Anti Moniter vs. Dark Pheonix

Started by nvrbeenwthagirl24 pages
nvrbeenwthagirl Restricted

Originally posted by bigbran
Does being a bad guy mean nothing to you?
And the fact that you hate beyonder, kind of makes your opinion invalid.
And the insults are uncalled for when people don't agree with you.

And Anti-Moniter 12/10

Being bad doesn't bother me sometimes. We need someone bad every now and then to keep the action going. could you imagine surfer with no thanos? or Superman with no Darksied? Any way, I hate alot of characters. Ihate wolverine more than any. But I"m not going to say something dumb like Gambit can beat Wolverine, Even tho i like gambit waaaaay better. I'm not insulting because people dont agree with me. I'm insulting cuz they keep spouting the same damn stuff over and over about what was said about the beyonder, and what abstracts supposedly feared. and no one is showing me things the beyonder did that mxy has not. but yet they keep claiming that the beyonder is stronger than mxy. That is why i'm insulting. SHOW me damn. don't just tell me. I want to see a scan of the beyonder doing something that mxy cannot do.

bigbran Dead

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Being bad doesn't bother me sometimes. We need someone bad every now and then to keep the action going. could you imagine surfer with no thanos? or Superman with no Darksied? Any way, I hate alot of characters. Ihate wolverine more than any. But I"m not going to say something dumb like Gambit can beat Wolverine, Even tho i like gambit waaaaay better. I'm not insulting because people dont agree with me. I'm insulting cuz they keep spouting the same damn stuff over and over about what was said about the beyonder, and what abstracts supposedly feared. and no one is showing me things the beyonder did that mxy has not. but yet they keep claiming that the beyonder is stronger than mxy. That is why i'm insulting. SHOW me damn. don't just tell me. I want to see a scan of the beyonder doing something that mxy cannot do.
He was around for less than 2 years, and him being a bad guy, they wouldn't have him destroying the multiverse.
No one likes wolverine, I'm fair for every character too.

WhiteWitchKing Senior Member

Originally posted by Creshosk
[B]Other than common sense?

It's bordering on PIS or something because it is really stupid to claim that something that is harmless to people killed a person. It's like saying Radio waves killed a person... It's really utterly stupid.

Electro magnetic energy is harmless. And repeating back to me that "that's what he said" further's my beleif that there was something that the character didn't know about. Cause characters are frequently wrong in comic books.

Wrong about what? The point is Magneto killed her. Did Jean say something that make you believe it was more than just Magneto? The only thing different was Magneto was taking "Kick" which turned out to be the smart bacteria. Maggie was out of it and so wasn't really himself.


Now, this being that can take the energy of a star exploding (ehich indludes Electromagnetic energy, and ultraviolet radiation and a whole bunch of other energies... Is killed by an EMPulse?

No I'm sorry that's as beleivable as Spiderman beating Firelord, or wolverine surviving a Nuke. It goes against previously established canon, and is stupid in every other sense.

Not if it's recurring and under different writers.

1] The Force was killed by an alien weapon during Phoenix saga
2] the Phoenix of the 31st century, Giraud, was punked by Dormammu in one shot, then Dormammu proceeded take an attack from Dr. Strange and killed Strange, who was channeling the power of Giraud, Firelord, Ghost Rider, and Starhawk
3] Thor absorbed it's power and directed it back knocking Rachel out
4] Mordred controlled Phoenix/Rachel to do his binding and help him free Chthon
5] Quasar stalemated Rachel and Mordred
6] The Force itself (no host at all) was drawn from the 616 and drained of it's powers by a sentient alien ship
7] Autumn Rose temporarily k.o.ed the host Amber Hunt
8] Again it gets drawn from Amber and into the ship to use as a battery & later saved when X-Men and Ultra Force destroyed the ship's computer
9] With both groups tired, they managed to drive the Phoenix Force back

That's nine instances (not counting Magneto's) that the Force or it's user gets taken down by less than cube being level power characters. You can bring up it's power level but their's a difference between offensive and defensive powers.


Little things here and there. Like the handbook scan you showed that talks about the infinite power, and how the phoenix force is associated with creation (Fantastic four big bang what have you) and being a life pool source of energy (galactus and phoenix claims)

Little things here and there. That's it. Nothing conclusive. Odin has been referred numerously as infinite in power as well and as has many other beings above him in power. And the FF instance, Reed says, "call it the big bang, OR the Phoenix Force, OR WHATEVER HAVE YOU." You'ved dismissed Watcher's claims as I have but how relevant is Reed on this subject? Has he seen for himself the Force create the universe? Or heard this from an authority other than the Watcher? What should be noted is that he later goes onto make the big bang.


Has to start somewhere right? And if this thing is responsible for recreating a dead universe is it so unbelievable for this thing to be responsible for creating it in the first place? I mean what started the first one? the spark of creation wasn't refered to as the phoenix force, since the phoenix force is just a name given to a preexisting thing by Jean grey I think it was back around issue 101 . . . Before that what would you call the phoenix force?

So what does this have anything to do with the Phoenix Force? Everything shown refers to the 616 universe's beginning and even then I'm not certain that it's responsible for 616 (Marvel's site leaves 616's creation as "unknown"😉. There's nothing referring to it being responsible for the multiverse or the beginning this cycle...if there's any abstracts or the LT or bios that state the Phoenix Force being responsible for this I'd love to see it.

Of course there had to be a beginning but who says that beginning was due to the Phoenix Force? The Force has been referrenced as "the spark of creation," not the other way around. Not every spark of creation is the Phoenix Force. Genis sparked creation as well but PF was nowhere around. And as Reed said it, "call it the big bang, the Phoenix Force, or WHATEVER HAVE YOU." Why don't we call it the "Reed's Yearning To Understand."

Again there's no proof the PF is the creator of the multiverse or TOAA's power.


As I said the phoenix force might be the name for the creative energy of TOAA given to it by either the sentience that was formed by Merlin I think it was or Jean grey.

LT said he served TOAA, the higher power. The Infinity Well confirmed this. Warlock admitted as much and so did Eternity. Kubik told Kosmos the same thing. There hasn't been any connections between TOAA and the PF. The only being that said so was the Watcher and all he said was that it was second to the Creator and this is still in regards to one universe. In Warsong, the Force and it's connection to existence is STILL in correlations with 1 Universe.

WhiteWitchKing Senior Member

IT really doesn't conflict if the energy source the sentience was created from is the creative energy pool from which the universe was (re)created along with the abstracts of a given universe... what (re)creates them when a universe (and the universal aspects with it) dies?

In the DC universe the Source is said to be this energy that makes up all beings. There's no energy source like that in Marvel. "Creative energy?" How many times has this been associated with either TOAA and the Phoenix Force? Like I've said in my earlier post, no abstract have said the PF is the power that fuels them or that she's greater than they are in power or that it is in any way connected to TOAA's power like LT is. When the universe dies, the PF sparks it again. Eternity never even made a big deal out of it when explainning the cycles of the universe to Jean. In fact Eternity's underlined importance was humanity's role and the abstracts reponsibility for life in the universe and man kind. The PF is no more important or powerful then Chaos and Order.


If Galan/galactus is the only carry over, the other aspectys would have to be recreated right?

And this is the problem with the saying the Phoenix Force is responsible for the abstracts creation. There's no information of what happens between the end and the beginning of a cycle. Prosh says the abstracts survives the universe's destruction. Eternity later never even says that the Phoenix Force has a hand in their creation or recreation. Even Galactus is the survivor due to Eternity, not the PF. I've seen on panel Eternity saving Galactus. I'd like to see scans of PF saving Galactus.

Even Marvel's own site says the existence of the universe is a mystery. There's nothing but speculation on the matter. And recreation isn't the word I'd use. If the concepts of life, death, order, ressurrection, have been already established, then the Force would be sparking the energies of the old universe to expand out. Eventually stars and planets form again, solar system, galaxies, and a universe is formed again. These concepts have been again act as they do. Life forms eventually come into being, life forms eventually die. Things in order come into a chaotic state.

I don't buy the idea that the Phoenix Force's spark of a big bang results instanteously in the formation of an entire universe with planets, stars, and galaxies. Nor do I buy the idea that the PF created concepts such as life, death, ressurection, oblivion, creation, i.e., the very laws by which energy should act or how death comes with life. It's not TOAA nor has it been said to be connected to TOAA. The universe or multiverse, it's concepts, and laws of physics/existence/void had to come from somewhere, but it's not the PF.


Now think about it in terms of there being the two phoenix forces... the sentience, and a seperate source of energy.

I'm not going to place the Phoenix force that's a source of energy into a hiearchy... cause that'd be like putting optic blasts or cosmic rays or something into a hierarchy of power... rather a silly thing to do.

I don't know what source your talking about. The only source I know of is the "lifeforce yetborn." Even then it's not clear as to what lifeforce this is referring too. Is it the universe's life force the stars by which is the source of energy for lifeforms on planets? Or the life force of the universe including the abstracts?


The sentience I haven't seen as being all that... higher than a hungry galactus since it did stalemate him when Rachel was a host for it. other than that we saw the White Crown Avatar doing some maintainence work on 616... But it mostly roams around.

Which goes against the galactus story doesn't it?

A rose by any other name... Jean called it the phoenix force... *shrugs* as I said there is some confusion because of the name.

And there's the problem with the Phoenix Force. It's been related to so many things that there's no definative answer to where it is in the hierarchy. When someone like the LT or Eternity or a credible source says what the Force is, speculation is all there is.


This might be the sentience. Seperate from the actual power.

So if the phoenix force recreates a universe and isn't a source of creation what is it? [/B]

And thus continues the many problems of the PF. If this Force is so powerful and important, you'd think the Force would be acknowledged times over by the abstracts and LT. I'd expect Marvel site's and bio to say the same thing, but it doesn't.

Tassadar Executor

Anti-Moniter.

Basti0n Restricted

lol for the love of god you people are pathetic, you have such a problem with phoenix being made into such a powerfull being you have to create a 14 page hate thread on the subject.

They made her uber-powerfull, get over it. its a comic book character, go out and get laid, I promise you it will take your mind off of it.

Mordum Senior Member

think about this in the bio it says the phoenix resides in the core of creation what does that tell you?!?@!@ If what you saw was phoenix holding a universe in her hands and fixing it plus the fact there were like hundreds of other avatars in there. Im sure collectively they equate to something pretty powerful.

Basti0n Restricted

How about this?

If she opens her legs does she shoot fire out of her ****?

Mordum Senior Member

Nope thats lindsay lohan aka fire crotch

Basti0n Restricted

What of she tried to breastfeed a baby? wouldn't it just burst into flames?

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Wrong about what? The point is Magneto killed her. Did Jean say something that make you believe it was more than just Magneto?
Logic and common sense do.
Come on man, how many times do I have to say it?
We bombard brains with electormagnetic energy everyday. And no one has ever died from that. So how can you possibly believe me to accept that it was just Magneto if all he says it wa was an EMP?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The only thing different was Magneto was taking "Kick" which turned out to be the smart bacteria. Maggie was out of it and so wasn't really himself.
And that still doesn't explain how a harmless energy can suddenly be deadly.
It's like saying you killed her because you shone normal white light on her without saying it was focused or anything.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Not if it's recurring and under different writers.
But it hasn't. the lethal EMP happened once under one writer.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
1] The Force was killed by an alien weapon during Phoenix saga
By her choice. This one should be blindingly obvious that it was her choice. Because she triggered the damned thing. AFTER absorbing a star.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
2] the Phoenix of the 31st century, Giraud, was punked by Dormammu in one shot, then Dormammu proceeded take an attack from Dr. Strange and killed Strange, who was channeling the power of Giraud, Firelord, Ghost Rider, and Starhawk
Which would again be phoenix energy involved in killing of a phoenix.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
3] Thor absorbed it's power and directed it back knocking Rachel out
Rachael isn't the most powerful host, and again, phoenix energy used against a Phoenix.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
4] Mordred controlled Phoenix/Rachel to do his binding and help him free Chthon
Again, Racheael isn't the most powerful host.
And what does this have to do with injuring a phoenix?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
5] Quasar stalemated Rachel and Mordred
Wow again... You are really grasping at straws now.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
6] The Force itself (no host at all) was drawn from the 616 and drained of it's powers by a sentient alien ship
That was as I said the sentient embodiment.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
7] Autumn Rose temporarily k.o.ed the host Amber Hunt
Yeah the host... And? IS amber the most powerful of the hosts/avatars?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
8] Again it gets drawn from Amber and into the ship to use as a battery & later saved when X-Men and Ultra Force destroyed the ship's computer
Yeah again Alien technology, not a harmeless energy
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
9] With both groups tired, they managed to drive the Phoenix Force back
And?
You still expect me to beleive that a harmless form of energy can harm someone?
Please you are really struggling to keep your argument afloat, but you still have not addressed the issue of "How does a harmless form of energy that we use everyday harm someone? Especially someone who has absorbed a star, a prominent source of this particular type of energy?"
Until you can answer that you really have no argument with the Xornetto thing.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
That's nine instances (not counting Magneto's) that the Force or it's user gets taken down by less than cube being level power characters.
And Magneto has never been on cube level and some of those you were really reaching. And some of them it was its own energy, or an alien energy or some other nonstandard form of energy.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
You can bring up it's power level but their's a difference between offensive and defensive powers.
Yeah, I guess that makes my defensive capabilites and thousands of other people greater than a cosmic entity doesn't it?
And since it resisted Galactus's attacks that means so too can I and thousands of others...
All because I've had my brain bombarded with EM energy and didn't even notice until they told me it was over...
Yeah, your argument is still horrendously flawed since using its logic I arrive at that conclusion.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Little things here and there. That's it.
Like your nine instances above?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Nothing conclusive.
Oh so we should throw out some of the scans you've been using, like the mention of the infinite power.. which means you have no evidence backing for the ultraverse events to even be cannon?
Which means you have much less than nine in the above, which means that the majority of phoenix injuries is based on phoenix energy being used.
I like that argument. 🙄
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Odin has been referred numerously as infinite in power as well and as has many other beings above him in power. And the FF instance, Reed says, "call it the big bang, OR the Phoenix Force, OR WHATEVER HAVE YOU."
And? That's part of my point. Even if it's called by a different name but it does the same thing, looks like the same thing, and basically is the same thing in all but name, who are you to say its not the same thing, just being called something different by different people?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
You'ved dismissed Watcher's claims as I have but how relevant is Reed on this subject?
So you're going to toss out anything by Reed? And anything that reed has been involved with as far as the creation of the universe goes?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Has he seen for himself the Force create the universe? Or heard this from an authority other than the Watcher? What should be noted is that he later goes onto make the big bang.
"but how relevant is Reed on this subject?"
So if he knows nothing on the subject . . . how did he get there to see the big bang in the first place?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So what does this have anything to do with the Phoenix Force?
I ask you what the phoenix force was called before Jean refered to it as the phoenix force, and you ask me what it has to do with the phoenix force?
Umm... What?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Everything shown refers to the 616 universe's beginning and even then I'm not certain that it's responsible for 616 (Marvel's site leaves 616's creation as "unknown"😉. There's nothing referring to it being responsible for the multiverse or the beginning this cycle...if there's any abstracts or the LT or bios that state the Phoenix Force being responsible for this I'd love to see it.
You haven't been listening to me have you?
Jean was the first to call it the phoenix force. What was it refered to before she called it that?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Of course there had to be a beginning but who says that beginning was due to the Phoenix Force?
There is certainly a consistency. You seem to be adamant on retaining the confusion and not interested at all in arriving at a conclusion that is valid and consistent with all the data we have up to this point. You also seem to subjectivly choose what information you listen to in a single source of evidence.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The Force has been referrenced as "the spark of creation," not the other way around.
So A equals B but B does not equal A?
Yeah that's logical.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Not every spark of creation is the Phoenix Force. Genis sparked creation as well but PF was nowhere around. And as Reed said it, "call it the big bang, the Phoenix Force, or WHATEVER HAVE YOU." Why don't we call it the "Reed's Yearning To Understand."
Because I'm insistant that phoenix force is also just a name sometimes used to refer to the creative spark or what have you. And changing the name doesn't change anything else. As Reed said. But what does Reed know about the matter?

The spark of creation has always been there when cration is sparked off. Sometimes its refered to as the phoenix force. Sometimes its refered to other things. But does changing its name change what it is?

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Again there's no proof the PF is the creator of the multiverse or TOAA's power.
Only if you're unobservant and or intentionally obtuse to the issue.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
LT said he served TOAA, the higher power. The Infinity Well confirmed this. Warlock admitted as much and so did Eternity. Kubik told Kosmos the same thing. There hasn't been any connections between TOAA and the PF. The only being that said so was the Watcher and all he said was that it was second to the Creator and this is still in regards to one universe. In Warsong, the Force and it's connection to existence is STILL in correlations with 1 Universe.
Again, only if you're being deliberatly obtuse on the issue.
In Japan they call a cat a neko. in Spanish its a gatto. in French it's Chat.
Does changing the name change the nature of the beast? Only if you're intentionally obtuse.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
In the DC universe the Source is said to be this energy that makes up all beings. There's no energy source like that in Marvel.
Yeah cause whenever anyone first gains the phoenix power they never talk about being one with everything.

Also if there's no energy source for creation to draw from, how can there be anything to power it? if there's nothing to fuel a power how can there be a power of creation then?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
"Creative energy?" How many times has this been associated with either TOAA and the Phoenix Force?
More times than you'd care to admit.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Like I've said in my earlier post, no abstract have said the PF is the power that fuels them or that she's greater than they are in power or that it is in any way connected to TOAA's power like LT is.
of course not. JEan has a pet nickname for one of TOAA's body parts, why would any of the other abstracts refer to the same body part as that name?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
When the universe dies, the PF sparks it again.quote] Or the ressurection force... Different strokes for different folks.
[QUOTE=7182621]Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Eternity never even made a big deal out of it when explainning the cycles of the universe to Jean.quote] Jean is the one who first used the term Phoenix Force. Why would Eternity explain or use a name that Jean came up with?
[QUOTE=7182621]Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
In fact Eternity's underlined importance was humanity's role and the abstracts reponsibility for life in the universe and man kind. The PF is no more important or powerful then Chaos and Order.
In your obtuse little veiw I can see how that could be valid...
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And this is the problem with the saying the Phoenix Force is responsible for the abstracts creation. There's no information of what happens between the end and the beginning of a cycle. Prosh says the abstracts survives the universe's destruction. Eternity later never even says that the Phoenix Force has a hand in their creation or recreation. Even Galactus is the survivor due to Eternity, not the PF. I've seen on panel Eternity saving Galactus. I'd like to see scans of PF saving Galactus. quote] You know I'm just going to be repeating myself a bunch through this pointing out the existence of Synonyms, nicknames and asking why someone else would use a nickname that someone else came up with. And you still haven't disloged this theory.
[QUOTE=7182621]Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Even Marvel's own site says the existence of the universe is a mystery. There's nothing but speculation on the matter. And recreation isn't the word I'd use. If the concepts of life, death, order, ressurrection, have been already established, then the Force would be sparking the energies of the old universe to expand out. Eventually stars and planets form again, solar system, galaxies, and a universe is formed again. These concepts have been again act as they do. Life forms eventually come into being, life forms eventually die. Things in order come into a chaotic state.
And Marvel's own site once mentioned captain america running at something like 75 mph... They've put up a bit of a wiki on their site for the fans to maintain. No telling how frequently its checked by any of the people who work for marvel.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I don't buy the idea that the Phoenix Force's spark of a big bang results instanteously in the formation of an entire universe with planets, stars, and galaxies.quote] The messurment of the passage of time is a fairly man made thing...

So you don't like the idea of refering to the big bang as the Phoenix Force?[QUOTE=7182621]Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Nor do I buy the idea that the PF created concepts such as life, death, ressurection, oblivion, creation, i.e., the very laws by which energy should act or how death comes with life. It's not TOAA nor has it been said to be connected to TOAA. The universe or multiverse, it's concepts, and laws of physics/existence/void had to come from somewhere, but it's not the PF.

I have no idea how many times you've said this, and I have no idea how many times I've responded to this with the same thing that I usually say.

But I'll say this again: a Rose by anyother name...

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I don't know what source your talking about. The only source I know of is the "lifeforce yetborn." Even then it's not clear as to what lifeforce this is referring too. Is it the universe's life force the stars by which is the source of energy for lifeforms on planets? Or the life force of the universe including the abstracts?
So until you can tell me concretly what it is, can you concretly tell me everything that it's not?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And there's the problem with the Phoenix Force. It's been related to so many things that there's no definative answer to where it is in the hierarchy.
Hence my insistence that the phoenix force has been a name given to things other than a sentient character
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
When someone like the LT or Eternity or a credible source says what the Force is, speculation is all there is.
And if speculation is all we have then isn't all you have against it just speculation as well?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And thus continues the many problems of the PF.quote] Which so far have all been the same problem:
"A rose by any other name..."[QUOTE=7182621]Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
If this Force is so powerful and important, you'd think the Force would be acknowledged times over by the abstracts and LT. I'd expect Marvel site's and bio to say the same thing, but it doesn't.
Unless they feel it's a given. Humans don't alway talk about blood. But you can't tell me that blood isn't important to a human.

Basti0n Restricted

If she sucked a guy off, with all the fire wouldnt it just be like smoking a cigar for her?

WhiteWitchKing Senior Member
Originally posted by Creshosk
[B]Logic and common sense do.
Come on man, how many times do I have to say it?
We bombard brains with electormagnetic energy everyday. And no one has ever died from that. So how can you possibly believe me to accept that it was just Magneto if all he says it wa was an EMP? And that still doesn't explain how a harmless energy can suddenly be deadly.
It's like saying you killed her because you shone normal white light on her without saying it was focused or anything. But it hasn't. the lethal EMP happened once under one writer.

Then care to point to me who did it? It was Magneto's own power. He called it EMP. What do you want from me? She died. Keep calling it PIS if you want but she died under because of Magneto. If there's anything more than was involved. Enlightment me with proof.

Bastion brings up Anti-Monitor's losses against the heroes and I responsided. This isn't about just Magneto killing her or harmless energy. My points are that it isn't all powerful or unkillable so let's not try and stick this to just Magneto and how he killed her.


By her choice. This one should be blindingly obvious that it was her choice. Because she triggered the damned thing. AFTER absorbing a star.

By choice also by Jean's desire as stated in X-Men Forever 3. Meaning it can is vulnerable to control and gives into emotions. Not all powerful or unstoppable as portrayed by many on this board.

Which would again be phoenix energy involved in killing of a phoenix.

Giraud? He didn't need Giraud's energy to beat him with one hand. Where's this Phoenix getting killed coming from?


Rachael isn't the most powerful host, and again, phoenix energy used against a Phoenix. Again, Racheael isn't the most powerful host.
And what does this have to do with injuring a phoenix?

It has to do with Phoenix host not all powerful as people claim it is. It's great to bring up Rachel beating a hungry Galactus but this comes up and your like what does it have to do with injuring a Phoenix?


Wow again... You are really grasping at straws now.

How is it grasping at straws again? Rachel beating a hungry Galactus is brought as a feat but Quasar managing to stalemate Mordred and Rachel shouldn't? I get it. Let's show all the glory and ignore the downfall.


That was as I said the sentient embodiment.

Getting handled.

And? IS amber the most powerful of the hosts/avatars? Yeah again

Other than being a previous host to another powerful being known as the Entity? As for the most powerful host/avatar, Jean died only I don't know...about 150 years. 🙄

Alien technology, not a harmeless energyAnd?

😆 Are you kidding me? What happened to the Phoenix beating Galactus? Ignore Magneto putting it's top host into a grave for 150 years. An alien technology not even comparable to Galactus or the Celestials ships ripping the Phoenix Force and abusing it, let's ignore that as well. X-Men and Ultra Force cleaned through the ships defenses and destroyed it's computer to free the Force.


You still expect me to beleive that a harmless form of energy can harm someone?
Please you are really struggling to keep your argument afloat, but you still have not addressed the issue of "How does a harmless form of energy that we use everyday harm someone? Especially someone who has absorbed a star, a prominent source of this particular type of energy?"

I don't expect anything from you. All this focus on one event when I gave you numerous examples of it's host getting knocked around by beings with lesser power than the Force. Maybe you can tell me how magnestism can liquidfy the strongest metal on Earth. Would you like to explain that? Magnetism liquidfying metal in seconds. Now there's a revolutionary technique. Again if you don't believe it's EMP, then explain it to Logan, Scott, Emma, Beast, and Jean who died for 150 years. By the way, Cassandra Nova managed to "unplug the Crown" from Jean Grey. The most experience host of the PF gets it's connect to the Force. Explain that.


Until you can answer that you really have no argument with the Xornetto thing. And Magneto has never been on cube level and some of those you were really reaching.

Reaching what? None of those were cube level in power at all. How's it reaching again? Good feats for Phoenix counts but bad ones don't?


And some of them it was its own energy, or an alien energy or some other nonstandard form of energy.Yeah, I guess that makes my defensive capabilites and thousands of other people greater than a cosmic entity doesn't it?

Where are you going with this? When your power is enough to beat Spectre and absorb a universe then yeah, I would consider you to be able to harm an cosmic entity that's lost/stalemated by beings lesser than a cube being. Alien ship? The same one both Ultra Force and X-Men went through and destroyed to save the PF? It's own energy? You mean when Dormammu did under his own power? Or is it when Mordred controlled the host to do his bidding? Last I checked Quasar's quantum energy has nothing to do with the Phoenix.


And since it resisted Galactus's attacks that means so too can I and thousands of others...

Thousands of others? Thousands WHO? 🙄 As for Galactus, a weaken Galactus is still the size of a small skycaper. Should I be surprise that a smaller and more agile being would be hard for him to hit? And this resist part? When did that happen? I've seen his beams missing her alot of the times. How many times has she taken shots from him again?


All because I've had my brain bombarded with EM energy and didn't even notice until they told me it was over...
Yeah, your argument is still horrendously flawed since using its logic I arrive at that conclusion. Like your nine instances above?

Maybe you should take it up Grant Morrison and tell him that never happened and EMP is harmless. Then you can ask him if there was more then just EMP involved or if there's another reason why Jean was grasping her chest and stuttering, "Jgg Jgg." Magneto is six feet under with his head servered by Logan because of this harmless EMP.


Oh so we should throw out some of the scans you've been using, like the mention of the infinite power..

Throw what out? Whose grasping at straws again? Infinite power is used for a lot of characters in comics. Should I explain how comic books work as well? Galactus has infinite power, Eon has infinite power, so does skyfathers, cube being beings, elder gods, hell lords, and even heralds have been classified as such. It saying someone has "infinite power" qualifies why again? Maybe we should look at those power bars to gauge their abilities as well.

which means you have no evidence backing for the ultraverse events to even be cannon?

No evidence? Where did I dismiss anything except pointing out to you that "infinite power" has to given to Odin and beings above him.

As for canon, the ultraverse was inside the Marvel multiverse. Whizzer of Squadron Supreme referred to the Ultraverse as a "previously unknown universe" to Beast. Also Juggernaut got beaten up by Onslaught, is teleported to another realm, runs into Sienna battling Reaper which opens a dimensional rift (due to Amber & Sienna), they end up in the Ultraverse, Cain teams up with Exile, X-Men & Ultra Force fight to stop Amber with PF, Reaper sends Cain back but doesn't reach 616, Psylocke helps him and Juggy smashes through the dimensional wall, runs into Onslaught and gets his gem ripped out of him. Looks like canon to me. Ironically, Galacticstorm has used Ultra Force/Avengers to dimiss the power of the Infinity Gauntlet.

WhiteWitchKing Senior Member

And? That's part of my point. Even if it's called by a different name but it does the same thing, looks like the same thing, and basically is the same thing in all but name, who are you to say its not the same thing, just being called something different by different people?

There's two different things. The creation of the multiverse/first universe to begin the cycle and restarting of a previous universe. All references of spark the big bang has to referring to the current 616, not the very beginning. And whose the "child of the universe." Every spark of creation in the multiverse, past and present, all refer to the Phoenix Force? I didn't know Reed's understanding and Gensis' barrel is also the Phoenix Force in disguised. Kind of interesting how the creator of the universe is never acknowledged by the Tribunal and disrepected by Galactus.


So you're going to toss out anything by Reed? And anything that reed has been involved with as far as the creation of the universe goes?

Did I say that? I recall not. Reed knows how much about the PF and ran into it how many times again? He throws something out and all of sudden his statement should be taken as gospel? If he did know it was the Phoenix Force, why did he try to understand it's creation? Turns out he created the 616 as well. And I never said to toss it out. Your saying that. If anything I'm in doubt as to the reliability of Reed on the connection between PF and the creation.


So if he knows nothing on the subject . . . how did he get there to see the big bang in the first place?

Which one are you talking about? Which big bang? The one he created with that entity? Cause that happened way after.


I ask you what the phoenix force was called before Jean refered to it as the phoenix force, and you ask me what it has to do with the phoenix force?

Feron shaped the Force into the form of the Phoenix. Jean had nothing to do with it's naming.


You haven't been listening to me have you?
Jean was the first to call it the phoenix force. What was it refered to before she called it that?

Nope. The Shi'Ar, Feron, Necrom, and other's have referred to this Force as the Phoenix Force. It's the same force as when it first appeared to Jean during the shuttle, the same force taht appeared in the Ultraverse. Prosh, Stranger, and Eternity made no distinction between Phoenix Force and this sentient source.


There is certainly a consistency. You seem to be adamant on retaining the confusion and not interested at all in arriving at a conclusion that is valid and consistent with all the data we have up to this point. You also seem to subjectivly choose what information you listen to in a single source of evidence.

I'm not being subjective at all. Your missing points in your argument and the MU's creation.


So A equals B but B does not equal A?
Yeah that's logical.

So according to your "logic," since mutants are also humans, then humans must be mutants as well. Very logic indeed. Let me try another one. Doom is a genius, so all genius must be Dr. Doom as well.


Because I'm insistant that phoenix force is also just a name sometimes used to refer to the creative spark or what have you. And changing the name doesn't change anything else. As Reed said. But what does Reed know about the matter?

LOL. Didn't know Genis had the PF in his guns at all. Or should that be Entropy? Reed and Genesis was really the PF all along but under a different name. Less I forget the Infinity Being who's really just another name for the Phoenix Force, I mean spark of creation.


The spark of creation has always been there when cration is sparked off. Sometimes its refered to as the phoenix force. Sometimes its refered to other things. But does changing its name change what it is?

So as long as a being sparks of creation and makes a universe, it's really bringing forth the Phoenix Force.


Only if you're unobservant and or intentionally obtuse to the issue.

LOL. I guess totally missed an issue where the Tribunal said the PF is also a servant of TOAA and had his powers. I also checked every bio on the Marvel Universe, the Living Tribunal, Eternity, Death, Galactus, and even the Phoenix Force. Zero. That's the number of times TOAA has been linked to the Phoenix Force. The Force is as sepearate from TOAA as Eternity, Death, etc. is.


Again, only if you're being deliberatly obtuse on the issue.
In Japan they call a cat a neko. in Spanish its a gatto. in French it's Chat.
Does changing the name change the nature of the beast? Only if you're intentionally obtuse.

So it's a no than. I guess what your saying about the Phoenix Force being the spark of creation and creating the abstracts should be taken over other readers, bios on every cosmic being including the Phoenix Force, the abstracts, and the Tribunal. Even though all references so far indicate that it's part of the cycle and the creator. Keep saying obtuse but it's still not evidence that the PF created the abstracts and the multiverse.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Then care to point to me who did it? It was Magneto's own power. He called it EMP. What do you want from me? She died. Keep calling it PIS if you want but she died under because of Magneto. If there's anything more than was involved. Enlightment me with proof.
[ You want me to prove to you that MRIs are harmless...

How exactly do you want me to do that?

Like this?:
http://www.med.umich.edu/rad/preps/outpt/radmri.htm

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Bastion brings up Anti-Monitor's losses against the heroes and I responsided. This isn't about just Magneto killing her or harmless energy. My points are that it isn't all powerful or unkillable so let's not try and stick this to just Magneto and how he killed her.
But the example you are giving is invalid.

How did he klill her? EMP? Not good enough. It's like using Spiderman versus firelord in a spiderman argument. or an anti firelord argument.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
By choice also by Jean's desire as stated in X-Men Forever 3. Meaning it can is vulnerable to control and gives into emotions. Not all powerful or unstoppable as portrayed by many on this board.
And this shows that what you're trying to prove is irrealivent unless you have some strategy where Anti-monitor is going to manipulate Dark Phoenix's emotions...
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Giraud? He didn't need Giraud's energy to beat him with one hand. Where's this Phoenix getting killed coming from?
The inclusion of Giraud's energy she'd doubt onto the validity of this evidence as a stand alone of killing a phoenix... without phoenix energy...
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It has to do with Phoenix host not all powerful as people claim it is. It's great to bring up Rachel beating a hungry Galactus but this comes up and your like what does it have to do with injuring a Phoenix?
So you're just openly attacking a character that you know that another board member likes for nor reason other than some personal crusade against the character?

That be trolling.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
How is it grasping at straws again? Rachel beating a hungry Galactus is brought as a feat but Quasar managing to stalemate Mordred and Rachel shouldn't? I get it. Let's show all the glory and ignore the downfall.
As opposed to show all the downfall and none of the glory? You're as bad as the stubbornest fools in the Spiderman versus Wolverine thread who insist on showing nothing but the bad showings of the other character regardless of how feesable they are...

because its the same thing as showing nothing but the highest showings of your own character regardless of how stupid they are.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Getting handled.

Other than being a previous host to another powerful being known as the Entity? As for the most powerful host/avatar, Jean died only I don't know...about 150 years. 🙄

Id say the most powerful form was the white crown avatar... not the greensuited avatar...
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
😆 Are you kidding me? What happened to the Phoenix beating Galactus? Ignore Magneto putting it's top host into a grave for 150 years. An alien technology not even comparable to Galactus or the Celestials ships ripping the Phoenix Force and abusing it, let's ignore that as well. X-Men and Ultra Force cleaned through the ships defenses and destroyed it's computer to free the Force.
You decided to show these others in defense of continuity of the Magneto event.

I'm pointing out that they are so dissimilar that the magneto event is not justified by the inclusion of this evidence.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I don't expect anything from you. All this focus on one event when I gave you numerous examples of it's host getting knocked around by beings with lesser power than the Force.
None of which justify the one event that you are trying so hard to defend.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Maybe you can tell me how magnestism can liquidfy the strongest metal on Earth.
The bonds between the molecules are held together by an electromagnetic force. He should technicallyt be able to manipulate other maters as well. However that takes the focused concentration and continual pull that an EMP would fail to do. and again, you're still desperatly struggling to defend this one event.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Would you like to explain that? Magnetism liquidfying metal in seconds.
Metal is particularly suceptable to magnetic control.
The brain however not being made out of metal . . .
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Now there's a revolutionary technique. Again if you don't believe it's EMP,
Which its not.

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
then explain it to Logan, Scott, Emma, Beast, and Jean who died for 150 years.
Why should i? None of it could have been a simple EMP. Wolverine's wasn't. So get overyourself and drop the ivalid example.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
By the way, Cassandra Nova managed to "unplug the Crown" from Jean Grey.
Which has nothing to do with the magneto event. And is just a continued assulalt on this character. Get over yourself your crusade is going to accomplish nothing here. I already said Dark phoenix would lose this. and am and have been objecting to the one example that you are clinging onto like it was some life raft that would save you from drownding.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The most experience host of the PF gets it's connect to the Force. Explain that.
Don't have to. Get over yourself and dorop the red herrings, they are further invalidating your claims and doing nothing but damaging your credibility.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Reaching what? None of those were cube level in power at all. How's it reaching again? Good feats for Phoenix counts but bad ones don't?
No, the only thing I'm storngly objecting to is something that you are desperate to defend and are scrambling to use all kinds of irrealivent evidence to defend it.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Where are you going with this? When your power is enough to beat Spectre and absorb a universe then yeah, I would consider you to be able to harm an cosmic entity that's lost/stalemated by beings lesser than a cube being. Alien ship? The same one both Ultra Force and X-Men went through and destroyed to save the PF? It's own energy? You mean when Dormammu did under his own power? Or is it when Mordred controlled the host to do his bidding? Last I checked Quasar's quantum energy has nothing to do with the Phoenix.
And last I checked all this garbage is garbage because it doesn't deffend the magneto incident and has nothing to do with either than nor the topic at hand of a specific avatarial shell and it's doomed fight with the Antimonitor.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Thousands of others? Thousands WHO? 🙄
Thousands of other people who survived electro magnetic bombardment of their brains.

unless you don't think that there are thousands of patients in the world who have had MRIs?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
As for Galactus, a weaken Galactus is still the size of a small skycaper. Should I be surprise that a smaller and more agile being would be hard for him to hit? And this resist part? When did that happen? I've seen his beams missing her alot of the times. How many times has she taken shots from him again?
Once. She took a direct hit from him. Which means that since I and thousands of other people can survive attacks that phoenix cannot, that means that we must be able to survive a direct hit from him as well.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Maybe you should take it up Grant Morrison and tell him that never happened and EMP is harmless.
Or maybe I should take it up with the fans who clutch to it like it were real? Nobody needed to go up to the writers of the Spiderman vs Firelord comic to get fans to not use it as evidence. So I shouldn't have to go up to him to get fans to drop this bullshit.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Then you can ask him if there was more then just EMP involved or if there's another reason why Jean was grasping her chest and stuttering, "Jgg Jgg." Magneto is six feet under with his head servered by Logan because of this harmless EMP.
Throw what out? Whose grasping at straws again? Infinite power is used for a lot of characters in comics. Should I explain how comic books work as well? Galactus has infinite power, Eon has infinite power, so does skyfathers, cube being beings, elder gods, hell lords, and even heralds have been classified as such. It saying someone has "infinite power" qualifies why again? Maybe we should look at those power bars to gauge their abilities as well.
Selectivly chosing what information is to be listened to in a peiece of evidence invalidates your claim.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
No evidence? Where did I dismiss anything except pointing out to you that "infinite power" has to given to Odin and beings above him.
See above.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
As for canon, the ultraverse was inside the Marvel multiverse. Whizzer of Squadron Supreme referred to the Ultraverse as a "previously unknown universe" to Beast. Also Juggernaut got beaten up by Onslaught, is teleported to another realm, runs into Sienna battling Reaper which opens a dimensional rift (due to Amber & Sienna), they end up in the Ultraverse, Cain teams up with Exile, X-Men & Ultra Force fight to stop Amber with PF, Reaper sends Cain back but doesn't reach 616, Psylocke helps him and Juggy smashes through the dimensional wall, runs into Onslaught and gets his gem ripped out of him. Looks like canon to me.
of course it does, desperate fanboys always choose that which suits them and disregard the rest.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Ironically, Galacticstorm has used Ultra Force/Avengers to dimiss the power of the Infinity Gauntlet.
Take that up with him, not me.

Basti0n Restricted

If you had sex with Dark Phoenix, with all the fire wouldnt it be like putting your dick in a volcano?

Creshosk Senior Member

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
There's two different things. The creation of the multiverse/first universe to begin the cycle and restarting of a previous universe. All references of spark the big bang has to referring to the current 616, not the very beginning.
You mean the 616 universe is the one that started refering to it by that nickname?

Is it a coicidence that that's where jean caem from?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
And whose the "child of the universe." Every spark of creation in the multiverse, past and present, all refer to the Phoenix Force?
Jean would. Since she refered to the 616 one as the phoenix force... but that doesn't change what it was before she called it that now would it?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I didn't know Reed's understanding and Gensis' barrel is also the Phoenix Force in disguised.
Different name for it. coined by Jean.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Kind of interesting how the creator of the universe is never acknowledged by the Tribunal and disrepected by Galactus.
Interesting how they aren't Jean now isn't it?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Did I say that? I recall not.
your memory so bad you don't remember typing the words
"but how relevant is Reed on this subject?"

Its right up there.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Reed knows how much about the PF and ran into it how many times again? He throws something out and all of sudden his statement should be taken as gospel? If he did know it was the Phoenix Force, why did he try to understand it's creation?
So why would he point out that there are different names, if he knows less than you about the phoenix force? It's really hard to beleive that there'd be things that he didn't understand that either you or I would. This is the guy who found out about and got to the ultimate nullifier after all.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Turns out he created the 616 as well. And I never said to toss it out. Your saying that.
Then why would you even question how relevent Reed is if it was not an attempt to toss out his words?

Seems pretty suspicious to me.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
If anything I'm in doubt as to the reliability of Reed on the connection between PF and the creation.
And thus you wwant to toss it out.

Probably because you don't want to admit his words are pointing out that different people call the same event different things, which is my point in the first place.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Which one are you talking about? Which big bang? The one he created with that entity? Cause that happened way after.
Again you fail to grasp what reeds words meant. That or you don't want to admit to them.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Feron shaped the Force into the form of the Phoenix. Jean had nothing to do with it's naming.
He didn't call it "the phoenix force". he called it something like the phoenix. And so when it went to jean on that shuttle it was in the form of guess what? So guess what she'd call the sorce that the sentience came from?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Nope. The Shi'Ar, Feron,
Phoenix.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Necrom,
Phoenix.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
and other's have referred to this Force as the Phoenix Force. It's the same force as when it first appeared to Jean during the shuttle, the same force taht appeared in the Ultraverse. Prosh, Stranger, and Eternity made no distinction between Phoenix Force and this sentient source. /quote] The soruce isn't sentient, the bird thing is and it came from the source of energy which is also refered to as the phoenix force.

The point is that someone from within 616 called it the phoenix force first. so the beings that existed before it was named certainly wouldn't refer to it by a name that came later.

Unless you'd like to show me someone pre-616 reffering to it as the phoenix force...
[QUOTE=7187648]Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I'm not being subjective at all. Your missing points in your argument and the MU's creation.

Yeah you are. And denial doesn't make your subjectivity and more objective.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So according to your "logic," since mutants are also humans, then humans must be mutants as well.
Yes. And the celestials would agree.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Very logic indeed. Let me try another one. Doom is a genius, so all genius must be Dr. Doom as well.
That is an implies statement. A implies B but that doesn't mean that B is A.

The qualifier is the "A" in the sentence. he is A genius. not he is Genius.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
LOL. Didn't know Genis had the PF in his guns at all. Or should that be Entropy? Reed and Genesis was really the PF all along but under a different name. Less I forget the Infinity Being who's really just another name for the Phoenix Force, I mean spark of creation.
Now you're catching on... but now you have to realize the difference between the sentience that is the bird, and the source that it came from need to be seperated to avoid the confusion. Creation is creation no matter what you call it.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So as long as a being sparks of creation and makes a universe, it's really bringing forth the Phoenix Force.
It's using the phoenix force(the source/place that the sentience that the bird is came from.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
LOL. I guess totally missed an issue where the Tribunal said the PF is also a servant of TOAA and had his powers.
I don't know if you intentionally confused the sentience that is the bird and the source that it came from or if you're making a fool of yourself to try and make a point.
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I also checked every bio on the Marvel Universe, the Living Tribunal, Eternity, Death, Galactus, and even the Phoenix Force. Zero. That's the number of times TOAA has been linked to the Phoenix Force. The Force is as sepearate from TOAA as Eternity, Death, etc. is.
And you did it again. Are you pretending to have understood what I said, or did you get it, and try and make it sound stupid, but missing a connection somewhere you failed?
Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So it's a no than. I guess what your saying about the Phoenix Force being the spark of creation and creating the abstracts should be taken over other readers, bios on every cosmic being including the Phoenix Force, the abstracts, and the Tribunal. Even though all references so far indicate that it's part of the cycle and the creator. Keep saying obtuse but it's still not evidence that the PF created the abstracts and the multiverse.
Yeah you're still not getting it... and now I doubtr you're even trying. Typical.

Basti0n Restricted

LOL who even cares anymore? This is almost 15 pages of useless dribble now. Get a life, its just a couple of comic book characters. Its not the end of the world.

Go outside, discover what natural light feels like, There's something called sex you can have which I have the feeling youd like if you tried it.