Good morning all 😄 Now back to the fight...
Shatterpoint. You make it sound like this will be the deciding factor in the fight. If there is one, if Mace can find it, if Mace can capitalise on it before it disappears and if shatterpoint leads to Mace's victory then yes, there is a good chance Windu will win. But the chances of it all working in Mace's favor are slim - especially when you have a first class fighter like Dooku pummeling at your defences.
The Mace vs Sidious fight is hardly relevant. But ill say this. Mace won (or at least thought he won) the first part of the fight. Sidious was on the ground defenceless. However when Anakin sneak attacked him he got wtf pwned by Sidious' lightning. Meaning that Sidious wasnt as defenseless as Mace was led to beleive, meaning that Sidious was manipulating him to get too Anakin. However that is my theory and it is irrelevant to Dooku vs Mace. Now lets continue...
Lightsaber forms. Dooku is a master of Makashi and Mace Vaapad. They both know it to the highest degree. But Makashi is a form specifically created to duel. The same cannot be said about Vaapad. So straight away Dooku has the upperhand. Now yes, Makashi is said to be disadvantaged to Vaapad becauseof the kinetic energy. Makashi doesnt generate enought to compete with Vaapad head on. However this is fine, because Makashi isnt made to compete head on. It uses parrys and thrusts to defeat the opponent. This means it does not have to compete with the full kinetic energy Vaapad generates. Vaapad is a great form, im not arguing that. But in this specific fight I dont think it is enough to overwhelm Makashi, especially when it is in the hands of a master like Count Dooku.
I have more but I dont have time to state them. Ill get to it later. I look forwrd to your rebuttal Advent, im sure it will be compelling. And please, lets keep the converstion civil today. 😉
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Shatterpoint. You make it sound like this will be the deciding factor in the fight.
Uh, let's see here. It turned a stalemate against Sidious into a victory. It was the deciding factor against someone who is superior to Dooku.
If there is one, if Mace can find it, if Mace can capitalise on it before it disappears and if shatterpoint leads to Mace's victory then yes, there is a good chance Windu will win. But the chances of it all working in Mace's favor are slim - especially when you have a first class fighter like Dooku pummeling at your defences.
Holy shit, you really are that dense. I addressed this, and quit saying "Dooku pummeling at your defenses", because Mace found Sidious' when he was beating the shit out of Sidious, adding to the fact Sidious is superior to Dooku...
Originally posted by Advent
So, explain how the likelihood (not "likelyhood", you idiot) is slim when:1.) Sidious is more talented with a lightsaber.
2.) Mace sensed Sidious' shatterpoint while fighting.Also, given the fact the ROTS novel says this:
"[b]The fighting was effortless for him now
; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source.
Feeling for its shatterpoint. "What's that? Seems the ROTS novelization says Mace Windu doesn't necessarily have to worry about Dooku's attacks. He lets his body take over, and feels for the Shatterpoint. Very effective I must say, given he was still dueling Sidious, who is Dooku's superior, and given he f*cking owned Sidious right after.[/B]
Originally posted by Advent
Again, Mace lets his body do the work, and feels for the shatterpoint. And as I said, he was defending against Sidious, who is [b]Dooku's superior, while doing it - so there's definitely reason to believe he can do the same for Dooku. And adding to the fact that no one has ever even said to not have a shatterpoint, and adding to the fact Mace had already sensed Dooku's shatterpoint before [supposedly, you still haven't shown me actual proof aside from Wookiepedia]; it's reasonable to assume he can and will find Dooku's shatterpoint, and use it as seen against Sidious.[/B]
Ever plan on actually reading before you post?
The Mace vs Sidious fight is hardly relevant.
Go ahead then, you explain to me how it is "hardly relevant". Better yet, I'll just tell you why it is relevant - Mace beat Sidious in ROTS. This is ROTS Sidious and ROTS Mace, you dolt. Their fight is completely relevant here, and to assume otherwise:
a.) Is ludicrous (but I expect it from you, because you don't know what you're talking about).
b.) Calls for an explanation that you always seem to "fail to give" after I call you out on things.
I'm noticing a pattern.
But ill say this. Mace won (or at least thought he won) the first part of the fight. Sidious was on the ground defenceless.
The first part of the fight? Uh, he beat Sidious fair and square in a lightsaber duel. It's that simple, quit trying to diminish the feat as you're going to do below, because I countered this bullshit already.
However when Anakin sneak attacked him he got wtf pwned by Sidious' lightning.
Yeah? Your point? Sneak attack by Anakin, which unarmed Mace as well.
Meaning that Sidious wasnt as defenseless as Mace was led to beleive, meaning that Sidious was manipulating him to get too Anakin. However that is my theory and it is irrelevant to Dooku vs Mace. Now lets continue...
Yes, Sidious wasn't as defenseless when he was using the lightning, that's clear and obvious. He was defending, and trying to kill Mace Windu when they fought in the lightsaber fight, but Mace beat him. Now, since your theories are ridiculous, and are contradictory to the point, let's continue...
(Btw, Mace beating Sidious is relevant).
Lightsaber forms. Dooku is a master of Makashi and Mace Vaapad. They both know it to the highest degree. But Makashi is a form specifically created to duel. The same cannot be said about Vaapad.
Your point? Djem So isn't created for "specifically" for dueling, but it was able to beat the shit out of the Count. Ataru isn't made "specifically" for dueling, but it would've beat the shit out of the Count.
So straight away Dooku has the upperhand.
Bullshit. Revenge of the Sith anyone?
Now yes, Makashi is said to be disadvantaged to Vaapad becauseof the kinetic energy. Makashi doesnt generate enought to compete with Vaapad head on. However this is fine, because Makashi isnt made to compete head on. It uses parrys and thrusts to defeat the opponent. This means it does not have to compete with the full kinetic energy Vaapad generates. Vaapad is a great form, im not arguing that. But in this specific fight I dont think it is enough to overwhelm Makashi, especially when it is in the hands of a master like Count Dooku.
Really? How is that Form V (Djem So) was able to overwhelm Makashi, while it was in the hands of "a master like Count Dooku", hm? Oh? You forgot, did you? Djem So > Makashi:
"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. "
As you think you've already addressed this point correctly, this is just a supporting factor, given that Vaapad is described as "more kinetic"...
"Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and "
Oh, but I thought Dooku doesn't "meet the attacks"? Seems he does, and if he didn't he'd probably be cut in half. Also, given it says he needs to use a lot of his Force energy just to block them says a lot. And given Vaapad is way more aggressive, and draws upon more strength than Djem So, I'm inclined to say Mace's Vaapad gives him an advantage.
"Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. "
Wow, Djem So's attacks were costing Dooku that much power? Aging him a decade? Looks like Makashi isn't the great advantage you think. Given that Vaapad draws from Anakin's form, and Yoda's form - both of which were overwhelming Dooku.
"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step,"
Dooku was getting driven back, his defenses were faltering, and all from a form that Mace draws upon.
^
Don't want to believe it? Believe it.
I have more but I dont have time to state them.
Or you just don't want them to get torn apart. 😉
Ill get to it later. I look forwrd to your rebuttal Advent, im sure it will be compelling. And please, lets keep the converstion civil today. 😉
It's a new day, but still the same old bullshit, Rampant, but of course I'll keep it toned down for ya', buddy boy.
Originally posted by Advent
Uh, let's see here. It turned a stalemate against Sidious into a victory. It was the deciding factor against someone who is superior to Dooku.
Fair enough. Im not arguing that if Mace manages to capitalise of the shatterpoint then he has a good chance at winning. But because of the factors I stated before, the chances of Mace doing it again are slim.
Holy shit, you really are that dense. I addressed this, and quit saying "Dooku pummeling at your defenses", because Mace found Sidious' when he was beating the shit out of Sidious, adding to the fact Sidious is superior to Dooku...
Yes, but Dooku is a totally different opponent that Sidious, they are fighting in a totally different environment and they know each others skill and ability to a certain extent. We cant assume that because Mace did it too Sidious then he can do it to Dooku.
Go ahead then, you explain to me how it is "hardly relevant". Better yet, I'll just tell you why it is relevant - Mace beat Sidious in ROTS. This is ROTS Sidious and ROTS Mace, you dolt. Their fight is completely relevant here, and to assume otherwise:
It is irrelevant because we are discussing Mace vs Dooku, not Mace vs Sidious. If you are going to argue that then I will argue the fact that it is proven Dooku has bested Mace before. you cant have it both ways. And ones power can not be attained from just one battle.
a.) Is ludicrous (but I expect it from you, because you don't know what you're talking about).
😮💨
b.) Calls for an explanation that you always seem to "fail to give" after I call you out on things.
Any questions you ask I will answer then. I usually dont answer them because they are irrelevant or undermining my intelligence.
I'm noticing a pattern.
Im noticing a bird flying outside. Who really gives a f*ck.
The first part of the fight? Uh, he beat Sidious fair and square in a lightsaber duel. It's that simple, quit trying to diminish the feat as you're going to do below, because I countered this bullshit already.
Ok. This was a simple miscommunication. Yes, Mace won the saber duel - the clash of the sabers is what I meant by the first part of the fight.
Yeah? Your point? Sneak attack by Anakin, which unarmed Mace as well.
Well, if im not mistaking when someone gets hit with a lightsaber they usually arent expecting. Im sure Dooku wasnt expecting his hands to be removed, and im quite certain that Anakin wasnt expecting 3 of his limbs to be removed.
Yes, Sidious wasn't as defenseless when he was using the lightning, that's clear and obvious. He was defending, and trying to kill Mace Windu when they fought in the lightsaber fight, but Mace beat him.
[quote]I agree. But again, we are discussing Mace vs Dooku.
[quote]Your point? Djem So isn't created for "specifically" for dueling, but it was able to beat the shit out of the Count. Ataru isn't made "specifically" for dueling, but it would've beat the shit out of the Count.
Yoda is simply better than the Count. Any form that Yoda uses would probably beat the Count. It is not always the form that wins, but the experience of the user. And I dont know wtf the Count was doing in ROTS, because it certainly didnt look like Makashi. Ill say it again, Djem So builds up alot of Kinetic Energy - but Makashi can neutralise that because it uses parrys instead of head on blocks. Meaning that Dooku doesnt have to absorb the full force of the attack. I dont know why he was not parrying in ROTS, perhaps his arrogance blinded him....
Really? How is that Form V (Djem So) was able to overwhelm Makashi, while it was in the hands of "a master like Count Dooku", hm? Oh? You forgot, did you? Djem So > Makashi:
See above. Dooku should have parryed the attacks instead of meeting them head on. I dont know why he didnt - but we can assume that he would parry any attack that Mace threw at him.
And given Vaapad is way more aggressive, and draws upon more strength than Djem So, I'm inclined to say Mace's Vaapad gives him an advantage.
Im inclined to disagree. As soon as Dooku parrys Mace instead of blocking head on then Mace's advantage goes out the window. And again I dont know why the Count didnt parry in ROTS - but we cant assume he wont parry against Mace seeing thats what his form is built to do.
It's a new day, but still the same old bullshit, Rampant, but of course I'll keep it toned down for ya', buddy boy.
🙄
Originally posted by Sith'ari
The thing with Makashi is that it can be the best dueling form of them all, however it requires extreme concentration to be able to fight at its best. That's why it can't contend with overwhelming forms (such as Ataru, Vaapad, Schien) but can destroy when up against Soresu for example.
Fair enough, I see your point. But its not like Dooku doesnt have extreme concentration. He isnt some riff raff picked up from the slums of Coruscant and taught Makashi by some drug addict. He is the one of the top duellist of the era, easily able to take down most of the jedi council in a fight. He has the desire to win and would accept nothing less and to top it off he has been taught by arguably the two greatest force users of the era.
1, Dooku fights Mace while Yoda fights Sidious. Mace beats Dooku first and then he and Yoda together manage to beat Sidious. So the Jedi win.
2. Mace fights Sidious while Yoda fights Dooku. Mace is besting Sidious in saber combat but then Sidious attacks and kills Mace with the Force. Yoda kills Dooku and then fights Sidious but is to worn out to defeat the powerful Sith Lord. This time the Sith win.
So really I guess it could go either way.
Possibly. Dooku is the weak link in terms of force powers. However I would rank him above both Mace and Sids in terms of saber skill (my opinion though, i cant be bothered with a huge argument about it 🙂). It depends on who gets killed first - Dooku or Mace. Then the person who wins will go over and help defeat the enemy.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Possibly. Dooku is the weak link in terms of force powers. However I would rank him above both Mace and Sids in terms of saber skill (my opinion though, i cant be bothered with a huge argument about it 🙂). It depends on who gets killed first - Dooku or Mace. Then the person who wins will go over and help defeat the enemy.
No, actually, I'd put Mace above Dooku in both. Not by a lot, but by enough. Sidious and Yoda are equals in the Force, but Yoda has superior lightsaber skills and Sidious is the smarter, more efficient fighter.
Dooku dies, then Mace and Yoda pwn Sidious.
Originally posted by Generic Hero
He tried that already. He failed.
Originally posted by darthsith19Yes,he did.He may have had more energy,but Mace deflected most of it back at him.Anakin was the one who saved Palpatine's ass from being killed in the end,so your point is a moot one.
No, he didn't, when he said he was to weak he was faking it, according to Lucas, meaning he still had much more fight left in him.
Sidious unarmed beat Yoda while he was armed and most people think Yoda > Mace so that means Sidious would probably be able to take Mace out, too, if he wasn't pretending to be to weak.Yeah,how much time did Yoda have his saber before Sidious disarmed him of it?Atleast 3-4 minutes,from what I saw in the movie.There goes your argument.
Yes,he did.He may have had more energy,but Mace deflected most of it back at him.Anakin was the one who saved Palpatine's ass from being killed in the end,so your point is a moot one.
No, it isn't. Windu defeated an out-of-practice Palpatine in a lightsaber confrontation. Palpatine then tried to turn the tide by using his superior Force powers (unless you or Generic Hero would like to argue that Mace > Sidious in Force powers) from an inferior position.
Then we know that Mace barely held that assault at bay, and, according to Lucas, Palpatine was pretending to be weak, meaning that he had more fight and more power left in him, where it was apparent that Mace didn't.
Though, yes, in the end, it was Palpatine manipulating Anakin into acting that ultimately saved him.
Yeah,how much time did Yoda have his saber before Sidious disarmed him of it?Atleast 3-4 minutes,from what I saw in the movie.There goes your argument.
Yes, because Palpatine switched to long-range assaults to try to take Yoda out. The next time that Palpatine used lightning, Yoda's lightsaber went bye-bye.
Sorry that the guy can't aim a fricken Senate pod to disarm someone.
Originally posted by Escape81
No, it isn't. Windu defeated an out-of-practice Palpatine in a lightsaber confrontation. Palpatine then tried to turn the tide by using his superior Force powers (unless you or Generic Hero would like to argue that Mace > Sidious in Force powers) from an inferior position.Then we know that Mace barely held that assault at bay, and, according to Lucas, Palpatine was pretending to be weak, meaning that he had more fight and more power left in him, where it was apparent that Mace didn't.
Though, yes, in the end, it was Palpatine manipulating Anakin into acting that ultimately saved him.
Yes, because Palpatine switched to long-range assaults to try to take Yoda out. The next time that Palpatine used lightning, Yoda's lightsaber went bye-bye.
Sorry that the guy can't aim a fricken Senate pod to disarm someone.
I'll admit that I haven't read this thread but this post made me want to comment. Escape I know you can say that Sidious was out of practice but the bottom line is, he underestimated Windu and Windu is the superior of the two in saber combat, however Sidious>Windu in force abilities is a given.
And no, I don't know where you are getting your information from, but according to Lucas, Sidious started faking after his initial lightning attempt failed. I guess you can say Windu barely blocked it but he blocked or rather deflected it, so no need to think that Sidious had this all planned out, because it is clearly stated that Windu overpowered him. You cannot sit there and say Sidious had it all planned out because he did NOT know which way Anakin was going to turn.