The Ancient Sith

Although you people have been debating his power endlessly.

I believe its time to put an end to this debate.

I agree with those such as Escape81, although Ragnos is described to having tremendous power and phyiscal strength, we just do not have enough proof.

However saying DE Sidious, Yoda and the Jedi/Sith that have solid evidence on their power can defeat Ragnos is entirely absurd.

Lightsnake, you cannot definitely prove that DE Sidious was the most powerful of the most powerful. Yes he was described in various sources as that powerful, however you cannot compare him to Ragnos, why? Because everything we have on Ragnos is pure speculation.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.

Although you are an excellent debator, you have very biased opinions, you assume the best for Sidious and the worse for Ragnos, such as Nihilus, you so its "probable" that he has a blocking technique for Nihilus's drain attack, and im not denying that he doesnt. Just notice how you've assumed that he DOES, and not that he DOESNT, you evidently favour him over although characters.

After rereading the old debates and reading the new ones, everything that surrounds the Ancient Sith is speculation and a debate involving any of them against any Jedi/Sith that we have evidence on, will never end, simply because you cannot prove without launching feat wars, which obviously means that someone such as JA Kyle Katarn would surpass them in power.

By all means continue arguing who's more powerful, you'll never succeed in solidly establishing DE Sidious/DN Luke > Ragnos nor Ragnos > DN Luke/DE Sidious.

There will always be people on both sides..

Cyz

Originally posted by Deception
Although you people have been debating his power endlessly.

I believe its time to put an end to this debate.

I agree with those such as Escape81, although Ragnos is described to having tremendous power and phyiscal strength, we just do not have enough proof.

However saying DE Sidious, Yoda and the Jedi/Sith that have solid evidence on their power can defeat Ragnos is entirely absurd.

Lightsnake, you cannot definitely prove that DE Sidious was the most powerful of the most powerful. Yes he was described in various sources as that powerful, however you cannot compare him to Ragnos, why? Because everything we have on Ragnos is pure speculation.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.

Although you are an excellent debator, you have very biased opinions, you assume the best for Sidious and the worse for Ragnos, such as Nihilus, you so its "probable" that he has a blocking technique for Nihilus's drain attack, and im not denying that he doesnt. Just notice how you've assumed that he DOES, and not that he DOESNT, you evidently favour him over although characters.

After rereading the old debates and reading the new ones, everything that surrounds the Ancient Sith is speculation and a debate involving any of them against any Jedi/Sith that we have evidence on, will never end, simply because you cannot prove without launching feat wars, which obviously means that someone such as JA Kyle Katarn would surpass them in power.

By all means continue arguing who's more powerful, you'll never succeed in solidly establishing DE Sidious/DN Luke > Ragnos nor Ragnos > DN Luke/DE Sidious.

There will always be people on both sides..

Cyz

Originally posted by D-Paper Weight
aye, but tisnt it fun to have a freindly arguement?

Ha. The arguments never turn out friendly, amigo.

Sure they do. I mean, take you for example Motoko, you've never ONCE insulted anyone, or shown any frusteration or anger.

😛

How true. I guess I'm the "KMC Angel". 😇 Ha, yeah right.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers

Okay...

Originally posted by Deception
Although you people have been debating his power endlessly.

I believe its time to put an end to this debate.

I agree with those such as Escape81, although Ragnos is described to having tremendous power and phyiscal strength, we just do not have enough proof.

However saying DE Sidious, Yoda and the Jedi/Sith that have solid evidence on their power can defeat Ragnos is entirely absurd.

Lightsnake, you cannot definitely prove that DE Sidious was the most powerful of the most powerful. Yes he was described in various sources as that powerful, however you cannot compare him to Ragnos, why? Because everything we have on Ragnos is pure speculation.

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.

Although you are an excellent debator, you have very biased opinions, you assume the best for Sidious and the worse for Ragnos, such as Nihilus, you so its "probable" that he has a blocking technique for Nihilus's drain attack, and im not denying that he doesnt. Just notice how you've assumed that he DOES, and not that he DOESNT, you evidently favour him over although characters.

After rereading the old debates and reading the new ones, everything that surrounds the Ancient Sith is speculation and a debate involving any of them against any Jedi/Sith that we have evidence on, will never end, simply because you cannot prove without launching feat wars, which obviously means that someone such as JA Kyle Katarn would surpass them in power.

By all means continue arguing who's more powerful, you'll never succeed in solidly establishing DE Sidious/DN Luke > Ragnos nor Ragnos > DN Luke/DE Sidious.

There will always be people on both sides..

Cyz

Amen

Alright then, Deception, then why didn't people on this forum-you included- stop with the 'Ragnos was so godly, he could take Luke, Exar Kun and Yoda all at once and would probably win' bull? If someone brought up this point ages back, such flame wars never would have happened

If we argue from what we know, then we can assume something rather fairly. In universe or without as well

It's called balance lightsnake, now we have stupidity such as "Yoda could take on the ancient sith" and "Sidious pwns".

Unfortunately, we tend to have evidence rather than hearsay

'For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.'

Well that's not totally true - we can actually deduce quite a bit. We all know that the ancient sith with their amulets could accomplish and do some pretty incredible things (making stars go nova, creating mass illusions that could become real etc.) - they were described as godly. We also know that Ragnos was described as the top dog of all the ancient sith and anybody up until his time, the best of the best. Even someone as powerful as Kreia stated that Marka ragnos was incredibly strong both in the force and physically, and that he had a frightening grasp of the dark side.

We also know that he remained dark lord of the sith and nobody was ever able to usurp his title (remember, this was at a time where civil war and rebellion was common), and he was able to keep his title for centuries (it seems) and only died of natural causes.

Now while we have never actually seen him do jack when he was in his prime, a good way to compare how powerful he was is by comparing the capabilities of his spirit with others. Now although as spirits, Kun was able to do much more and was a way bigger threat, and simply outclassed him, Ragnos' spirit was 1,000 years older and spirits naturally decrease in power over the years, so I thought I'd just point that out.

I myself actually believe that there are probably a few that would be able to take him, but I agree with Deception that there is really no way to know and I do believe he's slightly underrated.

Although you people have been debating his power endlessly.

I believe its time to put an end to this debate.

I agree with those such as Escape81, although Ragnos is described to having tremendous power and phyiscal strength, we just do not have enough proof.

Well, let it be known that none of us - especially myself - have ever denied that Ragnos was not, at least, one of the most powerful Sith Lords out there. Nor have we ever denied that he was the strongest of the Ancient Sith.

However saying DE Sidious, Yoda and the Jedi/Sith that have solid evidence on their power can defeat Ragnos is entirely absurd.

How so?

If I may say so, you in the past have argued strongly in the favor of the Ancient Sith's supremecy and dominance, when we simply have nothing to support that theory in the slightest. We have proven that, outside Naga Sadow's technology, he has done nothing absolutely noteworthy.

Also, considering how Lucas referred to the PT as the prime of the Jedi, I am inclined to think that both factions (Sith and Jedi) increased in power as time progressed. Perhaps not even as a whole, but in some cases. Which would explain why multiple sources verbally fellate Palpatine as much as they do.

Lightsnake, you cannot definitely prove that DE Sidious was the most powerful of the most powerful. Yes he was described in various sources as that powerful, however you cannot compare him to Ragnos, why? Because everything we have on Ragnos is pure speculation.

a. More sources label Palpatine as the most powerful than any other Sith Lord - Ragnos and Kun included.

b. Once again, I ask you, then how is it that you compared them both on previous occasions?

For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.

Not likely.

Although you are an excellent debator, you have very biased opinions, you assume the best for Sidious and the worse for Ragnos, such as Nihilus, you so its "probable" that he has a blocking technique for Nihilus's drain attack, and im not denying that he doesnt. Just notice how you've assumed that he DOES, and not that he DOESNT, you evidently favour him over although characters.

I never agreed that he has a blocking technique for it (and I realized that this is mostly addressed to Lightsnake), but we have already proven that Palpatine himself is capable of personally draining planets - even methodically and experimentally - whereas, as far as we know, Ragnos required a scepter.

After rereading the old debates and reading the new ones, everything that surrounds the Ancient Sith is speculation and a debate involving any of them against any Jedi/Sith that we have evidence on, will never end, simply because you cannot prove without launching feat wars, which obviously means that someone such as JA Kyle Katarn would surpass them in power.

No. I agree that the topmost Ancient Sith (Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, Simus) are among the most powerful of Force users. But given the previous facts, I do not consider them the most powerful. I consider Kun and Palpatine to be - at the very least - their equals, and NJO/LotF Luke to be leagues above them.

By all means continue arguing who's more powerful, you'll never succeed in solidly establishing DE Sidious/DN Luke > Ragnos nor Ragnos > DN Luke/DE Sidious.

There will always be people on both sides..

We have amassed more proof and evidence than the others have, so while we may not ever prove it with a statement that "the Ancient Sith are inferior", we are - by evidence (or lack thereof on the opposition's parts) winning the debate.

Interesting. I don't believe the Sith/Jedi got better, I think with the exception of some, they got worse, techniques got lost, etc. Palpatine being stated as the best means nothing except for the fact that he was Lucas' personal creation, which is enough for him to be up there, along with everybody from all 6 movies. I do not consider the likes of Kun to be on par with Ragnos, perhaps Sadow maybe. But obviously by DN, Luke is already a force god beyond everybody.

Lucas's statement that the PT was the "Prime of the Jedi" directly contradicts that opinion. The PT Jedi were, as a whole, superior to any before it - and likely - any after it.

Whoa whoa escape, it actually supports it. Lucas' own personal creation take priority over anything else. The PT Jedi were superior in what exactly? Saber combat? We've had discussions about this. You're claiming that the PT Jedi were superior to before them, to the NJO Jedi, etc? Come on.

The Prime of The Jedi article and video (http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/bts/me1/6.html) was clearly imo disregarding the EU. I've already posted my reasons and I'm sure that many (Deception perhaps) will agree - when the PT is stated to be the Prime of the Jedi, it is stated in regards to choreography and in comparison to the OT, which leads me to believe that Lucas was disregarding the EU. He also states it in a casual but extremely vague way, and the ambiguity of the statement makes it hard for me to accept it as fact.
Now I'm not saying that the PT order couldn't have been the most powerful order, but that article far from proves it imo.

Let's assume Ragnos could throw stars around like we used to, it is fun for DBZ SW fans.

EDIT

Originally posted by Sith'ari
'For all you know, Ragnos could have some power that could blow up the galaxy or he may just be a fraud having no amazing powers.'

Well that's not totally true - we can actually deduce quite a bit. We all know that the ancient sith with their amulets could accomplish and do some pretty incredible things (making stars go nova, creating mass illusions that could become real etc.) - they were described as godly. We also know that Ragnos was described as the top dog of all the ancient sith and anybody up until his time, the best of the best. Even someone as powerful as Kreia stated that Marka ragnos was incredibly strong both in the force and physically, and that he had a frightening grasp of the dark side.

We also know that he remained dark lord of the sith and nobody was ever able to usurp his title (remember, this was at a time where civil war and rebellion was common), and he was able to keep his title for centuries (it seems) and only died of natural causes.

Now while we have never actually seen him do jack when he was in his prime, a good way to compare how powerful he was is by comparing the capabilities of his spirit with others. Now although as spirits, Kun was able to do much more and was a way bigger threat, and simply outclassed him, Ragnos' spirit was 1,000 years older and spirits naturally decrease in power over the years, so I thought I'd just point that out.

I myself actually believe that there are probably a few that would be able to take him, but I agree with Deception that there is really no way to know and I do believe he's slightly underrated.

I agree with you, but without sufficient sources and evidence i doubt people like lightsnake will change their opinions of their idols. No offense meant, i admit im a fanboy of a sort, but as you can see i'm taking a very objective view, and in a sense reasonable.

Look very carefully, you guys are debating over speculation vs evidence. Oh yes Escape "his labelled as the most powerful" the narrator labelled Ragnos as the THE Dark Lord of the Sith, so you want to ignore one piece of description and use another? By all means Sidious accomplished more and has around 20000000 more sources on him, and he might be stronger he might not. I'm asking to stop these debates that arouse so much hatred within this forum

To Lightsnake, well i DID think of Ragnos as GODLY and the BEST and my personal opinion still complies with it, but i have nothing but speculation and a few descriptions backing me up. Whilst you have a fair amount of sources and feats.

By all means keep your personal opinion, as eveyone is entitled to theirs and you should have noticed this is my first time in the forum for a while, quite frankly you guys can utter as much bullshit as i did and the rest of the Ragnos supporters.

Originally posted by Deception
I agree with you, but without sufficient sources and evidence i doubt people like lightsnake will change their opinions of their idols. No offense meant, i admit im a fanboy of a sort, but as you can see i'm taking a very objective view, and in a sense reasonable.

Look very carefully, you guys are debating over speculation vs evidence. Oh yes Escape "his labelled as the most powerful" the narrator labelled Ragnos as the THE Dark Lord of the Sith, so you want to ignore one piece of description and use another? By all means Sidious accomplished more and has around 20000000 more sources on him, and he might be stronger he might not. I'm asking to stop these debates that arouse so much hatred within this forum

To Lightsnake, well i DID think of Ragnos as GODLY and the BEST and my personal opinion still complies with it, but i have nothing but speculation and a few descriptions backing me up. Whilst you have a fair amount of sources and feats.

By all means keep your personal opinion, as eveyone is entitled to theirs and you should have noticed this is my first time in the forum for a while, quite frankly you guys can utter as much bullshit as i did and the rest of the Ragnos supporters.

I completely agree, but I am also a Ragnos+Ancient Sith fan.