World Religions

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
1. All human governments falter at one time or another, whether they have Christian social underpinnings or not.

2. Most of the despotic governments of the twentieth century have openly professed atheism and hostility to relegious belief.

Draw any conclusions from this that you will.

1) You still have not countered my actual points. Religion made no contribution to the success of happiness of any nation collectively. Religion is better suited for personal usage, and should stay outta politics.

2) The only example I can think of for your point is China.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Yet governments based on Christianity and/or Biblical morals have proven far more successful than any liberal athiest government.

OMG!!! I wish I could find a copy of that owl that goes O RLY?

What proof, exactly, do you have for this? Historically speaking the most remembered, and culturally shaping some would say, governments where polytheistic. And very tolerant. Rome, Greece, the Egyptians etc. Christianity, some can argue quite convincingly, was the kiss of death for the West Roman Empire.

And are we talking the extreme Christianity of the Middle Ages? Those governments were certainly bundles of fun. Nations really started flourishing again when they cut the power to the Churches and their ability to influence a nations politics. The separation of Church and state was one of the most sound political decisions ever made.

1. All human governments falter at one time or another, whether they have Christian social underpinnings or not.

True, true. Christianity does not protect a nations from the same considerations that effect everybody.

2. Most of the despotic governments of the twentieth century have openly professed atheism and hostility to relegious belief.

As opposed to all the Christian ones before the 20th century (yes, I am going back from the beginning of Christianity to moder times.) And it depends - are you simply looking at Communists and Fascists? Lets not forget the number of Islamic dictators. Or some of the Christian despots that the US and co. backed during the Cold War. And so on. But generally religion has been crippled in terms of exerting political control -ideology and culture have replaced it. I would say it is very debatable whether the Christian Church would be nearly as nice if it still had the considerable political control/power it had in the past (and that speaks for itself really.).

Originally posted by fini
Hey who wants pizza???

LOL @ shaky trying to flare tempers, hehe

No temper flaming, just giving people the opportunity to show their true colors. 😉

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
What proof, exactly, do you have for this? Historically speaking the most remembered, and culturally shaping some would say, governments where polytheistic. And very tolerant. Rome, Greece, the Egyptians etc. Christianity, some can argue quite convincingly, was the kiss of death for the West Roman Empire.

And are we talking the extreme Christianity of the Middle Ages? Those governments were certainly bundles of fun. Nations really started flourishing again when they cut the power to the Churches and their ability to influence a nations politics. The separation of Church and state was one of the most sound political decisions ever made.

True, true. Christianity does not protect a nations from the same considerations that effect everybody.

Christian nations that prospered under God:
1. Byzantium Empire 476-1483... over 1000 years. It became weaker as the orthodox church strayed further and further from the truth of the Bible. Its peak was under perhaps the most Christian emperor it had, Justinian (around 600AD if my memory is right).

2. British Empire from 1066-2006... fast approaching 1000 years and still extremely powerful. Once controlled the entire Commonwealth which was far bigger than the Roman Empire. Lost its empire and has gradually weakened in recent centuries as it separates from Biblical principles.

3. America 1776-2006... 230 years of greatness. The most powerful nation in the world and likely the most Christian. However, its position as a world superpower is undeniably in jeopardy as it separates itself from the Biblical principles it was founded on.

4. Holy Roman Empire... One of my weaker arguments. Was a European power on and off for about 700 years. It reached highest extent of powers under its more pious emperors (Charlemagne and Barbarossa who were flawed though).

5. South Korea... is currently booming and experiencing prosperity as it is one of the more Christian countries in the world. South Korea sends out more missionaries than any nation other than America.

6. Alberta, Canada (not a nation but still)... The most Christian province in Canada. Premier Ralph Klein was notorious for sticking to principles which while never Biblically based were Biblically attuned. The Conservative party averages around 65% of the vote in Alberta, usually in excess of 70% in rural areas. Alberta is the richest province in Canada has massive surpluses (the government gives money back to the people because it doesn't need tax money), and is so prosperous and booming that there is a labour SHORTAGE of around 30 000 in a province of only 3 000 000. I believe God is blessing the righteous and faithful there.

7. Some of you Americans may hate me for this, but despite his flaws... Castro made Cuba a much better place than it was under Baptista. Castro followed many Biblical principles rooting out centers of immorality and a lot of corruption (although he has since been corrupted).

The Great Non-Christian Empires:
1. Rome (so-called the greatest empire in existence) true international power only from 273 BC to 476AD. That's barely 600 years. The Western Roman Empire existed on Roman principles while the East relied on Christian principles. The West fell quickly.

2. Greece... never even united and was constantly at war with itself. Frequently conquered and subjected to foreign rule.

3. Alexander 11 years... clap, clap, clap

4. Medes and Persians about 300 years... not all that long, but was likely extended and aided because several of its kings acknowledged God.

5. Babylonians... though glorious it never controlled much land for very long, likely extended because it occasionally confessed God.

6. Assyrians... short-lived though extended through repentance.

7. Egyptians... frequently conquered and under foreign rule and never a true international power for very long.

8. Mongols... maybe 400 years, now one of the poorest nations in the world

9. Napoleon... not very long.

Other non-Christian failures:
1. USSR 1917-1991... denied God and accepted atheism which led to the horrible state of affairs it was in.

2. China from 1949-2006... you know its terrible problems.

3. Cuba under Baptista. An absolute disaster.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I think to remember that nations founded on biblical principles can have separation of church and state and actually believe in the separation of church and state.

Christian nations that prospered under God:
1. Byzantium Empire 476-1483... over 1000 years. It became weaker as the orthodox church strayed further and further from the truth of the Bible. Its peak was under perhaps the most Christian emperor it had, Justinian (around 600AD if my memory is right).

2. British Empire from 1066-2006... fast approaching 1000 years and still extremely powerful. Once controlled the entire Commonwealth which was far bigger than the Roman Empire. Lost its empire and has gradually weakened in recent centuries as it separates from Biblical principles.

3. America 1776-2006... 230 years of greatness. The most powerful nation in the world and likely the most Christian. However, its position as a world superpower is undeniably in jeopardy as it separates itself from the Biblical principles it was founded on.

4. Holy Roman Empire... One of my weaker arguments. Was a European power on and off for about 700 years. It reached highest extent of powers under its more pious emperors (Charlemagne and Barbarossa who were flawed though).

5. South Korea... is currently booming and experiencing prosperity as it is one of the more Christian countries in the world. South Korea sends out more missionaries than any nation other than America.

6. Alberta, Canada (not a nation but still)... The most Christian province in Canada. Premier Ralph Klein was notorious for sticking to principles which while never Biblically based were Biblically attuned. The Conservative party averages around 65% of the vote in Alberta, usually in excess of 70% in rural areas. Alberta is the richest province in Canada has massive surpluses (the government gives money back to the people because it doesn't need tax money), and is so prosperous and booming that there is a labour SHORTAGE of around 30 000 in a province of only 3 000 000. I believe God is blessing the righteous and faithful there.

7. Some of you Americans may hate me for this, but despite his flaws... Castro made Cuba a much better place than it was under Baptista. Castro followed many Biblical principles rooting out centers of immorality and a lot of corruption (although he has since been corrupted).

While that is certainly one way of looking at it, I think it is debatable to attribute the successes and failings of said nations solely to Christianity. You are leaving out aspects of geography, technological advancement, natural resources, population, the degree in which other nations at the time could help or hinder them and so on. And there is a difference between a nation having a majority of Christians, and one being founded on "principles of the Bible" as it were. Certainly in the case of the East Romans and the British their nations have strong pagan traditions that were over time usurped by Christianity. Likewise certain others (the US) while with religious aspects in their founding, were far from a religious endeavour.

A holistic and studied view of any one of those you just mentioned would not have Christianity as the corner stone of their successes or failings. A nation that is successful and builds an empire and all that likely has a multitude of reasons for its success, not just "we followed the Bible."

The Great Non-Christian Empires:
1. Rome (so-called the greatest empire in existence) true international power only from 273 BC to 476AD. That's barely 600 years. The Western Roman Empire existed on Roman principles while the East relied on Christian principles. The West fell quickly.

??? The West, at the time of collapse, was strongly Christian also. Christianity is seen as one of the contributing factors of the Wests descent into what many incorrectly call the Dark Ages. And it would be worth pointing out that the West was far more sucesful in stamping out "immoral behaviour" then the East, which is well noted for being a hotbed of tenacious Eastern Cults, magic and the Oriental lifestyle.

2. Greece... never even united and was constantly at war with itself. Frequently conquered and subjected to foreign rule.

Different types of Empires, the Greeks had been culturally influential for a terribly long time, and contributed to the Romans, Etruscans, Phoenicians etc. Their religion and language was influencing cultures, like the Romans, decades to centuries before they became prominent.

3. Alexander 11 years... clap, clap, clap

Not forgetting his successors ruled the fractured pieces for a long time till the Romans took them over.

4. Medes and Persians about 300 years... not all that long, but was likely extended and aided because several of its kings acknowledged God.

The Parthians, and the Persians, lasted a lot longer then that, and at times were a viable opponent to both the United Roman Empire and The Eastern Roman Empire.

5. Babylonians... though glorious it never controlled much land for very long, likely extended because it occasionally confessed God.

??? What God? The Babylonians were powerful and dead a good long while before Christianity.

6. Assyrians... short-lived though extended through repentance.

Ditto.

7. Egyptians... frequently conquered and under foreign rule and never a true international power for very long.

The Egyptians were a force in their region for thousands of years - and then vitally important to both the Greeks and Romans.

And don't forget the great Chinese Empires that cycled before the west eventually came. Or the Islamic Empires. Or the Sumerian's. Or the Carthaginians who were well established while the Romans were still trying to subjugate Italy.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
While that is certainly one way of looking at it, I think it is debatable to attribute the successes and failings of said nations solely to Christianity. You are leaving out aspects of geography, technological advancement, natural resources, population, the degree in which other nations at the time could help or hinder them and so on.
??? The West, at the time of collapse, was strongly Christian also. Christianity is seen as one of the contributing factors of the Wests descent into what many incorrectly call the Dark Ages. And it would be worth pointing out that the West was far more successful in stamping out "immoral behaviour" then the East, which is well noted for being a hotbed of tenacious Eastern Cults, magic and the Oriental lifestyle.

Different types of Empires, the Greeks had been culturally influential for a terribly long time, and contributed to the Romans, Etruscans, Phoenicians etc. Their religion and language was influencing cultures, like the Romans, decades to centuries before they became prominent.

Not forgetting his successors ruled the fractured pieces for a long time till the Romans took them over.

The Parthians, and the Persians, lasted a lot longer then that, and at times were a viable opponent to both the United Roman Empire and The Eastern Roman Empire.

??? What God? The Babylonians were powerful and dead a good long while before Christianity.

Ditto.

The Egyptians were a force in their region for thousands of years - and then vitally important to both the Greeks and Romans.

And don't forget the great Chinese Empires that cycled before the west eventually came. Or the Islamic Empires. Or the Sumerian's. Or the Carthaginians who were well established while the Romans were still trying to subjugate Italy.

1. Your argument is a good one, but I would say that the West was still under original Roman law and ideals, not entirely Christian. Also, the Catholic Church was the power in Rome and it was often far from Christian. But I guess I actually agree with you here.

2. The Greeks were influential because they were a well developed culture, not because their ideals were good. I would argue that the full practice of Greek ideals never lead to any strong kingdoms.

3. Although two of the successor states were powerful (Ptolemics and Seleucids) they only lasted until from about 332BC-100BC and that is not very long.

4. The Parthians and the Persians were two different people groups. The Persians originating in southern Iran, the Medes from northern Iran, and the Parthians coming later from the area around the Caspian Sea. The Persians fell quickly, while the Parthians and Sassanids lasted (from what I know) from about 200AD to about 900AD when the Muslim Arabs took hold of the Middle East.

5. I said Biblical principles not Christianity. The Babylonians were influenced by the Jews at certain points. In fact, the Babylonian king Nebuchanezzar actually wrote part of the Bible. Daniel was the third highest administrator in the Babylonian Empire on the day it was destroyed.

6. Same thing. God sent the prophet Jonah to Nineveh to prophecy their destruction and the entire city repented and was spared.

7. The Egyptians were rarely powerful outside of Egypt thoughout history. They generally controlled the Nile and nothing more.

8. The Chinese Empires didn't usually last long and were in reality usually very small, controlling only small regions. The Chinese never truly unified and this is why the Mongols were able to defeat them. The Sumerians were not a powerful nation, but a people living in various city-states. And they actually had knowledge of God from my understanding because Abraham was from Ur, one of the greatest Sumerian cities. The Carthagians controlled a small part of the Mediterrean from about 700-250 BC which is not all that long. They were more merchants than an empire. The Carthagian armies were mercanaries hired with their wealth to fight for them. Since you seem to love Rome Total War, I recommend you try some of the mods for the game including Rome Total Realism's lastest version and Europa Barbarian. You may see this in those games, but I'm not sure. The Islamic empires have been able to control a lot of territory and people for a long time, but I would say that their moral principles have a lot to do with it. However, no one Islamic empire has truly lasted a long time. It has broken and reformed many times. The truly outstanding Islamic empire would probably be that of the Ottoman Turks, but they too fell.

Religion does not make or break a nation.

Alexanders Religious legacy was one of mixing gods and bringing people together for the first time. His strategy of combining dieties was a brilliant step in creating pantheism. The Romans easliy copted this when they arrived in the area.

Chrsitainity had nothing to do with the Mayan, Aztec, and Islamic empires, and both were among the most significant empires in the world. They fell just as every other nation has (or is in the process of). Its not because they didn't have Christian thought.

Islam saved intellectual thought from Christianity.

Originally posted by Alliance
Islam saved intellectual thought from Christianity.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I don't know how you can claim that when some the greatest scientists of all times were Christians.

LMAOOOOOOO 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Albert Einstien was Jewish......

Leonardo Da Vinci was gay....

Neither were Christian

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LMAOOOOOOO 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Albert Einstien was Jewish......

Leonardo Da Vinci was gay....

Neither were Christian

Originally posted by Nellinator
1. Your argument is a good one, but I would say that the West was still under original Roman law and ideals, not entirely Christian. Also, the Catholic Church was the power in Rome and it was often far from Christian. But I guess I actually agree with you here.

I guess it is the old Catholics vs. All other Christians. Of course I would say that the Holy Roman Empire was primarily Catholic, and that was one of the pro-Christian empires you mentioned. How far, in your view, does a state have to go to be considered Christian? Because I think the later Western side of the Roman Empire was pretty strong - saints, Church councils (hey, the version of the Bible we have today can be attributed to the West), the stamping out of herasy, the infilitration of Biblical doctrine into laws etc.

2. The Greeks were influential because they were a well developed culture, not because their ideals were good. I would argue that the full practice of Greek ideals never lead to any strong kingdoms.

I still say different kinds of empire. The Greeks influenced most cultures, for a long time, and continued to shape the Romans even after they were conquered. While land controlled is often a measure of Empire, influence should be equally considered.

3. Although two of the successor states were powerful (Ptolemics and Seleucids) they only lasted until from about 332BC-100BC and that is not very long.

Yet they were still two powerful non-Christian empires, eventually consumed by another non-Christian Empire.

4. The Parthians and the Persians were two different people groups. The Persians originating in southern Iran, the Medes from northern Iran, and the Parthians coming later from the area around the Caspian Sea. The Persians fell quickly, while the Parthians and Sassanids lasted (from what I know) from about 200AD to about 900AD when the Muslim Arabs took hold of the Middle East.

I know the difference between the two, and often lament the lack of attention paid to the Parthians in history. And the Sassanids were a type of Persian, ones that caused the East Romans many problems, until they were eventually broken by East Roman might - weakening them sufficiently in a way that was conducive to the Muslims over coming them. And technically the Seleucid's also qualify as a Persian power. In all reality in one form or another the Persians were about in the BC and long after the AD.

5. I said Biblical principles not Christianity. The Babylonians were influenced by the Jews at certain points. In fact, the Babylonian king Nebuchanezzar actually wrote part of the Bible. Daniel was the third highest administrator in the Babylonian Empire on the day it was destroyed.

So does the old testament alone qualify as Biblical principle?

6. Same thing. God sent the prophet Jonah to Nineveh to prophecy their destruction and the entire city repented and was spared.

Which is a claim, though far from historically verifiable.

7. The Egyptians were rarely powerful outside of Egypt thoughout history. They generally controlled the Nile and nothing more.

Well, firstly for a long time they had no reason to be powerful outside of Egypt - their were few challenging powers in those days, but when the call came the Egyptians were usually capable of a show of force - as the Nubians will attest. And why does not being powerful outside of Egypt matter? They were culturally and economically influential for a very long time, and in ratio they did have an empire, and it did last a long time.

8. The Chinese Empires didn't usually last long and were in reality usually very small, controlling only small regions. The Chinese never truly unified and this is why the Mongols were able to defeat them.

Once again its perspective. The Chinese have a fascinating way of viewing their history, a cycle in nature, a constant rise and fall. It is one of the only nations around today that has had a constant civilisation. Also not forgetting the many scientific and philosophical matters they gave to the world.

The Sumerians were not a powerful nation, but a people living in various city-states. And they actually had knowledge of God from my understanding because Abraham was from Ur, one of the greatest Sumerian cities.

A similarity to the Greeks, city states could be powerful political entities, and as a culture they were important.

The Carthagians controlled a small part of the Mediterrean from about 700-250 BC which is not all that long. They were more merchants than an empire. The Carthagian armies were mercanaries hired with their wealth to fight for them.

How long does an Empire have to hang around for you to consider it worthy? The Carthaginians deserve more respect. And remembering, in antiquity a merchant power was a valid expression of empire, and they had more then enough Empiric might to cause problems for the Romans on more then one occasion (Early Rome, then a bit later.)

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I know the difference between the two, and often lament the lack of attention paid to the Parthians in history. And the Sassanids were a type of Persian, ones that caused the East Romans many problems, until they were eventually broken by East Roman might - weakening them sufficiently in a way that was conducive to the Muslims over coming them. And technically the Seleucid's also qualify as a Persian power. In all reality in one form or another the Persians were about in the BC and long after the AD.

So does the old testament alone qualify as Biblical principle?

I too believe that the Parthians and Sassanids are horribly underestimated. They even captured the Roman emperor Valerian. The steppes and Iran has a very rich and underexplored history indeed.

And yes it did back then because Christ had not yet been born.

Christian nations that prospered under God:
1. Byzantium Empire 476-1483... over 1000 years. It became weaker as the orthodox church strayed further and further from the truth of the Bible. Its peak was under perhaps the most Christian emperor it had, Justinian (around 600AD if my memory is right).

-And thanks to its fellow Christians of the Fourth crusade who sacked and plundered it, the Byzantium empire become an easy prey to the Ottoman Turks. Christian charity at work.

2. British Empire from 1066-2006... fast approaching 1000 years and still extremely powerful. Once controlled the entire Commonwealth which was far bigger than the Roman Empire. Lost its empire and has gradually weakened in recent centuries as it separates from Biblical principles.

-First off, Britain is far from being the most Bible-friendly nation in Europe.

Second, Britain became powerful because it pioneered liberal ideas that challenged existing social structures like feudalism and the Divine Right of kings to rule.

Third, Britain became weak because its colonies demanded and received independence in the 20th-century. Without raw materials, even with the high quality of its man power, coming from its colonies, it could not compete with other superpowers like America and the Soviet Union which have plenty of resources at their own backyard.

3. America 1776-2006... 230 years of greatness. The most powerful nation in the world and likely the most Christian. However, its position as a world superpower is undeniably in jeopardy as it separates itself from the Biblical principles it was founded on.

-American greatness only started after the First World war. Washington needed help from France to secure independence, the Russian fleet was needed to deter Britain and France from interfering with the Civil War, and the Brits and the Canadians BURNED down Washington DC in the War of 1812.

Second, its NOT because of Biblical principles this nation prospered. Its the will of the settlers to improve their living standards in a land full of opportunity.

Third, Italy is the most Christian country there is.

Fourth, the fact that racism lingered in America, even up today, shows you just how un-Christian-like this country is.

4. Holy Roman Empire... One of my weaker arguments. Was a European power on and off for about 700 years. It reached highest extent of powers under its more pious emperors (Charlemagne and Barbarossa who were flawed though).

-Not only is the Holy Roman empire weak, but like Italy it wasnt even a unified whole for the majority of its existence. Its because of this disunity which made it weak, not because its rulers were none-PIOUS Christians.

5. South Korea... is currently booming and experiencing prosperity as it is one of the more Christian countries in the world. South Korea sends out more missionaries than any nation other than America.

-The South Korean boom is brought about by a World Bank 'bail-out' package back in 1997 not because its a Christian country.

6. Alberta, Canada (not a nation but still)... The most Christian province in Canada. Premier Ralph Klein was notorious for sticking to principles which while never Biblically based were Biblically attuned. The Conservative party averages around 65% of the vote in Alberta, usually in excess of 70% in rural areas. Alberta is the richest province in Canada has massive surpluses (the government gives money back to the people because it doesn't need tax money), and is so prosperous and booming that there is a labour SHORTAGE of around 30 000 in a province of only 3 000 000. I believe God is blessing the righteous and faithful there.

-IIRC, Quebec and Ontario was more industrialized than Alberta . . . . ah what the heck, i know next to nothing about them silly Canadians 😎.

7. Some of you Americans may hate me for this, but despite his flaws... Castro made Cuba a much better place than it was under Baptista. Castro followed many Biblical principles rooting out centers of immorality and a lot of corruption (although he has since been corrupted).

-And we attribute this success to Castro and Cuba's belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I just say that this is testament to Castro and Co. skill as administrators. Its not like the Cuban law making body sat down and said, "hey lets open up a Bible and pick the laws of our land from it." More likely, the Soviet Union had a hand when Cuba was drawing up their constitution.

The Great Non-Christian Empires:
1. Rome (so-called the greatest empire in existence) true international power only from 273 BC to 476AD. That's barely 600 years. The Western Roman Empire existed on Roman principles while the East relied on Christian principles. The West fell quickly.

-Constantine also brought Roman law, customs etc. - ie. Roman principles - to the Eastern Roman empire, Byzantium. He even bought worship of the emperor as a god; sanitized under the emperor's title as "God's Thirteenth disciple".

Second, Byzantium BRIBED Attila and his nomadic Huns to turn West, which in turn forced the Goths, Franks, Vandals etc. - ie.the "barbarians" migrated and entered Roman borders or perish under the Huns. Yes, Byzantium, that Christian empire, had a hand in the destruction of the Roman empire in the West.

Third, it is said that the (none-Christian) Han Chinese empire in the East fortified the Great Wall of China, which forced the Hsiung-Nu (the Huns) and one of the ancestors of the Mongol nation, to march West instead and pillage Europe.

2. Greece... never even united and was constantly at war with itself. Frequently conquered and subjected to foreign rule.

-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?Ancient Greece did the conquering culturally. Democracy and tyranny are both stable form of governments we inherited ffrom the Greeks.

3. Alexander 11 years... clap, clap, clap

-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I attribute this to lack of political unity after Alexander's death.

4. Medes and Persians about 300 years... not all that long, but was likely extended and aided because several of its kings acknowledged God.

-God? You mean Mithras, Ahura mazda, Tammuz etc. I've heard that Medes and Persians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, that itself is not verified to be true.

5. Babylonians... though glorious it never controlled much land for very long, likely extended because it occasionally confessed God.

-Nebuchadnezzar believing the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, is not verified to be true.

6. Assyrians... short-lived though extended through repentance.

-The Assyrians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible(in Jonah), that itself is not verified to be true.

7. Egyptians... frequently conquered and under foreign rule and never a true international power for very long.

- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The coming of Christianity sounded the death knell for the rich and pagan culture of the Egyptians.

8. Mongols... maybe 400 years, now one of the poorest nations in the world

- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The Mongols were swallowed up culturally by the people they conquered.

9. Napoleon... not very long.

- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the Christian and Jewish god? Napoleon was outmanouvered and out strategized by his enemies, plain and simple.

Other non-Christian failures:
1. USSR 1917-1991... denied God and accepted atheism which led to the horrible state of affairs it was in.

-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Russian orthodox church still flourished under Communism.

The Soviet premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Russian Christian tsars it replaced.

2. China from 1949-2006... you know its terrible problems.

-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Confucianism and buddhism still flourished under Communism.

The Chinese premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Chinese rulers it replaced.

3. Cuba under Baptista. An absolute disaster.

In short, empires and civilization RISE and FALL regardless whether they believe or not in Biblical principles. In fact, Biblical principles such as loyalty, compassion, love, brotherhood etc. are not Jewish/Christian inventions.

Other religions and civilizations, much earlier than Judaism and Christianity follow and expound the same concepts.

Originally posted by Nellinator
This could be an endless argument that neither of us have the full knowledge to end. I do agree that Christianity was not the end all for the power of an empire, but I do believe that it was highly influential.

I am reminded of a bit of Polybius, where he is talking about the strengths of the early Roman state (say Republic and earlier) and how he mentions religion as being useful and necessary in keeping the masses controlled, directed and happy. Whether Polybius was a religious man or not is questionable, but it was a wise observation - in the past religion has often been a useful state tool. A tool of the state, not the state being a tool of the religion.

I would agree Christianity was a useful force in state and Empire building - as a tool. Just like paganism or Islam or Hindu is useful. Religion, in the past, was an easy way of exerting control over a populous, especially when one weaves state and the state leaders into it. I don't see Christianity as any different here. However I can see no historic reason to believe there was actually God clearing the way for them and keeping their powers strong while withdrawing his support when they strayed. Really I see any number of factors other then this.

I too believe that the Parthians and Sassanids are horribly underestimated. They even captured the Roman emperor Valerian. The steppes and Iran has a very rich and underexplored history indeed.

Oh true, true. And stuffed his corpse, apparently, and put it on display when he died. I love the recounting of Julian the Apostates Persian campaigns as detailed by Ammianus Marcellinus. Wonderful stuff.

Same with the Parthians, especially when they defeated Crassus, easily the least deserving of being in the Triumvirate with Caesar and Pompey.

And yes it did back then because Christ had not yet been born.

So why did the Jews do so terribly? I can understand the times they supposedly strayed from the path - but the history of the Jews has, well, been a history of the oppressed. Basically every religion has done better then theirs (except the Jewish religion always survives.)

Originally posted by Nellinator
I don't know how you can claim that when some the greatest scientists of all times were Christians.

Without the Arabs to preserve Greek and Roman thought during the Middle and Dark ages, the Roman Catholic church would have burned down the works of them Greek and Roman pagans and send every free thinker to the burning stake.

Arabs back then are way more tolerant than they are now. Granted Islamic civilization STAGNATED in the 17th century, Western civilization OWES a lot of its Mid Eastern counterpart.

Originally posted by Templares
Without the Arabs to preserve Greek and Roman thought during the Middle and Dark ages, the Roman Catholic church would have burned down the works of them Greek and Roman pagans and send every free thinker to the burning stake.

Arabs back then are way more tolerant than they are now. Granted Islamic civilization STAGNATED in the 17th century, Western civilization OWES a lot of its Mid Eastern counterpart.

True. So few people give credit to the Islamic civilisations, simply focusing on the Turks. So few realise the contribution they made to medicine, thought, architecture and so on. It was quite a influx of progress the west got after the Crusades due to all the ideas they brought back from the East. Yet the East gets so little respect.

Originally posted by Templares
-And thanks to its fellow Christians of the Fourth crusade who sacked and plundered it, the Byzantium empire become an easy prey to the Ottoman Turks. Christian charity at work.

-First off, Britain is far from being the most Bible-friendly nation in Europe.

Second, Britain became powerful because it pioneered liberal ideas that challenged existing social structures like feudalism and the Divine Right of kings to rule.

Third, Britain became weak because its colonies demanded and received independence in the 20th-century. Without raw materials, even with the high quality of its man power, coming from its colonies, it could not compete with other superpowers like America and the Soviet Union which have plenty of resources at their own backyard.

-American greatness only started after the First World war. Washington needed help from France to secure independence, the Russian fleet was needed to deter Britain and France from interfering with the Civil War, and the Brits and the Canadians BURNED down Washington DC in the War of 1812.

Second, its NOT because of Biblical principles this nation prospered. Its the will of the settlers to improve their living standards in a land full of opportunity.

Third, Italy is the most Christian country there is.

Fourth, the fact that racism lingered in America, even up today, shows you just how un-Christian-like this country is.

-Not only is the Holy Roman empire weak, but like Italy it wasnt even a unified whole for the majority of its existence. Its because of this disunity which made it weak, not because its rulers were none-PIOUS Christians.

-The South Korean boom is brought about by a World Bank 'bail-out' package back in 1997 not because its a Christian country.

-IIRC, Quebec and Ontario was more industrialized than Alberta . . . . ah what the heck, i know next to nothing about them silly Canadians 😎.

-And we attribute this success to Castro and Cuba's belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I just say that this is testament to Castro and Co. skill as administrators. Its not like the Cuban law making body sat down and said, "hey lets open up a Bible and pick the laws of our land from it." More likely, the Soviet Union had a hand when Cuba was drawing up their constitution.

-Constantine also brought Roman law, customs etc. - ie. Roman principles - to the Eastern Roman empire, Byzantium. He even bought worship of the emperor as a god; sanitized under the emperor's title as "God's Thirteenth disciple".

Second, Byzantium BRIBED Attila and his nomadic Huns to turn West, which in turn forced the Goths, Franks, Vandals etc. - ie.the "barbarians" migrated and entered Roman borders or perish under the Huns. Yes, Byzantium, that Christian empire, had a hand in the destruction of the Roman empire in the West.

Third, it is said that the (none-Christian) Han Chinese empire in the East fortified the Great Wall of China, which forced the Hsiung-Nu (the Huns) and one of the ancestors of the Mongol nation, to march West instead and pillage Europe.

-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?Ancient Greece did the conquering culturally. Democracy and tyranny are both stable form of governments we inherited ffrom the Greeks.

-And we attribute this to their lack of belief in a Jewish/Christian god?. I attribute this to lack of political unity after Alexander's death.

-God? You mean Mithras, Ahura mazda, Tammuz etc. I've heard that Medes and Persians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, that itself is not verified to be true.

-Nebuchadnezzar believing the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible, is not verified to be true.

-The Assyrians are very tolerant of other religions but for their kings to actually believe the Jewish and/or Christian god as ascribed by the Bible(in Jonah), that itself is not verified to be true.

- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The coming of Christianity sounded the death knell for the rich and pagan culture of the Egyptians.

- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the God in the Bible? The Mongols were swallowed up culturally by the people they conquered.

- And again are we suppose to attribute this as to some kind of act of God from the Christian and Jewish god? Napoleon was outmanouvered and out strategized by his enemies, plain and simple.

-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Russian orthodox church still flourished under Communism.

The Soviet premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Russian Christian tsars it replaced.

-In theory, communist states should be atheistic, in practice its not. Confucianism and buddhism still flourished under Communism.

The Chinese premiers are no less ruthless and autocratic as the Chinese rulers it replaced.

-Yeah because he is inept not because its an act of God.

In short, empires and civilization RISE and FALL regardless whether they believe or not in Biblical principles. In fact, Biblical principles such as loyalty, compassion, love, brotherhood etc. are not Jewish/Christian inventions.

Other religions and civilizations, much earlier than Judaism and Christianity follow and expound the same concepts.

Italy is not the most Christian country in Europe. It has less Christians attending church than Muslims attending mosques. Just because it is steeped in Catholic tradition and history does not mean it is Christian. In fact, I consider Italy one of the most Godless nations of Europe. Britain actually is one of the most Bible friendly nations in Europe. Russia being number one right now (which I think plays a part in its current economic growth). Germany is also becoming more Bible friendly currently.

And yes you obviously don't know a lot about Canada. Few Americans realize that Alberta contains more oil than all of Saudi Arabia and is also produces more uranium than any province in Canada (which produces more than 2x the amount of uranium of any country). Ontario receives equalization payments and is deeply in debt. Alberta is debt free and has an annual surplus of around 9 billion this year after federal tax for only 3 million people. America would have been better off invading Alberta because its much closer and better.

Napoleon was not outmanuevered, he was overwhelmed by numbers in the end. He never really had a chance.

And once again, I can easily argue that Judaism is the oldest religion in the world. There is as much evidence of this as there is of others coming first.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Napoleon was not outmanuevered, he was overwhelmed by numbers in the end. He never really had a chance.

One could say the numbers were always against him, and that the defeats commonly seen as putting an end to his campaigns as being due to the tactics of his opponents. If he had won at Waterloo...

And once again, I can easily argue that Judaism is the oldest religion in the world. There is as much evidence of this as there is of others coming first.

Oldest continued religion perhaps, there were religions around long before the Jews penned the Old Testament (such as the tribal religions in Africa or even certain Mesopotamian ones.) And to be fair being the oldest hasn't exactly done them many favors.

Originally posted by Nellinator
We see things differently. However, I did not mean present my opinion as fact. I do believe that God has a hand in the prosperity of a nation.
And I feel liking poking some holes in your knowledge just for fun.

Italy is not the most Christian country in Europe. It has less Christians attending church than Muslims attending mosques. Just because it is steeped in Catholic tradition and history does not mean it is Christian. In fact, I consider Italy one of the most Godless nations of Europe. Britain actually is one of the most Bible friendly nations in Europe. Russia being number one right now (which I think plays a part in its current economic growth). Germany is also becoming more Bible friendly currently.

And yes you obviously don't know a lot about Canada. Few Americans realize that Alberta contains more oil than all of Saudi Arabia and is also produces more uranium than any province in Canada (which produces more than 2x the amount of uranium of any country). Ontario receives equalization payments and is deeply in debt. Alberta is debt free and has an annual surplus of around 9 billion this year after federal tax for only 3 million people. America would have been better off invading Alberta because its much closer and better.

Napoleon was not outmanuevered, he was overwhelmed by numbers in the end. He never really had a chance.

And once again, I can easily argue that Judaism is the oldest religion in the world. There is as much evidence of this as there is of others coming first.

Older than the Sumerian and Egyptian religions? Nah. What are these evidence that Judaism is OLDEST religion there is?

Archaeological and cultural. The book of Job is dated by many to before 3600BC because of its style of language and cultural references. Of course, this is difficult to see in the English translation, but it is not so hard in the original Hebrew. Abraham undoubtedly existed and since the Hebrews and Jews are well known for their immaculate genealogies it is safe to assume that he knew the people from which he descended and also that he inherited their religion and faith.