Naga Sadow and Dooku vs Exar Kun and Yoda

Theirs nothing to really point to Sadow being godly either 😬

We don't really see Sadow so anything uber impressive.

First fight: He uses slight TK to move some bricks, something ESB Luke was able to do, lol.

Hm...he created illusions..BUT he did it with hi sship, and you can say that he did it through the force but if he did than why would he need the ship in the first place?

He managed to blow up a star. Again, he did it with his ship, and if he just used the force than why did he need the ship in the firts place?

Sadow Naga does pretty much nothing in the ways of grand uber forceness.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kun was able to finish Vodo.
Sadow couldn't finish Ludo. When he'd just dropped Ludo to the floor

This is why I don't argue with you anymore lightsnake. What the HELL does A have to do with B? You brought up more irrelevant misdirection that neither hurts nor helps your argument, it was just a wasted post.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
Theirs nothing to really point to Sadow being godly either 😬

We don't really see Sadow so anything uber impressive.

First fight: He uses slight TK to move some bricks, something ESB Luke was able to do, lol.

Hm...he created illusions..BUT he did it with hi sship, and you can say that he did it through the force but if he did than why would he need the ship in the first place?

He managed to blow up a star. Again, he did it with his ship, and if he just used the force than why did he need the ship in the firts place?

Sadow Naga does pretty much nothing in the ways of grand uber forceness.

Nobody did anything that was uber except DE Sidious and NJO Luke. I guess you can count Ragnos' scepter in the uber category. The rest are the likes of Sadow who blew up stars and such.

Again he blew up starts with his ship. He can't exactly jump into his sphere in the middle of the match and blow up a star, so his "blowing up stars' is rather irrelevant isn't it?

While we see Yoda force pushing entire carriers, and padawans force pushing several Stardestroyers miles away.

First of all, it took a LOT of padawans to push a star destroyer away. Secondly he blew up a star with his ship, but it was the sith magic he created which tore the core out of the sun. Obviously Sadow cannot fly to the nearest sun like superman can he? Transportation is convenient. And I don't see how all of this talk about the Ancient sith only being cool with their amulets is logical. THe majority if not ALL of the attacks you see in TOTJ and KOTOR and afterwards, were derived from the ancient sith. A great example would be Nihilus' technique which was confirmed to come from the ancient sith. Did they use amulets, or did they do it without, what does it matter? The fact of the matter it is the ancient sith knew all of these techniques that were passed down and even forgotten, but they're suddenly only above average because you use the amulet to discredit them? As far as I remember, only DE Sidious and Luke created their own techniques. So the amulet theory shouldn't be a reason to think the ancient sith are just above average.

But the point is that wether or not the Anicent Sith could do the techniques w/o the items is questionable. If not then it doesn't really count as doing their "techniques". By your logic i can say that Sideous can blow up planets because he used the death star to do it.

No, you can't use that logic, because A=/B. The ancient sith poured their sith abilities into the amulets to channel them, hence Ragnos' scepter, amulet blasts, Nihilus' technique. The death star is NOT a force based attack, therefore it is irrelevant in this argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, you can't use that logic, because A=/B. The ancient sith poured their sith abilities into the amulets to channel them, hence Ragnos' scepter, amulet blasts, Nihilus' technique. The death star is NOT a force based attack, therefore it is irrelevant in this argument.

I suppose Exar Kun can trap life energy then without the sphere he built?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose Naga Sadow can cause solar flares without his ship?

Short answer: Hell no. If he did possess that kind of power, he could've crushed Kressh swiftly, and owned the invading Republic.

I suppose Naga Sadow can shoot Dragonball Z blasts out of his ass without his amulets?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose the first person to build a gun could poop out bullets then without a gun?

Short answer: Hell no.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
I suppose Exar Kun can trap life energy then without the sphere he built?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose Naga Sadow can cause solar flares without his ship?

Short answer: Hell no. If he did possess that kind of power, he could've crushed Kressh swiftly, and owned the invading Republic.

I suppose Naga Sadow can shoot Dragonball Z blasts out of his ass without his amulets?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose the first person to build a gun could poop out bullets then without a gun?

Short answer: Hell no.

I love the sig.

And that was basicly just a meaner version fo what I said 🙁

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
I suppose Exar Kun can trap life energy then without the sphere he built?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose Naga Sadow can cause solar flares without his ship?

Short answer: Hell no. If he did possess that kind of power, he could've crushed Kressh swiftly, and owned the invading Republic.

I suppose Naga Sadow can shoot Dragonball Z blasts out of his ass without his amulets?

Short answer: Hell no.

I suppose the first person to build a gun could poop out bullets then without a gun?

Short answer: Hell no.

Do those include abilities that were derived from the ancient sith and used later on in almost every instance from a sith lord? No, notice how the amulet abilities are the ones that AREN'T used anywhere else Sama..

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
I love the sig.

Thanks. Though the text isn't exactly how it's suppose to be in the actual version...I just can't find it. 😠

And that was basicly just a meaner version fo what I said 🙁

True, it's just more to the point, because this argument about what they can do without them is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Do those include abilities that were derived from the ancient sith and used later on in almost every instance from a sith lord?

What the hell are you talking about? Nihilus' abilities is just that - his ability, he doesn't need shit like ships, and spheres to use it. As well, 'derived from the Ancient Sith'? Said by who? Kreia? The fallible third party character?

No, notice how the amulet abilities are the ones that AREN'T used anywhere else Sama..

WTF are you talking about?

I clearly don't understand what either of these points were suppose to be, so if you could, explain in English or Japanese. Take your pick.

Komo sai wha?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

What the hell are you talking about? Nihilus' abilities is just that - his ability, he doesn't need shit like ships, and spheres to use it. As well, 'derived from the Ancient Sith'? Said by who? Kreia? The fallible third party character?

WTF are you talking about?

I clearly don't understand what either of these points were suppose to be, so if you could, explain in English or Japanese. Take your pick. [/B]

If I knew Japanese I would.. Let's get something straight, you can claim that Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character when she mentions Revan, or the Exile, or who's better. But Kreia is a powerful Sith/Jedi Master who has a LOT of knowledge and history, so she is credible when discussing certain things. Unless of course by your fallible 3rd party, she's just making shit up in regards to Sadow, Ragnos Hord, and Pall, on Korriban. Now Sama, how is it that she has that knowledge, and seems to be the only one that does? Could it mean that she is more knowledgable in the history of the ancient sith? Then that would mean that she is a credible source in terms of certain things, certain abilities that derive from the ancient sith.

My other point is, you claim that ancient sith couldn't do certain things without the amulets, and I agree with you in regards to an amulet blast or blowing up the sun. But most, if not all the abilities later sith lords use, are derived from the ancient sith. So what I'm saying is, they know the techniques, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to even create them through the amulets. And if you are still convinced Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character in terms of Nihilus ability, please see Ragnos' scepter, since it does EXACTLY what Nihilus did.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If I knew Japanese I would.. Let's get something straight, you can claim that Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character when she mentions Revan, or the Exile, or who's better.

Kreia is a known liar, I can call her a fallible third party character anytime I please. Of course, that's only since she is.

But Kreia is a powerful Sith/Jedi Master

Irrelevant.

who has a LOT of knowledge and history, so she is credible when discussing certain things.

Tell me exactly how she knows Nihilus' technique came from the Ancient Sith? Tell me how she says "there is no defense" for it, but the Exile defended against it?

Unless of course by your fallible 3rd party, she's just making shit up in regards to Sadow, Ragnos Hord, and Pall, on Korriban.

No, she's a historian. Now tell me, how she knows about the Ancient Sith techniques exactly? Does Odan Urr know of all the Sith techniques, too then? Does Ood?

Better question: what the hell does this have to do with anything?

Now Sama, how is it that she has that knowledge, and seems to be the only one that does? Could it mean that she is more knowledgable in the history of the ancient sith? Then that would mean that she is a credible source in terms of certain things, certain abilities that derive from the ancient sith.

Better question: what the hell does this have to do with anything?

What does Kreia knowing that Nihilus' ability was derived from the Ancient Sith mean at all? The Ancient Sith don't do what Nihilus' does, as they apparently became, y'know, extinct. I suppose for having all these great "aces", it didn't save them from getting wiped off the galaxy - now did it?

My other point is, you claim that ancient sith couldn't do certain things without the amulets, and I agree with you in regards to an amulet blast or blowing up the sun.

That's really all we've seen the amulet do: shoot out DBZ blasts, project messages, and destroy spirits. All we've seen the ship do is: blow up stars, and move around.

That's basically all we even see the Ancient Sith do (and we don't even see what they do with amulets) aside from getting pwned by a single brick.

But most, if not all the abilities later sith lords use, are derived from the ancient sith.

So the Ancient Sith know all Darkside techniques? Hell no they don't.

So what I'm saying is, they know the techniques, otherwise they wouldn't have been able to even create them through the amulets.

That makes about 0% sense. They know techniques, and because they do they "create them through the amulets"? That sentence really doesn't make sense.

Anyways, we've only seen the amulet do three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

Now tell me - what the f*ck do any of those things have to do with "techniques"? Or the better question: what did that statement even mean?

And if you are still convinced Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character in terms of Nihilus ability, please see Ragnos' scepter, since it does EXACTLY what Nihilus did.

What? Raise temples? If, in fact, that's the only thing that it was derived from (Ancient Sith technology) it's really irrelevant. As well, what the hell are we even arguing - we're getting off topic:

How is anything we've seen Sadow do going to stop Exar Kun's lightsaber from slicing him in half?

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Tell me exactly how she knows Nihilus' technique came from the Ancient Sith? Tell me how she says "there is no defense" for it, but the Exile defended against it?

Well gee Sama, Kreia seemed to know all about the ancient sith including Ragnos, Hord, Pall, Sadow, and Kressh, but all of a sudden when she describes a technique derived from the ancient sith(something she at LEAST has SOME knowledge on, at the very least), she's a liar? Hmmm..

No, she's a historian. Now tell me, how she knows about the Ancient Sith techniques exactly? Does Odan Urr know of all the Sith techniques, too then? Does Ood?

What? I'm guessing you're making a point that this is irrelevant, but in any case, the fact that she knows the technique and claims that it came from the ancient sith, added with the fact that Ragnos' scepter just that, means the technique derived from the ancient sith, and so did the majority(if not all) of the techniques the sith have learned, including Kun. Unless of course Kun invented his own force based stuff. My point is you sit there and say " well the ancient sith are nothing or average because they used amulets". My point is it is irrelevant that they use amulets because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else, and the fact that all these uber techniques came from the ancient sith should say something about their power.

What does Kreia knowing that Nihilus' ability was derived from the Ancient Sith mean at all? The Ancient Sith don't do what Nihilus' does, as they apparently became, y'know, extinct. I suppose for having all these great "aces", it didn't save them from getting wiped off the galaxy - now did it?

So the Ancient Sith know all Darkside techniques? Hell no they don't.

How is anything we've seen Sadow do going to stop Exar Kun's lightsaber from slicing him in half?

You're assuming that Kun is a better duelist. How conclusive is that? I can also say that the swords weigh a great amount and the fact that Sadow can swing them as fast as he does (which does leave some traces in GAOTS), means that every swing he would be pushing Kun back, or rather Kun would be flying back, considering the ancient sith had incredible physical strength.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Well gee Sama, Kreia seemed to know all about the ancient sith including Ragnos, Hord, Pall, Sadow, and Kressh, but all of a sudden when she describes a technique derived from the ancient sith(something she at LEAST has SOME knowledge on, at the very least), she's a liar? Hmmm..

Well, Sexy, let's see: you've yet to tell me how there was a defense for it.

And anyways, as I've stated: what does this have to do with anything? We've never seen the Ancient Sith do anything like Nihilus has (without use of technology), and if, in fact, they did know it - they'd wipe themselves to extinction since it's natural, and apparently no defense other than being a wound in the Force. On top of the fact, they would've pwned the Republic. But - as I've said - they didn't, and were killed or rather wiped off the face of the galaxy. And, still this is irrelevant because Sadow doesn't possess Ragnos' sceptor.

What? I'm guessing you're making a point that this is irrelevant, but in any case,

You're so ridiculous, and ignorant. Your entire argument is based off things we:

1.) Don't know.
2.) Never see.
3.) Know are ridiculous.

And "guessing" it's irrelevant? Oh god, I contribute more to this forum than you ever have. I present more logical arguments in a single thread than you have your entire posting history, and I also can tear anything you give to me to shreds. If anyone should be claiming that an argument is irrelevant, it should be me...tell me again - what does Nihilus' technique being derived from the Ancient Sith have to do with anything?

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses.

Which was to be demonstrated.

the fact that she knows the technique and claims that it came from the ancient sith, added with the fact that Ragnos' scepter just that, means the technique derived from the ancient sith, and so did the majority(if not all) of the techniques the sith have learned, including Kun.

So Marka Ragnos knew Force lightning? He knew Force choke? No, you can't say any of those Ancient Sith have any of those abilities at all. How do you know they weren't derived from the first Dark Jedi, hm? Oh? You don't? I figured as much.

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we [i]know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses![/i]

That applies for all techniques said to be "derived" from the Ancient Sith.

And really, can you say 'irrelevant'? Simply because Marka Ragnos' sceptor does what Nihilus can do, doesn't mean Marka Ragnos can do it too (without his scepter), or any other Ancient Sith. So, basically, you're arguing irrelevant bullshit that doesn't even matter in this fight.

Unless of course Kun invented his own force based stuff. My point is you sit there and say " well the ancient sith are nothing or average because they used amulets".

Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology. Sadow doesn't have his ship in this fight, Sadow has his amulets, and so does Kun? What the f*ck is your point exactly, Sexy? You haven't even proved how Exar Kun or Yoda is going to lose to Sadow.

What the f*ck does Ragnos' sceptor (not Sadow's) have to do with anything in this fight? What the f*ck does Sadow's ship have to do with anything in this fight?

Short answer: Nothing. Sadow cannot shoot beams out of his ass, and he cannot create solar manipulations without his ship. So, as I've been saying all along, how is any of this relevant?

We cannot assume Sadow has Force lightning, we cannot assume he has Force whatever, whatever because he hasn't shown us it. And it's illogical to assume such, because there could be an explanation for it.

My point is it is irrelevant that they use amulets because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else, and the fact that all these uber techniques came from the ancient sith should say something about their power.

What are you talking about? It's completely relevant.

Let me explain this to you easy,

Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship

So, you saying "z0mg h3's ub3r p0werfu1 b3caus3 h3 cr3ated it!" is stupid as hell to assume. And what the hell

"because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else"

What exactly does this statement say? I mean, I went to a bilingual school for English and Japanese. I even know Mandarin, yet surprisingly I cannot understand gibberish.

I'll just copy and paste about the amulets only doing three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

They do not hold anymore "techniques", the amulets do those three things. The amulets do not produce Force lightning, they do not Force grip people. The only thing Sadow can use is the blasts, which we've only seen demonstrated by Exar anyways.

Now, I'm going to move onto my next point:

Even if "all/most" Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith (and that's bullshit anyways, but we'll work with it) that doesn't mean jack really. Simply because they created them, they are the best at those techniques? The most powerful at using them? No.

It could be the equivalent to how our world works: Someone created a single shot gun ages ago, now today you see we've produce machine guns, and automatic weapons, etc. So, actually it could be the Ancient Sith only worked at the beginnings (as it would seem since it says "derived"😉, ergo it doesn't mean they are the most powerful at using them.

Also, I'd like you to prove that all Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith, since you seem so fond on doing it.

Irrelevant, and a typical lightsnake quote.

Irrelevant, and a typical tdtd quote. Also, it wasn't irrelevant, you dolt. If you understood the question, possibly you'd know that.

Well let me counter that one Sama.

You can try, Sexy, but as usual - it will just be countered again, and slaughtered by yours truly.

Sidious is the most uber sith lord in history, yet he got beat by a machine the first time, and by 2 1/2 people the second time? Wow... What's your point.

LOL! That was your counter? Firstly, let me say that I wasn't aware Sidious could just walk around draining people, shoot laser beams out of his ass, and [in ROTJ] knew all Darkside techniques.

Secondly, he didn't "get beat by a machine". I guess you didn't watch ROTJ? He was busy owning Luke, while his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years betrayed him, and caught him off guard. This differs from the Ancient Sith because they were IN. A. WAR. They were prepared, and knew what was coming.

Thirdly, he was only beaten when the combined powers of Luke Skywalker (the most powerful being in Star Wars), Leia, and her fetus used their strength to shield Sidious from the Darkside or something like that, and thus he was left unable to control the storm and it owned him.

Fourth, you can quit the downplaying, and bad logic - it's not helping.

I attribute the fall of sith not to their lack of abilities, but to their lack of intelligence and common sense,

Oh god, can we say "contradiction" - if they aren't intelligent how the f*ck did they "develop all Darkside techniques"? I guess they are just a primitive race of imbeciles then, eh? It takes intelligence to develop techniques. They don't just wave their hands around, and a new technique comes to them.

to the fact that Sadow took the majority of an unprepared sith empire, and tried to destroy the vastly superior Republic. His stupidity proved the downfall of the sith empire, not the sith's force abilities, so your comment wasn't relevant.

Again:

Oh god, can we say "contradiction" - if they aren't intelligent how the f*ck did they "develop all Darkside techniques"? I guess they are just a primitive race of imbeciles then, eh? It takes intelligence to develop techniques. They don't just wave their hands around, and a new technique comes to them.

Can you tell me of any darkside techniques that DIDNT derive from them with the exception of the force storm which did derive from them but was perfected by Sidious? hmm..

I shouldn't have to tell you which didn't because we don't know. God damn this is an easy argument.

Better question: can you tell me which techniques did come from the Ancient Sith? Then also tell me which Sith knew them, and if they could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost among the ages?

You've yet to specify which techniques came from them, so I really shouldn't have to tell you which didn't as it's up to you to do that. You sure as hell know logic, eh?

You're assuming that Kun is a better duelist. How conclusive is that?

Well, you're assuming that Sadow is more powerful. How conclusive is that? Not very.

As well, I might as well point out that I'm "assuming" such based on what we have seen from both parties. Exar Kun has demonstrated more skill in melee combat than Sadow, he's also demonstrated more Force abilities than Sadow, too. I'm "assuming" my stuff based on what we see, and logical deduction. Based on those two things - Exar has shown his worth in combat ability, Sadow has not.

Which was to be demonstrated.

I can also say that the swords weigh a great amount and the fact that Sadow can swing them as fast as he does (which does leave some traces in GAOTS),

Okay? And I can also say that Exar Kun leaves traces with his lightsaber. As I've been trying to say throughout this entire discussion: your point?

Oh. How could I forget, you're going to say "z0mg sw0rd is heavi3r"! Yes, and I'll say - so what? A fencer using a rapier is capable of owning an opponent armed with a zweihander.

means that every swing he would be pushing Kun back, or rather Kun would be flying back, considering the ancient sith had incredible physical strength.

Exar Kun also increases "incredible physical strength" - crushing twice through Vodo's stick which was "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!". Granted the first time, he used two. But on the second time, he used one side of his lightsaber - as it'd be impossible to use two anyways.

Exar Kun also is capable of picking up the Chancellor of the Senate with one hand by the head, and pushing Sylvar's head in with one hand, too.

And, as usual, your argument [here] fails.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Tell me exactly how she knows Nihilus' technique came from the Ancient Sith? Tell me how she says "there is no defense" for it, but the Exile defended against it?

Excuse me Sama. She knows that the technique comes from the Ancient Sith because Nihilus "learned" it at Malachor V - a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge. And the Exile resisted the effect because of his/her nature as "wound in the force" - not because he / she had a real "defence" (useable skill) against it.

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

The same blasts ? Maybe not. Still you can see Aleema Keto instakilling some minion with a Sith Magic attack that seems to desintegrate the victim - without using an amulet. And if some minor Sith Witch can do that I don't have any doubt that an Ancient Sith can pull that off.

Aside of this I don't even know why people are discussing if Kun is greater than Sadow. Anderson seems to think that Kun is more powerful than the Ancient Sith (as he basically indirectly stated when saying that, to find out who's the strongest Sith ever you have to put up Kun against Sidious). Also Kun did simply had a greater knowledge base then Sadow since he had all Sadow did knew + other stuff (from Nadd, from Ossus, from his own Jedi training) and possibly a greater force potential.

Hell...I don't even know why you are still debating here when - until now - basically all have agreed that (worst case for Yoda and Kun) this would end with Sadow vs Kun and Yoda which Sadow would lose. The thread is basically solved...

Well enough then, Nai.

Case closed.