Originally posted by Lightsnake
What are you talking about?Vodo says it himself and even during the fight he keeps trying to turn Kun.
And are you aware how dumb that sounds? People find out a lot more upon reflection. Vodo had four thousand years to recall his failure and decided he couldn't fight Kun.End of story.
Lightsnake, what took place before and during the fight>4,000 years later when Vodo had a chance to think about it as a spirit. Vodo SAID he was going to stop Kun, the narration said he was going to stop Kun, so until you stop arguing with facts, you are going to look like a fool each time.
Vodo said it was Exar who must be stopped. He tries to recruit Kun back. He later admits he couldn't fight Kun.
You're the one arguing with facts. In fact, you're arguing with what KJa wrote down and with what Vodo's spirit admits. Unless Vodo is totally wrong after years of reflection on the subject-which, y'know, grants insight...That's a pretty basic concept. Later reflection breeds understanding.
Once aain, I believe Vodo.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Vodo said it was Exar who must be stopped. He tries to recruit Kun back. He later admits he couldn't fight Kun.You're the one arguing with facts. In fact, you're arguing with what KJa wrote down and with what Vodo's spirit admits. Unless Vodo is totally wrong after years of reflection on the subject-which, y'know, grants insight...That's a pretty basic concept. Later reflection breeds understanding.
Once aain, I believe Vodo.
You believe whatever you want to believe that states your case. Once again, the fight takes place then and there, not 4,000 years later, so facts>your opinions. Sorry buddy.
Hm, margin of power?
Vodo was using a breakable stick, couldn't bring himself to truly fight exar-he even said this himself- .
Funny that you left out the fact that the stick was able to withstand the strongest weapons in SW with respect to sheer cutting power. He was also a master who was six centuries old, with a greater knowledge base than what Yoda possessed, and was renknowned as one of the order's best duelists.
and still held onto hope his apprentice could be saved to the end
So you are saying that because Vodo "hoped" his apprentice would turn, he would be fighting at a lower level? Bullshit.
He knew that Exar Kun had to be "stopped." He knew that Kun was the source of the problem, and do you think wise Vodo would be fighting poorly when he knew the fate of the galaxy would be at stake if he lost?
You also seem to think that the disadvantage was solely Vodo's. If I recall correctly, Exar Kun also "hoped" that his master would turn to the darkside. If you look at the picture:
Notice how he says, "join me master Vodo", even as the battle is nearing to a close. Exar tooled Vodo purely based on skill. Nothing would suggest the battle is onesided.
Yoda's stronger, faster, more agile and won't hesitate to kill Mr. Kun.
Your point? Either way this is a debate for another time, and you still have not backed up this claim, Snakeyboy.
Fact remains. Yoda>Vodo.
What are you trying to get with this? I would most likely agree with you on this point, but I wouldn't argue that Yoda is significantly stronger. Also, it still does not diminish the fact that Kun removed this powerful Jedi with ease.
oh, last I checked, only took Nomi seconds to defeat Ulic completely when she got angry at him- would do as well against the Jedi of the stronger age...how?
Nomi took down Ulic...Oh my. Did you choose to ignore the fact that Ulic was carrying his dead brother in his arms, fully realizing the atrocity that he just committed? The emotional state of Ulic left little in the way for organizing a defence against the force block that Nomi was using. Here maybe this picture will fill you in on the details.
He isn't even listening to Nomi. He is still focusing on the corpse of his brother. Do you really think he was trying to put up a defence?
Nai's given the best reasons already. When Kun can overcome a vaapad master where his own dark power'd be no use and the shatterpoint, which is a gift inherent to Mace..
But most likely, Ulic would come to Kun's aid, and the two lightsaber prodigies make a firm victory against Windu.
1. Vodo had no method to defeat Exar...he was using an already broken stick at that. He taped it back and had seen it broken before.
2. Vodo ADMITS that he couldn't truly fight Exar, why do people keep ignoring this point? And Exar knew Vodo wasn't turning. He said it himself when Vodo refused the first time: Whatever.
And he's telling Vodo to join him after he slashes him...Vodo's defeated right there...when he refuses, Kun slices him in two.
3. Yoda: declared the strongest Jedi ever by the time of PT. Fact? Fact.
he was able to best three Jedi at once, including a Vaapad master with his speed and ability. Fact? Fact.
4. Anyone could argue Thon and Arca were stronger than Vodo...Vodo doesn't have much going for him. Yoda is definitely stronger than Vodo though. He's also able to carry house sized guns on his back
, move around faster than most eyes can detect, spin circles around most fighters with his agility...want me to link you to the thread where this was debate with Nai? It says a lot more than I could.
6. My point is: If people slam Vodo for losing to Kun when he later admits he couldn't fight him truly, then by the same logic, Ulic lost to Nomi when she attacked him.
7. You mean Ulic would turn his back on Depa, letting her spear him? Mace also has his shatterpoint ability against these two...something innate to him. That's an edge to Mace
Originally posted by zephiel7
What is this, are you stating that experience = skill? That assumption flops when Luke defeated DE Palpatine in a lightsaber duel (a much older and much more trained duelist), and when Exar Kun demonstrated his ability to defeat a 600 year old Jedi master (with no effort) who was the master duelist of his time.
Oh damn. Let's simply ignore that Sidious at this point didn't have a lightsaber in hands for more than 3 decades and let us also ignore that Luke at this point has basically done nothing else but fighting for a decade (at least 8 years of it using his lightsaber). Aside of this he had possibly help from Leia using some minor battle meditation. So what ?
Years of experience does not necessarily mean stronger in Star Wars.
No. It's a mixture of potential, training and experience. Both Mace and Kun are descriped as lightsaber prodigies (so quite equal "potential" in terms of duelling abilities) but Mace had more training, more duels and more actual battle experience. Who wins ?
Also I like it how you assume that Exar Kun pulled the double bladed style out of his ass when he duelled against Vodo. Did it occur to you that he may of developed the technique all along (he did use two sabers against Vodo). Yes, it was a far longer process than you seem to think it was.
Even the lowest light in this forum should see that handling one lightsaber with two blades is different from handling two lightsabers. And unless Kun happened to be 50 years old in the comics (which I pretty much doubt) there is no way he could have had as much training and time to perfect his own style as Mace has.
Much like how Sidious was described as the "most powerful Sith Lord by ROTS" even despite KJA coming on these boards and stating that it was flat out untrue? Really how do you assume that Yoda is stronger than a Jedi that can maintain the required concentration to empower his staff to withstand a lightsaber (known to cut through virtually anything). Let's not forget folks that Kun managed to cut through Vodo's staff and end the Jedi master's life with no effort.
Stop the bullshitting, please. Where did KJA come to this board and told us it was untrue ? He told us that according to his own opinion the question, who the strongest Sith Lord was had to be decided by a battle between Kun and Sidious. So what ? ROTS novel = G-Canon > Anderson's personal opinion. Sorry.
And wow...because Vodo managed to make his stuff strong enough to withstand a lightsaber he must be more powerful than Yoda ? Corran Horn was able to grab a lightsaber with his bare hands just receinving some minor charring of the skin because of his skills in energy absorbation. He must be invincible, correct ?
Either way, I was not arguing whether Kun would defeat Windu in a straight out lightsaber fight. Mace would be at a disadvantage because Depa would be out before the actual battle.
ROFL. How will Ulic manage to take Depa down in a lightsaber fight if Depa's bladework exceeds that of Mace ?
I suppose if Depa "east Indian wannabee" Billaba having better bladework than Mace would easily be able to tool Sidious, Yoda, and Dooku in a straight out saber fight then? Do you have any proof that Depa's bladework was better than Mace other than senseless opinions? It is well known that Windu treated and felt for Bilaba like a daughter.
Oh...we just have Mace's own opinion and aside of this Yoda agreed that Mace is the only Jedi able to take down Depa in a lightsaber duel (himself aside). So what ?
I suppose an opinion from Mace is enough to justify how Billaba could triumph over Ulic. 🙄 Despite the fact that Qel Droma defeated Mandalore in a duel despite EXTREMELY unfavorable circumstances. The same Qel Droma that was able to tie an angry Cathar Jedi (whilst being seperated from the force) and also stalemate the mighty Exar Kun (who defeated the most powerful duelist of his order with no apparent difficulty)
Oh my...more bullshit.
Defeating a non-force user is such a great action. Read Shatterpoint. Mace takes down two gunboats attacking him. Depa jumps into a gunboat, slaughters the entire crew and then proceeds to redirect blasterfire from two different directions into a small hole on a moving target.
And Ulic "tied" Sylvar ? I guess this is why Sylvar was constantly pushing him back until he was standing on a nice edge, correct ?
And since when is Vodo the most powerful duelist of his order, huh ? Did we see him even winning a fight ? Was it mentioned that he was exceptionally good duellist ? Force powers ? The same...So what makes you believe that Vodo was the best duellist of the order or exceptional powerful ?
Training time is not a relevant factor in Star Wars. Some characters are simply more prodigous than others. In a straight out lightsaber duel, Ulic would defeat Depa. Please give some tangible proof that Depa is as great as you presume. You state that she "mastered" certain forms, but yyou seem to ignore the fact that Ulic and Kun were also described as being "master" swordsmen.
Read Shatterpoint and see for yourself.
- Yoda and Mace both believe that Depa is the best duellist in the order close to them
- Mace says her bladework alone surpassed his Vaapad
- she jumps into a gunboat and slaughters the entire crew on her own (20 or 30 people)
- she picks up another lightsaber an deflects blasterfire from two direction while on a flying vessel (Sidenote: Luminara thought herself to be unable to deflect blasterfire from multiple direction despite the fact that she was a Soresu master - and the only persons seen to do something like that are Mace in AotC and Yoda in ROTS)
- then she redirects the blaster bolts into a small hole on a moving target
Aside of this: Please stop handing me the "master swordsmen" as an argument that Kun and Ulic are unbeatable. Every dumbass that is able to handle a lightsaber is a master swordsman in Star Wars. This includes people like Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar - didn't help them against Sidious. And do you want to tell me that Nomi Sunrider was able to beat every other Jedi because she "handled the lightsaber like a master" when she picked up such a weapon for the first time ?
Right... Form V, and who told you this Barborad? Was it simply observation, or do you have a source for this information. For all you know it could have been a self made form much like Luke's. Just because it "looks" like form 5, does not mean that it is.
Yes. Let's just ignore the fact that we only saw three people handling a lightsaber before the comics were written: Luke, Vader and Obi-Wan. Let's ignore that the only "description" of a lightsaber fight Veitch and Anderson had was that what they had seen in the movies. Let's ignore how no other "forms" (and therefore ways to handle the lightsaber) did exist as the "seven forms" were invented after TPM was released. Let's ignore that form V is the only form that features wide, powerful, two-handed swings (exactly the way Kun and Ulic use to handle their weapons) and the only form that was ever shown to be used before the comics were written.
A self-made form like Luke's when we know that Luke used form V in ESB and ROTJ ?
So let's get that straight: Because the only form the writers of the comics had ever seen in action was form V, because no lightsaber forms did exist in the EU at that point and because we see them moving exactly like form V users - they are not using form V. Of course...when I see somebody standing in front of a wall, see some jet of liquid coming out of his pants, see the wall getting wet and see a small puddle come into being close to the wall - I will not assume that he's urinating but instead think that he's cleaning the wall with his invisible garden hose that doesn't need a water source...
Oh damn. Let's simply ignore that Sidious at this point didn't have a lightsaber in hands for more than 3 decades and let us also ignore that Luke at this point has basically done nothing else but fighting for a decade (at least 8 years of it using his lightsaber).
How much more lightsaber fighting has Sidious seen? Also how much more stronger opponents did he have to fight against? Luke has eight years of experience (maybe) under his belt, but Sidious has had far more. You were arguing that years of experience automatically equals skill, which has been shown to be untrue.
Even the lowest light in this forum should see that handling one lightsaber with two blades is different from handling two lightsabers. And unless Kun happened to be 50 years old in the comics (which I pretty much doubt) there is no way he could have had as much training and time to perfect his own style as Mace has.
And even the lowest light can see that they both require more co-ordination than handling one lightsaber. Developing a double bladed lightsaber style is not something that can be done in a day. Obviously Kun was familiarizing with multiweapon fighting before evolving his form into his unique double bladed lightsaber style. You were thinking that his double bladed lightsaber was a half hazard device that he just popped out of his ass while he was duelling Vodo, which I have shown was not.
Stop the bullshitting, please. Where did KJA come to this board and told us it was untrue ? He told us that according to his own opinion the question, who the strongest Sith Lord was had to be decided by a battle between Kun and Sidious. So what ? ROTS novel = G-Canon > Anderson's personal opinion. Sorry.
My bad, I mean Dan Wallace.
This was in the "Marka Ragnos is the most powerful sith lord" thread. Snake called KJA who confirmed that "ROTS Sidious" being the most powerful Sith Lord was untrue. He said that it was a bias by whoever wrote that portion of the NEC.
And wow...because Vodo managed to make his stuff strong enough to withstand a lightsaber he must be more powerful than Yoda ? Corran Horn was able to grab a lightsaber with his bare hands just receinving some minor charring of the skin because of his skills in energy absorbation. He must be invincible, correct ?
Then I suppose Yoda absorbing and reflecting Sith Lightning is not "all that" either? You seem to be putting down energy absorption. Vodo was able to maintain such a device with his concentration and ALSO duel efficiently at the same time.
Oh...we just have Mace's own opinion and aside of this Yoda agreed that Mace is the only Jedi able to take down Depa in a lightsaber duel (himself aside). So what ?
Among whom? Define the context. What other Jedi, where there. Kit Fisto? *yawn*. Weaker version of Ani and Ben? *yawn*
The Jedi that were gunned down by clone troopers? *Yawn*
Lets not forget that if Depa were as strong as you describe, then Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Obi Wan, Palpatine are a few Jedi/Sith that would be defeated by Depa *ZOMG* Billaba.
Defeating a non-force user is such a great action. Read Shatterpoint. Mace takes down two gunboats attacking him. Depa jumps into a gunboat, slaughters the entire crew and then proceeds to redirect blasterfire from two different directions into a small hole on a moving target.
You are now ignoring the fact that the "non force user" that Ulic defeated was chosen among thousands of Mandalorians to be their leader. The title of Mandalore is given only to the "strongest," and "smartest" Mandalorians. Both of these factors have an effect on combat.
And Ulic "tied" Sylvar ? I guess this is why Sylvar was constantly pushing him back until he was standing on a nice edge, correct ?
Being seperated from the force, he was able to hold back a Cathar (reknowned for their physical prowess.) What more the Cathar was filled with the darkside. It was never Ulic's intention to kill Sylvar, but rather to redeem her. That is why he stood at the edge of the cliff without fighting back.
Read Shatterpoint and see for yourself.
- Yoda and Mace both believe that Depa is the best duellist in the order close to them
Among an order that included a weaker Anakin, Kenobi, Cin Drallig? ZOMG she must have been powerful indeed!
Mace says her bladework alone surpassed his Vaapad
Which means what exactly? She would be able to surpass Yoda and Mace in a straight out lightsaber duel? Opinion by Mace I would say. Otherwise argue that she would also be able to trump Vader, Sidious, Dooku, and multiple other Sith.
she jumps into a gunboat and slaughters the entire crew on her own (20 or 30 people)
Unimpressed. We have seen Darth Maul replicate the same feat against the Black Sun. Did that mean anything when he was killed?
- she picks up another lightsaber an deflects blasterfire from two direction while on a flying vessel (Sidenote: Luminara thought herself to be unable to deflect blasterfire from multiple direction despite the fact that she was a Soresu master - and the only persons seen to do something like that are Mace in AotC and Yoda in ROTS)
- then she redirects the blaster bolts into a small hole on a moving target
If you watch Star Wars, deflecting blaster fire is not that big of deal. Defeating a hardened warlord of a warlike people (while being handicapped) is a much more impressive feat.
Aside of this: Please stop handing me the "master swordsmen" as an argument that Kun and Ulic are unbeatable. Every dumbass that is able to handle a lightsaber is a master swordsman in Star Wars. This includes people like Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar - didn't help them against Sidious. And do you want to tell me that Nomi Sunrider was able to beat every other Jedi because she "handled the lightsaber like a master" when she picked up such a weapon for the first time ?
So you neglect the fact that stalemating Exar Kun is not noteworthy, but deflecting blaster fire is? Well then...
Let's just ignore the fact that we only saw three people handling a lightsaber before the comics were written: Luke, Vader and Obi-Wan. Let's ignore that the only "description" of a lightsaber fight Veitch and Anderson had was that what they had seen in the movies. Let's ignore how no other "forms" (and therefore ways to handle the lightsaber) did exist as the "seven forms" were invented after TPM was released. Let's ignore that form V is the only form that features wide, powerful, two-handed swings (exactly the way Kun and Ulic use to handle their weapons) and the only form that was ever shown to be used before the comics were written.
*glances at watch*
Your point is?
So let's get that straight: Because the only form the writers of the comics had ever seen in action was form V, because no lightsaber forms did exist in the EU at that point and because we see them moving exactly like form V users - they are not using form V. Of course...when I see somebody standing in front of a wall, see some jet of liquid coming out of his pants, see the wall getting wet and see a small puddle come into being close to the wall - I will not assume that he's urinating but instead think that he's cleaning the wall with his invisible garden hose that doesn't need a water source...
I really don't see where you are going with this. You are arguing that the form used by Ulic and Exar was form V. You have not offered any proof, therefore, why should I believe you? For all you know the author's could have been creative and decided to make Ulic and Exar fight differently from Luke and Vader.
Aristotle believed that all the planets and the sun revolved around Earth, no proof, just speculation. Seemed to make sense at the time.
As for the example, LOL
Is this what you were mentioning Zephiel?
Originally posted by danwall88
Hi guys,First, thanks to Lightsnake for the invite. I wanted to clear up the "Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord in history" line I put into the NEC. Here's the facts on the issue:
1) Yes, I wrote that line, and in my opinion Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived. In my opinion he could beat Marka Ragnos in a fight.
2) It doesn't really matter what my opinion is. Lucasfilm approves all canon, not me, and there's plenty of wiggle-room in my statement where you can go one way or another. For example, if Lucasfilm later publishes a story in which Marka Ragnos's ghost kicks the ass of Palpatine ghost, I'd happily accept one of the following explanations:
a) As it turns out, Palpatine was only the "most powerful" when it came to political maneuvering, not ghost-ass-kicking
b) As it turns out, the in-universe author of the NEC (Voren Na'al, if you're a geek like me) was injecting a bit of bias into his text when he came up with that whole "most powerful" line
c) The "Any Given Sunday" rule.
I don't think Lucasfilm is ever going to publish "power charts" or something like that indicating who could beat who, because such things are dependent on the rules of story. It's like arguing who would win -- Batman or Superman? I could happily argue that point all day long (the answer is Superman, by the way), but it's just imaginary arguing. There's no right answer, because the winner in any matchup between the two characters will always be determined by the writer of that story.
Dan
Originally posted by zephiel7
How much more lightsaber fighting has Sidious seen? Also how much more stronger opponents did he have to fight against? Luke has eight years of experience (maybe) under his belt, but Sidious has had far more. You were arguing that years of experience automatically equals skill, which has been shown to be untrue.
Oh my...don't dictate premises I've never stated.
I said that if two people have the same "talent" (in this case: being lightsaber prodigy) and then one of them receives more training and experience to develop that certain talent then the other - the one who has more training / experience will most likely be better than the other at the end. Want to argue that ?
Luke did beat Sidious because he had far more force potential (stated by Lucas himself: Luke = Anakin, Anakin > Sidious) and was probably more gifted in terms of lightsaber talent (proof: Was able to keep up with Vader having less than six months of lightsaber wielding experience). If the more experienced force user is beaten by the less experience this can be always explained by the younger beeing more talented or having more potential. And this is not the case if you want to compare Mace to Kun. Got it now ?
And even the lowest light can see that they both require more co-ordination than handling one lightsaber. Developing a double bladed lightsaber style is not something that can be done in a day. Obviously Kun was familiarizing with multiweapon fighting before evolving his form into his unique double bladed lightsaber style. You were thinking that his double bladed lightsaber was a half hazard device that he just popped out of his ass while he was duelling Vodo, which I have shown was not.
Wow. Anakin in AotC was familiar with handling multiple weapons. Does that mean he's able to beat Mace now given how Dooku simply tooled him ? Can Maul do that given that he was able to handle a double-bladed lightsaber ?
Is there still a difference between using two weapons or one larger weapon ? Yes ? Damn it.
Kun was logically unable to figure out how to handle a double-bladed lightsaber before inventing it and after he did invent it he had less than six months of time to develop a fitting style for it.
This was in the "Marka Ragnos is the most powerful sith lord" thread. Snake called KJA who confirmed that "ROTS Sidious" being the most powerful Sith Lord was untrue. He said that it was a bias by whoever wrote that portion of the NEC.
Lmao. Nice lack of reading comprehension that you have. Wallace is the writer of the NEC and that statement he did refer too was also coming from the NEC. The ROTS novel was written by Stover and, sorry to say, it's G-Canon where it doesn't contradict the movies or Lucas own words.
And we're talking about Yoda here. And given your complete lack of evidence that a Jedi did ever surpass Yoda in terms of combat abilities or force powers, I'm inclined to say that he was in fact the most powerful Jedi up to that point (ROTS).
Then I suppose Yoda absorbing and reflecting Sith Lightning is not "all that" either? You seem to be putting down energy absorption. Vodo was able to maintain such a device with his concentration and ALSO duel efficiently at the same time.
Yes. He duelled so efficiently that he loses 2 out of 3 duels with Kun. And what ? Yoda was able to lift up Mace Windu, deflect a blaster bolt with his lightsaber and slam some Ynchorri into the next wall all in the same moment. In Shatterpoint Mace states that Yoda would be able to stop and avalanche and lift some enormous vehicle up at the same time. Compared to this managing to make a staff lightsaber resistent is really impressive. Especially as we have seen Nomi Sunrider blocking a blaster bolt with her bare hand while fighting (which is pretty much the same) and even the crippled Vader (remember 80 % of Sidious) could block energy with his "bare" hands (ESB).
Among whom? Define the context. What other Jedi, where there. Kit Fisto? *yawn*. Weaker version of Ani and Ben? *yawn*The Jedi that were gunned down by clone troopers? *Yawn*
Lets not forget that if Depa were as strong as you describe, then Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, Obi Wan, Palpatine are a few Jedi/Sith that would be defeated by Depa *ZOMG* Billaba.
Why as strong as I descripe ? Again: Blame Matthew Stover for letting the characters give such comments and then blame LFL for not censoring them. If Depa's bladework surpasses that of Mace I'm pretty sure she can take down Sidious (Mace did), Anakin, Obi-Wan and Dooku in sheer lightsaber fights. If force powers are involved that situation would change of course.
You are now ignoring the fact that the "non force user" that Ulic defeated was chosen among thousands of Mandalorians to be their leader. The title of Mandalore is given only to the "strongest," and "smartest" Mandalorians. Both of these factors have an effect on combat.
You are ignoring the fact that none of this matters when a force user goes and fights a non-force user.
- almost no weaponary is able to withstand a lightsaber
- blasterfire is almost useless against powerful force users / lightsaber duellists
- Jedi can predict what their opponents will do
- Jedi can generate inhuman strength / speed using the force
Or simply have a look at the TPM commentary and listen to Lucas words which will tell you that he wanted the Jedi to be "invincible" unless being completely outnumbered (see Geonosis) or confronted with far superior firepower (see Geonosis again).
Being seperated from the force, he was able to hold back a Cathar (reknowned for their physical prowess.) What more the Cathar was filled with the darkside. It was never Ulic's intention to kill Sylvar, but rather to redeem her. That is why he stood at the edge of the cliff without fighting back.
Yes. Let's again pull out assumptions out of the sky. If he really was equal to Sylvar he could have disarmed her or at least keep fighting at the same place instead of being constantly forced backwards. And given that we have virtually nothing to say about Sylvar's duelling skills (aside from the fact that she had her ass handed to an unarmed Massassi - really impressive) you can just say that "Ulic was able to prevent his death from the blade of a Jedi with unknown lightsaber skills". Nice argument that is.
Among an order that included a weaker Anakin, Kenobi, Cin Drallig? ZOMG she must have been powerful indeed!
I love how you simply ignore Mace's comment on Depa's skills and the evidence we have. Oh...Ulic and Kun must be powerful because they were in an order which such epitomes of force power and duelling skill like Odan "killed by a single force attack" Urr and Ood "Fighting is not my skill, Exar Kun" Bnar and Nomi "I don't like lightsabers" Sunrider as well as Vodo-Siosk "My padawan pwned me" Baas and Andur "pwned by some bandits" Sunrider.
And wow...Ulic was so skilled in terms of lightsaber combat that he had his ass handed to a single droid at the end of his training. IMPRESSIVE ! He must be the epitome of lightsaber skills when he's not able to perform some blaster deflection - something Luke managed to do after...uh...1 minute of instruction by Obi-Wan in ANH?
Which means what exactly? She would be able to surpass Yoda and Mace in a straight out lightsaber duel? Opinion by Mace I would say. Otherwise argue that she would also be able to trump Vader, Sidious, Dooku, and multiple other Sith.
Wow. Opinion by Mace who just freaking trained her, that Yoda agreed with. And no...she would not be able to defeat Yoda as long as Yoda is allowed to use his force abilities for movement given that she's unable to place a hit on him in Shadowhunter. For the rest watch what I said about "force powers" above.
If you watch Star Wars, deflecting blaster fire is not that big of deal. Defeating a hardened warlord of a warlike people (while being handicapped) is a much more impressive feat.
If you would read properly and spot the "different directions" and the "redirecting" you would actualy see that exactly nobody aside of Mace and Yoda was able to do that.
And according to your own logic Mace must be god since he managed to defeat Depa and Kar Vastor while suffering from some series injuries (broken bones...a lightsaber put through his body)...So what ?
So you neglect the fact that stalemating Exar Kun is not noteworthy, but deflecting blaster fire is? Well then...
Stalemating Kun is noteworthy...so is surpassing Mace Windu when it comes to bladework.
I really don't see where you are going with this.
The proof is that through the entire fights Kun and Ulic are handling their weapons in form V manner. Two handed - powerful, wide swings. Just have a look at Kun vs Ulic and Ulic vs Cay and you will see it yourself. If they are shown to fight like form V users (and they are) then I have to say that they're using form V. Especially since that was the only known way for lightsaber fighting that the authors did see before.
Of course you can deny that.
Then I will simply kick in this nice article about the lightsaber forms written by their inventor:
http://swg.stratics.com/content/gameplay/professions/jedi/lightsaber_combat.php
And suddenly Kun is turned into a Makashi user meaning he didn't use his own style. Even if I personally believe that this is wrong there you have the proof that he didn't use his own style (ups...). And now we can argue if Kun was able to master Makashi to the same extend Dooku did (which just took Dooku about 6 decades) - most likely not - and again come to the conclusion that Mace and Depa would win.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
She attacked him. That's a fight.
Okay, then Anakin beat Mace. Vader beat Sidious. Omg! I guess Vader > Sidious. Please. You were trying to downplay Ulic by saying he got taken out "in seconds in a fight" - as if it were actually a real fight, and then say "how would he fare against Jedi of a stronger era". Lightsnake, that's blatently trying to downplay Ulic, and it isn't true. How is doing the technique without warning, without giving heed a "fight"?
This is a fight:
This is not a fight:
"Please Nomi don't. I'm so weak". Clearly he's not talking about physically weak, nor terms of power weak. He's mentally weak. The man just killed his own brother, he's cradling him for God's sake. While Nomi is even talking about stripping him, he's still apologizing to his brother. He's not trying to fight. He doesn't want a fight. And you cannot use that as basis for saying Ulic cannot beat PT Jedi.
This is the dictionary definition of "fight":
A confrontation between opposing groups in which each attempts to harm or gain power over the other, as with bodily force or weapons.
That was not a fight, Lightsnake. And you cannot base anything off of it. Unless I can use the good ol' "Sidious got benchpressed down a reactor core by a one armed cyborg - imagine how he'd do against a stronger opponent!" routine.
And 'required' seven Jedi? Prove it?
What do you mean "prove it"? Perhaps because there'd been no reason to even add the power of five other Jedi if Nomi and Vodo could've done it on their own?
"The other Jedi added their power to cement a temporary wall of light". In other words, it required the other Jedi to do that so they could imprison Ulic. Either way, this is just ridiculous to even argue. What does this specific point have to do with anything? I know what the above point has to do with things (mainly you trying to downplay Ulic), but this?
One thing to add. Nai mentioned that Kun used Makashi, ok. Possibly. But wouldn't the fact that Kun created a very unique double bladed saber, mean that he used a unique style? I mean I would like to see anybody else that had a double lightsaber use Makashi. I highly doubt it is possible considering Kun's blade in length is smaller than his body, whereas the regular double bladed lightsabers are a lot bigger than the average height of a jedi, meaning they couldn't have used Makashi. So in conclusion, if he did use Makashi I don't see how you can still call it Makashi or rather not a unique style, because he was doing it with a double blade.
