Naga Sadow and Dooku vs Exar Kun and Yoda

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Someone like Zett Jukassa of course would've collapsed, no arguing there.

I suppose Kir Kanos getting his head smashed in so hard that his helmet smashed and still managed to fight off and kill Carnor Jax is a "god among gods"? Kanos isn't even a Force user, and I doubt he actually even has close to the physical strength the Ancient Sith possess, but he was able to recover as well.

Yah, he had a helmet on. Heck (for instance), If I was riding at twenty miles per hour on my bicycle and fell off; there's a fairly good chance that I'd smash my head up. If I was wearing a helmet? I could survive.

If he didn't have his helmet on, his head would have been smashed up.

Implying that getting knocked down by a brick being thrown at you by Sadow is a bit silly to say the least.

The fact of the matter is for dueling his rival, he only pulls out three small bricks? You'd think he'd want to actually, y'know, defeat him. And then Ludo, even possessing that amount of physical strength AND the Force itself, gets put flat on his ass by a single brick. It's even less impressive for Ludo when you consider Kanos doesn't even have the Force.

Irrelevant. I guess in RotS, Obi-Wan and Anakin don't want to kill each other because they only force push each other? Lol, it's pretty clear that Ludo and Sadow loath each other and are out to kill each other.

And getting put on his back by a single brick? Pfft, have you ever had a brick rammed into your head at that speed?

It's not entirely the nicest of feelings, and the impetus from it is going to knock you down for certain.

Originally posted by Swirly Girl
Yah, he had a [b]helmet on. Heck (for instance), If I was riding at twenty miles per hour on my bicycle and fell off; there's a fairly good chance that I'd smash my head up. If I was wearing a helmet? I could survive.

If he didn't have his helmet on, his head would have been smashed up.

Implying that getting knocked down by a brick being thrown at you by Sadow is a bit silly to say the least.

Irrelevant. I guess in RotS, Obi-Wan and Anakin don't want to kill each other because they only force push each other? Lol, it's pretty clear that Ludo and Sadow loath each other and are out to kill each other.

And getting put on his back by a single brick? Pfft, have you ever had a brick rammed into your head at that speed?

It's not entirely the nicest of feelings, and the impetus from it is going to knock you down for certain. [/B]

I've takena brick to the head before. Some jackass who had a grudge against for me for some reason threw a brick at me in Middle school. I bled a bit btu besides that I was fine...

i agree that throwing a brick is pretty weak, considering that if Yoda or someone was in the fight they would have just thrown a wall...

Originally posted by Borbarad
Excuse me Sama. She knows that the technique comes from the Ancient Sith because Nihilus "learned" it at Malachor V - a storehouse of Ancient Sith knowledge. And the Exile resisted the effect because of his/her nature as "wound in the force" - not because he / she had a real "defence" (useable skill) against it.

The same blasts ? Maybe not. Still you can see Aleema Keto instakilling some minion with a Sith Magic attack that seems to desintegrate the victim - without using an amulet. And if some minor Sith Witch can do that I don't have any doubt that an Ancient Sith can pull that off.

Aside of this I don't even know why people are discussing if Kun is greater than Sadow. Anderson seems to think that Kun is more powerful than the Ancient Sith (as he basically indirectly stated when saying that, to find out who's the strongest Sith ever you have to put up Kun against Sidious). Also Kun did simply had a greater knowledge base then Sadow since he had all Sadow did knew + other stuff (from Nadd, from Ossus, from his own Jedi training) and possibly a greater force potential.

Hell...I don't even know why you are still debating here when - until now - basically all have agreed that (worst case for Yoda and Kun) this would end with Sadow vs Kun and Yoda which Sadow would lose. The thread is basically solved...

Nai, I read that email as well and please me where you got "Kun>Ancients out of it". As far as I remember the ancients weren't even mentioned, that Kun was the best of his time, and that Sidious was the best of his time, that's all.

Close. Probably Exar Kun and Yoda. Yoda defeats Dooku before Sadow can defeat Kun, and together they double-team sadow and win.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Well, Sexy, let's see: you've yet to tell me how there was a defense for it.

And anyways, as I've stated: what does this have to do with anything? We've never seen the Ancient Sith do anything like Nihilus has (without use of technology), and if, in fact, they did know it - they'd wipe themselves to extinction since it's natural, and apparently no defense other than being a wound in the Force. On top of the fact, they would've pwned the Republic. But - as I've said - they didn't, and were [b]killed or rather wiped off the face of the galaxy. And, still this is irrelevant because Sadow doesn't possess Ragnos' sceptor.

You're so ridiculous, and ignorant. Your entire argument is based off things we:

1.) Don't know.
2.) Never see.
3.) Know are ridiculous.

And "guessing" it's irrelevant? Oh god, I contribute more to this forum than you ever have. I present more logical arguments in a single thread than you have your entire posting history, and I also can tear anything you give to me to shreds. If anyone should be claiming that an argument is irrelevant, it should be me...tell me again - what does Nihilus' technique being derived from the Ancient Sith have to do with anything?

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses.

Which was to be demonstrated.

So Marka Ragnos knew Force lightning? He knew Force choke? No, you can't say any of those Ancient Sith have any of those abilities at all. How do you know they weren't derived from the first Dark Jedi, hm? Oh? You don't? I figured as much.

She never says Naga Sadow knew it, she never said Ludo Kressh knew it, she never said Marka Ragnos knew it. For all we [i]know (and that's about nothing), it could've been developed in 7,000 BBY and lost until Nihilus came around. So here, in fact, any argument you're trying to make collapses![/i]

That applies for all techniques said to be "derived" from the Ancient Sith.

And really, can you say 'irrelevant'? Simply because Marka Ragnos' sceptor does what Nihilus can do, doesn't mean Marka Ragnos can do it too (without his scepter), or any other Ancient Sith. So, basically, you're arguing irrelevant bullshit that doesn't even matter in this fight.

Okay, the Ancient Sith are above average and powerful, but they are less impressive because they used amulets/Sith technology. Sadow doesn't have his ship in this fight, Sadow has his amulets, and so does Kun? What the f*ck is your point exactly, Sexy? You haven't even proved how Exar Kun or Yoda is going to lose to Sadow.

What the f*ck does Ragnos' sceptor (not Sadow's) have to do with anything in this fight? What the f*ck does Sadow's ship have to do with anything in this fight?

Short answer: Nothing. Sadow cannot shoot beams out of his ass, and he cannot create solar manipulations without his ship. So, as I've been saying all along, how is any of this relevant?

We cannot assume Sadow has Force lightning, we cannot assume he has Force whatever, whatever because he hasn't shown us it. And it's illogical to assume such, because there could be an explanation for it.

What are you talking about? It's completely relevant.

Let me explain this to you easy,

Sadow. Is. Not. Capable. Of. Blowing. Up. A. Star. Without. His. Ship

So, you saying "z0mg h3's ub3r p0werfu1 b3caus3 h3 cr3ated it!" is stupid as hell to assume. And what the hell

"because the abilities within those amulets are unmatched anywhere else"

What exactly does this statement say? I mean, I went to a bilingual school for English and Japanese. I even know Mandarin, yet surprisingly I cannot understand gibberish.

I'll just copy and paste about the amulets only doing three things:

1.) Produce Dragonball Z blasts

The Ancient Sith cannot produce the same blasts without the amulets, that's ridiculous. If they could, they would've owned everybody and the Republic, too.

2.) Destroy spirits

Irrelevant really, I don't see how destroying spirits even speaks for their power unless Tionne and the other apprentices who banished Exar Kun are suddenly Force gods at age twelve and under.

3.) Carry messages down to the future

Irrelevant really in this fight.

They do not hold anymore "techniques", the amulets do those three things. The amulets do not produce Force lightning, they do not Force grip people. The only thing Sadow can use is the blasts, which we've only seen demonstrated by Exar anyways.

Now, I'm going to move onto my next point:

Even if "all/most" Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith (and that's bullshit anyways, but we'll work with it) that doesn't mean jack really. Simply because they created them, they are the best at those techniques? The most powerful at using them? No.

It could be the equivalent to how our world works: Someone created a single shot gun ages ago, now today you see we've produce machine guns, and automatic weapons, etc. So, actually it could be the Ancient Sith only worked at the beginnings (as it would seem since it says "derived"😉, ergo it doesn't mean they are the most powerful at using them.

Also, I'd like you to prove that all Darkside techniques are derived from the Ancient Sith, since you seem so fond on doing it.

Irrelevant, and a typical tdtd quote. Also, it wasn't irrelevant, you dolt. If you understood the question, possibly you'd know that.

You can try, Sexy, but as usual - it will just be countered again, and slaughtered by yours truly.

LOL! That was your counter? Firstly, let me say that I wasn't aware Sidious could just walk around draining people, shoot laser beams out of his ass, and [in ROTJ] knew all Darkside techniques.

Secondly, he didn't "get beat by a machine". I guess you didn't watch ROTJ? He was busy owning Luke, while his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years betrayed him, and caught him off guard. This differs from the Ancient Sith because they were IN. A. WAR. They were prepared, and knew what was coming.

Thirdly, he was only beaten when the combined powers of Luke Skywalker (the most powerful being in Star Wars), Leia, and her fetus used their strength to shield Sidious from the Darkside or something like that, and thus he was left unable to control the storm and it owned him.

Fourth, you can quit the downplaying, and bad logic - it's not helping.

Oh god, can we say "contradiction" - if they aren't intelligent how the f*ck did they "develop all Darkside techniques"? I guess they are just a primitive race of imbeciles then, eh? It takes intelligence to develop techniques. They don't just wave their hands around, and a new technique comes to them.

Again:

I shouldn't have to tell you which didn't because we don't know. God damn this is an easy argument.

Better question: can you tell me which techniques did come from the Ancient Sith? Then also tell me which Sith knew them, and if they could've been developed 7,000 BBY and lost among the ages?

You've yet to specify which techniques came from them, so I really shouldn't have to tell you which didn't as it's up to you to do that. You sure as hell know logic, eh? [/B]

I love you.

See my Antithesis of Ragnos Owns All thread in the EU section.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
Well, you're assuming that Sadow is more powerful. How conclusive is that? Not very.

As well, I might as well point out that I'm "assuming" such based on what we have seen from both parties. Exar Kun has demonstrated more skill in melee combat than Sadow, he's also demonstrated more Force abilities than Sadow, too. I'm "assuming" my stuff based on what we see, and logical deduction. Based on those two things - Exar has shown his worth in combat ability, Sadow has not.

Which was to be demonstrated.

Okay? And I can also say that Exar Kun leaves traces with his lightsaber. As I've been trying to say throughout this entire discussion: your point?

Oh. How could I forget, you're going to say "z0mg sw0rd is heavi3r"! Yes, and I'll say - so what? A fencer using a rapier is capable of owning an opponent armed with a zweihander.

Exar Kun also increases "incredible physical strength" - crushing twice through Vodo's stick which was "more powerful than Exar Kun's lightsaber!". Granted the first time, he used two. But on the second time, he used [b]one side of his lightsaber - as it'd be impossible to use two anyways.

Exar Kun also is capable of picking up the Chancellor of the Senate with one hand by the head, and pushing Sylvar's head in with one hand, too.

And, as usual, your argument [here] fails. [/B]

Remind me how my argument here fails? Vodo isn't Naga Sadow, the ancient sith used swords because they were powerful enough to use them, you speak of logical deduction, here's one for you. Ancient Sith Species>Humans in terms of raw power. Unless of course Sadow magically puts the sword into the ground, through bricks, and Ludo Kressh DOESNT smash his sword in little pieces based on his power. Yes Sama, my argument here fails. And another thing.. Because we see Kun fight wth his saber and we only see Sadow stalemate Kressh, absence of proof and inconclusive evidence automatically means Kun>Sadow? Hmm. As to your other essay, I shall get to it when I can, give me a few hours to read it. And regarding your take on what powers came from the ancient sith? Let's start with which powers DIDNT come from the ancient sith, implying that somebody had to invent their own abilities. Who do wo we see doing that? Exactly, DE Sidious, who learned from the sith that existed not 1,000 years ago, not 2,000 years ago, but 5,000 years ago, and who's force storm was perfected. Now why is it that everybody that falls to the dark side(at least the most powerful ones), always end up learning from the ancient sith? That's an interesting thought. I highly doubt it was because they were average or "above average" or couldn't do ANYTHING without their amulets/ships.

Originally posted by Blaxican Hydra
I've takena brick to the head before. Some jackass who had a grudge against for me for some reason threw a brick at me in Middle school. I bled a bit btu besides that I was fine...

i agree that throwing a brick is pretty weak, considering that if Yoda or someone was in the fight they would have just thrown a wall...

Dude, getting a brick thrown directly at your head can kill you. I'm guessing you're either lying, or the brick hardly made any contact with your head whatsoever.

Nein, it just depends upon the force of the brick. I've had a brick drop a few feet onto my head before. It hurt, but I'm still here.

Having a brick tossed at a high speed to your head is something else.

No dude swirly girl is right. Do you understand physics? There's a difference between let's say having a brick fall off and smack you on the head, giving you a concussion at best, and having someone chuck a brick at your face at full speed, and either severely brain damaging you, or crushing your skull.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nai, I read that email as well and please me where you got "Kun>Ancients out of it". As far as I remember the ancients weren't even mentioned, that Kun was the best of his time, and that Sidious was the best of his time, that's all.

Meh. Lightsnake did ask who's the strongest Sith Lord - Anderson replied with "Sidious and Exar Kun have to fight". So it's either Kun or Sidious from Anderson perspective.

Then we have another e-mail from Veitch stating that Ragnos is Anderson's creation. So unless you want to tell me that Sadow is stronger then Ragnos (which would make no sense at all) I guess we have to go with Kun > Ancient Sith because Anderson didn't think about Ragnos or Sadow to be the most powerful. Of course this is only Anderson's opinion.

Remind me how my argument here fails? Vodo isn't Naga Sadow, the ancient sith used swords because they were powerful enough to use them, you speak of logical deduction, here's one for you. Ancient Sith Species>Humans in terms of raw power. Unless of course Sadow magically puts the sword into the ground, through bricks, and Ludo Kressh DOESNT smash his sword in little pieces based on his power.

What "raw power" are you talking about ? Physical strength ? That's very well possible - but the same would be true for Cathar and we saw Kun pushing Sylvar on her knees with one hand. Force power (throwing bricks) ? No. To be precise Ragnos and Sadow thing that the original "Jedi blood" (from the Dark Jedi that joined the Sith Empire) is more powerful than the "Sith blood".

Yes Sama, my argument here fails. And another thing.. Because we see Kun fight wth his saber and we only see Sadow stalemate Kressh, absence of proof and inconclusive evidence automatically means Kun>Sadow? Hmm.

Excuse me. Stating the oposite is equally inconclusive due to lack of proof...At least we know that Kun had everything Sadow knew + his own lightsaber skills (which were enough to defeat Vodo before) + whatever he learned in terms of Jedi powers before he joined the Dark Side. So it's indeed more likely that Kun > Sadow then vice versa.

Let's start with which powers DIDNT come from the ancient sith, implying that somebody had to invent their own abilities. Who do wo we see doing that?

Did you see an Ancient Sith freezing massive amounts of people ? I didn't - could be Kun's "invention".

Exactly, DE Sidious, who learned from the sith that existed not 1,000 years ago, not 2,000 years ago, but 5,000 years ago, and who's force storm was perfected. Now why is it that everybody that falls to the dark side(at least the most powerful ones), always end up learning from the ancient sith? That's an interesting thought. I highly doubt it was because they were average or "above average" or couldn't do ANYTHING without their amulets/ships.

Another illogical conclusion. People learned from the Ancient Sith because they were the "inventors" of most Dark Side knowledge. It's impossible not to learn from them but that doesn't exactly mean that they were naturally the most powerful. You can "learn" how to build Pyramids from the Ancient Egypt - doesn't mean you can't do it better than they did 5,000 years later.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No dude swirly girl is right. Do you understand physics? There's a difference between let's say having a brick fall off and smack you on the head, giving you a concussion at best, and having someone chuck a brick at your face at full speed, and either severely brain damaging you, or crushing your skull.

Are you talking to me or Blax?

A few things here. Kun perhaps DID have everything from Sadow, but unless you are saying Kun learned everything that Sadow learned in his life, in 1 year, it's safe to assume that he did in fact NOT learn everything that Sadow had to offer, no? And yes, it might have been Anderson's opinion, but I fail to see how it is relevant here. Again I'll mention it, for all you know he could have been talking about accomplishments, not actual force abilities/raw power(again I don't know). And there's nothing to suggest the freezing thing was Kun's invention, as it was called an "ancient sith spell" or "sith spell". Regardless, it MIGHT have been one of his inventions but not likely, I would assume he learned it from Sadow's notes. And your thing about the ancient sith was my point, since they were the originals and all that(could mean they were the most powerful, could mean otherwise), but the fact remains that everybody learned from them, and some of their ancient techniques were even lost within those 5,000 years, meaning just because they came 5,000 years BBY doesn't mean the dark side users got progressively better, because we actually see the opposite(with the exception of Sidious).

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Dude, getting a brick thrown directly at your head can kill you. I'm guessing you're either lying, or the brick hardly made any contact with your head whatsoever.

Now, notice the key word.

Can. I'm lucky that it didn't.

The thing is, you're acting as if it did nothing except give you a tiny bruise.
Any damage to the head that can cause bleeding though impact almost always at least gives you a concussion.

Nebaris, I explained physics to you.

The thing is td, you're not too smart. About 90% of the time, damage that can lead to bleeding through impact (not through a scratch or anything but impact) tends to produce at least a concussion.

Well, technically those dark side techniques could've come from the Lettow or Ajunta Pall and his ilk.

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
The thing is td, you're not too smart. About 90% of the time, damage that can lead to bleeding through [b]impact (not through a scratch or anything but impact) tends to produce at least a concussion. [/B]

Gee I thought you DIDNT call me td? Or is that a defense mechanism for anger? Learn physics. The bigger the speed of a brick coming at you, the more damage it will cause.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Gee I thought you DIDNT call me td? Or is that a defense mechanism for anger? Learn physics. The bigger the speed of a brick coming at you, the more damage it will cause.

Firstly, that is basic stuff. Secondly, where did I dispute that. Thirdly, all that you showed in that particular post and the majority of your other posts is that your reading comprehension sucks.

You didn't seem to understand what swirly was saying.