Marka Ragnos versus Shimrra

That's not logical deduction at all, sorry Escape , so let me explain to you how.

Ah, I am glad to know that only you can deem what is logical deduction. I see that you've come down with the same disease that plagues many debators these days: logic-god syndrome. The condition in which one thinks that one's opinion or one's verdict supercedes another's. Especially when that person (unlike GM Nebaris) has not been shown to defy canon or defy authority.

#1. Brand has no idea how many Jedi it will take

Considering how Brand is a surviver of Order 66 and that DE Sidious was the one who mortally wounded him, he would be in a position to accurately judge how powerful Palpatine is. Say, unlike Luke, when he made the "judgment" regarding Marka Ragnos. 😉

#2. Since he knows and we all know DE Sidious is uber powerful, why not use them all, better to be safe than sorry.

Mm-hmm. Brand says: "The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that."

I believe that The Force - being omnipresent and omnipotent - would have a fair assessment of one of it's prime users (Palpatine). So quit trying to undermine Palpatine here. And, furthermore, say you're right. Let's say that they all did it "just in case". Consider then that they wouldn't want to take the chance.

It's the same with how I argued for Exar Kun, and I understood the fact that they rallied all the Jedi against him, but it didn't necessarily take ALL the jedi to defeat him. Understanding yet?

It's moreso illogical to assume that it would take only a handful.

Another factor: Brand was literally able to see into the Emperor's soul at that point...he could see exactly how powerful he was and how evil

No Gebaris, that's quite different.

Is it? Really... Double-standards strike again!

Luke said it would take the whole order to even contend with a living Ragnos.

Amazing. As we know that Luke is such an Ancient Sith expert! I mean, lol, he has so much information to work with on them...

He didn't say how many he was going to use, he said how many it will take.

Who are you, Ron White?

If it's going to take all of them, he's going to use all of them. Furthermore, as I said. Luke knows next to nothing about Ragnos. Point moot.

On the other hand(and I hate arguing against Ragnos), it is likely that Luke knew very little about Ragnos, and if if he knew about Ragnos it would be very limited knowledge, so it would have been Luke's assumption more than anything.

Aww... you hate arguing against Ragnos? Rofl. And you want to accuse me of giving Palpatine a "verbal fellatio"? Cute. Ask anyone here. I've argued against Palpatine before. On many occasions. Hell, I even recall doing it recently against Traya... curious...

It is likely that he knew little about Ragnos???

Considering how Emperor Palpatine destroyed almost all of the Jedi's Archives and information, I'd guess so.

So, we have Brand (who's experienced Palpatine first hand) and The Force deciding how to keep Palpatine in check versus Luke (who never had any contact with Ragnos) passing judgment?

Rofl... oh yeah. Real logical.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Another factor: Brand was literally able to see into the Emperor's soul at that point...he could see exactly how powerful he was and how evil

Yup.

Lol, read the post above this. DS's double standards strike again!

#1. Yes I'm Ron White
#2. I corrected myself after I made that statement, perhaps you should read further.

If you're Ron White, that's quite disgusting. The man is a slob!

Originally posted by Escape81
Ah, I am glad to know that only you can deem what is logical deduction. I see that you've come down with the same disease that plagues many debators these days: logic-god syndrome. The condition in which one thinks that one's opinion or one's verdict supercedes another's. Especially when that person (unlike GM Nebaris) has not been shown to defy canon or defy authority.

Considering how Brand is a surviver of Order 66 and that DE Sidious was the one who mortally wounded him, he would be in a position to accurately judge how powerful Palpatine is. Say, unlike Luke, when he made the "judgment" regarding Marka Ragnos. 😉

Mm-hmm. Brand says: "[B]The Force and the Jedi before us will see to that."

I believe that The Force - being omnipresent and omnipotent - would have a fair assessment of one of it's prime users (Palpatine). So quit trying to undermine Palpatine here. And, furthermore, say you're right. Let's say that they all did it "just in case". Consider then that they wouldn't want to take the chance.

It's moreso illogical to assume that it would take only a handful. [/B]

And again, your example is equivalent to the Exar Kun example, it was never directly stated how many Jedi were needed, but how many they were going to use. You specifically said that the text said how many they needed to stop Palpatine, so you would be arguing with the text, in which case you are wrong. Now if you want to call it a logical assumption, then maybe you have something, or maybe not.

Originally posted by Motoko Sama
If you're Ron White, that's quite disgusting. The man is a slob!

Funniest storyteller in the world today.. All man all the time?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And again, your example is equivalent to the Exar Kun example, it was never directly stated how many Jedi were needed, but how many they were going to use. You specifically said that the text said how many they needed to stop Palpatine, so you would be arguing with the text, in which case you are wrong. Now if you want to call it a logical assumption, then maybe you have something, or maybe not.

No, my example holds far more weight than yours. We've already proven that Luke's assessment of Ragnos is without any base, as he never - not even in the end - ever came into contact with Ragnos.

Whereas Brand did with Palpatine, and The Force is "omnipresent".

Brand's assessment > Luke's assessment.

The Force > Brand's assessment.

The Force > Luke's assessment.

Luke says how many it would take.
Brand says how many he's going to use. NOWHERE does that say how many are needed, as you claimed earlier that was stated in the text. So your example isn't relevant because you were specifically arguing with the text. Now if this your logical deduction(Which it should be considering the fact that you won't argue with text), how are you going to say that you Brand knows how many were required, when he specifically stated how many he was going to use, as in better safe than sorry which is MORE logical than your example? And if you stick with that, the same example would go for the defeat of Exar Kun. They rallied ALL the Jedi against him knowing the threat they're facing. Does that mean it would take ALL the Jedi to defeat him? Not necessarily, but better safe than sorry.

Luke says how many it would take.

Aww... but I'm sorry... Luke has no basis for his assessment... 🙁

Brand says how many he's going to use. NOWHERE does that say how many are needed, as you claimed earlier that was stated in the text. So your example isn't relevant because you were specifically arguing with the text. Now if this your logical deduction(Which it should be considering the fact that you won't argue with text), how are you going to say that you Brand knows how many were required, when he specifically stated how many he was going to use, as in better safe than sorry which is MORE logical than your example? And if you stick with that, the same example would go for the defeat of Exar Kun. They rallied ALL the Jedi against him knowing the threat they're facing. Does that mean it would take ALL the Jedi to defeat him? Not necessarily, but better safe than sorry.

Erm... how is your "better safe than sorry" example more logical? Brand, unlike Luke, confronted his enemy - and was even possessed by his spirit at one point. Luke never had any confrontation with Ragnos.

Thus it is logical to deduce that Luke, in the end, knew jack about Ragnos. 🙂

Thus it is logical to deduce that Brand knew how best to assess Palpatine's abilities, as would the Force itself. 😉

I'm sorry escape, you are arguing against text. But let me try this out since you're adamant about this.

Brand said he will use ALL the Jedi to make sure Palpatine stays gone, NOT stop them. Now, why did he NOT say how much was needed? Oh, that's because he couldn't possibly quantify the power of ALL the jedi. Could you? I didn't think so. Therefore it's more logical to assume that it's more safe than sorry, because he couldn't quantify the power of ALL the Jedi, and because it's more convenient to get EVERYBODY, ensuring the death of Palpatine. Luke didn't know anything about Ragnos, but he stated it would take the entire academy to destroy him. Again, better safe than sorry. The Jedi rallied everybody again Exar Kun because they have SEEN his power, yet they do not know how many it would take, so they gathered everybody to ensure his death. AGAIN, better safe than sorry. So I'm afraid your little example that conveniently boosts Sidious doesn't work. The end.

Originally posted by Escape81
Piss poor logic.

Emperor Palpatine was both physically stronger than Yoda and had an equal grasp of the Force, but was unable to overcome Yoda himself in any of their saber locks.

Ragnos is an unknown. While he is physically powerful, you have no proof to indicate that he is physically stronger than Shimmra.

Never once did I mention Ragnos was physically stronger than Shimrra. I merely stated that a conclusion cannot be made about how strong Shimrra is relative to Ragnos. It is a variable, since Ragnos himself also possessed great strength.

Shimrra does not have the advantage of fighting a tired force user. Also he was resistant against a lightsaber.

Ragnos' bastard sword on the other hand can generate enough momentum (a lot more than a near massless lightsaber) to at least knock out Shimra.

I also stated that Ragnos has the advantage of hurling objects at his enemy. A couple of massive boulders and a bastard sword wound to the head is most likely going to give Shimrra a run for his money.

Overall Shimrra is a strange one, whether he wins or loses depends almost completely on the opponents skill with the lightsaber, not the force.

The Vong's regeneration is based on the power and speed of the lightsaber hit. We know Ragnos is VERY powerful so it's also unlikely Shimrra is going to regenerate after every blow. Not to mention he's not immune to certain manifestations of the force.

Just everything Ragnos can throw at him

very heavy boulders

Originally posted by zephiel7
very heavy boulders

Ragnos, as I said, would most likely win. But he'd have to use indirect Force attacks.

Originally posted by zephiel7
very heavy boulders

While Ragnos may not directly be able to do jack to him, he could possibly chuck stuff at him via the force or just crush the floor underneath Shimmra for instance.

Look, if DE Sidious started launching a force storm, or Exar Kun started blasting at him with his energy beams, I doubt that either of them could affect Shimrra. They do however have other (I agree) have other indirect ways of killing Shimrra.

A lightsaber in the case of Shimra (who is resistant to such a weapon) just would not do the job. You need a good old fashioned greatsword, to knock the bastard out.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Look, if DE Sidious started launching a force storm, or Exar Kun started blasting at him with his energy beams, I doubt that either of them could affect Shimrra. They do however have other (I agree) have other indirect ways of killing Shimrra.

A lightsaber in the case of Shimra (who is resistant to such a weapon) just would not do the job. You need a good old fashioned greatsword, to knock the bastard out.

No, it isn't likely that they would effect Shimmra.

But, Exar Kun could blast debris that would fall on Shimmra or Sidious could use the Force Storm to also cause debris to fall.

Ragnos would just have to use indirect Force attacks. And he'd win.