I disagree, Rampant.
Count Dooku is a powerful Force user and an exceptional duelist, and would give Mace one hell of a fight, and, if the conditions were favorable, defeat him.
However, given Mace's use of Vaapad, which has shown to be, perhaps, the best lightsaber form to use against Dark Siders, plus his nifty Shatterpoint ability, I am of a mind to believe that Mace would eventually overcome him.
Similarly, Yoda and Sidious are virtual equals. Sidious opts for self preservation rather than to go headlong into a fight (unless he's prepared for it). I could honestly see the fight go either way, considering that he fought smarter than Yoda did in RotS, and used the terrain to his advantage when he could.
However, Yoda is a hair or two superior to Sidious in sheer lightsaber combat, which also gives him an advantage.
As for the entire fight:
a. Mace overcomes Dooku after a lengthly duel, and assists Yoda in killing Sidious, if he is not already dead.
b. Dooku overcomes Mace after a lengthly duel, and assists Sidious in killing Yoda, if he is not already dead.
c. Mace overcomes Dooku after a lengthly duel, and engages Sidious in combat (if he killed Yoda), which I see Sidious taking an all out fight, given his superior Force powers and battle tactics.
d. Dooku overcomes Mace and engages Yoda in combat (if he killed Sidious) and dies against his former master.
Either way, I see the Dooku vs. Mace match finishing before Yoda vs. Sidious, in which case I see Mace winning. Then he rushes over and pwns Sidious with Yoda's help.
Oh, and the quote is:
"One has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
[B]I disagree, Rampant.
And so it begins...
Count Dooku is a powerful Force user and an exceptional duelist, and would give Mace one hell of a fight, and, if the conditions were favorable, defeat him.
I agree 100% And the same thing with Mace. If the conditions were favorable he would probably take out the Count. But the point is the conditions are not favorable - we are aboard the Counts vessel which gives him the advantage, however slight. Probably not enough to win the fight though. But then again the throne room is not that big (if what im thinking of is the throne room lol) so Mace wouldnt be able to properly utilise Vappad, especially with Mace and Yoda duelling there as well, both of whom use a large amount of space with there forms.
However, given Mace's use of Vaapad, which has shown to be, perhaps, the best lightsaber form to use against Dark Siders, plus his nifty Shatterpoint ability, I am of a mind to believe that Mace would eventually overcome him.
Vapaad is great all round, Makashi is perfect at duelling. I personally think that in terms of their respective forms Dooku has the slight advantage. He has mastered Makashi to the highest degree. And we all know that Makashi was made for duelling. And yes, shatterpoint is extremely effective. Easily enough to give Mace a slight advantage. But the care word being slight. Not enough to win him the fight straight up.
Similarly, Yoda and Sidious are virtual equals. Sidious opts for self preservation rather than to go headlong into a fight (unless he's prepared for it). I could honestly see the fight go either way, considering that he fought smarter than Yoda did in RotS, and used the terrain to his advantage when he could.
I agree. I would say thatthey are both so even that they are going to rely on their respective ally to win them the fight.
However, Yoda is a hair or two superior to Sidious in sheer lightsaber combat, which also gives him an advantage.
Yes, but Sids is a hair or two above Yoda in terms of the force. This evens it out. Again, I think that they are too close in terms of power to determine a straight out winner.
Sorry im not going to debate each individual point because they are just some of thopusands of possible outcomes. I will say this.
Dooku has:
-80+ years of training in both the light and dark side of the force
-80+ years perfecting Makashi, the lightsaber form
-trained under both Sids and Yoda, arguably the two best force users of the era
-proven he has beaten Mace before (although this is a long time ago and difficult to use as evidence)
-Was able to duel with Yoda and meat him blow for blow twice
-Wtf pwned AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin
-Wtf pwned ROTS Obi-Wan
-Can block force lightning with his hands
-trained an array of extremely powerful dark acolytes
Wtf pwned GG
The list goes on. But the point is that Dooku has more accomplishments and shown us greater feats than Mace. The duel will be far from close, but eventually the Count will win. He will the help Sids defeat Yoda.
Oh, and the quote is:"One has to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor."
Hahaha thanks. 😄
Originally posted by Rampant ox
And so it begins...
And so the bullshit continues...
But the point is the conditions are not favorable - we are aboard the Counts vessel which gives him the advantage, however slight.
Rampant, it's really not an advantage at all. I said .019%, and that was the wrong figure. It doesn't even give him enough to have as much of an advantage as this line I'm about to draw below:
-
Out of 1,000,000 miles - that little dash is even more of an advantage it gives Dooku. Stop treating it like the Count actually will win just because of this (and don't say you aren't, "the conditions are favorable"? Lawls, no).
Probably not enough to win the fight though.
There is no "probably", it's a definite.
But then again the throne room is not that big (if what im thinking of is the throne room lol) so Mace wouldnt be able to properly utilise Vappad,
Let's see here, he dueled Sidious in a far more contained area than the throne room, and he actually beat Sidious in that area, so what are you talking about, hm?
especially with Mace and Yoda duelling there as well, both of whom use a large amount of space with there forms.
Doesn't Sidious use Ataru as well? And when was it ever said Vaapad requires a lot of space? Making more things up, Rampant?
Vapaad is great all round, Makashi is perfect at duelling. I personally think that in terms of their respective forms Dooku has the slight advantage. He has mastered Makashi to the highest degree. And we all know that Makashi was made for duelling.
First off, where do you get "great all round"? Source please, and quote. Secondly, read this:
From the Insider 62 article: "Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V" - that's on Vaapad.
From the Revenge of the Sith novelization: "His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - that's when Anakin and Dooku dueled.
So, seeing as Dooku's Makashi couldn't meet Djem So, and Vaapad uses even more kinetic energy, I'm inclined to say that will work for Mace Windu.
And yes, shatterpoint is extremely effective. Easily enough to give Mace a slight advantage. But the care word being slight. Not enough to win him the fight straight up.
Lawlipops. First of all, it gives Windu a vastly superior advantage compared to Dooku's "knowing the terrain" crap.
And, really - "slight"? Let's see here, if I'm not mistaken Mace Windu's Shatterpoint ability allowed him to overcome Sidious:
"Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift."
That'd be a one Darth Sidious, who is Dooku's superior. So you say slight? Ha. No.
-proven he has beaten Mace before (although this is a long time ago and difficult to use as evidence)
Completely irrelevant. Dooku beat Anakin in AOTC, but what happened in ROTS? He got his head lopped off.
-Was able to duel with Yoda and meat him blow for blow twice
No, he didn't meet him "blow for blow", that may be your perspective, but the AOTC script and novelization disagrees with you:
COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.
parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Sure, he had his good points, but ultimately Yoda was going to win. And I could counter this with the good ol', Mace went "blow for blow" with Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and beat him. So what is your point?
-Wtf pwned AOTC Obi-Wan and Anakin
Who gives? They are weaklings.
-Wtf pwned ROTS Obi-Wan
And you left out: 'got pwned by ROTS Anakin in a straight up lightsaber fight.'
Wtf pwned GG
Yeah, and so did Mace. Your point?
But the point is that Dooku has more accomplishments and shown us greater feats than Mace.
Yes, they were just irrelevant Feat Wars. Put them into context, what does Dooku pwning Grievous have to do with Mace Windu? Mace Windu did the same thing. What does training Dark Acolytes have to do with this fight/how will it stop Windu?
The duel will be far from close, but eventually the Count will win. He will the help Sids defeat Yoda.
You mean the duel will be far from a landslide? And, don't say "eventually the Count will win" as if it were fact, because I'd say Mace Windu would beat him.
And so the bullshit continues...
From your side, yes.
Rampant, it's really not an advantage at all. I said .019%, and that was the wrong figure. It doesn't even give him enough to have as much of an advantage as this line I'm about to draw below:-
Out of 1,000,000 miles - that little dash is even more of an advantage it gives Dooku. Stop treating it like the Count actually will win just because of this (and don't say you aren't, "the conditions are favorable"? Lawls, no).
I acknowledged that it was a small advantage twice in my comment. I specifically said that this is not enough to win the duel, so stop arguing for the sake of it.
There is no "probably", it's a definite.
Fine, my point on the matter doesnt differ. I still said that it wouldnt help him very much and I also said that it wasnt enough to win himthe fight. So what point are you making?
Doesn't Sidious use Ataru as well? And when was it ever said Vaapad requires a lot of space? Making more things up, Rampant?
Have you seen the movie? It clearly shows Mace using large sweeping movements. If you used some common knowledge you would understand that the larger the movement the more space required to make it effective.
First off, where do you get "great all round"? Source please, and quote.
Why on earth are you arguing that? It is aiding your argument fool. But OK, I take back what I said. Vaapad is not great all round.
From the Insider 62 article: "Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V" - that's on Vaapad.From the Revenge of the Sith novelization: "His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head." - that's when Anakin and Dooku dueled.
So, seeing as Dooku's Makashi couldn't meet Djem So, and Vaapad uses even more kinetic energy, I'm inclined to say that will work for Mace Windu.
True. But The form relied on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts—as opposed to the blocking and slashing of the other forms. Meaning that Dooku would parry the attack instead of blocking it, thus minimising the kinetic energy. Also Timing, accuracy, and skill, rather than strength were relied on to defeat one's opponent and with a skilled practitioner, the results were extremely potent. . Meaning that the strength Vaapad had over Makashi was irrelevant.
Lawlipops. First of all, it gives Windu a vastly superior advantage compared to Dooku's "knowing the terrain" crap.
If I recall Mace has already had a shatterpoint on Dooku. Yet Dooku still walked away unharmed. Whats to say there is going to even be a shatterpoint - and if there is Mace might not see it or be able to capitalise on it.
And, really - "slight"? Let's see here, if I'm not mistaken Mace Windu's Shatterpoint ability allowed him to overcome Sidious:
See above
Completely irrelevant. Dooku beat Anakin in AOTC, but what happened in ROTS? He got his head lopped off.
Which is why I said that it would be hard to use as evidence. Next time read the post before pointlessly arguing it.
No, he didn't meet him "blow for blow", that may be your perspective, but the AOTC script and novelization disagrees with you:COUNT DOOKU charges across the space at YODA. He rains down blows upon the tiny figure. YODA doesn't budge an inch. For the first part of the contest, he parries every cut and thrust that Dooku aims. Nothing the great swordsman tries gets through. His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower.
parrying each blow and offering cunning counters that had Dooku skipping backward desperately.
Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
Hahahahaha lmao. If they didnt meet each other blow for blow then why isnt one dead? I was under the impression that if they didnt meet each other one would be killed. Dooku blocked Yodas attacks and Yoda blocked Dookus attacks. Seems to me they met each other blow for blow - and nowhere in the script does it say otherwise.
Sure, he had his good points, but ultimately Yoda was going to win.
I didnt say Yoda wasnt going to win 😉
Who gives? They are weaklings.
I beg to differ.
And you left out: 'got pwned by ROTS Anakin in a straight up lightsaber fight.'
Just like you left out got pwned by Sids lightning.
You mean the duel will be far from a landslide?
Hahaha. Sorry my mistake 😮
And, don't say "eventually the Count will win" as if it were fact, because I'd say Mace Windu would beat him.Obviously you think Mace will win. How about you start to providing some points to aid your argument.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Proving points that MAce will win? I think Sama and Escape already did that. The fact that Mace is a master of Vaapad, and has his cute little shatterpoint ability, means that only the likes of Yoda would most likely best him.
Wtf. Mace knows Vaapad. Whoopdi doo. Dooku knows Makashi. Mace has shatterpoint. Whoopdi doo, Dooku has extensive knowledge in both sides of the force. And no, if i recall Mace lost to Sidious and I also recall Starwars.com saying that Dooku has beaten Mace before.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
From your side, yes.
No, you seriously do spew a lot of bullshit. I called you on a lot earlier, and you admitted defeat.
I acknowledged that it was a small advantage twice in my comment. I specifically said that this is not enough to win the duel, so stop arguing for the sake of it.
No, you say this "But the point is the conditions are not favorable - we are aboard the Counts vessel which gives him the advantage, however slight. " You said that is a favorable condition, along with the fact he uses Makashi. That implies you seem to think it will help, if it's a considerably stupid point, why mention it?
Fine, my point on the matter doesnt differ. I still said that it wouldnt help him very much and I also said that it wasnt enough to win himthe fight. So what point are you making?
You don't understand, you imply that it's enough, you stated that single point along with one other, Makashi. You act as if it really is a great advantage. But whatever, I could care less.
Have you seen the movie? It clearly shows Mace using large sweeping movements.
Yet surprisingly, he fought in a smaller area, and won. Vaapad wasn't effective when dueling against Sidious? Oh, is that why he beat Sidious in a tighter area? Yeah, keep making stuff up, Rampant, so your butt buddy wins.
If you used some common knowledge you would understand that the larger the movement the more space required to make it effective.
If I used some common knowledge? Lmfao. You're an idiot. Mace fought Sidious in a smaller environment, and won. Clearly, from what we saw and "common sense", Mace doesn't need that much room to be effective. Adding to the fact the throne room is far larger, and provides much more space, it's not a disadvantage at all like you said.
Why on earth are you arguing that? It is aiding your argument fool. But OK, I take back what I said. Vaapad is not great all round.
How is it lessening my argument? When you say "all around great" that implies all categories of lightsaber usage, and I'm saying it's not the greatest at deflecting blaster bolts; it's more focused on lightsaber to lightsaber battles, and single opponents. That's all.
So, tell me, how does Vaapad not being great at blocking blaster fire (but not horrible either) take away from my argument? Yeah, you call me a fool? Get a friggin' clue.
True. But The form relied on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts—as opposed to the blocking and slashing of the other forms. Meaning that Dooku would parry the attack instead of blocking it, thus minimising the kinetic energy.
First of all, Anakin's lightsaber form was an advantage over Dooku's. Mace's form draws from Anakin's form, except uses the power to a higher degree. And second of all, do you even know what kinetic energy is?
Also Timing, accuracy, and skill, rather than strength were relied on to defeat one's opponent and with a skilled practitioner, the results were extremely potent. . Meaning that the strength Vaapad had over Makashi was irrelevant.
And that bullshit description is thrown out the window by the fact ROTS Anakin killed Dooku using Djem So.
If I recall Mace has already had a shatterpoint on Dooku. Yet Dooku still walked away unharmed.
And where was this? In Obsession? No, the fight went unfinished if you remember.
Whats to say there is going to even be a shatterpoint - and if there is Mace might not see it or be able to capitalise on it.
Yeah, considering he could do it to Palpatine, there's no reason he can't do it to Dooku, you moron, especially given how close they are in terms of power. Might not be able to see it? Are you serious? He already did once before (and same ethics don't apply for besting an opponent years before).
See above
See above.
Which is why I said that it would be hard to use as evidence. Next time read the post before pointlessly arguing it.
I did read it, again, I'll ask: why do you even mention these dumb f*cking things if you can't argue them? I simply just shot it down before you even tried to argue it, or even tried to use it as evidence. Something wrong with that?
Hahahahaha lmao. If they didnt meet each other blow for blow then why isnt one dead? I was under the impression that if they didnt meet each other one would be killed. Dooku blocked Yodas attacks and Yoda blocked Dookus attacks. Seems to me they met each other blow for blow - and nowhere in the script does it say otherwise.
You see, when people say "blow for blow" they usually mean they were completely even with no one side gaining an advantage. Maybe if you were older than. . .14? 15 at most? You'd have heard about it.
"Blow for blow" basically means they were even, that's what the term actually means, you moron, sure "technically" it would be described as such, but informally that is what it means, and is usually meant to be.
I beg to differ.
In comparison to Mace Windu? Hell no. How is that even relevant to the fight? How is Dooku defeating Obi-Wan and a padawan, headstrong Anakin going to help him beat Mace Windu? Quit delving into Feat Wars unless you're going to put them into context.
Just like you left out got pwned by Sids lightning.
And where did I say he didn't? Where did I go into Feat Wars? Oh? I didn't? Adding to the fact Dooku was killed in a...
Straight up lightsaber fight,
...and Mace...
Already beat Sidious in the lightsaber duel, moron,
...and the reason Mace died was because Anakin...
Surprised Mace out of nowhere, and attacked at the last second.
How about you include the entire story next time you try to diminish a character? Good thing for us, there's actually a copy of ROTS available so you can't make up bullshit like this statement.
The difference was Dooku was killed straight up, Mace was killed after he beat Sidious (Dooku's superior, you dolt), and was surprised at the last second. So, why should I mention it?
Obviously you think Mace will win. How about you start to providing some points to aid your argument.
Read Escape's post, there you go.
And no, if i recall Mace lost to Sidious
Lawlz. Mace beat Sidious in the actual fight. Sidious killed Mace in a surprise attack thanks to Anakin. Mace beat Sidious, sorry that it weakens your argument, but it is true.
No, you say this "But the point is the conditions are not favorable - we are aboard the Counts vessel which gives him the advantage, however slight. " You said that is a favorable condition, along with the fact he uses Makashi. That implies you seem to think it will help, if it's a considerably stupid point, why mention it?
Ive already acknowleded on various occasions that it is not a significant advantage - and not enough to win the fight. Anyway, the point is useless, lets let it drop.
Yet surprisingly, he fought in a smaller area, and won. Vaapad wasn't effective when dueling against Sidious? Oh, is that why he beat Sidious in a tighter area? Yeah, keep making stuff up, Rampant, so your butt buddy wins.
OMG!!! Did it ever cross your mind that Sidious was at a disadvantage with his use of Ataru?! Another possible cause of Qui-Gon's death at the hands of Maul is the requirement of open space for the kinetic acrobatics of Ataru. Without ample space in the Theed Palace reactor core to move in, Qui-Gon was deprived from the key factor in his defense and, unsuccessfully, had to resort to blocking Maul's lightning fast barrage of Juyo strikes This rfers to Qui-Gon losing because of lack of space and the fact that Ataru needs alot of space to properly use. Now, if Sidious didnt have this space how was he meant to perform to his maximum potential? Let me tell you - he couldnt.
How is it lessening my argument? When you say "all around great" that implies all categories of lightsaber usage, and I'm saying it's not the greatest at deflecting blaster bolts; it's more focused on lightsaber to lightsaber battles, and single opponents. That's all.So, tell me, how does Vaapad not being great at blocking blaster fire (but not horrible either) take away from my argument? Yeah, you call me a fool? Get a friggin' clue.
I was praising Mace and then you came and shot my comment down. Heck, I wasnt even arguing but you turned it into an argument anyway. So lets drop this ridiculous argument and get onto the real debate...
First of all, Anakin's lightsaber form was an advantage over Dooku's. Mace's form draws from Anakin's form, except uses the power to a higher degree.
Yes, it is effective if Makashi attacks it head on. Makashi doesnt have the kinetic energy to do that - as shown in ROTS. But in saying that, Makashi doesnt fight head on.The form relied on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts—as opposed to the blocking and slashing of the other forms. Evidence straight from Wookiepedia. Makashi isnt made to attack a form head on, so we can assume Dooku wont do it against Mace.
And where was this? In Obsession? No, the fight when unfinished.
No, in AOTC. Shortly prior to the Battle of Geonosis, Mace perceived Dooku to be a shatterpoint capable of ending the war. His attachments let his old friend live, however, and so Dooku was able to go on and initiate the Clone Wars. Dooku was an easy target to kill, and heck he didnt even have his lightsaber out and Dooku wasnt killed. He practically laughed at Mace.
Yeah, considering he could do it to Palpatine, there's no reason he can't do it to Dooku, you moron, especially given how close they are in terms of power.
Not necessarily. Often, they existed for only brief moments, as shatterpoints could be affected by actions as small as movement. So if there was a shatterpoint (there is no guarentees there will even be one) Mace has to see it and capitalise on it. While blocking a skilled competitor such as Dooku. So the likelyhood of Mace winning the battle because of a shatterpoint is slim.
You see, when people say "blow for blow" they usually mean they were completely even with no one side gaining an advantage. Maybe if you were older than. . .14? 15 at most? You'd have heard about it."Blow for blow" basically means they were even, that's what the term actually means, you moron, sure "technically" it would be described as such, but informally that is what it means, and is usually meant to be.
Wow. You completely missed the point. Dooku went up against Yoda and survived. Ill put it a different way if you so desire. Dooku couldnt breach Yodas defenses but nor could Yoda breach Dookus. They couldnt overcome each other at that point. Now, im not arguing that yoda wouldnt have evntually won. What im saying is that Yoda, the strongest jedi of the era, was unable to take down the Count.
The difference was Dooku was killed straight up, Mace was killed after he beat Sidious (Dooku's superior, you dolt), and was surprised at the last second. So, why should I mention it?
And your point is what exactly? Sidious is Mace's superior as well you know.You cant base a character on one fight.
Read Escape's post, there you go.
I did. He provided a nice array of evidence. Might comment was directed at you who had given little evidence up until this point.
Lawlz. Mace beat Sidious in the actual fight. Sidious killed Mace in a surprise attack thanks to Anakin. Mace beat Sidious, sorry that it weakens your argument, but it is true.
And Dooku has beaten Mace. Sorry if it weakens your argument, but it is true.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
OMG!!! Did it ever cross your mind that Sidious was at a disadvantage with his use of Ataru?!
z0mg! Like wow, did it ever cross your mind that you're an idiot? A disadvantage? Lmfao. He killed three Jedi masters in seconds. Yeah, that sure is easy to do. And you said Mace Windu is at a disadvantage in a small area, so if Sidious was, then Mace was too (even though it is bullshit).
Thought so, double standards.
Another possible cause of Qui-Gon's death at the hands of Maul is the requirement of open space for the kinetic acrobatics of Ataru. Without ample space in the Theed Palace reactor core to move in, Qui-Gon was deprived from the key factor in his defense and, unsuccessfully, had to resort to blocking Maul's lightning fast barrage of Juyo strikes[/i]
Why do you have practically an entire paragraph italicized? And, you're still an idiot. Qui-Gon doesn't use Ataru in the way Yoda does, Sidious does not use Ataru in the way Yoda does. Or are you going to explain how Qui-Gon was described as:
"Attacking with a ferociousness never seen before" (TPM novelization), when he started to assault Maul after the doors opened. How the hell can Qui-Gon attacked more viciously, and more effectively if Ataru's supposed weakness is the space? Obi-Wan didn't seem to have a problem in TPM when he sliced Maul's blade in half, now did he?
Oh, and by the way, you just owned yourself. If Windu is at a disadvantage in small areas (which was bullshit, but I'll play along for a sec) then so was Maul during TPM because he uses Juyo, and Vaapad is only an extension of Juyo.
Anyways, Ataru's weakness is their defense, dumbass.
This rfers to Qui-Gon losing because of lack of space and the fact that Ataru needs alot of space to properly use.
Sadly, it's bullshit.
Now, if Sidious didnt have this space how was he meant to perform to his maximum potential? Let me tell you - he couldnt.
Let me tell you: you're a liar. How can Sidious manage to kill three Jedi masters in seconds, but not be able to achieve his maximum potential?
How is that you said Mace Windu is less effective in smaller areas, but it lessens his defeat of Sidious because Sidious was at a disadvantage? Nice double standards, Rampant.
Yes, it is effective if Makashi attacks it head on.
And what happens when Mace Windu attacks Dooku head on?
Makashi doesnt have the kinetic energy to do that - as shown in ROTS. But in saying that, Makashi doesnt fight head on.The form relied on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts—as opposed to the blocking and slashing of the other forms. Evidence straight from Wookiepedia.
LMFAO! Wookiepedia is a fallible, third party source. Show me some real evidence. If we go by Wookiepedia, Mace Windu would beat the shit out of Dooku.
Makashi isnt made to attack a form head on, so we can assume Dooku wont do it against Mace.
Is that why he met Anakin and Obi-Wan head on. . .?
No, in AOTC. Shortly prior to the Battle of Geonosis, Mace perceived Dooku to be a shatterpoint capable of ending the war. His attachments let his old friend live, however, and so Dooku was able to go on and initiate the Clone Wars. Dooku was an easy target to kill, and heck he didnt even have his lightsaber out and Dooku wasnt killed. He practically laughed at Mace.
More Wookiepedia bullshit. Give me the actual source, and the actual quote. Not some fallible, third party non official site. Prove up.
Not necessarily. Often, they existed for only brief moments, as shatterpoints could be affected by actions as small as movement. So if there was a shatterpoint (there is no guarentees there will even be one) Mace has to see it and capitalise on it. While blocking a skilled competitor such as Dooku. So the likelyhood of Mace winning the battle because of a shatterpoint is slim.
So, explain how the likelihood (not "likelyhood", you idiot) is slim when:
1.) Sidious is more talented with a lightsaber.
2.) Mace sensed Sidious' shatterpoint while fighting.
Also, given the fact the ROTS novel says this:
"The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint. "
What's that? Seems the ROTS novelization says Mace Windu doesn't necessarily have to worry about Dooku's attacks. He lets his body take over, and feels for the Shatterpoint. Very effective I must say, given he was still dueling Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and given he f*cking owned Sidious right after.
What im saying is that Yoda, the strongest jedi of the era, was unable to take down the Count.
Yoda didn't have enough time to take him down because the "great" Count ran the f*ck away is what I'm getting at. AOTC script says the following:
He flies forward. COUNT DOOKU is forced to retreat.
My point to counter that is, Darth Sidious, the strongest Sith of the era, Dooku's superior, was unable to take down Mace Windu without a surprise attack, and he was actually beaten by Windu. Do you understand this? My god.
And your point is what exactly? Sidious is Mace's superior as well you know.You cant base a character on one fight.
You're clearly an idiot. You said "l0lz f0rg0t t0 m3nt1i0n m4c3 w45 pwn3d by f0rc3 l1`ghtn1n6!!1//!", and I replied with:
Originally posted by Advent
And where did I say he didn't? Where did I go into Feat Wars? Oh? I didn't? Adding to the fact Dooku was killed in a...Straight up lightsaber fight,
...and Mace...
Already beat Sidious in the lightsaber duel, moron,
...and the reason Mace died was because Anakin...
Surprised Mace out of nowhere, and attacked at the last second.
How about you include the entire story next time you try to diminish a character? Good thing for us, there's actually a copy of ROTS available so you can't make up bullshit like this statement.
The difference was Dooku was killed [b]straight up
, Mace was killed after he beat Sidious (Dooku's superior, you dolt), and was surprised at the last second. So, why should I mention it?
[/B]
Quit skirting the actual point, you were lying, I called you out on said lie, and you change the subject.
I did. He provided a nice array of evidence. Might comment was directed at you who had given little evidence up until this point.
Okay:
1.) Mace Windu's shatterpoint ability was enough to turn a stalemate against Sidious into a victory.
2.) Windu actually beat Sidious, Dooku's superior.
3.) "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious" (No Dooku).
4.) An aggressive and offensive form (Djem So) has been shown to counter Makashi, and render it less effective, and eventually overcome Dooku. And it just so happens Mace Windu uses an aggressive and offensive form that even draws from Djem So.
Along with everything Escape said, I agreed with Escape's points, so how can I state my reasons when they are basically the same?
And Dooku has beaten Mace. Sorry if it weakens your argument, but it is true.
Lol! Hypocrite much, Rampant?
Which is why I said that it would be hard to use as evidence.
Yeah, I defeated this absurd point already, dumbass. Dooku defeated Anakin in AOTC, but got his ass - head rather - handed to him in ROTS. Try again.
The same can't be said for Sidious/Mace since Mace beat Sidious in ROTS, and this is ROTS Sidious and ROTS Dooku, so if you are going to try to say it - don't bother.
And quit using Wookiepedia as if it is an official source. News flash, a--hole: it's not. Give me the actual source, and the actual quote instead of a third party source.
Finally some solid points to argue!! Im sorry but I had to cut the rest of your argument because I dont have time to argue such pointless bullsh*t. I might get to it later.
1.) Mace Windu's shatterpoint ability was enough to turn a stalemate against Sidious into a victory.
Yes, Mace did use Shatterpoint to defeat Sids. But who says there is going top be a shatterpoint in this battle? And even if there was, how do we know that Mace will see it? And finally how do we know Mace will capitalise on it? I mean, the Count is one of the best swordsman ever. He isnt going to give Mace a chance to stop and use the shatterpoint. And the shatterpoint is only there very briefly, Dooku can just keep Mace occupies while the shatterpoint passes them by.
Now before you have another hernia ill say this. The shatterpoint could be a significant help to Mace. But the chances of him being able to use one is slim for the reasons I stated above.
2.) Windu actually beat Sidious, Dooku's superior.
So. This doesnt mean that Mace will be able to beat Dooku. One battle proves nothing. And I can counter what you just said by saying that Dooku has beaten Mace before. But ill admit this means nothing because one battle doesnt prove the strength of the competitors.
3.) "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with Sidious" (No Dooku).
See my above points. And also why would Dooku be on the list. Dooku doesnt want to compete with Sidious. He is Sids apprentice. Apart from his comments in AOTC (which meant nothing and led nowhere) Dooku has always respected his master.
4.) An aggressive and offensive form (Djem So) has been shown to counter Makashi, and render it less effective, and eventually overcome Dooku. And it just so happens Mace Windu uses an aggressive and offensive form that even draws from Djem So.
And like I said before, Makashi lessens the kinetic energy created by parrying a technique, instead of meeting it head on. Dooku is smart, he knows his form is weak in that area and he will make sure Mace cant capitalise from it.
Along with everything Escape said, I agreed with Escape's points, so how can I state my reasons when they are basically the same?
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Finally some solid points to argue!! Im sorry but I had to cut the rest of your argument because I dont have time to argue such pointless bullsh*t. I might get to it later.
Wow Rampant. You mean you don't want to admit defeat because I handed you your f*cking ass in a debate again? Thought so, I called you on bullshit numerous times, and whooped your ass. Try again, dumbass.
Yes, Mace did use Shatterpoint to defeat Sids. But who says there is going top be a shatterpoint in this battle? And even if there was, how do we know that Mace will see it?
Are you freaking kidding me? Look below, and below again.
And finally how do we know Mace will capitalise on it?
Are you f*cking kidding me? Look below.
I mean, the Count is one of the best swordsman ever. He isnt going to give Mace a chance to stop and use the shatterpoint. And the shatterpoint is only there very briefly, Dooku can just keep Mace occupies while the shatterpoint passes them by.Now before you have another hernia ill say this. The shatterpoint could be a significant help to Mace. But the chances of him being able to use one is slim for the reasons I stated above.
Another stupid point by an equally stupid person. If you'd actually bother to read and reply to my entire post, you'd realize this was already addressed:
Originally posted by Advent
So, explain how the likelihood (not "likelyhood", you idiot) is slim when:1.) Sidious is more talented with a lightsaber.
2.) Mace sensed Sidious' shatterpoint while fighting.Also, given the fact the ROTS novel says this:
"The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint. "What's that? Seems the ROTS novelization says Mace Windu doesn't necessarily have to worry about Dooku's attacks. He lets his body take over, and feels for the Shatterpoint. Very effective I must say, given he was still dueling Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and given he f*cking owned Sidious right after.
Again, Mace lets his body do the work, and feels for the shatterpoint. And as I said, he was defending against Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, while doing it - so there's definitely reason to believe he can do the same for Dooku. And adding to the fact that no one has ever even said to not have a shatterpoint, and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before [supposedly, you still haven't shown me actual proof aside from Wookiepedia]; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.
Do you realize how stupid you sound? "I'll get to the BS later"? Lmfao. This supposed bullshit just trampled your point, pal, but as always: you're welcome to try again.
So. This doesnt mean that Mace will be able to beat Dooku. One battle proves nothing. And I can counter what you just said by saying that Dooku has beaten Mace before.
Yet again you show your stupidity, Rampant. Dooku beat Mace years ago, key phrase: Years ago. Mace beat Sidious in the now (ROTS). Key phrase: "in the now", so there is no reason to believe Mace won't be able to do it again in a lightsaber fight, and overcome Dooku anyways.
But ill admit this means nothing because one battle doesnt prove the strength of the competitors.
Rofl. So, I guess we can't use the fact Mace already put Sidious on his ass in this fight? We can't use canon evidence that happened in the current (not ten some years ago or whatever) in a fight? What the hell?
See my above points.
I did, they were idiotic like I'm *guessing* the below points will be, too.
And also why would Dooku be on the list. Dooku doesnt want to compete with Sidious. He is Sids apprentice. Apart from his comments in AOTC (which meant nothing and led nowhere) Dooku has always respected his master.
*Ding, ding!* I was right. Idiotic statement #236. When it means compete, it means just that. People who can keep up with Sidious. Dooku, apparently, cannot. It doesn't say people who "want to", it means people who actually can.
And like I said before, Makashi lessens the kinetic energy created by parrying a technique, instead of meeting it head on. Dooku is smart, he knows his form is weak in that area and he will make sure Mace cant capitalise from it.
Then explain why he met Anakin and Obi-Wan's attacks head on in ROTS? And again, I ask, do you even know what kinetic energy is?
Wow Rampant. You mean you don't want to admit defeat because I handed you your f*cking ass in a debate again? Thought so, I called you on bullshit numerous times, and whooped your ass. Try again, dumbass.
I ignored the rest of your argument because it was irrelevant to the conversation. The points I responded to were good points, and the only ones that would have continued the argument. And keep the bashing down. If you are trying to scare me out of the argument it wont work - but it does show me you are running out of ways to argue with me. Im going to bed. Ill debate the rest of your points tomorrow.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
I ignored the rest of your argument because it was irrelevant to the conversation.
Wow, that's some more bull, Rampant! Keep on spewing it.
I mean really, I even used one of the points you failed to respond to against one of your rebuttals. Irrelevant? I just proved otherwise. As usual, try again.
The points I responded to were good points, and the only ones that would have continued the argument. And keep the bashing down.
It's friggin' 4:54 AM. At night, I get pissy, and bored. I apologize, but really - who cares? It's an internet forum, and it's not like I truly mean it.
If you are trying to scare me out of the argument it wont work
Or possibly trying to show you that you make stuff up, make points contrary to the fact, and demonstrated inability to forumlate a good argument.
but it does show me you are running out of ways to argue with me. Im going to bed. Ill debate the rest of your points tomorrow.
And you failing to respond to them, calling the points irrelevant when one was even used in your rebuttal to the supposed "good points", shows me you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
And I'm just tired of you making ridiculous points, me shooting them down, and you making more. It's as if you have a clone army of ridiculous assertions, and I just can't shoot all of them down at once. So I'm sorry for that.
On another note: good night, and try not to have any wet dreams of your lover-boy, Chrissy Lee...
(Just kidding. Good night.)
'and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before [supposedly, you still haven't shown me actual proof aside from Wookiepedia]; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.'
Are you sure about this? Mace did sense that Dooku was the war's shatterpoint, but I don't recall him ever sensing his actually shatterpoint. He certainly didn't when they fought in Obsession.
Originally posted by Sith'ari
'and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before [supposedly, you still haven't shown me actual proof aside from Wookiepedia]; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.'Are you sure about this? Mace did sense that Dooku was the war's shatterpoint, but I don't recall him ever sensing his actually shatterpoint. He certainly didn't when they fought in Obsession.
Honestly, I don't even have a clue as to what happened, lol. Hence, the "supposedly/proof/Wookie" sentence; I'd even asked when the hell he did it, and I was given the answer of "Wookiepedia", haha.
Rampant said previously that Mace Windu had "sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before, and walked away", so I was just going on what he said, which, of course, was given no official source title, or no official quote other than some crap from Wookiepedia.