Runner and Silver Surfer vs. Hal Jordan and Superman

Originally posted by Juntai
People seem to forget that he's done battle with gods, Darkseid, Dominus, Blaze, Doomsday, exactly how long should I make this list? Superman's list of accomplishments goes on for days. Some people think he's over-rated, but the truth is, on the forum he's severely under-rated given who he's defeated and what he's accomplished and what he's faced and prevailed over.

Ok I was under the impression that Darkseid was around Thanos's level. As far as I know the Doomsday that Superman beat was not as powerful as Thanos. Superman had to use a motherbox to beat other versions. I dont see how tha Doomsday that Superman, beat was above Thanos.

Originally posted by Juntai

What do you mean which ones?
Runner has only a handful of appearances, his feats are very few, especially when you take away the gem. Check his respect thread, and check Superman's and you'll find one that equals or simply outdoes Runner in pretty much every category.

Well frist of all the gem didnt make Runner faster. So when he was fighting Thanos he wasnt using it. Runner may have few appearnces but Thanos and Silver Surfer have loads since Runner has pawned both of them we could compare Silver Sufer or Thanos feats to Superman.

Ive been to the Superman respect thread. Superman has better strength feats but thats all I can think of.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok I was under the impression that Darkseid was around Thanos's level. As far as I know the Doomsday that Superman beat was not as powerful as Thanos. Superman had to use a motherbox to beat other versions. I dont see how tha Doomsday that Superman, beat was above Thanos.

Well frist of all the gem didnt make Runner faster. So when he was fighting Thanos he wasnt using it. Runner may have few appearnces but Thanos and Silver Surfer have loads since Runner has pawned both of them we could compare Silver Sufer or Thanos feats to Superman.

Ive been to the Superman respect thread. Superman has better strength feats but thats all I can think of.

Surfer and Thanos' feats aren't applicable here. He's not battling those characters, it's not interchangable. A>B>C logic doesn't work well. And even if we do count it, given the people he's defeated, Superman still comes out on top. He's simply defeated more powerful foes than Runner has.

Runner's feats nor his battle victories stand up to Superman's.
It's really not that tough to understand.

Originally posted by Juntai
I was naming very powerful foes, Doomsday is in fact up there in power. 'As far as you know' doesn't mean much when you admittedly don't know DC characters. Doomsday Rex proved to be very powerful later on after his defeat at the hands of Superman.

Are you being patronising again? Look thats the whole point why I said "as far as I know" it was an attempt to be polite as possible because you might flip out. Couldnt help the condersending remark though.

Originally posted by Juntai

Surfer and Thanos' feats aren't applicable here. He's not battling those characters, it's not interchangable. A>B>C logic doesn't work well. And even if we do count it, given the people he's defeated, Superman still comes out on top. He's simply defeated more powerful foes than Runner has.

Runner's feats nor his battle victories stand up to Superman's.
It's really not that tough to understand.

Ok i'll look into Doomsday Rex but I still dont see how DS is more powerful than Thanos.

P.S. IM not getting anything on wiki on Doomsday Rex what version of Doomsday is he?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Are you being patronising again? Look thats the whole point why I said "as far as I know" it was an attempt to be polite as possible because you might flip out. Couldnt help the condersending remark though.

Ok i'll look into Doomsday Rex but I still dont see how DS is more powerful than Thanos.

I'm not quite sure why you keep refering back to Thanos anyways, Runner had a decent showing against him, but I don't recall Runner being the one on top at the end of the conflict as it stands. And I have read Thanos Quest. . . Making his only legitimate defeat over a validated character that I know of- overpowering a confused Surfer. Not too spectacular.

As it stands, Superman trumps in the battle victories category, and he also trumps the feats category.

Originally posted by Juntai
I was naming very powerful foes, Doomsday is in fact up there in power. 'As far as you know' doesn't mean much when you admittedly don't know DC characters. Doomsday Rex proved to be very powerful later on after his defeat at the hands of Superman.

Surfer and Thanos' feats aren't applicable here. He's not battling those characters, it's not interchangable. A>B>C logic doesn't work well. And even if we do count it, given the people he's defeated, Superman still comes out on top. He's simply defeated more powerful foes than Runner has.

Runner's feats nor his battle victories stand up to Superman's.
It's really not that tough to understand.

or let's say Aegis versus Flash, Flash wins, spite, right?

😐 common sense trumps logic, logic just happens to be a particularly transparent and linear type of reasoning, hence its frequent application to remove confusion/provide clarity, but it isn't applicable in all circumstances.

Originally posted by Juntai
I was naming very powerful foes, Doomsday is in fact up there in power. 'As far as you know' doesn't mean much when you admittedly don't know DC characters. Doomsday Rex proved to be very powerful later on after his defeat at the hands of Superman.

Surfer and Thanos' feats aren't applicable here. He's not battling those characters, it's not interchangable. A>B>C logic doesn't work well. And even if we do count it, given the people he's defeated, Superman still comes out on top. He's simply defeated more powerful foes than Runner has.

Runner's feats nor his battle victories stand up to Superman's.
It's really not that tough to understand.

The runner is not a mainstream character so therefore him not having many feats is understandable. Now this superman having beaten guys above thanos and surfer is a really weak argument. Most of his victories iver people that are above SS and thanos level were highly based on the circumstances and involved great bouts of PIS and CIS
and certainly not due to his own power. Heck the surfer has taken galctus on more than one occassion and thor has taken galactus and a celestial and who hasnt thanos beaten? The point is unless the victory showed that the character was truly more powerful than his opponent then it counts for nothing. Thats the difference between the runners victories and supermans, the runners victories over surfer and thanos were legit( without PIS ) and actually showed him as being more powerful than them. The runner would take supes easy and the surfer is above any green lantern. Surfers team wins this with no problems

Originally posted by Juntai
How about Dominus? He was a universal level threat. Blaze? She was all-powerful in her own dimension- where Superman defeated her. On and on.

I'll do a wiki on those guys.

Originally posted by Juntai

I'm not quite sure why you keep refering back to Thanos anyways, Runner had a decent showing against him, but I don't recall Runner being the one on top at the end of the conflict as it stands. And I have read Thanos Quest. . . Making his only legitimate defeat over a validated character that I know of-

As for Thanos, Runner could have killed him easily but Runner spent too much time listening to Thanos and Thanos used the time gem on him. If Thanos did not have the gem he would have died and Runner didnt use the space gem to beat him therefore we can assume thar Runner is more powerful than Thanos.

Originally posted by Juntai

overpowering a confused Surfer. Not too spectacular.

Well that was due to the fact that Runner can have a mental affect on his opponents. Anyway Runner could have beaten Thanos and SS stated that all Elders were more powerful than him so we can assume that Runner would have beaten SS even if he wasnt confused, to be quite frank SS looked like he shrugged it off.

Originally posted by janus77
so let's apply your logic to WW versus Uatu The Watcher.
clearly WW creams Uatu right?

or let's say Aegis versus Flash, Flash wins, spite, right?

😐 common sense trumps logic, logic just happens to be a particularly transparent and linear type of reasoning, hence its frequent application to remove confusion/provide clarity, but it isn't applicable in all circumstances.

Superman has the feats, and also has the victories over the more powerful foes.

You're the one that has to bring evidence of Runner being able to beat Superman to the table, besides wild speculation and character hype. No need to insult my intelligence over it.

The truth is, you can't, because the evidence doesn't exist.
Thus, the arguement that's he's superior doesn't exist.
Thus, Superman clearly triumphs.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Now this superman having beaten guys above thanos and surfer is a really weak argument. Most of his victories iver people that are above SS and thanos level were highly based on the circumstances and involved great bouts of PIS and CIS
and certainly not due to his own power. s

This is what I suspect. Supes is herald level character you don beat uiversal threats and all-powerful people without CIS, PIS or cirumstance. Its like when people tell me that MM easily controlled Spectre, sounds like PIS. Spectre is abstract what is MM easily doing controlling him?

Originally posted by Juntai
You were the one saying he beat the confused Surfer, and thus is more powerful than Superman. I was telling you from the start that A>B>C logic is not the best way to determine a victor, it's only a fraction of it.

Superman has the feats, and also has the victories over the more powerful foes.

You're the one that has to bring evidence of Runner being able to beat Superman to the table, besides wild speculation and character hype. No need to insult my intelligence over it.

The truth is, you can't, because the evidence doesn't exist.
Thus, the arguement that's he's superior doesn't exist.
Thus, Superman clearly triumphs.

since you failed to respond to the point about the comparative lack of 'comic time' for Runner, and most importantly his fringe role in Marvel comicdom, as opposed to Superman's iconic and central role within DC comics, I had no choice but to demonstrate that your logic was not applicable in this situation.

I'm not insulting your intelligence, as such, just wondering how you think you can base their relative powers purely on "feats". it's not a reasonable way to go about comparing them 😐.

Originally posted by ultimatethor
The runner is not a mainstream character so therefore him not having many feats is understandable. Now this superman having beaten guys above thanos and surfer is a really weak argument. Most of his victories iver people that are above SS and thanos level were highly based on the circumstances and involved great bouts of PIS and CIS
and certainly not due to his own power. Heck the surfer has taken galctus on more than one occassion and thor has taken galactus and a celestial and who hasnt thanos beaten? The point is unless the victory showed that the character was truly more powerful than his opponent then it counts for nothing. Thats the difference between the runners victories and supermans, the runners victories over surfer and thanos were legit( without PIS ) and actually showed him as being more powerful than them. The runner would take supes easy and the surfer is above any green lantern. Surfers team wins this with no problems

What in-continuity issue did Surfer defeat Galactus in?

You're claiming the victories[or rather VictorY, as being discussed here, because he didn't win over Thanos.] are more validated than Superman's, but only out of speculation and the fact that it was a generalised comment and you haven't refuted or disproved anything here.

Originally posted by janus77
I was pointing out the reason why I think Runner is far out of Superman's league. you wanted to go by "feats" (volume of high showings), so I demonstrated the absurdity of sticking with that method too rigidly.

since you failed to respond to the point about the comparative lack of 'comic time' for Runner, and most importantly his fringe role in Marvel comicdom, as opposed to Superman's iconic and central role within DC comics, I had no choice but to demonstrate that your logic was not applicable in this situation.

I'm not insulting your intelligence, as such, just wondering how you think you can base their relative powers purely on "feats". it's not a reasonable way to go about comparing them 😐.

If you're admittedly saying you believe he's stronger just "because", so be it. I can't debate a complete lack of anything resembling a stance with a complete lack of evidence to base it upon.

But when we judge their on panel performances, it's simply not true.

Runner and Surfer got this one.

Originally posted by Juntai
I've acknowledged his lack of appearances several times. But what it comes down to this- his wins aren't as impressive as Supermans, and his feats aren't as impressive as Supermans in nearly any category. Leaving no reason to believe he's mightier save hopes and desires.

If you're admittedly saying you believe he's stronger just "because", so be it. I can't debate a complete lack of anything resembling a stance with a complete lack of evidence to base it upon.

But when we judge their on panel performances, it's simply not true.

the comparison of "feats" is what I am referring to as being an inadequate means of assessing these two, and I have demonstrated how it would tend to produce absurd results (WW >> Aegis for instance).

you cannot deny the limitations of such feats-comparison when characters occupy so vastly differing amounts of 'comic time', so why persist in going on and on about Superman's feats.

either you view Superman as being more powerful than Thanos and Surfer, in which case you're free to say that he would beat Runner, or you view him as being somewhere closer to what many here (including myself, naturally) see him as - mid-tier herald at best - in which case, reason suggests that if Surfer and Thanos got slapped down by Runner, then Superman wouldn't fare any better at all.

just out of curiosity, how do you envisage Superman beating/touching/hitting Runner?

Originally posted by janus77
we're going round-and-around in circles here. his "feats" are in direct proportion to his appearances, he doesn't have many ergo you can only judge him on what he's been shown to do and what Marvel rate him as (an Elder is significantly beyond Surfer, iirc).

the comparison of "feats" is what I am referring to as being an inadequate means of assessing these two, and I have demonstrated how it would tend to produce absurd results (WW >> Aegis for instance).

you cannot deny the limitations of such feats-comparison when characters occupy so vastly differing amounts of 'comic time', so why persist in going on and on about Superman's feats.

either you view Superman as being more powerful than Thanos and Surfer, in which case you're free to say that he would beat Runner, or you view him as being somewhere closer to what many here (including myself, naturally) see him as - mid-tier herald at best - in which case, reason suggests that if Surfer and Thanos got slapped down by Runner, then Superman wouldn't fare any better at all.

just out of curiosity, how do you envisage Superman beating/touching/hitting Runner?

Comics is what we debate, not hype, speculation, and hopes and dreams.

Runner didn't defeat Thanos. His only victory over a legitimized character is taking down a confused Silver Surfer.

If you feel that Elders are vastly beyond Heralds, explain Surfer and Obliterator? Gladiator and Ego? Beta Ray Bill and Ego?
How about this?
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silversurfer198800919eq1.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silversurfer198800920tf9.jpg

sigh 😐.

ok, so going by comparing "feats", would you agree with me that WonderWoman would beat Ashema? or let's say Superman would beat Zeus?

Also, when Runner returned the group of Elders and was gloating his victory, it was said that Surfer was not at full power due to other battles in the same arc- Champion and Korvac, and overcoming plotting by Grandmaster for his downfall.

And then ALSO in the very same arc AFTER the Runner fight, Surfer and Nova give most of the entire lot of Elders trouble at once, and almost destroy them, by simply throwing them towards a black hole? -- [I gave some scans of this one in my other post]

And as stated before of course, Runner didn't defeat Thanos. Thanos was the one left standing in Thanos Quest. A good showing? Sure. A win? Far from it. Winning requires him to have had Thanos submit, be knocked out, or some other variable of the same kind when their fight ended. None of these took place, and Thanos was left standing.

Good debate.

Originally posted by janus77
sigh 😐.

ok, so going by comparing "feats", would you agree with me that WonderWoman would beat Ashema? or let's say Superman would beat Zeus?

Originally posted by Juntai
Runner didn't defeat Thanos. Thanos was the one left standing in Thanos Quest. A good showing? Sure. A win? Far from it. Winning requires him to have had Thanos submit, be knocked out, or some other variable of the same kind when their fight ended. None of these took place, and Thanos was left standing. Simple as that.

I dunno man I thought I explained this. *shrug*

Originally posted by Alfheim

As for Thanos, Runner could have killed him easily but Runner spent too much time listening to Thanos and Thanos used the time gem on him. If Thanos did not have the gem he would have died and Runner didnt use the space gem to beat him therefore we can assume thar Runner is more powerful than Thanos.

Originally posted by Juntai

If you feel that Elders are vastly beyond Heralds, explain Surfer and Obliterator?

Easy not alll Elders have the same powers. Some Elders rely on tech. Oblitertors tech was more powerful than Surfer and was going to kill him but Surfer used his matter control powers to alter the tech. Its the same way Surfer beat Champion, Surfer was more versatile. Hell even if you look at Chmaps previous appearnces he could be argued that Champs should not have lost anyway.

Originally posted by Juntai

Gladiator and Ego? Beta Ray Bill and Ego?

Well what happened?

Originally posted by Juntai
How about this?
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silversurfer198800919eq1.jpg
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silversurfer198800920tf9.jpg

I dunno man Grandmaster is a skyfather level character and has the power to alter and create new realities and Nova is able to suck him into a black hole and he cant do anything. *shrug*

Originally posted by Juntai
Also, when Runner returned the group of Elders and was gloating his victory, it was said that Surfer was not at full power due to other battles in the same arc- Champion and Korvac, and overcoming plotting by Grandmaster for his downfall.

That doesnt matter because even if he was at full power hes not as powerful as Thanos.

Originally posted by Juntai

And then ALSO in the very same arc AFTER the Runner fight, Surfer and Nova give most of the entire lot of Elders trouble at once, and almost destroy them, by simply throwing them towards a black hole? -- [I gave some scans of this one in my other post]

That just sounds like PIS. GM on his own should be able to kill NOva nd SS. SS was a pawn in one of GMs games. Now all of a sudden he able to give the Elders hell.

The whole thing was just bad writing to make SS look good.

Originally posted by Juntai

Superman has defeated more powerful foes than Runner has.
Superman has the feats.

Well is this true? You didnt respond to this?

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Now this superman having beaten guys above thanos and surfer is a really weak argument. Most of his victories iver people that are above SS and thanos level were highly based on the circumstances and involved great bouts of PIS and CIS

I dont know if its true but it makes sense. 😐