game or among the best of them, but by using steroids he became beyond everybody else. Are you saying he wasn't a great baseball player before that? Same goes with the amulets. The fact that you didn't see them doing anything without their amulet(absence of proof), should not diminish their abilities. The fact that they created said amulelts and poured their abilities into them speaks positively about them. YOu yourself mentioned that you've seen them do with the amulets that you've never seen anyone do without? Then that's exactly why the created the amulets, to do things others can't. But then again, you didn't see anyone after them with the ability to create amulets and with the knowledge to channel the force through them or augment them in the way of the ancient sith, so instead of telling me they are nothing without their amulets, give them the credit they deserve for having the ability to create such amulets and to create crazy force abilities through those amulets.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok escape then I will use one of your examples. These amulets sometimes channel the force through them and sometimes augment X power to increase it. Your example was steroids. Barry Bonds could be the best player in the game or among the best of them, but by using steroids he became beyond everybody else. Are you saying he wasn't a great baseball player before that? Same goes with the amulets. The fact that you didn't see them doing anything without their amulet(absence of proof), should not diminish their abilities. The fact that they created said amulelts and poured their abilities into them speaks positively about them. YOu yourself mentioned that you've seen them do with the amulets that you've never seen anyone do without? Then that's exactly why the created the amulets, to do things others can't. But then again, you didn't see anyone after them with the ability to create amulets and with the knowledge to channel the force through them or augment them in the way of the ancient sith, so instead of telling me they are nothing without their amulets, give them the credit they deserve for having the ability to create such amulets and to create crazy force abilities through those amulets.

Ah, and there you go. If I may:

Barry Bonds could be the best player in the game or among the best of them, but by using steroids he became beyond everybody else.

You've underlined the entire predicament. I never denied that Sadow was one of the best. I believe that I told you that he had to possess a notable amount of energy for the amulets in question to augment - and that he was an incredibly brilliant alchemist.

But, you've just proved my point. Without the help of the steroids, Bonds was just your above-average player. Not the best. Good, but not the best.

Which is my point. Sadow, even without his amulets, is powerful. But not on Kun's level, not on Palpatine's level, and not on Yoda's level.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You asked how force TK would help Yoda in a versus fight - I told you. End of story.

Can you guys stay on topic?

What do you mean not on Kun's level? Kun was nothing more than a saber master without the amulet. With it he was the best of the best? And what makes you think Sadow was just average? What makes you think he wasn't the best? Notice how I used that example for your augmenting theory. What about the fact that these amulets were created to augment their powers, OR channel their hatred or dark side through these things, as an intermediary, as opposed to nothing? What makes you think Bonds wasn't the best player in the game or among the best before steroids? In fact he WAS among the best without roids, and he became the absolute WHILE on roids. Perhaps I should use Sammy Sosa as a better example? Regardless, there is nothing to point to Kun being superior to Sadow in anyway, and there is nothing that points Kun to being anything but a saber master.

Kun was able to finish Vodo.
Sadow couldn't finish Ludo. When he'd just dropped Ludo to the floor