God Loves You So Much....

Hey Urizen, I have some friendly advice...

People usually don't mind debates, but your arrogant puffed up attitude of "I'm right your wrong" tends to rankle people. It's nothing that serious, but people can get rather annoying.

As Regret pointed out... "stop being a jackass".

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Really? Then how do you know enough about it to refute me?

Neither of us know enough about our own Universe to make any claims as to its "nature".

Unless you journeyed to the farthest reaches on this Universe, experienced duration on other worlds, and can come to an extensively educated conclusion as to its nature, don't pretend to know crap.

Originally posted by Deus Venèficus
Hey Urizen, I have some friendly advice...

People usually don't mind debates, but your arrogant puffed up attitude of "I'm right your wrong" tends to rankle people. It's nothing that serious, but people can get rather annoying.

As Regret pointed out... "stop being a jackass".

But I AM a Jackass.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But I [b]AM a Jackass. [/B]

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Neither of us know enough about our own Universe to make any claims as to its "nature".

Unless you journeyed to the farthest reaches on this Universe, experienced duration on other worlds, and can come to an extensively educated conclusion as to its nature, don't pretend to know crap.

Well, again I ask you, if we can know nothing about our world or the universe, if we can deduce nothing from experience, if all is an illusion, a blind headlong rush after nothingness and the abyss thereafter, what are we wasting our time arguing over? The fact that you have as strong an opinion as you do about fairness, justice, compassion, the prospective unity of the human species, and so on... means you have deduced something about the nature of things. If you haven't, then what are you raving about? If the universe has no meaning, or if we aren't privy to its meaning in some way, why argue and wrestle over this irrelevant little thing we call "truth"? It's all atoms bumping into each other and quantum fluctuations, right? There is no such thing as justice in a world such as this.

If you believe your humanity means anything, Lord U, then you believe your existence tells you something important about the universe. If your humanity is nothing more than a cosmic aberration, then nothing matters anyway.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]He provides you a place of Eternal Torment of you disobey him 🙄
[/B]

I've never understood the due process of the "Lord." An eternity in Hell, for commiting pride?!? Man, I would kill my attorney.

Originally posted by Jim Reaper
I've never understood the due process of the "Lord." An eternity in Hell, for commiting pride?!? Man, I would kill my attorney.

Sorry dude, Biblically speaking your attorney already died to pay your fines. Sure he came back, but its all on you now.

Originally posted by docb77
Sorry dude, Biblically speaking your attorney already died to pay your fines. Sure he came back, but its all on you now.

Court expenses are a killer.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Well, again I ask you, if we can know nothing about our world or the universe, if we can deduce nothing from experience, if all is an illusion, a blind headlong rush after nothingness and the abyss thereafter, what are we wasting our time arguing over?

You can conclude a fair amount of truth from your knowledge of this world....and an aspect of truth of this Universe. But your knowledge, as well as my own is EXTREMELY limitted.

For you to make a claim that you understand the nature of the Universe is absurd....you don't know the nature of this Universe. No one does. Have you ever explored the outer Universe away from Earth ?

Speaking of Earth, have you ever explored all the other parts of the world other than your living room ?

If you have full knowledge of this Earth and Universe...if you already discovered all aspects of this entire Universe, and if you have omniscience of this world, then I apologize.

Otherwise, don't make such bullshit claims.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
The fact that you have as strong an opinion as you do about fairness, justice, compassion, the prospective unity of the human species, and so on... means you have deduced something about the nature of things. If you haven't, then what are you raving about?

Yes, I am talking about Human Nature, and I always admit that's it's my own bias. I never claim my perspective as FACT, to the extant you do.

I am not discussing the Nature of the Universe, nor the nature of planet Earth.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
If the universe has no meaning, or if we aren't privy to its meaning in some way, why argue and wrestle over this irrelevant little thing we call "truth"?

That question makes no sense. When did I say this universe has no meaning ? So if this Universe has no meaning that is consistant with your religion, than it has NO meaning at all?

God, you live in such a world of black and white.

It's like when a Conservative Christian says Freedom is only Freedom when your free to worship God.... 🙄

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
It's all atoms bumping into each other and quantum fluctuations, right? There is no such thing as justice in a world such as this.

Justice is a human construct. There is no justice in the animal world, there is no justice in the microscopic world, and there is limitted justice in the human world. 😉

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
If you believe your humanity means anything, Lord U, then you believe your existence tells you something important about the universe. If your humanity is nothing more than a cosmic aberration, then nothing matters anyway.

I very much beleive Humanity means something. But Human Beings come from Earth. So far I have yet to see evidense that there are human beings in other reaches of this Universe.

Humanity is only an ASPECT of Earth life, and 1 trillionth the aspect of this Universe. I think you fail to realize how VAST this Universe is, as you seem to beleive in a Geo-centric model of reality.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I very much beleive Humanity means something. But Human Beings come from Earth. So far I have yet to see evidense that there are human beings in other reaches of this Universe.

Humanity is only an ASPECT of Earth life, and 1 trillionth the aspect of this Universe. I think you fail to realize how VAST this Universe is, as you seem to beleive in a Geo-centric model of reality.

Again, you've just reiterated my points, which are:

1. Humanity appears to be an anomaly in the known universe.

2. Things like justice and love are irrelevant to the universe at large, outside of a human context.

The point is that our humanity is either the meaning of everything and the key by which we can reach at least a partial understanding of God, its author, or it is nothing, a cosmic joke, a transient aberration that was never meant to happen and will someday fade back into the ice-cold void from which it came.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
...1. Humanity appears to be an anomaly in the known universe...

We have to know a lot more about the universe before we can make that assumption.

'He provides you a place of Eternal Torment of you disobey him '

Wasn't that a joke? I mean an actual joke, I forget the comedian.

I don't believe in hell (personal choice).

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
We have to know a lot more about the universe before we can make that assumption.

It's not an assumption. So far, we are the anomaly. Even if this turns out not to be the case forever, anything resembling intelligent human life will still be a relative rarity in the otherwise indifferent universe. And the question to ponder will still be whether or not the fundamental principle of the universe is life or that which is not life. In other words, are self-aware beings the point of everything, or are they not? Are we the offspring of a creator being or cosmic accidents?

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Again, you've just reiterated my points, which are:

1. Humanity appears to be an anomaly in the known universe.

2. Things like justice and love are irrelevant to the universe at large, outside of a human context.

The point is that our humanity is either the meaning of everything and the key by which we can reach at least a partial understanding of God, its author, or it is nothing, a cosmic joke, a transient aberration that was never meant to happen and will someday fade back into the ice-cold void from which it came.

Humanity is an aspect which takes up less than .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % of this Universe's make up.

Why do you imagine that this Universe revolves around US ?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Humanity is an aspect which takes up less than .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 % of this Universe's make up.

Why do you imagine that this Universe revolves around US ?

**Sigh**Urizen, you're obviously not grasping the question I'm posing.

So, we're an infinitesimal part of the universe. Right. I understand this fact. Are you throwing this number out to pull the rug out from underneath your own humanity? If the number was 10,000 x's smaller than this, it would still not remove the burden from you to decide whether your life was meaningful or not. In the overarching vastness of the universe are we an accident or not?

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
**Sigh**Urizen, you're obviously not grasping the question I'm posing.

So, we're an infinitesimal part of the universe. Right. I understand this fact. Are you throwing this number out to pull the rug out from underneath your own humanity? If the number was 10,000 x's smaller than this, it would still not remove the burden from you to decide whether your life was meaningful or not. In the overarching vastness of the universe are we an accident or not?

Whether or not we are an accident is yet to be proven, nor do I imagine it will ever be proven.

But who cares? Why is it relevant ?

We are still worth a lot. We are still of value. WE don't need a reason, the simple fact that we EXIST means we have right to enjoy.

Technically, I was an accident. My mom had me very early, i was unexpected. She still loves me the same.

We don't need a God to be important. We don't need to be the "center of the universe" to be of value. We are of Absolute Value REGARDLESS of what part of the cosmos we derive, or no matter how we were made.

It's like saying that a Clone is of lesser value than a natural born person. AS long as you are ALIVE, you are worth very much. That's my take on it.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
It's not an assumption. So far, we are the anomaly. Even if this turns out not to be the case forever, anything resembling intelligent human life will still be a relative rarity in the otherwise indifferent universe. And the question to ponder will still be whether or not the fundamental principle of the universe is life or that which is not life. In other words, are self-aware beings the point of everything, or are they not? Are we the offspring of a creator being or cosmic accidents?

All I am saying is we don't know. The Drake equation sets it up quite nicely.

N = N* fp ne fl fi fc fL

N* represents the number of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy

Question: How many stars are in the Milky Way Galaxy?
Answer: Current estimates are 100 billion.

fp is the fraction of stars that have planets around them

Question: What percentage of stars have planetary systems?
Answer: Current estimates range from 20% to 50%.

ne is the number of planets per star that are capable of sustaining life

Question: For each star that does have a planetary system, how many planets are capable of sustaining life?
Answer: Current estimates range from 1 to 5.

fl is the fraction of planets in ne where life evolves

Question: On what percentage of the planets that are capable of sustaining life does life actually evolve?
Answer: Current estimates range from 100% (where life can evolve it will) down to close to 0%.

fi is the fraction of fl where intelligent life evolves

Question: On the planets where life does evolve, what percentage evolves intelligent life?
Answer: Estimates range from 100% (intelligence is such a survival advantage that it will certainly evolve) down to near 0%.

fc is the fraction of fi that communicate

Question: What percentage of intelligent races have the means and the desire to communicate?
Answer: 10% to 20%

fL is fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations live

Question: For each civilization that does communicate, for what fraction of the planet's life does the civilization survive?
Answer: This is the toughest of the questions. If we take Earth as an example, the expected lifetime of our Sun and the Earth is roughly 10 billion years. So far we've been communicating with radio waves for less than 100 years. How long will our civilization survive? Will we destroy ourselves in a few years like some predict or will we overcome our problems and survive for millennia? If we were destroyed tomorrow the answer to this question would be 1/100,000,000th. If we survive for 10,000 years the answer will be 1/1,000,000th.
When all of these variables are multiplied together when come up with:

N, the number of communicating civilizations in the galaxy.

I hate that Drake equation...its like a two year old doing calculus.

I dont consider it accurate.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Whether or not we are an accident is yet to be proven, nor do I imagine it will ever be proven.

But who cares? Why is it relevant ?

We are still worth a lot. We are still of value. WE don't need a reason, the simple fact that we EXIST means we have right to enjoy.

You always talk in terms of proofs. In matters of philosophy and theology, we ask questions and pose answers. That is all. Every time I ask a question or suggest an answer, you generally respond by saying that "I can't prove my assertion." To my recollection, I've never tried to prove anything on this board. The proper way to respond to someone on this board would be to disagree either with their argument or the manner in which they pose a question. To tell me that I can't prove anything is a propos to nothing. A religion forum is naturally speculative. We wouldn't be speculating if we could prove anything right?

To your point about not needing a reason to have a right "to enjoy", I agree. You need no excuse or reason to be a hedonist. However, if you're going to argue on this board about principles of social justice and the like, I'm afraid you do. Because you see, if human beings are accidental in the grand scheme of things, and if the values we cling to don't adhere to a transcendent Other, then you're deluding yourself. Without God, life means nothing outside of your own enjoyment. That might be enough for you. So be it. But don't continue to make arguments about fairness and common decency. Because, if you are undecided about whether or not your humanity is real or not, what ground are you standing on to render any kind of moral judgment?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
We are of Absolute Value REGARDLESS of what part of the cosmos we derive, or no matter how we were made.

Why are we of Absolute Value, if you don't have an opinion on how humanity fits into the grand scheme of things? Are you in fact arguing that we are significant? Could it be that you have discovered a meaning to things without traveling the length of the universe, as you suggested? And what's this "no matter how we were made" line? Are we slipping Lord U? I thought there was no Creator.

Originally posted by Alliance
I hate that Drake equation...its like a two year old doing calculus.

I dont consider it accurate.

I suppose it would be accurate... if we knew what values the various numbers were. Without that it is kind of pointless.