Originally posted by Motoko Sama
How could KOTOR hold precedent over the NEC anyways? They are both C-canon, and the NEC came out after both KOTOR games.
KotOR being the source material for the matter at hand?
Or the fact that a retcon would be unecessary and hasn't been announced (to my knowledge)?
And the NEC has had minor errors relating to the KotOR era beforehand.
The thing about the NEC is that there is an in-universe narrator, Voen Na'al who has basically uncovered a bunch of data caches and has written an entire book on them, The New Essential Chronology. Therefor, it shouldn't be able to retcon any earlier sources such as KotOR, as you can just say that the data caches were unreliable or incomplete for instance. Makes sense?
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Considering Exar Kun landed on Yavin 4 before Cay even confronted Ulic, and the Jedi weren't above Kun's base before Mandalore was finished the battle on Onderon - I'm inclined to say he had a few hours actually, and with what we know Kun can do in a few months, I'd say he had time to study some of the material actually - I doubt he just threw it aside aimlesslyAs well, I guess his Jedi training, and stuff he got from Nadd is irrelevant, too then? No.
Ok Sama, so you THINK he had a few hours to study, which could be logical for sure, but can you quantify that time in terms of his power? I don't think so.
Exar Kun is in the same comic series as the Ancient Sith, and you'll have to ask Lightsnake for the email. As well, you seem to also forgot that he said Exar Kun and Palpatine would have to fight for the title, not Ragnos, not Sadow, not Kressh, but Exar friggin' Kun.
Fight for what title, there was nothing about "fighting for the most powerful sith lord". As I recall he said it would be interesting to see who would be the more powerful one. And you mention they are in the same comic series Sama, but I can counter that by saying the ancient sith were extinct by Kun's time, so that wouldn't include him obviously. I believe Freedon Nadd was the last one?
There's conclusive proof that people before Sidious knew Force lightning. This is not the case with Exar Kun, and there's actually reason to even think he did create it.
Again, it COULD be, but there's no conclusive evidence to suggest that he did. For all you know he could have studied Sadow's teachings and learned the technique from there, it's inconclusive.
So, to answer your question: No. Next time you try and respond, at least make sure you know what you're saying, okay? Just some advice.
Uh, I was responding to your exact text so I know what I was saying. Your text wasn't ambiguous, you clearly made it seem like it was his because it was described as "his sith spell", so I gave you an example of how this is invalid..
What? I, unlike you, have logical deduction. Exar Kun was working with this:"A trove of equipment", and as well:
Um ok? I'm glad you think you have logical deduction and I don't? You're entitled to your own opinion so don't let little old me rain on your parade.
He said that Sadow's magic and alchemy would destroy him unless he mastered it. As we can see: he wasn't destroyed.So, let me pose the question to you: Do you have any conclusive evidence that he learned it from Sadow? No? Okay then - you see how it works both ways?
I'm sorry what? Kun's personal opinion(obviously somewhat credible but to an extent since he obviously didn't know enough about what he was getting himself into to make a conclusive statement) was that he would be destroyed if he didn't master it. Your proof that he mastered it was that he wasn't destroyed? How about the possibility that he didn't master it, nor learned everything? Hmm. And as for your next point about him creating a beast with sith alchemy, he didn't create the priest, he "improved" the priest USING Sadow's teachings, so how is that a creation?
Which Ancient Sith? You can't even say for sure, and you cannot assume "all" have those powers because it'd be illogical to think Sadow can instakill anybody, he cannot do what Nihilus does, as it seems - only Ragnos' sceptor (technology) has that power. And as we see in KOTOR, apparently there is no more need for an item as Nihilus does it without anything. So, perhaps later generations further develop Ancient Sith powers.On top of that, you realize that it's likely the Legions of Lettow created some techniques, too?
Which ancient sith? When the ancient sith are mentioned, it would be anywhere between 6900 BBY and 5000 BBY I'm assuming? And I didn't assume ALL those powers came from them, but which powers didn't come from them Sama? I'm assuming the force lightning came from the first dark jedi, while other powers such as force drain, force storm, force crush, blasts, etc came from the ancient sith. We see nothing new created aside from Sidious' stuff. And again, Sadow might have known the technique and he might not have. Are you saying Ragnos DIDNT know the technique yet somehow put it into his scepter? That's interesting. And if Ragnos knew it, there's a chance other powerful ancient sith knew it too, but it is stated by Kreia(who is a credible source as far as a historian) that it was derived from the ancient sith.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok Sama, so you THINK he had a few hours to study, which could be logical for sure, but can you quantify that time in terms of his power? I don't think so.
What does it matter? We seem to have gotten off the actual subject of this response: You were saying Sadow knows more than Exar Kun. I'm saying Exar Kun has Sadow's notes, Nadd's scrolls and training, and his own Jedi training (for presumably twenty some years).
Fight for what title, there was nothing about "fighting for the most powerful sith lord". As I recall he said it would be interesting to see who would be the more powerful one. And you mention they are in the same comic series Sama, but I can counter that by saying the ancient sith were extinct by Kun's time, so that wouldn't include him obviously. I believe Freedon Nadd was the last one?
As I've said, ask Lightsnake for the email or look it up. I didn't email him.
Again, it COULD be, but there's no conclusive evidence to suggest that he did. For all you know he could have studied Sadow's teachings and learned the technique from there, it's inconclusive.
You said it's unlikely that Exar created it himself, I'm saying that it's very likely that he did, and I gave proof as to why it is likely. We're not arguing conclusively, we're arguing possibilities. You realize that all versus matches are inconclusive really, right?
Uh, I was responding to your exact text so I know what I was saying. Your text wasn't ambiguous, you clearly made it seem like it was his because it was described as "his sith spell", so I gave you an example of how this is invalid..
No, if you understood the difference between the things surrounding Exar Kun's spell, and Sidious' Force lightning - you'd realize your response is invalid, as I already explained.
Um ok? I'm glad you think you have logical deduction and I don't? You're entitled to your own opinion so don't let little old me rain on your parade.
Sexy, as much as you like to think your the "king shit" of logic, you're really not. You claim to use logic when debating Lightsnake, I really only saw fallacious ad hominem responses on your part (so did Lightsnake, but he actual provided a reasonable argument).
I'm sorry what? Kun's personal opinion(obviously somewhat credible but to an extent since he obviously didn't know enough about what he was getting himself into to make a conclusive statement) was that he would be destroyed if he didn't master it. Your proof that he mastered it was that he wasn't destroyed? How about the possibility that he didn't master it, nor learned everything? Hmm.
What the hell are you talking about? It's logical to assume he did master it, because he states that's what he is going to do. I suppose when Exar Kun says he's going to "study the spoils of war!", he's not planning on doing it?
And it would seem he did master it, seeing as he froze the Galactic Senate against their will, and "forced them to watch" - that would include most likely include thousands of beings, and the place was filled to the brim.
And as for your next point about him creating a beast with sith alchemy, he didn't create the priest, he "improved" the priest USING Sadow's teachings, so how is that a creation?
No, he "sought to create monstrosities, beasts of war, malformed servants of death...and so does Exar Kun" unless you want to argue with narration:
You were saying?
And according to the New Essential Chronology as well, he also was "creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood." Care to argue with the NEC, and actual source material now?
Which ancient sith? When the ancient sith are mentioned, it would be anywhere between 6900 BBY and 5000 BBY I'm assuming?
So, it's a possibility it could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost after that?
And I didn't assume ALL those powers came from them,
O RLY?
Can you tell me of any darkside techniques that DIDNT derive from them with the exception of the force storm which did derive from them but was perfected by Sidious? hmm..
In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this implies that all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm, and we have two more, in which you seem to think "all" did derive from them:
and so did the majority(if not all) of the techniques the sith hav
But most, if not all the abilities later sith lords use, are derived from the ancient sith.
but which powers didn't come from them Sama?
Why are you continuously asking me to prove something you've yet to even list?
I'm assuming the force lightning came from the first dark jedi, while other powers such as force drain, force storm, force crush, blasts, etc came from the ancient sith.
So the first Dark Jedi created Force lightning, but the rest were created by the Ancient Sith? I'm inclined to believe most of the aforementioned were created by the Legions of Lettow, or any other Dark Jedi before the Ancient Sith. So, is your assumption more valid? No, it's not.
We see nothing new created aside from Sidious' stuff.
And? Are you saying it's not possible that the Ancient Sith just got started on the beginnings of these techniques, and as they further progressed down the ages - they improved?
According to wookie on Force powers, there's about five that don't have roots from the Ancient Sith (though I'm not sure how legit. these powers since they are from wookie), most of them come from Jedi Knight: Dark Forces/II, but one comes from Rokur Gepta called "torture by chagrin". And Lord Kaan and other Sith developed the "Thought Bomb".
And also, you're assuming that because the Ancient Sith might've created some of these techniques, that they mastered them fully, and are the most powerful at doing so. This would be incorrect to assume, because looking at it in our world - it could be the equivalent to the first person who built a single shot gun, now we have machine guns and automatics for Christ's sakes.
And again, Sadow might have known the technique and he might not have.
And? Since it's an unknown, you cannot use it in any battles, so I don't even know why you try to argue it. My entire point was just that: it's unknown, ergo we can't use it at all.
Are you saying Ragnos DIDNT know the technique yet somehow put it into his scepter? That's interesting.
Ragnos without the sceptor? I'm inclined to say yes. It's the equivalent to you acknowledging that Sadow cannot blow up stars without his ship, or Exar Kun shooting laser beams out of his ass without his amulet. Are you saying that Sadow or Kun can do either of those things without their equipment? That's interesting.
And if Ragnos knew it, there's a chance other powerful ancient sith knew it too, but it is stated by Kreia(who is a credible source as far as a historian) that it was derived from the ancient sith.
Yes, "derived". It could just be partially developed into technology, and furthered by later generations.
'How's that funny again? The point he was trying to make was rendered invalid. LOLOLO!!!>!!?!WS///ELEVNEON!@!!?E'
Hold up, aren't you the person who's going wild with laughter at Escapes 'jokes'? Yet you're picking up on why I lold at something Sexy said? Interesting...
And the point that he was trying to make wasn't rendered invalid.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'How's that funny again? The point he was trying to make was rendered invalid. LOLOLO!!!>!!?!WS///ELEVNEON!@!!?E'Hold up, aren't you the person who's going wild with laughter at Escapes 'jokes'? Yet you're picking up on why I lold at something Sexy said? Interesting...
And the point that he was trying to make [b]wasn't
rendered invalid. [/B]
It's because she loves me, and I'm funny. 😄 😛
Hold up, aren't you the person who's going wild with laughter at Escapes 'jokes'? Yet you're picking up on why I lold at something Sexy said? Interesting...
Because Escape's 'jokes' are just that. They are not in league with a point (at least what I think your talking about). And even so, if they are, they are at least made correctly.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
And the point that he was trying to make [b]wasn't rendered invalid. [/B]
I said what the Sith spell was exactly described as, I didn't say "since it's possessive form, it was definitly his", so his response was rendered invalid. Also, his response was about Sidious' Force lightning, which we already know wasn't created by Sidious himself; we don't know if Exar Kun's Sith spell was already created or not - therefore what he used was invalid. You can argue because I bolded the 'apostrophe s', that it was valid, however, all I was pointing out that it wasn't called an "Ancient Sith spell" as he said.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
What does it matter? We seem to have gotten off the actual subject of this response: You were saying Sadow knows more than Exar Kun. I'm saying Exar Kun has Sadow's notes, Nadd's scrolls and training, and his own Jedi training (for presumably twenty some years).You said it's unlikely that Exar created it himself, I'm saying that it's very likely that he did, and I gave proof as to why it is likely. We're not arguing conclusively, we're arguing possibilities. You realize that all versus matches are inconclusive really, right?
Knowing Sadow's notes, Jedi training and Nadd's notes somehow surpasses a lifetime of training during the apex of the sith power? Unlikely, although inconclusive.
Sexy, as much as you like to think your the "king shit" of logic, you're really not. You claim to use logic when debating Lightsnake, I really only saw fallacious ad hominem responses on your part (so did Lightsnake, but he actual provided a reasonable argument).
What the hell are you talking about? It's logical to assume he did master it, because he states that's what he is going to do. I suppose when Exar Kun says he's going to "study the spoils of war!", he's not planning on doing it?
I'm sorry Sama how is that logical. Because he said he was going to do it? Wow, then Sadow should have conquered the Republic because "he said he was going to do it". Right.
And it would seem he did master it, seeing as he froze the Galactic Senate against their will, and "forced them to watch" - that would include most likely include thousands of beings, and the place was filled to the brim.
What? That means he mastered it, because he learned a sith spell? How in the world does that mean he mastered it, as opposed to mastering maybe an aspect of that. Was Joruus an uber force god because he did what Kun did on a grander scale? I didn't think so, thanks.
No, he "sought to [b]create monstrosities, beasts of war, malformed servants of death...and so does Exar Kun" unless you want to argue with narration:You were saying?
Please learn the difference between "invented" and "created", no offense.
And according to the New Essential Chronology as well, he also was "creating freakish two-headed avians and hulking terentateks that thirsted after Force-rich blood." Care to argue with the NEC, and actual source material now?
In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this implies that all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm, and we have two more, in which you seem to think "all" did derive from them:
Show me where I said the ancient sith know all techniques, because I'm curious as to when I said it?
So the first Dark Jedi created Force lightning, but the rest were created by the Ancient Sith? I'm inclined to believe most of the aforementioned were created by the Legions of Lettow, or any other Dark Jedi before the Ancient Sith. So, is your assumption more valid? No, it's not.
Except we know nothing that was created by the ancient sith, but we know the certain most powerful techniques were derived from the ancient sith, so my assumption is more logical because there's backing for it, unless again you think Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character while discussing history.
And? Are you saying it's not possible that the Ancient Sith just got started on the beginnings of these techniques, and as they further progressed down the ages - they improved?
It's possible but again what does the term "derived from the ancient sith" mean?
According to wookie on Force powers, there's about five that don't have roots from the Ancient Sith (though I'm not sure how legit. these powers since they are from wookie), most of them come from Jedi Knight: Dark Forces/II, but one comes from Rokur Gepta called "torture by chagrin". And Lord Kaan and other Sith developed the "Thought Bomb".
Not sure about the origins of the thought bomb.
And also, you're assuming that because the Ancient Sith might've created some of these techniques, that they mastered them fully, and are the most powerful at doing so. This would be incorrect to assume, because looking at it in our world - it could be the equivalent to the first person who built a single shot gun, now we have machine guns and automatics for Christ's sakes.
Just as it is incorrect to assume that they're nothing without their amulets, and that they are average or above average at best.
Ragnos without the sceptor? I'm inclined to say yes. It's the equivalent to you acknowledging that Sadow cannot blow up stars without his ship, or Exar Kun shooting laser beams out of his ass without his amulet. Are you saying that Sadow or Kun can do either of those things without their equipment? That's interesting.
No, because certain techniques need the aid of amulets, but we see Nihilus and Kreia using the same technique, and since it was derived from the ancient sith, and since Kreia studied and learned from Malachor V, it is logical to assume the ancient sith knew the technique with or without the scepter.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Knowing Sadow's notes, Jedi training and Nadd's notes somehow surpasses a lifetime of training during the apex of the sith power? Unlikely, although inconclusive.
As is everything we're arguing.
Where the hell did this come from? I would assume an illogical assumption is a logical fallacy too, since you're pointing them out.
Illogical assumption? Do you need to be reminded of what you said every post? Well, here it is. And everyone agrees - you commit ad hominem.
And why are you bringing him in there, the only reason I said it was a lightsnake type of argument because your point was irrelevant.
Actually, it was completely relevant. You just don't accept anything that puts a negative light on your side.
Please don't start getting angry over a star wars forum and accusing me of nonsense. Yes Sama, lightsnake provided a reasonable argument but I didn't, right.. Moving on.
I know it's right. Again, do you need to be reminded what happened?
I'm sorry Sama how is that logical. Because he said he was going to do it? Wow, then Sadow should have conquered the Republic because "he said he was going to do it". Right.
Sorry, there's a difference as usual. Sadow didn't conquer the Republic, there's nothing that says Exar didn't master Sith alchemy and magic. On the contrary, it would seem he did as he created avians, terentateks, "super" Massassi, and so on.
What? That means he mastered it, because he learned a sith spell? How in the world does that mean he mastered it, as opposed to mastering maybe an aspect of that.
Considering the scale of which he did it, it would seem he did master it. And if you are acknowledging he mastered an "aspect" of it, why not assume he mastered everything Sadow had?
Was Joruus an uber force god because he did what Kun did on a grander scale? I didn't think so, thanks.
Joruus never actually performed the action. He'd only thought he'd be able to. As well, it required his active concentration as opposed to Kun was able to control the Chancellor, move about freely, and strike down Vodo while still having the Senate under his control.
Please learn the difference between "invented" and "created", no offense.
Please remember what you said, and what I was directly responding to:
And as for your next point about him creating a beast with sith alchemy, he didn't create the priest, he "improved" the priest USING Sadow's teachings, so how is that a creation?
No, I'm arguing with the comic that he was actually in, not the NEC, and again learn the difference between invent and create, because it just proves my point. Unless of course you think Kun "invented" all of these terrible beasts..
You originally said "how is that a creation?" - keyword: creation. So, I don't even understand what the hell you're trying to do here, but I'll just assume it's a GM tactic.
Show me where I said the ancient sith know all techniques, because I'm curious as to when I said it?
Damn, you really can't read can you:
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
O RLY?Can you tell me of any darkside techniques that DIDNT derive from them with the exception of the force storm which did derive from them but was perfected by Sidious? hmm..
In response to me saying "So the Ancient Sith know all techniques", this [b]implies
that all techniques came from the Ancient Sith aside from Sidious' storm, and we have two more, in which you seem to think "all" did derive from them.
[/B]
Except we know nothing that was created by the ancient sith, but we know the certain most powerful techniques were derived from the ancient sith, [so my assumption is more logical because there's backing for it, unless again you think Kreia is a fallible 3rd party character while discussing history.
Sadly, there's only two techniques that are said to derive from the Ancient Sith, and you were saying that "all, if not most, come from the Ancients"...so, how does two techniques having roots from the Ancient Sith mean they created/knew them all?
It's possible but again what does the term "derived from the ancient sith" mean?
"Derived" could mean simply just having stemmed from, ergo later generations could've improved on them. And there's only two that came from them definitely, so again what does that mean? It sure as hell doesn't mean they created all or even most of the techniques.
Just as it is incorrect to assume that they're nothing without their amulets, and that they are average or above average at best.
Wow, can you answer the actual point instead of skirting off in a different direction perhaps? I'd appreciate it. And, when did I say they were "nothing" without their amulets? Oh? I didn't? Okay, quit making shit up then.
Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology.
That's it. I didn't say they are nothing, or even average. I said above average and powerful.
No, because certain techniques need the aid of amulets,
The only one apparently is shooting beams out of your ass.
but we see Nihilus and Kreia using the same technique, and since it was derived from the ancient sith, and since Kreia studied and learned from Malachor V, it is logical to assume the ancient sith knew the technique with or without the scepter.
And? Are you saying it's illogical to assume they further developed upon it? It's not illogical, therefore you cannot just say 'they knew it!'. To what degree did they know it exactly?
'I'm sorry Sama how is that logical. Because he said he was going to do it? Wow, then Sadow should have conquered the Republic because "he said he was going to do it". Right.'
I agree with this point.
'No, because certain techniques need the aid of amulets, but we see Nihilus and Kreia using the same technique, and since it was derived from the ancient sith, and since Kreia studied and learned from Malachor V, it is logical to assume the ancient sith knew the technique with or without the scepter.'
However, it isn't logical to assume that they could use the technique with the same effectiveness or magnitude.
