Naga Sadow and Dooku vs Exar Kun and Yoda

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
A few things here. Kun perhaps DID have everything from Sadow, but unless you are saying Kun learned everything that Sadow learned in his life, in 1 year, it's safe to assume that he did in fact NOT learn everything that Sadow had to offer, no?

There's also the fact he took scrolls from Nadd's tomb, presumably had twenty plus years of Jedi training, and also plundered Ossus, in which the narration described it as "more wealth and knowledge than Exar Kun can ever hope to use".

And yes, it might have been Anderson's opinion, but I fail to see how it is relevant here.

How is it irrelevant exactly? The man owns Ragnos, he and Veitch created TOTJ. He said Exar Kun > Ancient Sith once before I believe (Lightsnake emailed him before this), and then he says either Exar Kun or Sidious would have to fight for the title of strongest, implying Exar Kun > Ancient Sith. The man has the right authority to make the call, too, seeing as TOTJ is credited mostly to him (and Veitch).

Again I'll mention it, for all you know he could have been talking about accomplishments, not actual force abilities/raw power(again I don't know).

What? He said Exar Kun and Sidious would have to fight, not stand up on a podium and talk about accomplishments. We already know who the greatest Sith Lord is - that's Sidious, that's a definite. It's illogical to assume he meant accomplishments when Sidious outweighs everyone (taking down Republic, ruling the galaxy - the true Sith goal). He was talking about them in terms of combat.

And there's nothing to suggest the freezing thing was Kun's invention, as it was called an "ancient sith spell" or "sith spell". Regardless, it MIGHT have been one of his inventions but not likely, I would assume he learned it from Sadow's notes.

You can't assume anything, and no - it was called exactly "Exar Kun's Sith spell":

And why is it not likely? Notice he realizes what Sadow's alchemy and magic can do, so he plans on mastering it:

I'd say a master of Sith magic and alchemy is very capable of creating their own spells, and the like.

And your thing about the ancient sith was my point, since they were the originals and all that(could mean they were the most powerful, could mean otherwise),

They clearly weren't the most powerful as you'd like to think.

but the fact remains that everybody learned from them, and some of their ancient techniques were even lost within those 5,000 years, meaning just because they came 5,000 years BBY doesn't mean the dark side users got progressively better, because we actually see the opposite(with the exception of Sidious).

We see the opposite? I see Exar Kun raining destruction upon everything he touches. We see Nihilus draining entire worlds full of Jedi, and Kreia instakilling three Jedi Masters. We see Lord Kaan use the Thought Bomb to utterly wipe out everyone on Ruusan, save for Bane and Zannah. And of course, we see Sidious destroying entire fleets.

Originally posted by Escape81
I love you.

See my Antithesis of Ragnos Owns All thread in the EU section.

Lol.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama

There's also the fact he took scrolls from Nadd's tomb, presumably had twenty plus years of Jedi training, and also plundered Ossus, in which the narration described it as "more wealth and knowledge than Exar Kun can ever hope to use".

And for some reason there's a huge debate between how much he studied, because lightsnake claims he didn't get to study any of it, and I claimed that the only thing he had to study was the holocron, so unless you can quantify how much studied from those scrolls, then the point is irrelevant.

How is it [b]irrelevant exactly? The man owns Ragnos, he and Veitch created TOTJ. He said Exar Kun > Ancient Sith once before I believe (Lightsnake emailed him before this), and then he says either Exar Kun or Sidious would have to fight for the title of strongest, implying Exar Kun > Ancient Sith. The man has the right authority to make the call, too, seeing as TOTJ is credited mostly to him (and Veitch).

You're going to have to show me that email again because I remember it having absoutely nothing to do with the ancient sith, infact I remember him saying we can't really character x from his time to character y from his time. Yes he did mention Exar Kun was the most powerful of his time, but what does this say for the ancient sith?

You can't assume anything, and no - it was called exactly "Exar Kun[b]'s Sith spell":

Ah yes Sama, so when in the Star Wars novels "Palpatine unleashed his force lightning", apparently he invented it by your logic right?

And why is it not likely? Notice he realizes what Sadow's alchemy and magic can do, so he plans on mastering it:

Oh ok, so you have conclusive proof or ANY proof that he mastered it?

I'd say a master of Sith magic and alchemy is very capable of creating their own spells, and the like.:

Oh, like what did he create?

They clearly weren't the most powerful as you'd like to think.

That's debateable Sama..

We see the opposite? I see Exar Kun raining destruction upon everything he touches. We see Nihilus draining entire worlds, and Kreia instakilling three Jedi Masters. We see Lord Kaan use the Thought Bomb to utterly wipe out everyone on Ruusan, save for Bane and Zannah. And of course, we see Sidious destroying entire fleets.

Ok and? What is your point? We see Ragnos' scepter instill force abilities in non force sensitives, doing what Nihilus did, etc. We see Sadow using Sith magic from his ship to tear out the core from the sun. What is your point with what Kreia does? She uses Nihilus' technique on a much smaller scale. Where do you think she learned that? Wasn't she on Malachor V, a storage for ancient sith knowledge? Hmm, it appears there's a lot of proof(not as conclusive as I would like it to be) that the ancient sith were indeed very powerful.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You didn't seem to understand what swirly was saying.

I hadn't even made a post in this thread after Swirly posted until you started 'explaining physics' to me. So dude, seriously, what are you talking about?

'Ah yes Sama, so when in the Star Wars novels "Palpatine unleashed his force lightning", apparently he invented it by your logic right?'

lol 😆

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And for some reason there's a huge debate between how much he studied, because lightsnake claims he didn't get to study any of it, and I claimed that the only thing he had to study was the holocron, so unless you can quantify how much studied from those scrolls, then the point is irrelevant.

Considering Exar Kun landed on Yavin 4 before Cay even confronted Ulic, and the Jedi weren't above Kun's base before Mandalore was finished the battle on Onderon - I'm inclined to say he had a few hours actually, and with what we know Kun can do in a few months, I'd say he had time to study some of the material actually - I doubt he just threw it aside aimlessly.

As well, I guess his Jedi training, and stuff he got from Nadd is irrelevant, too then? No.

You're going to have to show me that email again because I remember it having absoutely nothing to do with the ancient sith, infact I remember him saying we can't really character x from his time to character y from his time. Yes he did mention Exar Kun was the most powerful of his time, but what does this say for the ancient sith?

Exar Kun is in the same comic series as the Ancient Sith, and you'll have to ask Lightsnake for the email. As well, you seem to also forgot that he said Exar Kun and Palpatine would have to fight for the title, not Ragnos, not Sadow, not Kressh, but Exar friggin' Kun.

Ah yes Sama, so when in the Star Wars novels "Palpatine unleashed his force lightning", apparently he invented it by your logic right?

There's conclusive proof that people before Sidious knew Force lightning. This is not the case with Exar Kun, and there's actually reason to even think he did create it.

So, to answer your question: No. Next time you try and respond, at least make sure you know what you're saying, okay? Just some advice.

Oh ok, so you have conclusive proof or ANY proof that he mastered it?

What? I, unlike you, have logical deduction. Exar Kun was working with this:

"A trove of equipment", and as well:

He said that Sadow's magic and alchemy would destroy him unless he mastered it. As we can see: he wasn't destroyed.

So, let me pose the question to you: Do you have any conclusive evidence that he learned it from Sadow? No? Okay then - you see how it works both ways?

Oh, like what did he create?

What? I said he's capable of creating his own spells, ergo it's very possible the spell he used on the Senate was his (as it says exactly "Exar Kun's (possessive) Sith spell"😉. But, I suppose I can show you what else he did create:

Zythmnr - Massassi priest - turned into this:

Using Sith alchemy, he was able to transform a Massassi into what was described by narration as "monstrousity, beast of war, malformed servant of death" and "alchemy that can make a warrior into a god".

That's debateable Sama..

Yes, and so far any debate from your side has been led to slaughter.

Ok and? What is your point? We see Ragnos' scepter instill force abilities in non force sensitives, doing what Nihilus did, etc. We see Sadow using Sith magic from his ship to tear out the core from the sun. What is your point with what Kreia does? She uses Nihilus' technique on a much smaller scale. Where do you think she learned that? Wasn't she on Malachor V, a storage for ancient sith knowledge? Hmm, it appears there's a lot of proof(not as conclusive as I would like it to be) that the ancient sith were indeed very powerful.

Which Ancient Sith? You can't even say for sure, and you cannot assume "all" have those powers because it'd be illogical to think Sadow can instakill anybody, he cannot do what Nihilus does, as it seems - only Ragnos' sceptor (technology) has that power. And as we see in KOTOR, apparently there is no more need for an item as Nihilus does it without anything. So, perhaps later generations further develop Ancient Sith powers.

On top of that, you realize that it's likely the Legions of Lettow created some techniques, too?

'Ah yes Sama, so when in the Star Wars novels "Palpatine unleashed his force lightning", apparently he invented it by your logic right?'

lol

How's that funny again? The point he was trying to make was rendered invalid. LOLOLO!!!>!!?!WS///ELEVNEON!@!!?E

Kun didn't have time to study the holocron or what he got from Ossus...he barely had enough time to store what he got from Ossus. His escape and Cay's death happened within minutes of eachother.

Moreover, Kun also created two-headed avians, the Golden Globe, mutant massassi, Battle Hydras...and the Terentatek

Actually, I don't think that he created the Terentatek. I think that the person in the enclave mentioned that they were creations of the ancient sith.

The NEC lists them as his I believe

I'm sure they were creations of the Ancient Sith. I don't have KotOR on hand, so if anyone could check; I'd be grateful. I could be wrong, or the NEC could have messed up.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kun didn't have time to study the holocron or what he got from Ossus...he barely had enough time to store what he got from Ossus. His escape and Cay's death happened within minutes of eachother.

Uh, Lightsnake, you realize Kun got on his ship before Ulic and Cay even started the battle right? About five or so pages before they even started. As well, the opening narration of The Sith War states that Exar landed on Yavin 4 before Cay even confronted Ulic:

"Kun takes his booty and escapes to his secret base on Yavin Four. After downing the Nebulon Ranger, Ulic confronts Cay in the wreckage." And also, Kun did plan on studying what he got from Ossus:

"Come, back to our base on Yavin Four to study the spoils of war!" - Exar Kun.

As well, the Jedi weren't even above Yavin Four until the battle on Onderon was finished.

Or Kun genetically altered them like he did with some massassi

Like I said, the confrontation between Cay and Ulic happened minutes after Kun departed the planet.
Sure, Kun planned on studying it, but he never got the opportunity.

I don't see how he could. It's not mentioned in KotOR that the Terentatek were even created, and I can remember it being implied that they were native species to Korriban.

Well, the NEC lists them as his creations. One way or another, they're sithspawn, though

Meh, I'll have to wait until I can get my hands on KotOR; but I'm pretty sure that the NEC is mistaken.

Or it's a retcon

Nah, there would be no need for it. I don't see the point of any supposed retcon on the Terentatek's origins. The NEC has been mistaken before.

I'm pretty sure Wallace listed the errors on his blog

How could KOTOR hold precedent over the NEC anyways? They are both C-canon, and the NEC came out after both KOTOR games.

But wouldn't a retcon have been announced?

Or, I could just be wrong. But I'm pretty sure that they've existed before.