God Loves You So Much....

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Laying aside the Karma stuff, I agree with virtually all of the first paragraph. I don't know why the law on unintentional cause and effect disallows a personal God or removes the human obligation to make moral choices in an imperfect world.

It doesn't... I was just trying to get you to not think of things so black or white.

We need to make moral choices because moral choices are often times Karmic Choice.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It doesn\'t... I was just trying to get you to not think of things so black or white.

We need to make moral choices because moral choices are often times Karmic Choice.

Black and whites do not exist in my reality, but they could exits in yours. Why would your truth override mine if no black and whites exist.
You no make sense.

Originally posted by ChancellorGohan
Black and whites do not exist in my reality, but they could exits in yours. Why would your truth override mine if no black and whites exist.
You no make sense.

Maybe I wasn't talking to you. Maybe you should read back a little.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It doesn't... I was just trying to get you to not think of things so black or white.

We need to make moral choices because moral choices are often times Karmic Choice.

OK. That's fine. I don't know if I completely agree but that's all right. If it makes you feel better, I don't view the human predicament in black and white terms. I know that we all find ourselves in the cross hairs of conflicting moral claims and at frequent cross-purposes with our own best intentions. The choices we make in life are oftentimes difficult to both see and make. But choose we must, or we betray the thing in us that makes us most heroic.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
OK. That's fine. I don't know if I completely agree but that's all right. If it makes you feel better, I don't view the human predicament in black and white terms. I know that we all find ourselves in the cross hairs of conflicting moral claims and at frequent cross-purposes with our own best intentions. The choices we make in life are oftentimes difficult to both see and make. But choose we must, or we betray the thing in us that makes us most heroic.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
No. Principles need beings with principles. The physical universe has no value system in and of itself. Either the bedrock of existence is nothing, in which case, all morality and principle is farce, or the bedrock is a transcendent personal existence to which morality and principles adhere.

Sounds black or white to me.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Wow. You only have one set of bi-colored glasses from which to view the world, don't you? I've never seen someone so fixated on one issue. No one is casting aspersions on your bi-sexuality. You're the one who keeps bringing it up...ad nauseum.

You asked me a question and I answered it.

I don't see your problem, and your refusal to give an actual answer just shows me your inability to actually answer my statements truly.

You basically said that Hell is the separation from God, and I clearly stated that I would rather be seperated from your God, then be with him....I don't like your idea of God, and I already explained why.

If you don't like the answer, that's not my problem.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Because morality is about making choices. Either/or. Sometimes choices are between the lesser of two evils, but this still involves identifying one choice as relatively worse or better than the other. We can be conflicted about the choices we make, but we still make a choice nonetheless. I don't see everything in this world as black and white. I just see the necessity of making moral distinctions, however imperfect they may be, and choosing.

In regard to my response to mahasattva, I think the either/or principle is clear. He or she is making an argument that a universe of objective principles can be deduced without positing a personal God. I argue that it cannot. The universe, in and of itself, is impersonal and largely indifferent to human ends. It makes no sense to talk of morality or principles, or any such thing, if these things don't adhere to a transcendent being who gives these expressions meaning.

😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

The funny thing is you act like you KNOW so much about this Universe......

That's the biggest mistake any Christian, or ANY PERSON, makes for that matter...claiming to know the nature of this Universe, when we as a Human Race are so immature and helpless to our grander exterior.

As if the Bible describes anything extensive about this Universe...let alone our OWN EARTH....

The Bible POORLY poooorly represents our OWN WORLD in its factual reality, much less the mythological places such as Heaven and Hell....

So without ANY real knowledge of this Universe, you DARE claim to know anything about it ?

And you say that I'm full of myself 🙄

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You basically said that Hell is the separation from God, and I clearly stated that I would rather be seperated from your God, then be with him....I don't like your idea of God, and I already explained why.

Right. How astute of you to notice that. That was the whole point of my post. You don't like the Christian God. You've established that quite clearly. So my question to you is why do you care if you're separated from him after you die? Isn't that what you want? Assume for a moment that God and Hell are real. Why would God be cruel for essentially giving you what you want?

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Right. How astute of you to notice that. That was the whole point of my post. You don't like the Christian God. You've established that quite clearly. So my question to you is why do you care if you're separated from him after you die? Isn't that what you want? Assume for a moment that God and Hell are real. Why would God be cruel for essentially giving you what you want?

If Hell is a place of Eternal Torment, then he is not giving me what I want...he is giving me what HE thinks I deserve, which in reality, no one deserves.

If Hell is simply separation from him, then that means I can still be AS HAPPY as I am today, and therefore..it's not really Hell.

So if Hell is JUST separation from your God, then I don't mind at all. 🙂

Sounds more like Heaven to me 👆

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

The funny thing is you act like you KNOW so much about this Universe......

That's the biggest mistake any Christian, or ANY PERSON, makes for that matter...claiming to know the nature of this Universe, when we as a Human Race are so immature and helpless to our grander exterior.

As if the Bible describes anything extensive about this Universe...let alone our OWN EARTH....

The Bible POORLY poooorly represents our OWN WORLD in its factual reality, much less the mythological places such as Heaven and Hell....

So without ANY real knowledge of this Universe, you DARE claim to know anything about it ?

And you say that I'm full of myself 🙄

Yes, I do dare to say that you are full of yourself.

Framing arguments in the indicative case is a normal function of the English language and well within the protocols of debate.

I am making an argument for my understanding of the universe and the moral world we human beings inhabit. I presume, by your presence on this board, that you have an understanding as well. Am I not allowed to articulate my argument? Does it rankle you?

I do have real knowledge of the universe, just as any rational human being who has ever lived has real knowledge...through their experience, through their suffering, through their thoughts and, sometimes, through their prayers and willing sacrifices. Faulkner referred to this knowledge as "those eternal verities of heart."

You are so quick to point out the inadequacies of the Bible--I presume from its inability to match current scientific descriptions of the physical universe. However, to say that it poorly represents the human world demonstrates that you have either never read the text or have no appreciation of narrative. If anything, the Bible is eerie in its ability to describe human nature with brief narrative strokes and in its ability to transmit a haunting sense of the divine mystery lurking behind the veil of things. Your insensitivity to this power is presumptuous and, unfortunately, predictable.

Along with the Bible I guess we can also chuck the following ancient and, therefore, useless texts for their inability to stay current with current cosmological models.

1. The Iliad--Gods and heroes! Worthless!
2. Beowulf--A monster! Give me a break!
3. The Divine Comedy--Heaven and Hell! Conservative Propaganda!
4. The Epic of Gilgamesh--Crap!
5. The Aeneid--Imperialist rubbish!
6. The Lives of Plutarch--Yeah, real interesting, but did he understand quantum mechanics?!
7. Paradise Lost--Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven, huh Lord U?
8. Oedipus Rex--Who says you can't kill your father and sleep with your mother?!
9. Hamlet--The ghosts of dead fathers never speak to the living!
10. A Midsummer's Night Dream--Never did man dream of such a folly!

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So if Hell is JUST separation from your God, then I don't mind at all. 🙂

Sounds more like Heaven to me 👆

You have it exactly.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
You have it exactly.

Then there is nothing to fear. I take it you're Mormon...

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
I do have real knowledge of the universe, just as any rational human being who has ever lived has real knowledge...through their experience, through their suffering, through their thoughts and, sometimes, through their prayers and willing sacrifices. Faulkner referred to this knowledge as "those eternal verities of heart."

Since the REST of your argument was pure RANT, let me address the only portion of it that promoted your Point...

You are clearly Deluded if you beleive you have real knowledge of this Universe.

Fact # 1 - Nobody sees this world for what it truly is.

Fact # 2- As a Human Race, collectively, none of us know enough about our own Universe to make any real judgements or conclusions of it.

We don't even know the full truths and realities of our OWN WORLD, much less this Universe.

Now you may figure that my argument is nothing more than a condemnation of your religious perspective, and only my own bias but take these things into account:

1) We only have FIVE senses...our senses are inferior to many of the sense capabilities that animals and insects possess.

2) Every Era, the Human Race has created myths and even came to scientific findings that have only proven false over later time.

3) We only live on EARTH, ONE WORLD in the vast Universe clusted with billions of Galaxies, with billions of thier own solar systems, each flooding with dozens of thier own stars and worlds.

For you to claim you truly KNOW the nature and reality of this Universe, when you don't even know enough about this Earth, is TRULY egotistic, absurd, unrealistic, and deserving of MUCH speculation.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
So if Hell is JUST separation from your God, then I don\'t mind at all. 🙂

Sounds more like Heaven to me 👆

Naw it more than that. You still at the mercy of God\'s love right now. Man, Demon, etc, etc, etc. Everyone at the mercy of God\'s love. When he takes it away from everyone, they be screwed. Or basically, they just screw themselves cause God is all loving, and they prove they a complete stupid ass for rejecting something thats all loving.

Originally posted by ChancellorGohan
Naw it more than that. You still at the mercy of God\'s love right now. Man, Demon, etc, etc, etc. Everyone at the mercy of God\'s love. When he takes it away from everyone, they be screwed. Or basically, they just screw themselves cause God is all loving, and they prove they a complete stupid ass for rejecting something thats all loving.

OH yes...only a "stupid ass" would reject a mythological character. 🙄

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Then there is nothing to fear. I take it you're Mormon...

No. Catholic.

Nothing, ultimately, to fear but yourself, Lord U.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
For you to claim you truly KNOW the nature and reality of this Universe, when you don't even know enough about this Earth, is TRULY egotistic, absurd, unrealistic, and deserving of MUCH speculation.

Really? Then how do you know enough about it to refute me?

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Along with the Bible I guess we can also chuck the following ancient and, therefore, useless texts for their inability to stay current with current cosmological models.

1. The Iliad--Gods and heroes! Worthless!
2. Beowulf--A monster! Give me a break!
3. The Divine Comedy--Heaven and Hell! Conservative Propaganda!
4. The Epic of Gilgamesh--Crap!
5. The Aeneid--Imperialist rubbish!
6. The Lives of Plutarch--Yeah, real interesting, but did he understand quantum mechanics?!
7. Paradise Lost--Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven, huh Lord U?
8. Oedipus Rex--Who says you can't kill your father and sleep with your mother?!
9. Hamlet--The ghosts of dead fathers never speak to the living!
10. A Midsummer's Night Dream--Never did man dream of such a folly!

Well, I like all of them for literature purposes. They are great reads. Likewise they have historical relevance. I'd put the Bible in that category - historical text with potential historical applications. A book can be complete fiction and still have relevance in the humanities. But there is a difference between them being used as Gospel and shoehorned into some governing code for all times, and simply being taken as what they are - historical texts fictional and/or dramatic and/or bibliographical and/or mythological and/or historical in nature.

As a side note I would point out historical text does not, in fact, give it a claim to being true. Historical fictions and mythology can be useful for many historical applications despite not being real - and that is where I would put the Bible. Historical text.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Well, I like all of them for literature purposes. They are great reads. Likewise they have historical relevance. I'd put the Bible in that category - historical text with potential historical applications. A book can be complete fiction and still have relevance in the humanities. But there is a difference between them being used as Gospel and shoehorned into some governing code for all times, and simply being taken as what they are - historical texts fictional and/or dramatic and/or bibliographical and/or mythological and/or historical in nature.

As a side note I would point out historical text does not, in fact, give it a claim to being true. Historical fictions and mythology can be useful for many historical applications despite not being real - and that is where I would put the Bible. Historical text.

Yes. I am aware of this. However, Lord U's argument was that the Bible was meaningless because it couldn't describe the universe with the same observational precision as modern science. My list was meant as a reductio ad absurdum

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Yes. I am aware of this. However, Lord U's argument was that the Bible was meaningless because it couldn't describe the universe with the same observational precision as modern science. My list was meant as a reductio ad absurdum

*Taps side of nose* I'm with you now.