Kyle Katarn vs. ROTS Palpatine

Started by Advent6 pages
Originally posted by Nikkolas
'cause Dooku was effin' old.

Completely irrelevant. Yoda is 900 years old. It doesn't matter as the Force compensates for that. By your logic, Obi-Wan should beat Dooku because he's younger. Now, that obviously didn't happen. So, you're great "retort" fails.

Look at the timegap between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith.

What's your point? Three years...and?

In addition, he was supposed to lose. That was the plan. He wasn't giving it his all. He was betrayed by Palpatine and I think if he was going all out, it would have lasted A LOT longer.

Incorrect:

Originally posted by Advent
So much bullshit fanboyism, I don't even want to begin.

He was defeated in [b]one on one combat, you dolt. And don't play that "f4tigu3" bullshit:

"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. "

Seems Dooku was completely revitalized before he faced Anakin one on one.

HOLD ON HERE.

Oh please. Yoda's 900 years old, he fought a man not even close to his age. Anyways, he was bested in one on one combat, when he was revitalized so this point is defeated. Adding to the fact if you just look above, you virtually pwned yourself.

Wrong again. He never thought Sidious would actually help him win the fight or anything. He thought that if he were to be bested, then Sidious would help. Now, it doesn't say that Dooku won't fight to the best of his ability, and it doesn't say he'll go easy. On the contrary actually, if you look below. Sidious only said that he'd manipulate it, so Dooku doesn't die, but Dooku had to fight as best as he could anyways.

He was there to give it his all against Anakin, LOE makes that clear.

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." "I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised."

--Labryinth of Evil, Last Chapter.

Clearly Dooku was told to give it his all, and he himself promised he would "treat it as his crowning acheivement" in other words - "fight like he was dying".

And once Dooku realized that Anakin was about to kill him, and that Dooku couldn't contain him - he literally "fought for his life":

From my copy of the NEC, scanned just for you. The ROTS novelization also backs up the fact that Anakin was stronger than Dooku:

"Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck
before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke."

This is stated directly after it says that Anakin realizes he can use his "fear as a weapon", and it says this because "It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final. Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail." Meaning that once Anakin realizes this, everything else is trivial because Dooku cannot win now. And note that this is said far before Dooku is actually dead.

"And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. "

The one holding himself back is Anakin, btw, just so you don't try to pull some bullshit.

"in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
Decide.
So he does.
He decides to win."

Anakin just decides to win, and he does. Oh, and Sidious himself admits that Anakin is stronger than Dooku, from the ROTS script/movie:

"DARTH SIDIOUS: His death was a necessary loss, which will ensure our victory. Soon I will have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus."

Sorry, but that is bullshit. Anakin wasn't there to kill Dooku. He was there to capture him, that was made clear to the Jedi. Adding to the fact that if Anakin wanted Dooku dead, apparently all he has to is "decide":

"He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here"

He decided to take Dooku's hand, not his life. And the ROTS novel elaborates that he wouldn't have killed Dooku had Palpatine not gave him "permission" (that's exactly how it's described) to do such.

We're not talking about Force powers, we're talking about saber abilities. Nice way to misdirect attention from the fact Anakin beat Dooku in saber combat, which is what we're debating about.

Don't even act like you accomplished anything, Rampant. You just proved (well I just proved) you're a hypocrite. And your "evidence", which in reality was bullshit, was trumped by my evidence - which included actual quotes, logic, and even a scan from the NEC.

When Dooku beat Mace, he was better than him. We would say that. If we pit ROTS Dooku against ROTS Mace - it's completely different time, therefore because their duel happened in the past, we cannot use that as evidence. However, comparing ROTS Anakin to ROTS Dooku would stand because Anakin beat Dooku in ROTS.

Anakin was under immense amounts of grief, and not thinking clearly. Plus the fact that Obi-Wan had to gain an advantage of terrain, and run around like a dog, whereas Anakin beat Dooku in a flat-out duel. No terrain advantages, both warriors thinking clearly, etc. It was plainly a fight. Just like a versus fight we'd have here.

Try again, Rampant. You fail as usual.

[Bail Organa] "And so it is..." [/Bail Organa] [/B]

Dooku was told to give it his all, and promised he would. In the NEC, it says he fought for his life. And the ROTS novelization makes it clear.

Btw, he wasn't suppose to lose. There's proof in that quote above, but here's more:

"If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

If Dooku was "supposed to lose", why does Lucas, God of Star Wars, think that Dooku is simply told to fight, and if he wins - he wins? Seems you have been mistaken, and don't have a damn clue. And, here's the exact plan from Labryinth of Evil:

"You will duel them," Sidious had said. "Kill Kenobi. His only purpose is to die and, in so doing, ignite young Skywalker to tap the depths of his fear and rage. Should you defeat Skywalker easily, then we will know that he is not prepared to serve us. Perhaps he never will be prepared. Should he by some fluke best you, however, I will control the outcome to spare you any unnecessary embarrassment, and we will have gained a powerful ally. But above all you must make the contest appear real, Lord Tyranus." "I will treat it as if it were my crowning achievement," Dooku had promised."

QED. Now, before you go with a stupid little spiel, think. You are wrong, canon is right. You do not have a clue what you're talking about, canon does. I have canon material (novelization, Lucas, and other various novels), you have...an unfounded statement trumped by my material.

I'm not surprised you didn't grasp it.

I'm not surprised you don't have a clue what you're talking about. As seen above by you making shit up plainly, and below - as I'm about to destroy your points.

Facts: Palpatine engaged Mace in a lightsaber duel.
End result: Palpatine alive. Mace dead.

That's only one "fact", why did you make it plural? Good going.

FACT: In the lightsaber duel, Mace put Sidious on his ass. thus winning the lightsaber fight. Sidious is alive because:

1.) He used Force powers.
2.) Anakin.

What does Sidious being alive have to do with the fact he lost the saber duel? He lost the saber duel. It's really that simple. This battle is lightsabers only, ergo I'm discussing lightsabers only. You are talking about the Force. He lost the saber duel, he won via means of the Force and Anakin. How does using Force powers, and having Anakin matter at all to this fight?

And just to make sure you read fact shis time, he killed 3 Jedi Master s in seconds. Soon as Kyle does that, I'll hold him on the same level in lightsaber ability.

By your logic, Yoda is not on par with Palpatine. Anakin is not on par with Palpatine. And Mace is not on Palpatine's level, despite beating him in lightsaber combat. Since where is the requirement to be on Sidious' level beating three Jedi masters? I could just as easily say when a hypothetical Sidious has no real training, and beats seven Dark Jedi - call me. This is the logic of a fanboy, and is demonstrating absurdity by being absurd.

You fail to realize that this is lightsaber combat only. Sidious beat Mace with the Force and help from Anakin, Mace beat Sidious with a lightsaber in a straight up duel. The novelization described the fight as:

"The fight would've went on forever. If Vaapad was Mace Windu's only gift".

This indicates that they were stalemating in lightsaber combat, nothing about Palpatine "manipulating" a damn thing in the whole novel.

And to your "Palp staged the whole thing", explain how he can sense Anakin across the way, and know he is coming, but can't sense what Anakin will do right next to him in ROTJ, when Luke was even screaming "I can feel the conflict within you".

And again, prove that Saesee, Agen, and Kit are even shit on the grand scale.

Katarn has proven himself to be a lightsaber prodigy, and there's nothing more to it. He defeated seven Dark Jedi with no real Jedi training, just see above. They are all described as powerful. And Jerec, the most powerful out of all of them, would hand Saesee, Agen, and Kit their asses.

Hey Sama, is this "making of ROTS" on the ROTS DVD in the commentary? I'm interested in looking it up

Also:

"...I had to give them levels," he (Nick Gillard) said, "Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he's moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They're up there with Sidious."

-- Page 133, The Making of ROTS.

Now, I'm not going to say that Nick Gillard is right in anyway, but I'm just stating that apparently they are designed with the intention of being closely on par. Again, I'm not saying Nick Gillard's right or anything - just saying.

And Darth Sexy, The Making of ROTS is a book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/0345431391

^
Amazon, $15.

Originally posted by Advent
Nick Gillard is right
Originally posted by Advent
I'm not saying Nick Gillard's right or anything

Contradiction much?

Originally posted by Adas
Contradiction much?
Originally posted by Advent
Now, I'm not going to say that Nick Gillard is right in anyway, but I'm just stating that apparently they are designed with the intention of being closely on par. Again, I'm not saying Nick Gillard's right or anything - just saying.

Wow, Adas, dumb f*cking shit, much?

You just deleted some of the post. Great job. What will you come up with next?

I was just showing you my mad skillz with twisting people's words, and selective quoting. 😱

Great job, kid. Keep it up.

Nebaris, you're an imbecile.

Well by Gillard's standard, here's how I rank the Jedi:

Luke- 20 (yep, he's God)
Kyle- at least 12-14
Sidious- 9

Kyle wins, regardless of how good Sidious is.

Kyle.

Originally posted by Spartan ll
Kyle.

teh wisdom of MM!!! 😱

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nebaris, you're an imbecile.

Is that right tdtd?

kyle knew alot of force powers force lightning choke heal throw pull push and alot more and this is njo kyle

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Interesting. I just read the complete history of Kyle on Wikipedia, and it states that nobody, not even Luke, could match Kyle in saber combat.
i just looked to best jedi swordsman in the order he surpasses skywalker which we know could of killed palp kyle also trained one of the most famous jedi ever jaden korr

Kyle would win. Palpatine, by Revenge of the Sith, was thirteen years out of practice - and relied heavily on his Force powers in a lot of cases. This wouldn't be an easy fight, as Kyle isn't certainly that far above Mace Windu or Yoda (if he is at all). But, for some reason (the ones that Advent has supplied) I am inclined to say that he would win.

Having said that -

Advent, there is some proof to support the theory that Palpatine at least intended for Anakin to show up - whether or not he lost the fight intentionally remains to be seen.

Consider that Yoda, Palpatine's equal in the Force, was able to sense the deaths of the Jedi Masters when he was on Kashyyk, fighting against the Confederacy. In Attack of the Clones, Yoda also sensed when Anakin cut down the Tusken Raiders in retaliation for killing his mother.

Who's to say that Palpatine, who is firmly in touch with Anakin's emotions, wouldn't be able to feel the same thing - when they are on the same planet? Furthermore, this is supported when Palpatine contacts Anakin - via some sort of Force telepathy and says:

"You know, don't you, that if I die - any chance of saving her is lost."

Add in the factor that Palpatine is the supreme manipulator, it is easily possible.

And, as for the events in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine's ability to sense currents in the Force was beginning to diminish. Vader was still quite a bit weaker than him in the Force, but was able to sense Luke's presence on Endor where Palpatine couldn't.

Ironically, Palpatine was facing a smaller version of what Yoda and Mace were in the PT. However, he could still use the Force to predict things that Vader and Yoda couldn't, as he knew that Luke would turn himself over to Vader - and that Vader would bring Luke before him.

And, with Jerec, Jerec obviously can't use his ability to remove the Force from people against anybody. He was unable to use it against Kyle. Also, Palpatine cut Jerec off from Dark Side teachings - and given Jerec's ambition and cruelty - if he could use that power on someone who is more powerful than him, like Palpatine, he would have done so.

Which leads me to believe that he can only use it on people on par or weaker than himself.

Anyways, Kyle wins. But it's not an easy fight.

how skilled is kyle katurn with a lightsaber i know he is ranked has a battlemaster

So, Kyle beats Sidious? This that means that kyle is on par or even stronger then yoda, for example, in the lightsaber department? I really don't think so.

I think sidious wins, even though I believe kyle would give him a very good fight. By the way, jerec was trained by sidious, yet he was not even his number 2, was it? That spot belongs to vader, and vader is no match for sidious in the lightsaber area.

Originally posted by Blax XXX
Is that right [b]tdtd? [/B]
Who the hell is tdtd?

Can Kyle defeat Darth Caedus? NO. Sidious was more powerful than Caedus even in ROTS, because Sidious was considered the most powerful sith even by ROTS.