Originally posted by Lightsnakeyeah we know but hentai plus raging darkside/horny want-it-can't-have-it-as-jedi-do-whatever-as-sith manlyman and palps is out one Exar Kun
If people wanna play the illusions game, Palpatine's a feaking master of quey'tek and doppleganger...meaning he's damn, damn good at illusions. and he can cut himself off from the other's senses and give them multiple targets
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You're right, because Sadow created whole fleets with an amulet. And his meditation sphere? It was nothing more than that, unless of course he should be on the battlefield creating monstrosities instead of sitting quietly in his chambers and doing it.And because character X created a greater feat or a certain feat on a greater scale does not make him better than character Y
He only performed that certain feat with the assistance of an amulet.
Originally posted by Escape81
Conveniance?Okay. I'd love to see this theory. Hope you have something to [B]back it up
. [/B]
Dude, the thing is, in your thread in the EU section, you claimed that the only explanation for Sadow and Ragnos creating and using those amulets is because they couldn't cause as much destruction without them. that is very illogical, as there are a number of other plausible explanations, such as the convenience factor.
Originally posted by Escape81
He only [B]performed that certain feat with the assistance of an amulet. [/B]
He created an army of illusions with the amulet? Interesting. I didn't know that from his "I must concentrate and use the forbidden sith ways" dialogue. And I've provided a lot of reasons as to why they needed the amulets while you've provided the "they use them so theres no reason to think they can go without them" logic.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
Dude, the thing is, in your thread in the EU section, you claimed that the only explanation for Sadow and Ragnos creating and using those amulets is because they couldn't cause as much destruction without them. that is very illogical, as there are a number of other plausible explanations, such as the convenience factor.
No. What is illogical is your unsupported assumption that Ragnos and Sadow could do all of the same feats themselves, without any help or assistance from these artifacts.
What did they carry them around for, then? Fashion trend? Which Sith Lord had the bigger bling?
Random Sith Lord X: Dude, why the hell are you carrying around that crap if you can perform these uber powers without them? I mean, especially when they could possibly be taken from you and used against you. Kind've illogical, don't you think?
Sadow: Nah. The reason I carry this weapon that could be uber powerful in someone else's hands - and even though I've never been seen using these powers without the amulets - I just carry them around for a fashion statement.
Ragnos: Hell... I haven't ever been witnessed using any Force power, and yet everyone assumes I can do the same thing that my scepter can myself.
Cool.
Sorry, DS. But if you think your theory that "they could perform these tricks without any help from the amulets, even though they've never been seen doing it without them, and even though Kun never used an amulet blast before he got ahold of Sadow's amulets" is logical, then you're dreaming.
Originally posted by Escape81
No. What is illogical is your unsupported assumption that Ragnos and Sadow could do all of the same feats themselves, without any help or assistance from these artifacts.What did they carry them around for, then? Fashion trend? Which Sith Lord had the bigger bling?
Random Sith Lord X: Dude, why the hell are you carrying around that crap if you can perform these uber powers without them? I mean, especially when they could possibly be taken from you and used against you. Kind've illogical, don't you think?
Sadow: Nah. The reason I carry this weapon that could be uber powerful in someone else's hands - and even though I've never been seen using these powers without the amulets - I just carry them around for a fashion statement.
Ragnos: Hell... I haven't ever been witnessed using any Force power, and yet everyone assumes I can do the same thing that my scepter can myself.
Cool.
Sorry, DS. But if you think your theory that "they could perform these tricks without any help from the amulets, even though they've never been seen doing it without them, and even though Kun never used an amulet blast before he got ahold of Sadow's amulets" is logical, then you're dreaming.
Here's is what is logical escape. Certain abilities like blowing up the sun and amulet blasts require the amulets. HOWEVER, we see Nihilus and Traya using a technique DERIVED from the ancient sith, so it is LOGICAL to assume that if Traya and Nihilus can learn the technique, then the Ancient Sith knew it regardless of amulets. You're telling me that they studied ancient sith knowledge and in that knowledge the ancient sith said "We do not know this technique without the amulets so if you want to use this you must create an amulet"? Come on Escape.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Here's is what is logical escape. Certain abilities like blowing up the sun and amulet blasts require the amulets. HOWEVER, we see Nihilus and Traya using a technique DERIVED from the ancient sith, so it is LOGICAL to assume that if Traya and Nihilus can learn the technique, then the Ancient Sith knew it regardless of amulets. You're telling me that they studied ancient sith knowledge and in that knowledge the ancient sith said "We do not know this technique without the amulets so if you want to use this you must create an amulet"? Come on Escape.
Nihilius took his ability to new heights, performing feats without the assistance of any Ancient Sith artifact. Most of DE Sidious's information and knowledge derived from the Ancient Sith. However, his Force Storm blows theirs to hell and back, not to mention that - when all's said and done - he has more knowledge than they do.
Point being, the Ancient Sith possess the basics as far as the draining, blasts, and so forth. But not on the magnitude at which the amulets, scepter, and artifacts gave them.
That makes the most sense.
Originally posted by Escape81
Nihilius took his ability to new heights, performing feats without the assistance of any Ancient Sith artifact. Most of DE Sidious's information and knowledge derived from the Ancient Sith. However, his Force Storm blows theirs to hell and back, not to mention that - when all's said and done - he has more knowledge than they do.Point being, the Ancient Sith possess the basics as far as the draining, blasts, and so forth. But not on the magnitude at which the amulets, scepter, and artifacts gave them.
That makes the most sense.
That makes the most sense to YOU. Because again, you are saying they have only the basics, and that is nothing but an assumption. Again I'm telling you that because both Traya and Nihilus were able to come up with the same technique, although one is on a greater scale as a result of becoming a wound in the force, while studying on the same planet with ancient sith knowledge, then it is obvious that certain techniques created by the ancient sith did not require artifacts. Unless of course, Traya and Nihilus>Ancient Sith. And again maybe his force storm blows them to hell and back, but some of their techniques blow him away too. As for him knowing more than them, not sure if that's quite accurate considering that he got EVERYTHING from them and created more. Then again that might mean he knows more.
That makes the most sense to YOU. Because again, you are saying they have only the basics, and that is nothing but an assumption.
Do you recall, earlier, when I advised you to be careful of what you say? You would do well to adhere to it; because all of what you have claimed is classified as an "assumption" as well.
Your double-standards won't work with me, DS. I suggest that you think very clearly and plot another route in this debate.
Again I'm telling you that because both Traya and Nihilus were able to come up with the same technique, although one is on a greater scale as a result of becoming a wound in the force, while studying on the same planet with ancient sith knowledge, then it is obvious that certain techniques created by the ancient sith did not require artifacts. Unless of course, Traya and Nihilus>Ancient Sith.
Traya's version of the Force drain maneuver is considerable. One of the strongest we've seen. Nihilius's, even moreso. He could raze planets. As could Palpatine. Unaided, undaunted, without the assistance of any artifact. Unlike Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos. In that attack alone, yes, he is naturally superior to both Sadow and Ragnos. As Traya herself may be.
Furthermore, as to the Traya and Nihilius > Ancient Sith, it is arguable. Yes, I would put Nihilius on par with the likes of Luke, Exar, and Palpatine - if only for his single assault. Other than that, he is a virtual unknown. He may be a mere amateur with one single gifted attack.
And again maybe his force storm blows them to hell and back, but some of their techniques blow him away too.
Hmm... really? Oh, yes. I forgot. Their techniques - which may only be harnessed with the assistance of technology. Hmm. I wonder what terrifying visage of power that Palpatine would become if we gave him Sadow's artifacts.
As for him knowing more than them, not sure if that's quite accurate considering that he got EVERYTHING from them and created more. Then again that might mean he knows more.
Yes... I suggest you take the advice above in and adhere to it. Think about what you state, before you state it. But to answer your question, no.
He got everything of what they knew, which is only most of what he knew. He, as we have proven, created and discovered new knowledge, which puts his base of knowledge above the Ancient Sith's.
I'm going to erase everything you just said to prove a point. You think my assumption is illogical and yours is logical. Why? What I base my assumptions are the likes of Malachor V that gave both parties spiffy powers, but all of a sudden the ancient sith DONT know the abilities without the artifacts and Traya and Nihilus both magically learned them. Also we have seen Sadow create illusions on a massive scale proving that the ancient sith only REALLY need the amulets to do somethng insane like amulet blasts and tearing the core from the sun. Unless of course youre going to say they need them to use force lightning and grip, push, etc. I'm going to stick with my assumption because I'm at least backing it up to some extent. You're saying "Well we don't see them NOT using their amulets so that must mean they can't do most things without them!"
I'm going to erase everything you just said to prove a point.
You think my assumption is illogical and yours is logical.
I'm glad that you've realized that that is all you have. An assumption. An unsupported one, I might add. Yours is suddenly "logical deduction", but mine is just an "opinion"? Think carefully.
Furthermore, don't erase it. Refute it. If you can.
Why? What I base my assumptions are the likes of Malachor V that gave both parties spiffy powers, but all of a sudden the ancient sith DONT know the abilities without the artifacts and Traya and Nihilus both magically learned them.
Ah, need I go back and quote myself on what I said on this subject? I told you that both Ragnos possessed the knowledge of Force drain - but apparently not on that magnitude. I also believe that I said that Sadow possessed the latent ability to perform the amulet blasts - but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet, thus rendering him unable to activate the feat without it.
I never said that they lacked the knowledge. Just the power to harness it. Ragnos may be the most powerful of his time. But that doesn't mean that he possessed the power to raze entire planets of the Force by himself.
Nihilius did. Which is why, if we knew more about him, I'd rank him - easily - as one of the Top Five most powerful Force users that we've seen. Alas, we don't, and I won't base Nihilius's "position of power" due to one ability that - apparently - wasn't always effective.
Try not to twist my words.
Also we have seen Sadow create illusions on a massive scale proving that the ancient sith only REALLY need the amulets to do somethng insane like amulet blasts and tearing the core from the sun.[/ QUOTE]With the assistance of the meditation chamber, a form of technology. Oh, and I'll make sure that you remember this, from now on. You just admitted to it.
[QUOTE]Unless of course youre going to say they need them to use force lightning and grip, push, etc.
Creating "massive illusions" and performing commonplace Force abilities are to fundamentally different things. I said that the Ancient Sith required technology to augment and focus power to perform these spectacular feats.
I'm going to stick with my assumption because I'm at least backing it up to some extent.
Really?
"Oh no. Sadow needed the amulets to augment and channel his abilities, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't have done it without them. In fact, it makes more logical sense, as if he did it all the time without the amulets. Oh, wait... they were never seen doing it. And, yet, some how, I'm going to put this guy on par with Exar Kun? Who performed nifty abilities without assistance of technology - save for Sadow's very amulets which he used to create blasts? Or, better yet, Emperor Palpatine - who did all the crap that Ragnos did, possessed more knowledge then any of the Ancient Sith, and pulled off a devastatingly powerful whacky feat! Oh yes, and he did all of it without technology. Wow. Oh, and then I will admit that Sadow needed the amulets a post later, and then deny it in the post after that! Woo-hoo!"
You're saying "Well we don't see them NOT using their amulets so that must mean they can't do most things without them!"
Mm-hmm. And you'd think that that may be a clue...
'I also believe that I said that Sadow possessed the latent ability to perform the amulet blasts - but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet, thus rendering him unable to activate the feat without it.'
I basically said the exact same thing, and you called it illogical.
Originally posted by GM Nebaris
'I also believe that I said that Sadow possessed the latent ability to perform the amulet blasts - but could not do it at will or that easily without the assistance of an amulet, thus rendering him unable to activate the feat without it.'I basically said the exact same thing, and you called it illogical.
No. You said that they could do it without the amulet, and merely used it for conveniance. I said that without the amulet, they are unable to activate those feats.
While I'm going to write a novel in a few hours on this as a rebuttal for escape I need to understand something. Escape, Nebaris for once makes sense, but are you trying to tell me that everybody that got techniques from the ancient sith could do it without the use of amulets but the creators of said techniques need their amulets because that's nearly all we've seen?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
While I'm going to write a novel in a few hours on this as a rebuttal for escape I need to understand something. Escape, Nebaris for once makes sense, but are you trying to tell me that everybody that got techniques from the ancient sith could do it without the use of amulets but the creators of said techniques need their amulets because that's nearly all we've seen?
Hold up with the 'for once' stuff.
Originally posted by Escape81
Traya's version of the Force drain maneuver is considerable. One of the strongest we've seen. Nihilius's, even moreso. He could raze planets. As could Palpatine. Unaided, undaunted, without the assistance of any artifact. Unlike Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos. In that attack alone, yes, he is naturally superior to both Sadow and Ragnos. As Traya herself may be.
Lmao. This is considerable funny, Escape. You are really going to tell us that somebody that descriped Ragnos grasp on the Dark Side as "frightening" comes anywhere close to his force abilities ? The same person that descriped herself as a "child" compared to the Ancients. The same person that said that "there is no strength" in Nihilus ability because he can't really controle it since it works like "hunger" ? That Traya ?
And let's also ingore the fact that some minor female Sith was able to destroy all life on Ambria with a single force pulse. Maybe she pulled that ability out of her ass instead of learning it from the Ancient Sith to whose Empire the planet belonged before...
Hmm... really? Oh, yes. I forgot. Their techniques - which may only be harnessed with the assistance of technology. Hmm. I wonder what terrifying visage of power that Palpatine would become if we gave him Sadow's artifacts.
Except you totally fail to give me proof that this "technology" did give any "assistance" to them. Is it somewhere mentioned that any of this artifacts made a force user more powerful or multiplied his force powers ? No ? I love it how Aleema Keto can desintegrate flesh with a Sith Magic attack but Sadow shouldn't be able to do that. I love how some female Sith can destroy the entire life on Ambria, but some of the Ancients wouldn't be able to do so.
Not that this dumb discussion does make any sense because it's stupid to exclude artifacts that people always wore from their actual power base in the context of versus fights.