The Ancient Sith

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok so in your logic, the PT Jedi>Luke, Kype, Kyle too?

I've said my opinion on this before. Do I need to go over it again?

Lucas said that "the prime of the Jedi" was in the PT. The Jedi Order. That means, as a whole - the PT Jedi is more powerful than the NJO Jedi.

But, that does not mean every single PT Jedi is superior to every other Jedi.

There are exceptions.

Edit: Furthermore, I would strongly advise that you stop using Nebaris's pathetic logic. If you are arrogant to believe that your pathetic opinion is even "on par" with Lucas's statements, then you are sadly mistaken.

whoa whoa, when did I say I agree with Nebaris? And when did my opinion become pathetic? You need to calm the **** down and realize this is a star wars forum, not something meaningful.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
whoa whoa, when did I say I agree with Nebaris? And when did my opinion become pathetic? You need to calm the **** down and realize this is a star wars forum, not something meaningful.

Then don't feed me this crap here:

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Ok so in your logic, the PT Jedi>Luke, Kype, Kyle too?

It is Lucas who made such logic. It is Lucas who decides what is law and fact in Star Wars, and it is Lucas who says that the Prequel Trilogy was "the prime of the Jedi". Meaning his logic is the dominant one.

I have offered an explanation as to the possible discrepencies. But if you want to argue against his logic, do it with someone who thinks your opinion is worth something compared to his.

To be honest, I dont give a cow what Lucas thinks, the guys made enough bad mistakes during his career to warrent that criticism. See, if everyone just interpreted things in there own way, like your supposed to, then it'd be fine...but it seems we are stuck in some machevellian race of who is the best 😑

When you say "The PT Jedi>Everybody else", what do you think that means? You translate that into "the whole amount", while to me it means every PT Jedi is more powerful than every other Jedi in every other era. Furthermore I could care less if you think my opinion isn't worth it. It's a hell of a lot better than "Oh lucas says this lucas says that therefore I don't have to give me input because lucas said so".

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When you say "The PT Jedi>Everybody else", what do you think that means? You translate that into "the whole amount", while to me it means every PT Jedi is more powerful than every other Jedi in every other era. Furthermore I could care less if you think my opinion isn't worth it. It's a hell of a lot better than "Oh lucas says this lucas says that therefore I don't have to give me input because lucas said so".

The quote was "the PT was the prime of the Jedi". If you wish to get all pissy because Lucas's opinion = law, while yours = jack, then that's fine by me. But no where does it state that "everyone in the PT was better than everyone else. Period."

Oh, and, while we're at it, I base my opinions and arguments on fact, provided by Lucas and such, and rarely do I go outside of those bounds. If Lucas says something regarding Star Wars, and my opinion conflicts with it, then my opinion is wrong. Don't presume that yours is above that.

Originally posted by Escape81
The quote was "the PT was the prime of the Jedi". If you wish to get all pissy because Lucas's opinion = law, while yours = jack, then that's fine by me. But no where does it state that "everyone in the PT was better than everyone else. Period."

Oh, and, while we're at it, I base my opinions and arguments on fact, provided by Lucas and such, and rarely do I go outside of those bounds. If Lucas says something regarding Star Wars, and my opinion conflicts with it, then my opinion is wrong. Don't presume that yours is above that.

Hey mate, dont worry, your opinion can never be wrong. You just gotta believe in yourself 🙂

k?

Originally posted by exanda kane
Hey mate, dont worry, your opinion can never be wrong. You just gotta believe in yourself 🙂

k?

Um... opinions can be wrong...

Originally posted by Escape81
The quote was "the PT was the prime of the Jedi". If you wish to get all pissy because Lucas's opinion = law, while yours = jack, then that's fine by me. But no where does it state that "everyone in the PT was better than everyone else. Period."

Oh, and, while we're at it, I base my opinions and arguments on fact, provided by Lucas and such, and rarely do I go outside of those bounds. If Lucas says something regarding Star Wars, and my opinion conflicts with it, then my opinion is wrong. Don't presume that yours is above that.

Uh wait, you throw a temper tantrum and call my opinion irrelevant and meaningless and IM pissy? Wow, can we say projection? I never argued once with lucas so quit your annoying bitching and move on with your life.

Escape I can understand that you hate me, although I don't know why and you have no reason to do so, but can you please put a stop to this online vendetta you have against me. The main reasons why you are actually so respected on this forum is because of your seemingly unbias and unaggressive attitude. You however are actually turning into an antediluvian and a huge fanboy, and believe me, you are losing a lot of respect because of it.

Anyways if Lucas makes it completely clear that the jedi order seen in the first 3 episodes is the most powerful jedi order there ever was and ever will be, I of course wouldn't attempt to refute that.
However, the statement was:
1. Very unclear, ambiguous and vague.
2. Made in the point of view of choreography (and so only applies to the movies).
In other words, Lucas was disregarding the EU and only considering the movies, thus the statement doesn't apply to the EU.

Well again as a whole it could potentially be true. In regards to the most powerful jedi, it could be argued that it was that era, or the NJO, or more logically the old republic era that produced the likes of Kun, Nadd, Revan, Malak, and Qel Droma.

Originally posted by Escape81
Um... opinions can be wrong...

Look,look,look, your going about this all wrong. You seem at war with yourself, and thats just not cricket dear.

You need to see a counsellor as soon and possible and raise that self esteem! You can do anything and no damn naysayer will say anything about it!

Thats the positive attitude you need sonny jim.

I doubt it. Don't you happen to find it odd that the jedi at their best in terms of saber combat would be in a relatively peaceful period which saw very little combat (especially saber combat - hardly any) and where the most practiced form was Niman - the diplomat's form? I mean the dueling form, Makashi was considered long forgotten and ancient, and only practiced by a few. Now I agree that the PT order produced a few exceptional duelists (Dooku, Yoda, Mace), however as a whole it is illogical to believe that it was the strongest order in terms of dueling simply because there was so little saber combat. And that quote hardly proves it.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Look,look,look, your going about this all wrong. You seem at war with yourself, and thats just not cricket dear.

You need to see a counsellor as soon and possible and raise that self esteem! You can do anything and no damn naysayer will say anything about it!

Thats the positive attitude you need sonny jim.

Escape got burned.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I doubt it. Don't you happen to find it odd that the jedi at their best in terms of saber combat would be in a relatively peaceful period which saw very little combat (especially saber combat - hardly any) and where the most practiced form was Niman - the diplomat's form? I mean the dueling form, Makashi was considered long forgotten and ancient, and only practiced by a few. Now I agree that the PT order produced a few exceptional duelists (Dooku, Yoda, Mace), however as a whole it is illogical to believe that it was the strongest order in terms of dueling simply because there was so little saber combat. And that quote hardly proves it.

Perhaps but I do see that while other eras might have more powerful jedi in terms of the best of the best, the PT era produced the MOST consistent Jedi, meaning you have at least 6 that are pretty damn powerful while in other eras you have 3-4 tops.

Originally posted by Sith'ari

Anyways if Lucas makes it completely clear that the jedi order seen in the first 3 episodes is the most powerful jedi order there ever was and ever will be, I of course wouldn't attempt to refute that.
However, the statement was:
1. Very unclear, ambiguous and vague.
2. Made in the point of view of choreography (and so only applies to the movies).
In other words, Lucas was disregarding the EU and only considering the movies, thus the statement doesn't apply to the EU.

I'll add to that. As usual Uncle George messed things up and made a very strange and vague statement. He says the Jedi were at there prime. Now the key word there is prime, for it can be intepreted in many different ways, much like the jedi can be from the viewer. Now theres many different mediums in which we do see Jedi so its all going to affect peoples intepretations.

We have those from the "video game" crowd who think of Jedi in terms of warriors and swordsman, we have the fans of the original trilogy that think of them as knights of honour and justice, we have those who saw the originals and watch them be absorped into pop culture and see them as mysterious and slightly pathetic wisemen and we have the new generation of kiddies thinking of Jedi as CGI ninjas more suited to an anime film. Now from all of those different interpretations and the many others there are, Lucas has picked a term which could mean all of them, or just a one of them.

Now probably, as it is Lucas he thinks of Jedi in his own way and disregards all the EU material which gives a deeper meaning to the Jedi, so he uses prime as a very generic term, hence why many arguments using this statement are void. We do not know what he is talking about, is it the methods, leadership, beliefs, ideals, impact on the galaxy, individual people in the order, the orders popularity...we just do not know.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I'll add to that. As usual Uncle George messed things up and made a very strange and vague statement. He says the Jedi were at there prime. Now the key word there is prime, for it can be intepreted in many different ways, much like the jedi can be from the viewer. Now theres many different mediums in which we do see Jedi so its all going to affect peoples intepretations.

We have those from the "video game" crowd who think of Jedi in terms of warriors and swordsman, we have the fans of the original trilogy that think of them as knights of honour and justice, we have those who saw the originals and watch them be absorped into pop culture and see them as mysterious and slightly pathetic wisemen and we have the new generation of kiddies thinking of Jedi as CGI ninjas more suited to an anime film. Now from all of those different interpretations and the many others there are, Lucas has picked a term which could mean all of them, or just a one of them.

Now probably, as it is Lucas he thinks of Jedi in his own way and disregards all the EU material which gives a deeper meaning to the Jedi, so he uses prime as a very generic term, hence why many arguments using this statement are void. We do not know what he is talking about, is it the methods, leadership, beliefs, ideals, impact on the galaxy, individual people in the order, the orders popularity...we just do not know.

Wow, that actually made sense, however.

On one hand, prime is a very conclusive term. On the other hand, i've always maintained that the "Golden Age" of the Jedi which took place in and before TPM i think, is the age of peace, not power. Obviously there is the conflict of Naboo but then again, it could have been the only conflict at that time, and a small one at that. This is just a theory. I'm just rambling so anyways, prime in this case is a very vague term in terms of the jedi, as opposed to something like "The Golden Age of the Sith", which was stated as the apex of sith knowledge, and sith alchemy.

I've PM'ed Ush. I told him about the situation and asked him to look into it, which I'm sure that he will. But, back to the argument:

a. I want it made clear that I never said nor implied that the PT Jedi Order's members were intrinsically more powerful than any other Jedi we've ever featured. However, given that their number standed at 10,000 or so - and that they spawned the prodigies such as: Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa, and so forth - they would be considered, as a whole, the prime of the Jedi, coordinating with Lucas's statements.

b. That doesn't mean that every single one of their number is more powerful. Aside from Yoda, Windu, and Dooku, I'm not aware of any PT Jedi who could hope to contend with the likes of Exar Kun or the other former Jedi. However, only a select few are to be considered more powerful than the PT generation.

c. What exactly leads you to believe that the "golden age" is to be translated differently for the Sith and Jedi? Modern day usage of that phrase indicates both size and power. Why should it be different for the Jedi, in Star Wars? But that isn't to say that there aren't some Sith and some Jedi before and after who haven't been as - or more - powerful.

Oh, and Exanda, I doubt I'll take the advice from a person who thinks that Revan is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, lol.

Originally posted by Escape81
I've PM'ed Ush. I told him about the situation and asked him to look into it, which I'm sure that he will. But, back to the argument:

a. I want it made clear that I never said nor implied that the PT Jedi Order's members were intrinsically more powerful than any other Jedi we've ever featured. However, given that their number standed at 10,000 or so - and that they spawned the prodigies such as: Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Depa, and so forth - they would be considered, as a whole, the prime of the Jedi, coordinating with Lucas's statements.

b. That doesn't mean that every single one of their number is more powerful. Aside from Yoda, Windu, and Dooku, I'm not aware of any PT Jedi who could hope to contend with the likes of Exar Kun or the other former Jedi. However, only a select few are to be considered more powerful than the PT generation.

c. What exactly leads you to believe that the "golden age" is to be translated differently for the Sith and Jedi? Modern day usage of that phrase indicates both size and power. Why should it be different for the Jedi, in Star Wars? But that isn't to say that there aren't some Sith and some Jedi before and after who haven't been as - or more - powerful.

Oh, and Exanda, I doubt I'll take the advice from a person who thinks that Revan is the most powerful Sith Lord ever, lol.

I agree with you on everything except C and I'll explain why. I have always had the belief that the GAOTS and GAOTJ are two different things. For the Sith, they are all about knowledge and power, which is why their golden age was the apex of both knowledge and power. This is all they care about.

Now for Jedi, their "balance of the force" is peace. Notice how in GAOTS Memit Nadill stated "I will turn off by lightsaber and hope I never have to use it again in battle". This states that a Jedi's ideal reality is peace. Jedi don't vie for power nor have a thirst or quest for knowledge(which leads to the darkside). They maintain peace and order in the galaxy, therefore their golden age is translated differently than the sith.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I agree with you on everything except C and I'll explain why. I have always had the belief that the GAOTS and GAOTJ are two different things. For the Sith, they are all about knowledge and power, which is why their golden age was the apex of both knowledge and power. This is all they care about.

Now for Jedi, their "balance of the force" is peace. Notice how in GAOTS Memit Nadill stated "I will turn off by lightsaber and hope I never have to use it again in battle". This states that a Jedi's ideal reality is peace. Jedi don't vie for power nor have a thirst or quest for knowledge(which leads to the darkside). They maintain peace and order in the galaxy, therefore their golden age is translated differently than the sith.

Yes, but since when does "the golden age" mean "everything they care about"?