Naga Sadow and Dooku vs Exar Kun and Yoda

And, Sexy, I'm still waiting for your reply on this:

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Well, Sexy, let's see: you've yet to tell me how there was a defense for it.

And anyways, as I've stated: what does this have to do with anything? We've never seen the Ancient Sith do anything like Nihilus has (without use of technology), and if, in fact, they did know it - they'd wipe themselves to extinction since it's natural, and apparently no defense other than being a wound in the Force. On top of the fact, they would've pwned the Republic. But - as I've said - they didn't, and were [b]killed or rather wiped off the face of the galaxy. And, still this is irrelevant because Sadow doesn't possess Ragnos' sceptor.

You're so ridiculous, and ignorant. Your entire argument is based off things we:

1.) Don't know.
2.) Never see.
3.) Know are ridiculous.

And "guessing" it's irrelevant? Oh god, I contribute more to this forum than you ever have. I present more logical arguments in a single thread than you have your entire posting history, and I also can tear anything you give to me to shreds. If anyone should be claiming that an argument is irrelevant, it should be me...tell me again - what does Nihilus' technique being derived from the Ancient Sith have to do with anything?

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses.

Which was to be demonstrated.

So Marka Ragnos knew Force lightning? He knew Force choke? No, you can't say any of those Ancient Sith have any of those abilities at all. How do you know they weren't derived from the first Dark Jedi, hm? Oh? You don't? I figured as much.

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we [i]know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses![/i]

That applies for all techniques said to be "derived" from the Ancient Sith.

And really, can you say 'irrelevant'? Simply because Marka Ragnos' sceptor does what Nihilus can do, doesn't mean Marka Ragnos can do it too (without his scepter), or any other Ancient Sith. So, basically, you're arguing irrelevant bullshit that doesn't even matter in this fight.

Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology. Sadow doesn't have his ship in this fight, Sadow has his amulets, and so does Kun? What the f*ck is your point exactly, Sexy? You haven't even proved how Exar Kun or Yoda is going to lose to Sadow.

What the f*ck does Ragnos' sceptor (not Sadow's) have to do with anything in this fight? What the f*ck does Sadow's ship have to do with anything in this fight?

Short answer: Nothing. Sadow cannot shoot beams out of his ass, and he cannot create solar manipulations without his ship. So, as I've been saying all along, how is any of this relevant?

We cannot assume Sadow has Force lightning, we cannot assume he has Force whatever, whatever because he hasn't shown us it. And it's illogical to assume such, because there could be an explanation for it.

What are you talking about? It's completely relevant.

Let me explain this to you easy,

Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship

So, you saying "z0mg h3's ub3r p0werfu1 b3caus3 h3 cr3ated it!" is stupid as hell to assume. And what the hell

"because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else"

What exactly does this statement say? I mean, I went to a bilingual school for English and Japanese. I even know Mandarin, yet surprisingly I cannot understand gibberish.

I'll just copy and paste about the amulets only doing three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

They do not hold anymore "techniques", the amulets do those three things. The amulets do not produce Force lightning, they do not Force grip people. The only thing Sadow can use is the blasts, which we've only seen demonstrated by Exar anyways.

Now, I'm going to move onto my next point:

Even if "all/most" Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith (and that's bullshit anyways, but we'll work with it) that doesn't mean jack really. Simply because they created them, they are the best at those techniques? The most powerful at using them? No.

It could be the equivalent to how our world works: Someone created a single shot gun ages ago, now today you see we've produce machine guns, and automatic weapons, etc. So, actually it could be the Ancient Sith only worked at the beginnings (as it would seem since it says "derived"😉, ergo it doesn't mean they are the most powerful at using them.

Also, I'd like you to prove that all Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith, since you seem so fond on doing it.

Irrelevant, and a typical tdtd quote. Also, it wasn't irrelevant, you dolt. If you understood the question, possibly you'd know that.

You can try, Sexy, but as usual - it will just be countered again, and slaughtered by yours truly.

LOL! That was your counter? Firstly, let me say that I wasn't aware Sidious could just walk around draining people, shoot laser beams out of his ass, and [in ROTJ] knew all Darkside techniques.

Secondly, he didn't "get beat by a machine". I guess you didn't watch ROTJ? He was busy owning Luke, while his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years betrayed him, and caught him off guard. This differs from the Ancient Sith because they were IN. A. WAR. They were prepared, and knew what was coming.

Thirdly, he was only beaten when the combined powers of Luke Skywalker (the most powerful being in Star Wars), Leia, and her fetus used their strength to shield Sidious from the Darkside or something like that, and thus he was left unable to control the storm and it owned him.

Fourth, you can quit the downplaying, and bad logic - it's not helping.

Oh god, can we say "contradiction" - if they aren't intelligent how the f*ck did they "develop all Darkside techniques"? I guess they are just a primitive race of imbeciles then, eh? It takes intelligence to develop techniques. They don't just wave their hands around, and a new technique comes to them.

Again:

I shouldn't have to tell you which didn't because we don't know. God damn this is an easy argument.

Better question: can you tell me which techniques did come from the Ancient Sith? Then also tell me which Sith knew them, and if they could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost among the ages?

You've yet to specify which techniques came from them, so I really shouldn't have to tell you which didn't as it's up to you to do that. You sure as hell know logic, eh? [/B]

'Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship'

Yes, he is. He displays this in a holocron in DLOTS. I love how people forget this fact.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
As is everything we're arguing.

Illogical assumption? Do you need to be reminded of what you said every post? Well, here it is. And everyone agrees - you commit ad hominem.

I'm not concerned with everyone, I'm not arguing with everyone, i'm arguing with you. Just because everybody says it doesn't make it true, now please show me where I am committing ad hominem here and how I think I'm the king shit? Not to mention, while we're pointing out logical fallacies, should I point out appeal to majority?

Actually, it was completely relevant. You just don't accept anything that puts a negative light on your side.

Your assumption, nothing more. I could possibly say the same thing for you.

[Sorry, there's a difference as usual. Sadow didn't conquer the Republic, there's nothing that says Exar didn't master Sith alchemy and magic. On the contrary, it would seem he did as he created avians, terentateks, "super" Massassi, and so on.

I'm sorry, but you stated that because Kun said he was going to do something, that he did. So I'm making yet another counter argument about how any character in the SW galaxy can say he is going to do something and not do it, it is completely relevant. And do I have to explain to you that he studied Sadow's teachings, and part of sith alchemy was altering beasts and what not. So Kun reading Sadow's teachings on sith alchemy and alteration, and then creating a beast from those teachings, says absolutely nothing of it being HIS invention, sorry.

Considering the scale of which he did it, it would seem he did master it. And if you are acknowledging he mastered an "aspect" of it, why not assume he mastered everything Sadow had?

Because we don't know how much of Sadow's teachings he studied, and how much he had? So why would it be logical to assume he learned everything because he learned technique X?

Joruus never actually performed the action. He'd only thought he'd be able to. As well, it required his active concentration as opposed to Kun was able to control the Chancellor, move about freely, and strike down Vodo while still having the Senate under his control.

Excuse me? Joruus DID control an entire fleet, he did it on a much GRANDER scale. What is your point about Kun moving around freely? Notice it was a different technique, obviously Joruus' wasn't a sith spell, but the point was that someone did what Kun did on a much grander scale, and yet it's not logical to assume that he>Kun.

Damn, you really can't read can you:

Damn, you really are getting riled up. Perhaps instead of saying that I insult people and think I'm the king shit, you should take a look at your random angry comments, since I have made virtually none towards you?

Sadly, there's only two techniques that are said to derive from the Ancient Sith, and you were saying that "all, if not most, come from the Ancients"...so, how does two techniques having roots from the Ancient Sith mean they created/knew them all?

Maybe YOU should learn how to read, because I never said they created them all. But please, tell me what techniques came from elsewhere?

"Derived" could mean simply just having stemmed from, ergo later generations could've improved on them. And there's only two that came from them definitely, so again what does that mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean they created all or even most of the techniques.

You're right, I never said they created them all, AGAIN, but show me where the rest of the techniques came from. Notice in my earlier thread how the "most powerful" techniques DID originate from the ancient sith, as I have proven.

Wow, can you answer the actual point instead of skirting off in a different direction perhaps? I'd appreciate it. And, when did I say they were "nothing" without their amulets? Oh? I didn't? Okay, quit making shit up then.

Calm the **** down.

[i]Okay, the [b]Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology.

That's your opinion on it, nothing more. Mine is they were very impressive because they created techniques that maybe 1-2 people were able to use after them, thousands of years later. You have your opinion I have mine, end of story..

The only one apparently is shooting beams out of your ass.

Truly mature.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship'

Yes, he is. He displays this in a holocron in DLOTS. I love how people forget this fact.

Sama's point is irrelevant and as lightsnake stated, they made Sadow look human too, so as much as I dislike it, he does have a point.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship'

Yes, he is. He displays this in a holocron in DLOTS. I love how people forget this fact.

Oh! How could I forget! You mean this:

The Dena rii Nova, which he used "the remaining power of the ship" on:

I love how people don't know jack shit about what they are talking about.

Nebaris I suggest you reread the first page of DLOTS

The thing is, he clasps his hand and it blows up. He doesn't use the ship.

I argued that point too Nebaris but it is very clear that even though he DID create the ability using sith magic, he uses his ship as the intermediary.

So, Aleema is just as powerful as Sadow? She used the ship to destroy two suns.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
So, Aleema is just as powerful as Sadow? She used the ship to destroy two suns.

No, that's not a good example, because Sadow's ship used HIS sith magic, Aleema used HIS sith magic, so your point is moot.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
So, Aleema is just as powerful as Sadow? She used the ship to destroy two suns.

And Sadow used his hands... Your point being?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
And Sadow used his hands... Your point being?

Sadow DIDNT use his hands, I've already been proven wrong on that. Sadow used sith technology. You're telling me that if Sadow could use his hands, he would have used those crystals in GAOTS? The point has been defeated Nebaris..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm not concerned with everyone, I'm not arguing with everyone, i'm arguing with you. Just because everybody says it doesn't make it true, now please show me where I am committing ad hominem here and how I think I'm the king shit? Not to mention, while we're pointing out logical fallacies, should I point out appeal to majority?

You could point out argumentum ad populum, but I don't really see why, because it wouldn't be justified. You did personally attack Lightsnake. In almost every post of Yoda vs. Exar Kun - anyone who reads that can tell. It is established, you do substitute personal attacks for an argument. I'm just saying that you seem so fond on saying "fallacy", "irrelevant misdirection", etc. you need to realize you also commit fallacies, and you need to learn when to use them.

I'm sorry, but you stated that because Kun said he was going to do something, that he did. So I'm making yet another counter argument about how any character in the SW galaxy can say he is going to do something and not do it, it is completely relevant. And do I have to explain to you that he studied Sadow's teachings, and part of sith alchemy was altering beasts and what not. So Kun reading Sadow's teachings on sith alchemy and alteration, and then creating a beast from those teachings, says absolutely nothing of it being HIS invention, sorry.

1.) That wasn't the only singular reason I stated he did master it, so stop treating it like so.

2.) It's not relevant at all. If we have deductions that they actual did do whatever they were set out to do, then you can assume they did.

3.) Just because Sith alchemy was about creating beasts, and making alterations and such doesn't mean that Exar Kun didn't make new creations. As it would seem, he did: "creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks". Also, the terentatek are described as "Exar Kun's alchemically birthed monstrosities".

Because we don't know how much of Sadow's teachings he studied, and how much he had? So why would it be logical to assume he learned everything because he learned technique X?

There was a trove of Sith scrolls, equipment, and even Sadow's ship underneath the temple. He had studied all of Sadow's personal notes, and scrolls among other various things left there. He'd also had studied under Freedon Nadd's spirit as well, and plundered some scrolls.

Excuse me? Joruus DID control an entire fleet, he did it on a much GRANDER scale. What is your point about Kun moving around freely? Notice it was a different technique, obviously Joruus' wasn't a sith spell, but the point was that someone did what Kun did on a much grander scale, and yet it's not logical to assume that he>Kun.

And, as I bolded: what exactly did this point have to do with anything then? We're arguing about Exar Kun mastering Sith magic, not C'baoth, a lunatic, controlling an entire fleet using a different technique.

Maybe YOU should learn how to read, because I never said they created them all. But please, tell me what techniques came from elsewhere?

Let me show you what you said, and what it implies:

Can you tell me of any darkside techniques that DIDNT derive from them with the exception of the force storm which did derive from them but was perfected by Sidious? hmm..

In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this implies that you think all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm.

And I already told you which techniques. There's about five or so from the Jedi Knight: Dark Forces series, Lord Kaan's Thought Bomb, and Rokur Gepta's "torture by chagrin".

On top of that, as I've said before, why couldn't the first Dark Jedi have created the other techniques? The Legions of Lettow as well? Simply because two derived from the Ancient Sith doesn't mean anymore do.

You're right, I never said they created them all, AGAIN, but show me where the rest of the techniques came from. Notice in my earlier thread how the "most powerful" techniques DID originate from the ancient sith, as I have proven.

See above, and "derive" could just as easily mean that they only partially started the techniques, and didn't even come close to: a) mastering them, b) even becoming proficient in them. As well, it could've been Ancient Sith from 7,000 BBY and lost thereafter.

Also, I shouldn't have to tell you where the "rest" came from. Simply put: we don't know, ergo it could've been Legions of Lettow/Dark Jedi or Ancient Sith. So, quit asking me to "prove" unknown things.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama [/i]
You could point out argumentum ad populum, but I don't really see why, because it wouldn't be justified. You did personally attack Lightsnake. In almost every post of Yoda vs. Exar Kun - anyone who reads that can tell. It is established, you do substitute personal attacks for an argument. I'm just saying that you seem so fond on saying "fallacy", "irrelevant misdirection", etc. you need to realize you also commit fallacies, and you need to learn when to use them.

I never said I don't commit fallacies, I'm not perfect, nor do I claim to be. I have nothing against him, but in my opinion he lacks debating skills so I try to point them out as best I can to help the guy. Obviously I sometimes insult him mistakenly but it's not fully intentional.

2.) It's not relevant at all. If we have deductions that they actual did do whatever they were set out to do, then you can assume they did.

It's irrelevant in the sense that just because someone sets out to do something, doesn't mean he does, so why should Kun be the exception? We've seen MANY many cases of this throughout the SW galaxies. Just because I say I'm going to get into Harvard Law, doesn't mean I will.

3.) Just because Sith alchemy was about creating beasts, and making alterations and such doesn't mean that Exar Kun didn't make new creations. As it would seem, he did: "creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks". Also, the terentatek are described as "Exar Kun's alchemically birthed monstrosities".

Where are the terentatek's described as such? I read something earlier about NEC being incorrect or what not, but my point is Kun read Sadow's teachings and from THAT he created beasts, but that in no way means he invented new ones(Unless the NEC states so and they aren't accidentally wrong).

There was a trove of Sith scrolls, equipment, and even Sadow's ship underneath the temple. He had studied all of Sadow's personal notes, and scrolls among other various things left there. He'd also had studied under Freedon Nadd's spirit as well, and plundered some scrolls.

You're right, but can you quantify that according to his power, and according to the possibility of him knowing more than Sadow? Again, I think(think being the operative word), that it is more logical that Sadow, who lived during the apex of sith power and grandeur, studied more and knew more than Kun did in his 1 year of studying. Now of course you can counter that by saying "prove how long Sadow studied". Unfortunately I cannot but it is MORE than logical to state Sadow has learned Sith magic from great alchemists such as Simus, for OVER a year.

And, as I bolded: what exactly did this point have to do with anything then? We're arguing about Exar Kun mastering Sith magic, not C'baoth, a lunatic, controlling an entire fleet using a different technique.

You were trying to prove a point I guess as to why Kun could be superior to Sadow, with that particular feat. I was responding with the fact that Joruus did the same thing on a greater scale, but he is an average Jedi Master.

Let me show you what you said, and what it implies:

Can you tell me of any darkside techniques that DIDNT derive from them [b]with the exception of the force storm which did derive from them but was perfected by Sidious? hmm..

In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this implies that you think all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm.

And I already told you which techniques. There's about five or so from the Jedi Knight: Dark Forces series, Lord Kaan's Thought Bomb, and Rokur Gepta's "torture by chagrin".

On top of that, as I've said before, why couldn't the first Dark Jedi have created the other techniques? The Legions of Lettow as well? Simply because two derived from the Ancient Sith doesn't mean anymore do.

I might have implied all the techniques came from them but I never stated. They do have an advantage of being not only one of the first ones, but obviously the greatest in terms of sith and dark side knowledge/power, so it's no wonder most of the techniques came from them. I'm sure some of techniques didn't come from them but the most powerful ones did, aside from the thought bomb I guess, and I am VERY curious to know where Kaan and his troops got the idea for this technique. And as I said, if you're talking about the first dark jedi, as in the Legions of Lettow, we have no knowledge of anything they did, not to mention they don't count as the "Ancient Sith". But we do know that the likes of Ragnos knew some of these powers.

See above, and "derive" could just as easily mean that they only partially started the techniques, and didn't even come close to: a) mastering them, b) even becoming proficient in them. As well, it could've been Ancient Sith from 7,000 BBY and lost thereafter.

What do you mean that derived means they could partially know the techniques? What do you mean partially? Judging by Ragnos' scepter, it seems the technique was WELL known. You're right it COULD mean everything that you just said, but honestly, it is a LOT more logical to assume it was from the ancient sith, considering the golden age was the apex of sith power/knowledge. That IS logical in my opinion.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
It's irrelevant in the sense that just because someone sets out to do something, doesn't mean he does, so why should Kun be the exception? We've seen MANY many cases of this throughout the SW galaxies. Just because I say I'm going to get into Harvard Law, doesn't mean I will.

On Kun's knowledge: What you seem to forget is that Kun basically got his hands on a fully developed knowledge base. Hence arguing that he can't learn all Sadow did is pretty stupid. Let me put it like this: It took human scientists 2300 years to come from the "idea" of the existance of atoms to the proof that they exist. Then it took them another 40 years to figure out that atoms a fissionable.
Today I can gain the same knowledge in less than 10 seconds.

Talking about Kun's situation: Sadow possibly needed years to figure out how to create his amulets. Kun figured out how to use them in the matter of seconds. So Sadow probably had a greater "theoretical" knowledge about the amulets but still he can't use them "better" as Kun because they just do what they do. That somebody has the know-how to build a rifle doesn't mean he's an excellent shooter.

Where are the terentatek's described as such? I read something earlier about NEC being incorrect or what not, but my point is Kun read Sadow's teachings and from THAT he created beasts, but that in no way means he invented new ones(Unless the NEC states so and they aren't accidentally wrong).

How is that relevant ? Sadow seems to have done some experiments with Sith Alchemy and then Kun discovered the results of said experiments and could have used them. This means again: It probably took Sadow years to figure out how to create a Sith wyrm - but Kun could have learned how to do it in the matter of minutes because he had the results of Sadow's work.

You're right, but can you quantify that according to his power, and according to the possibility of him knowing more than Sadow? Again, I think(think being the operative word), that it is more logical that Sadow, who lived during the apex of sith power and grandeur, studied more and knew more than Kun did in his 1 year of studying. Now of course you can counter that by saying "prove how long Sadow studied". Unfortunately I cannot but it is MORE than logical to state Sadow has learned Sith magic from great alchemists such as Simus, for OVER a year.

See above. Both Kun (and the narrator) state that Kun has more knowledge at hand than he could ever use. When confronting Ulic and Aleema he even says he has learned "everything" (meaning everything that Nadd and Sadow left behind). And based on that facts it's only logical to assume that he had more knowledge than Sadow and Nadd.

I might have implied all the techniques came from them but I never stated. They do have an advantage of being not only one of the first ones, but obviously the greatest in terms of sith and dark side knowledge/power, so it's no wonder most of the techniques came from them. I'm sure some of techniques didn't come from them but the most powerful ones did, aside from the thought bomb I guess, and I am VERY curious to know where Kaan and his troops got the idea for this technique.

Older doesn't mean better. Most powerful ? Even if the knowledge base came from them the "most powerful" uses of the force did clearly not happen in the time of the Ancients.

What do you mean that derived means they could partially know the techniques? What do you mean partially? Judging by Ragnos' scepter, it seems the technique was WELL known.

...to Ragnos...

Originally posted by Borbarad [/i]
[B]On Kun's knowledge: What you seem to forget is that Kun basically got his hands on a fully developed knowledge base. Hence arguing that he can't learn all Sadow did is pretty stupid. Let me put it like this: It took human scientists 2300 years to come from the "idea" of the existance of atoms to the proof that they exist. Then it took them another 40 years to figure out that atoms a fissionable.
Today I can gain the same knowledge in less than 10 seconds.

Nobody said he can't learn it Nai, I said it was inconclusive, especially just because he said he would. Obviously if Sadow had to figure it out by himself it would take him longer than if Kun just used Sadow's notes.

Talking about Kun's situation: Sadow possibly needed years to figure out how to create his amulets. Kun figured out how to use them in the matter of seconds. So Sadow probably had a greater "theoretical" knowledge about the amulets but still he can't use them "better" as Kun because they just do what they do. That somebody has the know-how to build a rifle doesn't mean he's an excellent shooter.

possibly, but can you say Kun learned to use it to the degree its builder can? Wouldn't it be logical to say that no matter how quickly Kun mastered it, the inventor would always know something more about it, or have a better ability to use it?

How is that relevant ? Sadow seems to have done some experiments with Sith Alchemy and then Kun discovered the results of said experiments and could have used them. This means again: It probably took Sadow years to figure out how to create a Sith wyrm - but Kun could have learned how to do it in the matter of minutes because he had the results of Sadow's work.

How does this entail him "inventing" these beasts and not simply creating using someone else's work?

See above. Both Kun (and the narrator) state that Kun has more knowledge at hand than he could ever use. When confronting Ulic and Aleema he even says he has learned "everything" (meaning everything that Nadd and Sadow left behind). And based on that facts it's only logical to assume that he had more knowledge than Sadow and Nadd.

Ok Nai, KUN states that he has more knowledge than he would ever use, now. Did he use that knowledge, if so how much? And how in the world is it logical to assume Kun had more knowledge than Sadow? Kun had Sadow's knowledge, Sadow had Sadow's knowledge. Kun had Nadd's knowledge, and who trained Nadd? Sadow. And again Sadow learned in the apex of sith power so I would think it's more logical to assume that as an ancient sith he had MORE knowledge than Kun just learning from his work, and Nadd. Also, I could sit here and take online classes, but I will NEVER learn as much as I will from that teacher if I sat in a classroom.

Older doesn't mean better. Most powerful ? Even if the knowledge base came from them the "most powerful" uses of the force did clearly not happen in the time of the Ancients.
...to Ragnos...

Are you saying it's logical to assume that in the golden age of the sith, only RAGNOS knew this power?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nobody said he can't learn it Nai, I said it was inconclusive, especially just because he said he would. Obviously if Sadow had to figure it out by himself it would take him longer than if Kun just used Sadow's notes.

The point is it wasn't inconclusive because the "he would study..." refered to the stuff he got on Ossus. This statement has no effect on the stuff he got from his own Jedi training, from Nadd and from Sadow before...

possibly, but can you say Kun learned to use it to the degree its builder can? Wouldn't it be logical to say that no matter how quickly Kun mastered it, the inventor would always know something more about it, or have a better ability to use it?

No, because Sadow left his entire knowledge behind for Kun to study.

How does this entail him "inventing" these beasts and not simply creating using someone else's work?

How does this again matter ? Kun did create some beasts which is clearly stated. If he "invented" them or just "used knowledge of Sadow to create them" is irrelevant because Kun clearly had Sadow's knowledge + Nadd's knowledge + his own prior / later developed knowledge which simply puts his amount of knowledge over whatever Sadow did have.

Ok Nai, KUN states that he has more knowledge than he would ever use, now. Did he use that knowledge, if so how much?

The narrator states the same. And it says more knowledge than he could ever use meaning that he was basically prepared for everything that could possibly happen.

And how in the world is it logical to assume Kun had more knowledge than Sadow? Kun had Sadow's knowledge, Sadow had Sadow's knowledge. Kun had Nadd's knowledge, and who trained Nadd? Sadow. And again Sadow learned in the apex of sith power so I would think it's more logical to assume that as an ancient sith he had MORE knowledge than Kun just learning from his work, and Nadd. Also, I could sit here and take online classes, but I will NEVER learn as much as I will from that teacher if I sat in a classroom.

Sadow had Sadow's knowledge.
Nadd had Sadow's knowledge + whatever he developed himself.
Kun had Sadow's knowledge + Nadd's knowledge + his Jedi knowledge + what he got from Ossus (partitially) + what he developed himself.

How can Sadow have more knowledge now ? To be precise: More useful knowledge.

Are you saying it's logical to assume that in the golden age of the sith, only RAGNOS knew this power?

Do you think it's logical to assume that every Sith on his own was able to drain planets empty or use said technique as a sort of instakill even able to kill Jedi Masters when we clearly saw several Sith Lords being killed during normal combat (by Jedi, by Massassi, by normal soldiers) ? When we can assume that not even all members of the Sith Council had access to this ability - how can we assume that it was commonly known then ?

No it is not logical to assume they all had access to this, notice how I always preach that not EVERY ancient sith was an uber god, but is it logical to assume that only Ragnos had this ability?