Exar Kun & DE Sidious vs. Ragnos & Sadow

Originally posted by Borbarad
What people commonly ignore regarding this topic is, that we're talking about force powers here and not some physical powers and "tools" able to use them.

So...to create an artifact that is capable of performing a force drain - you must know the "force drain" before. And once you know the technique the "scale" in which it's used is irrelevant. It makes much more sense then simply stating he doesn't know a certain technique but still manages to create a tool which is capable of performing it.

And please.
If some weakass freak like Brakiss can create Solar flares with almost no training, I guess a century old Sith Lord can pull it of.
If Aleema Keto can shoot some energy beams out of her hands that desintegrate flesh - I'm pretty sure that Sadow can do that too.
And if Sidious without any artifacts used can "trap" and "use" the life-energy of the people on Byss, I don't see any reason why Kun shouldn't be able to do the same.

Good points.

Originally posted by Escape81 [/i]
No, you cannot.

I'm afraid that you have nothing but an assumption and an opinion on your side, whereas my side possesses proof that Sadow and Kun did not use these blasts without the assistance of an amulet. Furthermore, we have already proven that Sadow required his ship to perform his other feat - so why wouldn't the same apply here?

What do you mean I have opinion and assumption? I have an opinion based on logical deduction, which could say a lot more for your apparent absence of proof is proof of absence. And as Nai said, they would have to know certain techniques to be able to put them into the tools, especially the force drain. Things like the amulet blasts are obviously inconclusive and less logical in terms of known abilities, but it is VERY logical to state Sadow likely had a defense for it while Kun did not, so I don't get what's wrong here.

I don't operate on just ironclad proof, but what proof I have overrules your opinion. I tried to explain this concept to GM Nebaris. Just because he has an opinion and so-called "logical deduction" does not mean that either of those things overrules evidence.

And what is your ironclad proof? Absence of proof?

So, Motoko, Lightsnake, and myself have proof - whereas you and GM Nebaris do not.

I resent that comment because I think I provided a more than interesting first post on this topic. Do not compare me to Nebaris and do not tell me you have logical arguments and I do not. "Because they didn't show they could use their abilities without amulets means they can't, is NOT proof.

Until such a time that you can prove that Sadow didn't require the amulet blasts or that Ragnos didn't require his scepter, then logical deduction indicates that they required these two artifacts to perform the feats in question. Why else would they need them?

What do you mean I have opinion and assumption? I have an opinion based on logical deduction, which could say a lot more for your apparent absence of proof is proof of absence. And as Nai said, they would have to know certain techniques to be able to put them into the tools, especially the force drain. Things like the amulet blasts are obviously inconclusive and less logical in terms of known abilities, but it is VERY logical to state Sadow likely had a defense for it while Kun did not, so I don't get what's wrong here.

Know certain techniques? I never denied that they would. Indeed, they would have to. But that does not mean that they themselves knew the exact technique without the amulets!

You keep bringing up on how "well, they were used to record history". If that were just the case, then Sadow nor Ragnos would never have needed to use them in single combat. Wouldn't you agree?

Especially if, as you say, they could do it all on their own.

And what is your ironclad proof? Absence of proof?

The absence of proof is not proof of absence crap is getting very annoying. Furthermore, quit using it as some sort of shield. It may be very well that I am right, which is why they were never seen using these feats without the amulets.

Think about it like that.

I resent that comment because I think I provided a more than interesting first post on this topic. Do not compare me to Nebaris and do not tell me you have logical arguments and I do not. "Because they didn't show they could use their abilities without amulets means they can't, is NOT proof.

Nor is the "absence of proof is not proof of absence" maneuver that you are fond of using! In fact, I can use that same little excuse to say that DE Sidious possessed the ability to drain the Force on Ragnos's level - as we've proven that he has more knowledge than Ragnos did. I can also say that he could perform Nihilius's feats - or Traya's.

You can't disprove it. "absence of proof is not proof of absence".

While you asking me to prove a negative is a logical fallacy, the fact that you're asking me to prove something we know nothing about also doesn't work in this argument. And again as Nai said, these guys HAD to know certain techniques to put into the scepter. I keep explaining to you that the amulets and talismans were multipurpose tools, that channeled force attacks AND recorded history through them. I would like for you to tell me how that is illogical right there, while that is VERY likely why they used amulets and talismans. I think your absence of proof as your focal point is ridiculous, especially when you tell me I have no argument, just opinions.

I never denied that they didn't know something of these techniques. But that they could do it themselves makes absolutely no sense!

If Sadow used these amulets for just "recording history", they would not be needed in single combat. Especially when that would make him dependant on the amulet itself.

Furthermore, if they have to "channel" their abilities - it only speaks to prove that they could not replicate the same feats themselves.

So...to create an artifact that is capable of performing a force drain - you must know the "force drain" before. And once you know the technique the "scale" in which it's used is irrelevant. It makes much more sense then simply stating he doesn't know a certain technique but still manages to create a tool which is capable of performing it.

No offense Nai, but I'd like for you to explain to me why, then, they'd require these tools in the first place. If I possess the ability to cut diamond without any help - I wouldn't use a laser. If I possess the ability to fly - I wouldn't require an airplane. If I had my perfect vision - I wouldn't require contact lenses.

I never denied that Ragnos didn't know Force drain, and it is equally illogical to state that he knew the exact technique, but then created a tool for it.

So, I'd say he knew the Force drain, but nothing near that magnitude.

Especially when that tool could be taken and used against him. Especially when that would make him dependant on that tool. Especially when, otherwise, he'd have zero motivation to build it.

Originally posted by Escape81 [/i]
Know certain techniques? I never denied that they would. Indeed, they would have to. But that does [B]not mean that they themselves knew the exact technique without the amulets!

It is possible but you're saying that your specific opinion is more logical than mine, I fail to see how.

You keep bringing up on how "well, they were used to record history". If that were just the case, then Sadow nor Ragnos would never have needed to use them in single combat. Wouldn't you agree?

What do you think is the goal of multipurpose tools? Convenience? Anyhow that is just an assumption. Could be logical could be not, depends on how you see it.

The absence of proof is not proof of absence crap is getting very annoying. Furthermore, quit using it as some sort of shield. It may be very well that I am right, which is why they were never seen using these feats without the amulets.

Stop using it as a shield? I'll stop using it when you stop telling me that "Because they used amulets, etc, means they couldn't do things without their amulets otherwise they wouldn't need them".

Nor is the "absence of proof is not proof of absence" maneuver that you are fond of using! In fact, I can use that same little excuse to say that DE Sidious possessed the ability to drain the Force on Ragnos's level - as we've proven that he has more knowledge than Ragnos did. I can also say that he could perform Nihilius's feats - or Traya's.

You can't disprove it. "absence of proof is not proof of absence".

Uh disprove what? We know DE Sidious had the force drain and did possess it on the level of Ragnos because his scepter and Sidious do the EXACT same thing. But course you're going to say Ragnos didn't know it at that level when it's clear he did otherwise he wouldn't be able to create that scepter. Not to mention it's also a sword, hence my Multipurpose convenience theory.

If Sadow used these amulets for just "recording history", they would not be needed in single combat. Especially when that would make him dependant on the amulet itself.

Who said they were just for recording history? I said MULTIPURPOSE dude, it is logical to assume they used it to channel the force, record history, decorative garments, etc. It does seem convenient.

Furthermore, if they have to "channel" their abilities - it only speaks to prove that they could not replicate the same feats themselves.

Is that right? And what do you mean they HAVE to channel their abilities, I said they could, and creating the amulet is a good way of doing so. Like I said, I am not arguing the likes of the amulet blasts or the tearing the core from the sun, but you show me someone else that had an ability on that level. The fact of the matter is that they KNEW these techniques(some may not be on that level and some may be, we don't really know for sure).

Originally posted by Escape81
[B]No offense Nai, but I'd like for you to explain to me why, then, they'd require these tools in the first place. If I possess the ability to cut diamond without any help - I wouldn't use a laser. If I possess the ability to fly - I wouldn't require an airplane. If I had my perfect vision - I wouldn't require contact lenses.

Like a said, they could be multipurpose tools for convenience, or for the simple fact that they were sith alchemists and they practiced sith magic, and this is the way they did it. Does it mean they didn't know the techniques? Hardly. But my assumption in this matter is as good as yours.

I never denied that Ragnos didn't know Force drain, and it is equally illogical to state that he knew the exact technique, but then created a tool for it.

Why is it equally illogical to state that he knew that force drain? Nihilus and Traya were both on Malachor V before they learned it, but somehow it's illogical to assume Ragnos who possessed a frightening grasp of the darkside(which is somewhat ambiguous but would make sense if you consider certain force abilities) could know the technique? And again his scepter turns into a sword, so I find that very convenient if anything.

[QUOTE=7004543]Especially when that tool could be taken and used against him. Especially when that would make him dependant on that tool. Especially when, otherwise, he'd have zero motivation to build it.

I actually just thought of something: what Nai says makes sense, so do you not think it's possible that they just used their amulets and items so that they could save time and energy? Maybe through the amulets, they could instantly use the technique rather then having to take time and prepare. And maybe while they could have performed these techniques without the amulets, maybe it required a lot of energy and was very tiring to perform, thus they used the amulets so the technique would not ware them down. Does this make sense?

Originally posted by GM Nebaris
I actually just thought of something: what Nai says makes sense, so do you not think it's possible that they just used their amulets and items so that they could save time and energy? Maybe through the amulets, they could instantly use the technique rather then having to take time and prepare. And maybe while they could have performed these techniques without the amulets, maybe it required a lot of energy and was very tiring to perform, thus they used the amulets so the technique would not ware them down. Does this make sense?

Wow Nebaris, surprisingly that makes perfect sense, especially in the case of sith illusions. We know Sadow could create a whole fleet, now whether or not he needed the meditation sphere is inconclusive(most likely he didn't since it was only a meditation sphere). We see DN Luke I think in the Black Fleet Crisis do the exact same thing but with 1 ship, and afterwards he looked like he aged trying to do what Sadow did rather easily. This is your first useful post since I've been here.

What the hell?

You're making absolutely zero sense.

Originally posted by Escape81
What the [B]hell?

You're making absolutely zero sense. [/B]

Me?

I'm just arguing that maybe they just made the amulets out of convenience.

ragnos and sadow take this.........
ragnos has a difficult time with palps (assuming he doesn't use the cleverness that brought him to power and bow down) but eventuallydefeatshim
sadow owns kun by making him fight illusions then decapitatin him while kun aint looking

While I would love to use the illusions bit for Sadow's advantage, I doubt he's going to be able to create them and fight either Kun or Palpatine at the same time. Anyways Escape you should reread my theory as to why they use the amulet. For once GM makes sense in terms of convenience.

EDIT

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
While I would love to use the illusions bit for Sadow's advantage, I doubt he's going to be able to create them and fight either Kun or Palpatine at the same time. Anyways Escape you should reread my theory as to why they use the amulet. For once GM makes sense in terms of convenience.

lol dude stop saying for once. When I want to, I can make perfectly valid points.

EDIT

Conveniance?

Okay. I'd love to see this theory. Hope you have something to back it up.

EDIT

Originally posted by Darth Ownage

Read the first post, please. There are "rules" and "guidelines" to this thread, as well as four rounds. Furthermore, back up what you say, please.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wow Nebaris, surprisingly that makes perfect sense, especially in the case of sith illusions. We know Sadow could create a whole fleet, now whether or not he needed the meditation sphere is inconclusive(most likely he didn't since it was only a meditation sphere). We see DN Luke I think in the Black Fleet Crisis do the exact same thing but with 1 ship, and afterwards he looked like he aged trying to do what Sadow did rather easily. This is your first useful post since I've been here.

This is getting ridiculous. DS, I would strongly suggest that you think about what you say. As I recall, you confessed that the amulets "channeled" and "augmented" Sadow's and Kun's latent powers to create the amulet blasts. That in itself just adds more ammunition to my argument.

Think about what the meditation sphere did. It, like the amulets and Sadow's ship - focused and augmented Sadow's energy in order to perform the feat required. In the case of Luke, he had no artifacts to assist him - which is why such a usage of the Force seemed to age him exponentially.

Now, unless you're going to argue that Sadow > Luke (in essence, committing virtual suicide as far as credibility is concerned), how are you going to explain that?

It's rather simple. Sadow had access to technology which augmented and focused his power and allowed him to do the feats responsible.

Originally posted by Escape81
This is getting ridiculous. DS, I would [B]strongly suggest that you think about what you say. As I recall, you confessed that the amulets "channeled" and "augmented" Sadow's and Kun's latent powers to create the amulet blasts. That in itself just adds more ammunition to my argument.

Think about what the meditation sphere did. It, like the amulets and Sadow's ship - focused and augmented Sadow's energy in order to perform the feat required. In the case of Luke, he had no artifacts to assist him - which is why such a usage of the Force seemed to age him exponentially.

Now, unless you're going to argue that Sadow > Luke (in essence, committing virtual suicide as far as credibility is concerned), how are you going to explain that?

It's rather simple. Sadow had access to technology which augmented and focused his power and allowed him to do the feats responsible. [/B]

You're right, because Sadow created whole fleets with an amulet. And his meditation sphere? It was nothing more than that, unless of course he should be on the battlefield creating monstrosities instead of sitting quietly in his chambers and doing it.

And because character X created a greater feat or a certain feat on a greater scale does not make him better than character Y