Originally posted by Metalmanx
Hey, what happened after that? I mean, what happened after the end of those scans? The fight couldn't have just stopped. What was the outcome?
Right after that scan, I believe there is an explosion in the background. Cap realizes that the others on his team are under attack, and he goes to help them. Spidey is about to make chase, but he realizes there are some guys trying to thieve Cap's shield from where it was webbed. Spidey runs them off, and webs Cap's shield high up to a building, as a gesture that will hopefully send Cap a message about the country the shield represents, and the LAWS that the shield is sworn to uphold.
Anywho.
As far as Cap's 'jobber aura' goes....this seems to be the one and ONLY argument against Cap in the thread. "He can do those things cause the writers want him to!" I don't get it...if the writers want him to...that means he CAN in fact do these things. If he does it ONCE, maybe it is just a showing of PIS or the like, if he does it repeatedly, though? Then maybe...just MAYBE...he really CAN.
Anywho, if marvel really didn't want us to think that Captain America could at least DEAL or HANG with Spidey up close, they could have at least had him dodging a single blow, right? It's clear from these THREE times, that Captain America COULD get some hits on spiderman, and these hits COULD affect spiderman.
I know the Scans are a little hazy, but pete even says "I'm numb below the waist...."
I would like to, one more time, point out to people that I'm not even arguing in favor of Captain America. I am simply arguing that Spidey wouldn't win in a curbstomp. Cap seems at least capable of edging out three wins from him. We have three fights. Two that show Cap as Pete's superior in close quarters, and another where they both get one hit in, and is entirely inconclusive. But even that inconclusive third scene at LEAST details that Captain America can hang with pete, if not take it to him.
*sigh* It's written and colored in ink, friends. Three times.
Cap takes the majority? ❌
But, does Spidey take this in a curbstomp? Hell ❌ .
You really expect people to accept crap like this:
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav327p097zm.jpg
on the versus forum as a capability though?
I can't even begin to describe how many levels of wrong are involved there...
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Who is faster?
Spider-Man
Who is stronger?
Spider-Man
Who is more agile?
Spider-Man
Who is more durable?
Spider-Man
Who heals faster?
Spider-Man
Who has better reflexes?
Spider-Man
Who is precognitive?
Spider-Man
Who is more intelligent?
Spider-Man
Who has a long range attack that can immobilise their opponent?
Spider-Man
Who has a fighting style based on super-strength, -speed, -reflexes, -agility and precognition?
Spider-ManWho would win the vast majority?
Spider-Man
This post should've ended all this...spam_laser
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You really expect people to accept crap like this:
http://img500.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav327p097zm.jpg
on the versus forum as a capability though?I can't even begin to describe how many levels of wrong are involved there...
If he does it ONCE to save a friend/fulfill the plot? Hell no! If he manages to do something like that in every single comic he is in...then...yeah; I think Marvel is trying to make it clear that that IS a capability of Captain America.
Originally posted by Soljer
Right after that scan, I believe there is an explosion in the background. Cap realizes that the others on his team are under attack, and he goes to help them. Spidey is about to make chase, but he realizes there are some guys trying to thieve Cap's shield from where it was webbed. Spidey runs them off, and webs Cap's shield high up to a building, as a gesture that will hopefully send Cap a message about the country the shield represents, and the LAWS that the shield is sworn to uphold.Anywho.
As far as Cap's 'jobber aura' goes....this seems to be the one and ONLY argument against Cap in the thread. "He can do those things cause the writers want him to!" I don't get it...if the writers want him to...that means he CAN in fact do these things. If he does it ONCE, maybe it is just a showing of PIS or the like, if he does it repeatedly, though? Then maybe...just MAYBE...he really CAN.
Anywho, if marvel really didn't want us to think that Captain America could at least DEAL or HANG with Spidey up close, they could have at least had him dodging a single blow, right? It's clear from these THREE times, that Captain America COULD get some hits on spiderman, and these hits COULD affect spiderman.
I know the Scans are a little hazy, but pete even says "I'm numb below the waist...."
I would like to, one more time, point out to people that I'm not even arguing in favor of Captain America. I am simply arguing that Spidey wouldn't win in a curbstomp. Cap seems at least capable of edging out three wins from him. We have three fights. Two that show Cap as Pete's superior in close quarters, and another where they both get one hit in, and is entirely inconclusive. But even that inconclusive third scene at LEAST details that Captain America can hang with pete, if not take it to him.
*sigh* It's written and colored in ink, friends. Three times.
Cap takes the majority? ❌
But, does Spidey take this in a curbstomp? Hell ❌ .
I think you seriously misunderstand what we mean when we say Cap shouldn't be able to do some of these things.
See here, Captain America and Spider-Man are two of the most well-known, beloved characters that Marvel has. When two characters like this fight, there will never be a curbstomping, or a clean win. Most of the time, CIS is involved, and the stronger/faster character will be brought down a couple pegs so the fight is more even. Other times, the fight will not end--i.e. something will interrupt their battle. Sound familiar?
Yup. You just admitted it yourself. There's an explosion, and the fight is interrupted. Do you really think Marvel is going to let Spider-Man get a clean win on Captain America, or, if you want, vice-versa? No. So, in these cases, we cannot truly consider these fights as how it would really go down.
So now we turn to the numbers, and common sense. As xmarks has said, Spider-Man is much stronger, much faster, has Spider-Sense, webs, three extra limbs, and armor to boot.
To be fair, Captain America does have his experience, and he does know how Spidey fights.
For a moment here (humor me), disreguard your close fights between Spidey and Cap, and just look at the facts we know about each character. Do you really think Captain America is going to be able to first, get close to Peter, hit him, hit him hard enough and consistently, to where he is going to pull off the win?
Now for another question, looking back on Civil War #3. Do you truly believe that Cap should have landed that hit on Peter, and made him fly backwards? I think everyone who has seen (even people who don't like Spider-Man) has conceded the fact that Cap should not have hit Spider-Man. Furthermore, that Spider-Man should not have flown backwards. Why? Well, once again, look at the facts. Look at the stats. After all, that is what these vs. forums are for.
Let's take Doc Ock, for example. Spidey has dodged multiple tentacles that are moving much faster than Cap's fists, or even Cap himself. Once again, do you really think Cap should have landed that hit?
I'm also unsure where you're getting these three wins from. We've seen the fight from the new Amazing Spider-Man; Spidey had disabled Cap's shield and drawn first blood. Hardly a win for Cap. We've also seen Civil War. Of this small snippet of a fight, Spidey had smashed him upside the jaw with his own shield, and then countered one of his punches. Cap lands a hit, as well, but I hardly think that would be counted as a win for Cap, as you're putting it.
What's the third one?
What you seem to be ignoring is that, in comics, sufficient skill is ALWAYS able to counter superior strength or speed. While this is a versus forum, not a comic...it is a COMIC BOOK versus forum. We have to look at it from a comic standpoint. Spidey has had trouble with skilled street level his entire career, and will continue to do so. Is this a repeated showing of PIS? Perhaps. But perhaps, Marvel is trying to get the point across: Skill can superceed superior strength.
Perhaps people are hung up on Cap being called peak human all the time. If it helps, he's also been said to be preternatural. 😉. Look, this is a guy that can run sixty miles an hour, stay conscious after having hundreds of tons of steel and concrete come down atop of him, throw his shield fast enough to catch up to an ICBM taking off, throw eight hundred pound women like he was tossing a basketball, catch a torpedo that is taking off, make minute calculations so that he can richochet his shield off of four objects, hitting each one with JUST enough force, and catch his shield afterwards, AND this is besides being one of the best fighters in Marvel, capable of mastering a fighting style in an unsual arena in a matter of minutes, while others have been shown to take DECADES to learn the same thing.
Cap's low-level superhuman. Cap has, as spider-man said, CENTURIES of skill above him, to think that Spider-man can take him down every time, or even eight out of ten times is just innane!
Anyway, as to your third question; I don't remember the issue, but it goes something along the lines of; Spider-man thinks "Something coming up behind me fast, but I can't whirl in time!" He ducks, and thinks "But who is fast enough to move in on me so quickly?" They exchange some words, Cap tells him to get the **** out, pete refuses. Pete extends his hand out, Cap slaps it away, and pete gets pissed about being "pushed around" too much, and says he WON'T be pushed around any more. Following this, Spidey tries to punch cap twice, both are blocked by Cap's shield, and Cap knocks Spidey back, across the street, and onto his ass.
None of these fights are entirely conclusive, I'll admit. But taking these three fights, who has dominated? :-/. It certainly isn't spider-man.
And once again; don't confuse this with me arguing for Cap....I don't know how many times I can say this, because I don't want to be accused of being a 'spidey-hater' or some such. Spider-man WOULD take a majority, but not ten, nine, or even eight out of ten. Not in my opinion :-/.
Then again, it isn't like, in debate, you are actually trying to convince the opposing debator of your point of view. Neither side will (normally) admit that they were mistaken, and 'see the light,' (unless they were TRULY ignorant to begin with...) the goal is always to sway those READING the debate to your side. Fact is, I don't see myself swaying many people. *sighs* Either way, I need to go work out soon, so I won't be able to continue this for much longer right at this moment.
Been a pleasure arguing with you all, however. Oh, and Hot Sauce....way back when, I read your fanfic. It's pretty good. Stop arguing with me and start working on the next part 😛.
Originally posted by Soljer
What you seem to be ignoring is that, in comics, sufficient skill is ALWAYS able to counter superior strength or speed. While this is a versus forum, not a comic...it is a COMIC BOOK versus forum. We have to look at it from a comic standpoint. Spidey has had trouble with skilled street level his entire career, and will continue to do so. Is this a repeated showing of PIS? Perhaps. But perhaps, Marvel is trying to get the point across: Skill can superceed superior strength.
I just wanna say...the only problem with this is that Spidey doesn't just have superior strength over Cap. He also has...well, superior everything, save fighting skills. But fighting skills become a non-factor when every other physical stat greatly trumps your opponent's. And it's not like Spidey is a lumbering moron either. He knows how to fight, has his own advanced style of fighting, and can easily compensate for someone with superior fighting skills.
Spider-Man wins this, 9/10. Unless, I dunno, an asteroid hits the Earth and kills everyone. I guess I'd give it to Cap then.
Originally posted by Soljer
What you seem to be ignoring is that, in comics, sufficient skill is ALWAYS able to counter superior strength or speed. While this is a versus forum, not a comic...it is a COMIC BOOK versus forum. We have to look at it from a comic standpoint. Spidey has had trouble with skilled street level his entire career, and will continue to do so. Is this a repeated showing of PIS? Perhaps. But perhaps, Marvel is trying to get the point across: Skill can superceed superior strength.
I just wanna say...the only problem with this is that Spidey doesn't just have superior strength over Cap. He also has...well, superior everything, save fighting skills. But fighting skills become a non-factor when every other physical stat greatly trumps your opponent's. And it's not like Spidey is a lumbering moron either. He knows how to fight, has his own advanced style of fighting, and can easily compensate for someone with superior fighting skills.
Spider-Man wins this, 9/10. Unless, I dunno, an asteroid hits the Earth and kills everyone. I guess I'd give it to Cap then.
Edit: Sorry about the double post.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I just wanna say...the only problem with this is that Spidey doesn't just have superior strength over Cap. He also has...well, superior everything, save fighting skills. But fighting skills become a non-factor when every other physical stat greatly trumps your opponent's. And it's not like Spidey is a lumbering moron either. He knows how to fight, has his own advanced style of fighting, and can easily compensate for someone with superior fighting skills.Spider-Man wins this, 9/10. Unless, I dunno, an asteroid hits the Earth and kills everyone. I guess I'd give it to Cap then.
Them damn asteroids, they just like flys I swear!! 😆
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I just wanna say...the only problem with this is that Spidey doesn't just have superior strength over Cap. He also has...well, superior everything, save fighting skills. But fighting skills become a non-factor when every other physical stat greatly trumps your opponent's. And it's not like Spidey is a lumbering moron either. He knows how to fight, has his own advanced style of fighting, and can easily compensate for someone with superior fighting skills.Spider-Man wins this, 9/10. Unless, I dunno, an asteroid hits the Earth and kills everyone. I guess I'd give it to Cap then.
Thank you. All the feats about Cap posted earlier were great and all but are nothing to what Spider-Man is capable of. And as such Spider-Man trumps Cap in a fight. In CW 3 Spider-Man was taking on multiple opponnets and was still kicking Cap's butt, and he wasn't even all there. We all know that Spider-Man always holds back, he prob was holding back even more since he was fighting Cap
Originally posted by Metalmanx
I just wanna say...the only problem with this is that Spidey doesn't just have superior strength over Cap. He also has...well, superior everything, save fighting skills. But fighting skills become a non-factor when every other physical stat greatly trumps your opponent's. And it's not like Spidey is a lumbering moron either. He knows how to fight, has his own advanced style of fighting, and can easily compensate for someone with superior fighting skills.Spider-Man wins this, 9/10. Unless, I dunno, an asteroid hits the Earth and kills everyone. I guess I'd give it to Cap then.
If an asteriod kills everyone wouldn't that kill cap too, so cap wouldnt win it would be a draw 😛
Not much of a fight but may aswell post it !!!
Afterwards Spidey realises its for the best and swings off.
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