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Hasnt this been done before. Im sure it has because I made a few enemies thanks to my blatant fanboyism of Count Dooku. Ill try not to argue biased this time. 😄
I think that the sith lords would win, however it would be an extremely long battle and an extremely difficult one. Mace and Dooku are completely on par and so are Sidious and Yoda. So this really doesnt give either team any advantage at all. But, the setting is on the Invisible Hand. This is a ship that Dooku has great knowledge of. He could use this to his advantage like GG did (obviously not in exactly the same way but you get my point) thus giving the sith a very slight advantage.
In terms of lightsaber ability I would say that Dooku is ever so slightly ahead of Mace. He has mastered, perfected and modified Makashi - the lightsaber form that ws bred for duelling. He has also had far more experience with a saber thanks to his age. I would also like to add that Dooku has beaten Mace before - but that was many years ago and we dont know how much either has progressed.
Mace however is very powerful in his own right. He has created and mastered Vapaad - arguably the most difficult form to learn and has not crossed to the dark side because of it. He holds a seat on the jedi council and is regarded as the second best duellist in the order (although we dont know if this includes Dooku or not). He is also very fit and physically strong. But I dont think that this will work to his advantage very much. Dooku is 80+ but is said to have the strength of a 40 year old. He was easily able to take on the wonder duo in AOTC, and damn near bet them again in ROTS. He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.. One of my favourite descriptions in the ROTS novel which shows how Dookus age was a no factor. So with this info in hand I would say that Dooku has the advantage, however slight, in duelling alone.
Force powers is difficult to determine. What we know is that Dooku has knowledge of both the light and dark side of the force - and has been taught by arguably the best users of the two sides of force up to that time. We have seen him effortlessly destroy rooves and shoot force lightning which he can also block with his hands. He can easily throw around generators, balconies, Obi-Wan Kenobi and GG. He was also able to go toe to toe with Yoda and survive - twice
Mace has shown pretty impressive feats as well, like crippling GG with a massive force crush and moving objects that weigh hundreds of tonnes. He is also able to channel his anger into his form without turning to the darkside. He too has been trained by Yoda, but for not as long as Dooku. With this in mind I would again give the slight advantage to the Count.
Sids and Yoda are completely even so they will rely on their respective apprentice to tip the scales imo. This means tha after a very long struggle the Count will defeat Mace and together they will eventually overpower Yoda. Then the Count will sit down and have a martinni like I am about to do now😱
Originally posted by Rampant ox
[B]But, the setting is on the Invisible Hand. This is a ship that Dooku has great knowledge of. He could use this to his advantage like GG did (obviously not in exactly the same way but you get my point) thus giving the sith a very slight advantage.
It didn't give him an advantage against Anakin, so I fail to see how it will "give him in a edge" in this fight. If you're referring to Grievous on Utapau, that's completely different circumstances. The throne room of the Invisible Hand is a shut arena, with no where to run or do anything fancy.
He was easily able to take on the wonder duo in AOTC, and damn near bet them again in ROTS.
Damn near beat them? He beat Obi-Wan, and got his ass handed to him by Anakin.
He was also able to go toe to toe with Yoda and survive - twice
Yes, because he distracted Yoda, and ran away. I could say the same thing, except Mace was able to go one on one with Sidious, and beat him.
Mace has shown pretty impressive feats as well, like crippling GG with a massive force crush and moving objects that weigh hundreds of tonnes. He is also able to channel his anger into his form without turning to the darkside. He too has been trained by Yoda, but for not as long as Dooku. With this in mind I would again give the slight advantage to the Count.
There's also the fact Mace Windu has his Shatterpoint ability, which turned a stalemate of lightsaber dueling against Sidious, into a victory.
Then the Count will sit down and have a martinni like I am about to do now😱
And then Mace Windu and Yoda will sit down, and have some disgusting and vile dry gin, like I'm about to do now.
Originally posted by Advent
It didn't give him an advantage against Anakin, so I fail to see how it will "give him in a edge" in this fight. If you're referring to Grievous on Utapau, that's completely different circumstances. The throne room of the Invisible Hand is a shut arena, with no where to run or do anything fancy.
No I was referring to GG destroying the glass on the invisible hand and launching the escape pods. Dooku will have the edge because it is his ship, thus knowing more about it than any of the other combatants. However it is only a very very slight advantage and certainly not enough to sway the outcome of the fight.
Damn near beat them? He beat Obi-Wan, and got his ass handed to him by Anakin.
He pwned Obi-Wan. I highly disagree that the Count got pwned by Anakin though. They were still meeting each other blow for blow and Anakin only won by physically overpowering an older man. However that is a completely different battle and irrelevant to this discussion.
Yes, because he distracted Yoda, and ran away. I could say the same thing, except Mace was able to go one on one with Sidious, and beat him.
Im not arguing that Dooku would have lost. And yes he did run away - or as I like to put it strategically retreating . My point is that Dooku had the skill to duel Yoda and not be killed on more than one occasion.
There's also the fact Mace Windu has his Shatterpoint ability, which turned a stalemate of lightsaber dueling against Sidious, into a victory.
Absolutely true. Sorry I forgot to mention it.
And then Mace Windu and Yoda will sit down, and have some disgusting and vile dry gin, like I'm about to do now.
😆 Personally I think gin tastes like sh*t but hey, thats just me...
Originally posted by Rampant ox
No I was referring to GG destroying the glass on the invisible hand and launching the escape pods. Dooku will have the edge because it is his ship, thus knowing more about it than any of the other combatants. However it is only a very very slight advantage and certainly not enough to sway the outcome of the fight.
How is an advantage at all? Would Darth Maul have an advantage over Count Dooku if the two fought in a desert plain on Tatooine? No. It's a meaningless advantage really, but whatever Dooku now has a .019% advantage because of this.
He pwned Obi-Wan. I highly disagree that the Count got pwned by Anakin though. They were still meeating each other blow for blow
You'll probably be overjoyed to know that the Revenge of the Sith novel disagrees with you:
His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.
Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half
And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step
The only time Dooku is even able to match Skywalker is when he taunts him. And even then, after Anakin realizes he can use his fear and anger as a weapon, Dooku does not have a chance in the world:
starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
This was before Anakin cut off Dooku's head, as it says - Dooku was already dead, even though the match had not even ended.
and Anakin only won by physically overpowering an older man.
Rampant, contradicting yourself much? Didn't you just post this:
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku is 80+ but is said to have the strength of a 40 year old. He was easily able to take on the wonder duo in AOTC, and damn near bet them again in ROTS. He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.. One of my favourite descriptions in the ROTS novel which shows how Dookus age was a no factor.
Im not arguing that Dooku would have lost. And yes he did run away - or as I like to put it strategically retreating . My point is that Dooku had the skill to duel Yoda and not be killed on more than one occasion.
Okay...? And my point is: who cares? Mace had the skill to duel Sidious, and actually best him in lightsaber combat.
Personally I think gin tastes like sh*t but hey, thats just me...
No, it's not just you, lol. I hate the taste, and I feel like puking everytime I take a shot, or even a sip, lol. I just don't have anything else in my apartment, and I'm about to watch a movie that I hear is better to be watching it while drunk. 😛
Originally posted by Advent
It's a meaningless advantage really, but whatever Dooku now has a .019% advantage because of this.
Hahaha thats still an advantage is it not. 😱
You'll probably be overjoyed to know that the Revenge of the Sith novel disagrees with you:His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head.
Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in halfAnd even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step
The only time Dooku is even able to match Skywalker is when he taunts him. And even then, after Anakin realizes he can use his fear and anger as a weapon, Dooku does not have a chance in the world:
starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
This was before Anakin cut off Dooku's head, as it says - Dooku was already dead, even though the match had not even ended.
Fair enough. Im not going to argue it because it is irrelevant to this conversation. But well done for digging up the information. Kudos to you...
Rampant, contradicting yourself much? Didn't you just post this:
Whoa!! Check and mate. Well done, you win that round 😉
Okay...? And my point is: who cares? Mace had the skill to duel Sidious, and actually best him in lightsaber combat.
Fair enough. But I also recall Mace being thrown out the window with one less arm. But hey, Dooku can duel with yoda and not be killed. Only 1 other people would have a chance at this - Sidious.
No, it's not just you, lol. I hate the taste, and I feel like puking everytime I take a shot, or even a sip, lol. I just don't have anything else in my apartment, and I'm about to watch a movie that I hear is better to be watching it while drunk. 😛
😆 😱 😆
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Mace being thrown out the window with one less arm? Ah yes, the part where Anakin caught him by surprise, and and Sidious shot him with force lightning. Damn that Mace guy must really suck huh?
The way I see it is that he has an unarmed prisoner on the ground. Mace was also under the impression that Sids was eshausted - meaning he was absolutely no threat. However to his right he had the powerful Anakin, emotions brimming and talking about sparing Palps life. Mace knew about their close friendship with each other yet still didnt suspect anything. He went to attack the unarmed prisoner instead of dealing with Anakin. A very foolish decision on Mace's part if I do say so myself...
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hahaha thats still an advantage is it not.
I suppose, lol.
Fair enough. But I also recall Mace being thrown out the window with one less arm. But hey, Dooku can duel with yoda and not be killed. Only 1 other people would have a chance at this - Sidious.
I believe my colleague, Darth Sexy, already addressed this ridiculous point quite nicely actually, ol' chap.
Plus, there's also the fact that it was asked "Why Mace went in there with the 'B Team'?" or something, to which the reply was "You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious". Ask Escape for the exact quote, but that's basically the gist of it.
Originally posted by Advent I suppose, lol.
😎
I believe my colleague, Darth Sexy, already addressed this ridiculous point quite nicely actually, ol' chap.
I adressed the point just before...
Plus, there's also the fact that it was asked "Why Mace went in there with the 'B Team'?" or something, to which the reply was "You have to be either Yoda or Mace to compete with Sidious". Ask Escape for the exact quote, but that's basically the gist of it.
Hey, you learn something new every day. Thanks for the info, I must now go and ponder it and restructure my argument lol...
Originally posted by Rampant ox
The way I see it is that he has an unarmed prisoner on the ground. Mace was also under the impression that Sids was eshausted - meaning he was absolutely no threat. However to his right he had the powerful Anakin, emotions brimming and talking about sparing Palps life. Mace knew about their close friendship with each other yet still didnt suspect anything.
Why would he suspect Anakin to attack and cut off his hand? Anakin was a fellow Jedi, mind you. And Windu really doesn't care for Anakin's thoughts much anyways.
He went to attack the unarmed prisoner instead of dealing with Anakin. A very foolish decision on Mace's part if I do say so myself...
What? That "unarmed prisoner" was blasting Mace with Force lightning. He wasn't like a precious baby kitten now, he was very dangerous; plus, Mace had (as in necessity) to kill Sidious. And what do you mean "deal with Anakin"? I already explained he could care less, and didn't think he'd betray his vows, and really - what was Mace going to do? Tell Anakin to get to bed? Maybe if Anakin would've drawn his saber out and said "You must fight me first", and instead tried to kill Sidious - then yes, it'd be foolish, if I do say so myself.
I guess Sidious is a fool, too? I mean, he'd rather kill an unarmed prisoner (Luke) than deal with Vader (because Luke was practically screaming "I can feel the conflict within you" throughout the entire fight).
Nope, doesn't work like that. Especially for Windu's case.
Originally posted by Advent
[B]Why would he suspect Anakin to attack and cut off his hand? Anakin was a fellow Jedi, mind you. And Windu really doesn't care for Anakin's thoughts much anyways.
Because Anakin had been gaining a unique friendship with Palpatine. One that Mace didnt like at all and one that Mace was very wary of. I think at the point where Anakin said "I need him" Mace should have suspected something...
What? That "unarmed prisoner" was blasting Mace with Force lightning.
Not at that point. Palpatine had supposedly and very convincingly used up all of his energy reserves. He was backed into the corner and appeared completely helpless.
like a precious baby kitten now, he was very dangerous; plus, Mace had (as in necessity) to kill Sidious.
I agree. but im not sating that Mace shouldnt have killed Sids - merely spent more attention on the clearly turmoiled Anakin.
as Mace going to do? Tell Anakin to get to bed?
Lol, that would have been awesome.
would've drawn his saber out and said "You must fight me first", and instead tried to kill Sidious - then yes, it'd be foolish, if I do say so myself.
Well Anakin was clearly on the brink of igniting his saber, especially when he yelled "I need him". At that point a person of Maces wisdom should have knownbetter.
Sidious is a fool, too? I mean, he'd rather kill an unarmed prisoner (Luke) than deal with Vader (because Luke was practically screaming "I can feel the conflict within you" throughout the entire fight).
Hmmm. True, but it is a different scenario and different circumstances. Also the Emperor at that point was extremely cocky - just like all sith lords.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Because Anakin had been gaining a unique friendship with Palpatine. One that Mace didnt like at all and one that Mace was very wary of. I think at the point where Anakin said "I need him" Mace should have suspected something...
You're still misunderstanding. Mace had no reason to actually think that Anakin would cut off his hand out of nowhere. Seriously, Anakin was a Jedi, and he expected it to be nothing more than when he was whining about not getting the rank of Jedi Master.
Not at that point. Palpatine had supposedly and very convincingly used up all of his energy reserves. He was backed into the corner and appeared completely helpless.
And...? "He's too dangerous to be left alive!". Seems Mace Windu disagrees, it was necessity to kill Sidious; it was not necessity to deal with Anakin's whining.
I agree. but im not sating that Mace shouldnt have killed Sids - merely spent more attention on the clearly turmoiled Anakin.
Why? He was dealing with a very dangerous man. I mean really, why pay attention to a whiny Jedi's ramblings instead of deal with a Sith friggin' Lord right in front of you that just killed three of your fellow Council members? It's completely irrational to just stop in the middle of dealing with Sidious, and focus on Anakin.
Well Anakin was clearly on the brink of igniting his saber, especially when he yelled "I need him". At that point a person of Maces wisdom should have knownbetter.
Uh, no. He pulled out his lightsaber only when Mace cocked back his arm ready to slash Sidious back to the depths of Hell. How was he expecting it? Who in their right mind would expect it? I guess he should've listened to Anakin because he said "I need him"? He said "I need the rank of Master", too, should Mace have listened to him then? Would Anakin slice Mace's hand off then?
Hmmm. True, but it is a different scenario and different circumstances. Also the Emperor at that point was extremely cocky - just like all sith lords.
Actually, it is completely the same. The only difference it was Jedi and Jedi instead of Sith and Sith.
Here's why they are similar:
1.) You say Mace should've listened when he said "I need him", well then Sidious should've listened to a measly Luke Skywalker when he said "I can feel the conflict within you", "your thoughts betray you, father".
2.) Both were betrayed by people who had been completely loyal, and had vowed their allegiance to the respective Orders.
3.) They both had no reason to suspect either one, just because two morons said something, doesn't mean jack when he's been loyal, and vowed his life (especially for Windu, since Anakin only said "I need him"😉.
4.) Both wanted to kill their unarmed opponent, because they were the actual necessity to deal with. I.e. Palpatine being a Sith Lord, who just killed three other Jedi, and Luke being a Jedi, who just pwned his apprentice.
The situations are pretty similar, actually.
The argument is pointless. But ill continue it because im bored lol.
Mace had an unarmed prisoner. He has apparently lost all his energy reserve, been disarmed and was backed into a corner. He had also been blasted by a large amount of his own force lightning. Now yes, Mace was right to consider him a very high risk person. But Anakin was also their - the same Anakin who had become very close to the Chancellor, the same Anakin who was strong enough to beat the Count, the same Anakin wh had been specifically told to stay behind and the same Anakin who was yelling things like "You cant kill him" and "I need him". At that point it should be fairly obvious who the bigger threat was. Yet Mace still raised his lightsaber (in a foolishly dramatic way) while Anakin was yelling "NO" and went to deliver the killing blow on Sids - the unarmed and weak (supposedly) prisoner. Now this imo is a very foolish thing to do. Dont talk about how Anakin moans all the time and how he was a jedi so he wouldnt do something like that. Mace was probably the most wary of wary jedi of Anakin out of everyone, and was opposed to Anakin from day one. He of all people should have known what Anakin was thinking and/or about to do...
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Mace had an unarmed prisoner.
Oh? The same unarmed prisoner who was using Force lightning moments before?
He has apparently lost all his energy reserve, been disarmed and was backed into a corner.
What the hell does that have to do with anything? You'll have to explain how it is even rational for Mace to consider what Anakin was talking about instead of dealing with a Sith friggin' Lord. Though, you'll have a hard time explaining it, since it is completely irrational.
He had also been blasted by a large amount of his own force lightning. Now yes, Mace was right to consider him a very high risk person. But Anakin was also their
So what? So, he should deal with Anakin, a fellow Jedi, who pledged his life to the Jedi Order, and was a simpleton in his mind, instead of dealing with the Sith friggin' Lord right in front of him, who just blasted him with lightning moments ago?
That's what you seem to be missing, Anakin is a Jedi, Palpatine was a Sith Lord. You need to realize that it is completely, and 100% irrational to consider a fellow Jedi, who has been loyal over your natural enemy, who blasted you with lightning moments ago, and killed three of your fellow Councilmen.
How rational would it be if I were actually American (lol) and was fighting in the Iraq War (or whatever it is called) and was about to execute an Iraqi prisoner, who was just shooting at me, and consider a fellow soldier saying "But we need him", despite him just killing three compadres, and shooting me?
It really wouldn't be at all.
the same Anakin who had become very close to the Chancellor,
So? Why would Mace think that Anakin would betray the Jedi Order just because he's buddy-buddy with Palpatine? You know, Anakin did vow his allegiance to the Jedi, right?
the same Anakin who was strong enough to beat the Count,
What does that have to do with anything? Should he be viewed as a "threat" then, despite being a Jedi? I guess TPM Kenobi is a threat to the Jedi Order as well, since he killed Maul.
the same Anakin wh had been specifically told to stay behind and the same Anakin who was yelling things like "You cant kill him" and "I need him".
To which he was saying it in the heat of the moment.
"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"
Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor.
Keyword: Blankly.
Mace doesn't even know WTF Anakin is talking about as you can see. I don't know who actually would aside from Sidious and Anakin himself. Why would Mace stop killing a natural and dangerous enemy to deal with some punk, who is yelling things Mace has no damn clue about?
At that point it should be fairly obvious who the bigger threat was.
Yeah, it was Sidious. Sith Lord or Jedi? Why the f*ck would he even view Anakin as a "threat"?
He. Was. A. Jedi. Palpatine. Was. A. Sith. Friggin. Lord
Yet Mace still raised his lightsaber (in a foolishly dramatic way) while Anakin was yelling "NO" and went to deliver the killing blow on Sids - the unarmed and weak (supposedly) prisoner.
Wrong. Anakin yelled "NO!" when Mace was about to kill Sidious, when he already had his arm cocked back. Not Mace raising his sword, while Anakin was in the middle of screaming.
Now this imo is a very foolish thing to do. Dont talk about how Anakin moans all the time and how he was a jedi so he wouldnt do something like that.
Actually, I will, since it is completely relevant. And again, is Sidious a fool because he didn't see his loyal apprentice for the past twenty years about to betray him, despite Luke saying "I can feel the conflict", "your thoughts betray you, father", etc.?
Mace was probably the most wary of wary jedi of Anakin out of everyone, and was opposed to Anakin from day one. He of all people should have known what Anakin was thinking and/or about to do... [/B]
Considering he would have no reason to actually think Anakin would do that, and considering there was a Sith Lord in his face, and considering he had no damn clue what Anakin was even talking about - you're wrong.