Starcraft vs, Warhammer 40,000

Another thing - Total Annihilation, another not-thought-through "argument" of doan_m. Thirst thing, that eliminates Total Annihilation guys from this competition, is the fact, that they don't have any starfleet at all.

Next - single Pewee projectile has a power of 1 kiloton nuke? Yeah, sure. I don't know, where did you get that from, and I frankly don't care (even if it is an official fluff from Cavedog's webpage), but it's another bullshit, worthy all those "technical miracles" (miracles - literally) from WH40k.

I see, that you are, I beg you pardon, one of those guys, who can only mindlessly repeat, what they've heard, but cannot analyze it by themselves. That "1 kiloton nuke" is probably added only so it would sound cool, but is, in fact, one big bad joke. Pewee projectiles don't seem to have such power at all - and not because of the fact, that it is weakest ARM unit. Such projectile, when launched and exploded, has certain power of blow, that must be 'released' somewhere, in form of a strike wave. There is no other option. Projectile, that has a power of 1 kiloton nuke would cause a massive blow. And a whole bunch of them - bloody massive blow, decimating everything around. Does Pewee's weapon make such effect? No. Not at all. Nothing. Zero. Null.

So that "1 kiloton nuke" is one big lie, another bullshit today. Neither during the game, nor in the cinematics, Pewee does show anything, that would prove, it is a true. Like I said - that was said only to sound cool, nothing more.

Relevant Quote is as follows:

Originally posted by Galactic War: Week 3

Thrown into a frenzy of rage at the scream of thousands of billions of patternings perishing in a single blow, Coldfire's troops pressed their final charge, overwhelming the last of Gnug's battered and surprised troops, driving them into the ground with gigatons worth of explosive power.

Total Annihilation ground forces are pretty cool, but, in fact, primitive, making this whole vision of future warfare a bit out of the map. Such advanced civilization uses primitive a-bomb, although we today already know reactions producing more energy, than nuclear ones (the sun!).

Complete lack of starfleet (mentioned earlier), although battles are taking place on many planets (there are some kinda gateways, but this is not an explanation).

Aeroplanes can fly only up to 144 meters per second (fastest one), while the sound speed is 340 meters per seconds - they are slower than temporary aeroplanes (those from the old good planet Earth of today, are a few times faster than sound is).

Another thing, is that rapid development of aircraft and rocket weaponry caused the disappearance of battleships (naval) and big cannons. Those anachronisms still function in TA.

I'm also arrogant enough to suspect, that races of the universe made up by me (for my amateur SF writing) could engage WH40k universe races, at least a part of them. A bit.

Geeez, I didn't expect a reply.

Originally posted by doan_m
Considering what happened to Fenix, I’d say its strictly technological.

Nah. Those devices on the Zealot's arms focus his psionic energy into a blade. Probably there was a malfunction, when Fenix died, and it stopped focusing.
It's strange BTW, that Fenix still uses those devices. He is 397 years old, more even than Tassadar, and he should be on a higher Khala level.

Originally posted by doan_m
It is certainly unlikely it will penetrate a Marines armor considering that IIRC, its ceramite. 6 times stronger than steel if my memory is correct.

And it is penetrated by a primitive Ork axe. Sure. Blooody sure.
If such crude weaponry can kill Adeptus Astartes, then it can be done by technologically advanced hypersonic rifle.

Originally posted by doan_m
Again, this is making the assumption that firebats possess the same type of firepower that the Imperium has. Last I checked, 40k uses a material called Promethium to fuel their flamers(and vehicles). Something that is not present in Starcraft.

Firebats in StarCraft use plasma fuel. Try to compare.

Originally posted by doan_m
Yeah its listed as those things, but the power outputs of most of those weapons are very capable of outputting more energy than most modern day nukes are capable of.

And they are doing it without any signs, that it is true, such as strike wave. Miracles, people, miracles!

Originally posted by doan_m
Anyways here is some proof that the power of the ships(even beyond lances) are capable of going beyond nuclear firepower:

I've seen it. But I didn't see, with what were they firing. Laser? I'm not sure. It didn't look like a laser at all.
I believe, that they can fire projectiles of firepower beyond a nuke, but I thought that we were talking about the weakest ones.

Originally posted by doan_m
The Imperial Navy, lower end estimates put it at the very least, 200,000 ships(dedicated).

And they can send only a small parts of those ships at a time, because the Imperium is too huge. How many ships are there per planet? Because such UED could dispatch a shitload of them, as it seems from Episode V ending video. Like I said, that fleet over Char was only one third (bah, a part of that one third, because not all forces were there) of an expeditionary force. And that expeditionary force was a small part of whole UED fleet.

Originally posted by doan_m
And of course, how can you be sure that Yamato cannons would actually destroy the ship? Especially considering its adamantium hulls and its lance batteries to boot.

Adamantium is an alloy, that is most likely placed in not distant future. How it can sustain a hit from a weapon, that pulverizes (literally) entire ships, that are also made of fictional and bloody durable alloy (neosteel)?
In case of lances, if battle barge destroys ten battlecruisers with them, and ten surviving battlecruisers fire their Yamato Cannons, this whole firepower is useless anyway.

Originally posted by doan_m
Considering the sheer power of three cruisers, this is unsurprising. [/B]

It is surprising, that they can dispatch only single cruiser per one hulk, and thus have to send Terminators to board on it (not enough firepower). Unability to gather and send ships quickly? When one of Dominion posts on Dylar IV was attacked, they've sent an entire armada instantly, in matter of hours. And Imperium can send only one ship, and because of that we can play as Terminators in Space Hulk, table top or computer games.

Originally posted by doan_m
And what makes said person superior in the first place?

Evolution.

Originally posted by doan_m
The one in 40k, the power from which psykers derive there power from is a little(huge) extra-dimensional place called the warp.

Thought that Imperial psykers are something different than Chaos mages.

Originally posted by doan_m
Perhaps some of you might know this, but there was a time when 1 point in the BFG board game was supposed to translate to 610 gigatons worth of firepower.

Numbers, numbers, numbers... they all often appear to be a poor joke. Like that one I'm reminding, until we all die of boredom - about power armour, that is "virtually" invulnerable, and yet its owner can be killed by primitive axe, or crude ranged weapons, used by Orks, that do not seem to be much more powerful than machine guns used in WWII.

Guys from Blizzard do not use numbers at all. And I think they're right. I didn't use numbers, too, when I created the "lore" of my uni (that one I boasted about at the end of my last post), or at least did it very rarely.

Originally posted by doan_m
Fair enough. But mind you at the time time, there was a lot of ambiguity in the following statements that didn’t give a very good calcable timeframe as to how long it took in the novels.

What novels? Do you mean "Liberty's Crusade"? There was nothing about how long did it take, just how it looked like.
Another thing - as I saw in the ending video of Fire Warrior (that screen, which you've shown), to destroy the planet, Imperial ship just needs to shoot into one place, until she penetrates planet to the core, and then the planet explodes itself. If Protoss would have to do only this, they would also need only one ship per planet, and destroy it in a few minutes anyway.

Originally posted by doan_m
Since when?

Since always.
That's simple - if Terran WOULDN'T be able to survive it, then how would it be, that they are able to fight Protoss at all - and win (even if they suffer bigger casualties)? For example the Sons of Korhal, when they decided to stand in Protoss' way on Tarsonis. Why didn't Protoss just fry them?

Originally posted by doan_m
Based on what? I seriously doubt it “nullifies” the numbers of the IG either since those bastards also have the firepower to back up their numbers.

Bring in Ghosts, and they have no firepower at all. Bring in Medics, and they can't use that firepower, because the artillery is blind. Bring in Queens, and the infantry is massacred, because armour units just were too slow to maneuver quick enough, or just there are no armour units (Spawn Broodlings...). Bring in Defilers, and they have no tanks, because they've melted. Bring in Arbiters, and the tank crews can only watch, how the infantry is massacred without their aid. Et cetera, et cetera.

Originally posted by doan_m
If anything the nids are far more deadlier than the Zerg can ever hope to be. They have after all, successfully wiped out several galaxies before even arriving to the one in 40k.

What galaxies are you talking about? About such galaxies, where there were no races powerful enough to hold off the Tyranid? Destroying civilizations of e.g. contemporary technological level is not a great achievement for the Tyranid, as it is not a great achievement for the Zerg that they've incorporated Slothien into the Swarm.

Originally posted by doan_m
Starship Troopers(in some areas)

What areas?

Originally posted by doan_m
Ridiculous I know, and it leaves it open to all kind of glaring contradictions but most of the time when they keep producing crap like a galaxy destroying bomb, 1 kiloton pewees are extremely conservative in contrast 😛

That's right.
But lesser crap is still a crap.

Originally posted by doan_m
Again. In game calcs are meaningless.

Hold. Wait, wait, wait, hang on a second. First you base a considerable part of your arguments on calcs, tell me, how much energy can Imperial ships' shields repel, before they're gone, and how much more is plasteel (is that the name of that alloy?) durable than steel, and now you say, that they are meaningless? Make up your mind.

Originally posted by doan_m
Keep in mind that this stuff was from the cavedogs official website before they fell under into nothingness.

Remember, what I said? I said, that I don't care it, EVEN if it is an info from Cavedogs official website. We want a bit serious discussion, we don't use unserious phantasies as arguments.

Originally posted by doan_m
Knowledge of something that is capable of producing massive energy does not equate to the idea that we can replicate it.

Yes, but is equates, that we may find a way in not distant future.

Originally posted by doan_m
Take for example, the collision of two galaxies that happened a a while ago.

Incorrect analogy. We know more about reactions taking place on Sun anyway...

Originally posted by doan_m
Again, they do have starfleets but they usually don’t get seen in the game.

No? Where then?

Originally posted by doan_m
I will also bring up the fact that the narrator in that intro enforces the point that TA is far from primitive considering the “billions of world” figure that the guy brings up.

OK, then let's put it up another way - they are so bloody conservative, that they seem primitive, and are thus kinda unreal, when we remember, that all takes place in distant future.

Originally posted by doan_m
Considering that TA is not held by the same logistical restraints as modern earth, the means to create a naval aspect that is capable of holding grounds in the water would be a natural choice against a given enemy.

What are you talking about right now? Warfare, that we see in TA, is not much different that ours - they do have aeroplanes, and they do have battleships and other large vessels with grand cannons, as well as grand cannons on the land (Big Bertha). In our history such weaponry (great ships with great cannons) proved highly ineffective and huge ships were helpless against aeroplanes. The day of sinking the "Yamato" (7th April 1945) is a bright example of that fact. And guys in TA still do have ships, that are bloody expensive to build, and can be bloody easily sunk by a bunch (not too big one) of properly armed aeroplanes, without achieveing any satisfying war effects?

Originally posted by doan_m
And I’ve got a sci-verse in my own head

And I've got it not in my head only.

Originally posted by doan_m
Your point?

Sorry, just were getting cocky. I simply like my creation, with its lore and cultures of individual races (yet there is still much to "project" in this case). And I dream of a Dawn of War mod, where one of them (my favourite one) would be one of playable sides.
And I like to discuss with people about this whole sci-verse, because it helps me to find out, e.g. which ideas are good, and which are poor.

Nah. Those devices on the Zealot's arms focus his psionic energy into a blade. Probably there was a malfunction, when Fenix died, and it stopped focusing.
It's strange BTW, that Fenix still uses those devices. He is 397 years old, more even than Tassadar, and he should be on a higher Khala level.

Which is the reason why it’s mainly on the technological side.

And it is penetrated by a primitive Ork axe. Sure. Blooody sure.
If such crude weaponry can kill Adeptus Astartes, then it can be done by technologically advanced hypersonic rifle.

Funny thing about Orks. Their collective psychic abilities make them believe almost anything they want to believe. If they believe that painting a bunch of asteroids red will make a ship go into FTL. Then it freaking will. If they believe that scrapping together a bunch of junk makes a decent battle tank, then it will form a battle tank. If enough of em believes that there axes can penetrate Space Marine armor. Then yeah. It totally will(if it did in the first place) Its for this reason that the Imperium has to be thankful that the Orks are generally a bunch of dumbasses.
And if you are referencing the Dawn of War 1 intro with the Ork axe. Take a closer look. The Ork axe in question cleaved through the gaps in the marines armor. Not the armor itself.

Firebats in StarCraft use plasma fuel. Try to compare.

And they are doing it without any signs, that it is true, such as strike wave. Miracles, people, miracles!

I've seen it. But I didn't see, with what were they firing. Laser? I'm not sure. It didn't look like a laser at all.
I believe, that they can fire projectiles of firepower beyond a nuke, but I thought that we were talking about the weakest ones.

And they can send only a small parts of those ships at a time, because the Imperium is too huge.

How many ships are there per planet?

Because such UED could dispatch a shitload of them, as it seems from Episode V ending video.

Like I said, that fleet over Char was only one third (bah, a part of that one third, because not all forces were there) of an expeditionary force. And that expeditionary force was a small part of whole UED fleet.

Adamantium is an alloy, that is most likely placed in not distant future. How it can sustain a hit from a weapon, that pulverizes (literally) entire ships, that are also made of fictional and bloody durable alloy (neosteel)?

In case of lances, if battle barge destroys ten battlecruisers with them, and ten surviving battlecruisers fire their Yamato Cannons, this whole firepower is useless anyway.

It is surprising, that they can dispatch only single cruiser per one hulk, and thus have to send Terminators to board on it (not enough firepower).

Unability to gather and send ships quickly? When one of Dominion posts on Dylar IV was attacked, they've sent an entire armada instantly, in matter of hours.

And Imperium can send only one ship, and because of that we can play as Terminators in Space Hulk, table top or computer games.

Evolution.

Thought that Imperial psykers are something different than Chaos mages.

Numbers, numbers, numbers... they all often appear to be a poor joke. Like that one I'm reminding, until we all die of boredom –

about power armour, that is "virtually" invulnerable,

and yet its owner can be killed by primitive axe, or crude ranged weapons, used by Orks, that do not seem to be much more powerful than machine guns used in WWII.

Guys from Blizzard do not use numbers at all. And I think they're right. I didn't use numbers, too, when I created the "lore" of my uni (that one I boasted about at the end of my last post), or at least did it very rarely.

What novels? Do you mean "Liberty's Crusade"? There was nothing about how long did it take, just how it looked like.

Another thing - as I saw in the ending video of Fire Warrior (that screen, which you've shown), to destroy the planet, Imperial ship just needs to shoot into one place, until she penetrates planet to the core, and then the planet explodes itself.

If Protoss would have to do only this, they would also need only one ship per planet, and destroy it in a few minutes anyway.

Since always.
That's simple - if Terran WOULDN'T be able to survive it, then how would it be, that they are able to fight Protoss at all - and win (even if they suffer bigger casualties)? For example the Sons of Korhal, when they decided to stand in Protoss' way on Tarsonis. Why didn't Protoss just fry them?

Bring in Ghosts, and they have no firepower at all.

Bring in Medics, and they can't use that firepower, because the artillery is blind.

Bring in Queens, and the infantry is massacred, because armour units just were too slow to maneuver quick enough, or just there are no armour units (Spawn Broodlings...).

Bring in Defilers, and they have no tanks, because they've melted.

Bring in Arbiters, and the tank crews can only watch, how the infantry is massacred without their aid. Et cetera, et cetera.

What galaxies are you talking about? About such galaxies, where there were no races powerful enough to hold off the Tyranid?

Destroying civilizations of e.g. contemporary technological level is not a great achievement for the Tyranid, as it is not a great achievement for the Zerg that they've incorporated Slothien into the Swarm.

What areas?

That's right.
But lesser crap is still a crap.

Hold. Wait, wait, wait, hang on a second. First you base a considerable part of your arguments on calcs, tell me, how much energy can Imperial ships' shields repel, before they're gone, and how much more is plasteel (is that the name of that alloy?) durable than steel, and now you say, that they are meaningless? Make up your mind.

Remember, what I said? I said, that I don't care it, EVEN if it is an info from Cavedogs official website.

We want a bit serious discussion, we don't use unserious phantasies as arguments.

Yes, but is equates, that we may find a way in not distant future.

Incorrect analogy. We know more about reactions taking place on Sun anyway...

No? Where then?

OK, then let's put it up another way - they are so bloody conservative, that they seem primitive, and are thus kinda unreal, when we remember, that all takes place in distant future.

What are you talking about right now?

Warfare, that we see in TA, is not much different that ours - they do have aeroplanes, and they do have battleships and other large vessels with grand cannons, as well as grand cannons on the land (Big Bertha).

In our history such weaponry (great ships with great cannons) proved highly ineffective and huge ships were helpless against aeroplanes. The day of sinking the "Yamato" (7th April 1945) is a bright example of that fact. And guys in TA still do have ships, that are bloody expensive to build, and can be bloody easily sunk by a bunch (not too big one) of properly armed aeroplanes, without achieveing any satisfying war effects?

Originally posted by doan_m
Which is the reason why it’s mainly on the technological side.

Yeah. Then tell a human to use it. If it is MAINLY on technological side, the question of who the user is, should have little meaning.

Originally posted by doan_m
Funny thing about Orks. Their collective psychic abilities make them believe almost anything they want to believe.

Now, that sounds like a fairy tale, not Sci-Fi.

Originally posted by doan_m
Take a closer look. The Ork axe in question cleaved through the gaps in the marines armor. Not the armor itself.

Not in each case.

Originally posted by doan_m
What makes Starcrafts Plasma so special?

Why "StarCrafts" plasma? What is it with you that you have to stick it everywhere?
Plasma reaches high temperatures, thousands or even milions of degrees. No matter, where it appears, its devastating as a weapon.

Originally posted by doan_m
Promethium at the very least is capable of burning underwater.

Should that show the firepower of weapons using it? Well, M79 incinerating bomb, that B-29 Super Fortresses were throwing on Japan cities, could also burn underwater. Not because it was soooo powerful. Because it had oxidizer - it was impossible to extinguish its fire with water or sand.

Originally posted by doan_m
Xenos as well what with the mention of “continent sized fireballs”

That's cool, but what are those fireballs? Plasma? Fusion projectiles?

Originally posted by doan_m
Besides, its firepower makes for a huge ass force multiplier.

And don't allow it just to take out a hulk? Without guns? Without functioning shields? They'd only had to destroy its engines and that should be enough. Yet they send Terminators and tell them to re-direct the course of the hulk and dispatch it back to the warp.

Originally posted by doan_m
In contrast to 40k their war is extremely localized to a few star systems. Something that the Imperium could only dream about.

Entire sector is few planet systems to you? Not mentioning the distance between this sector and Earth.

Originally posted by doan_m
What makes neosteel as favorably comparable as Adamantium?

And what does NOT make it like that? Especially that everybody can imagine Adamantium's durability in different way? E.g. in my Sci-verse (sorry for mentioning it again, if you find it too arrogant) adamantium is already out-of-date, replaced by better and more durable alloys.

Originally posted by doan_m
With neosteel on the other hand, you see plenty of instances of it being hard hit what with Hydralisk spines being able to penetrate 2cm of it.

See above. What makes you so sure, that Hydralisk's spines wouldn't be able to penetrate through Adamantium, if it actually appeared in SC universe?

Originally posted by doan_m
Have Yamato Cannons ever demonstrated continent destroying firepower?

OK, then they'd have to shoot from many Yamato Guns at once. Not too good.

Originally posted by doan_m
And while that hulk can be considered a potential threat, its still relatively low priority in contrast to what is normally expected of 40k.

It is as serious threat, as any other. If they don't stop that hulk, they'd lose the planet for sure. Of course, they can call for exterminatus later, but they can do it anywhere else, when they lose battle on the ground.

Originally posted by doan_m
Which is to say nothing about how far the relevant response fleet was from the colony itself.

If that armada was led by Duke, it was surely dispatched from somewhere near the heart of the Dominion.

Originally posted by doan_m
And in the case of Space Hulk, they’d rather send the Marines to pull off that kind of boarding action rather than the Navy, who have got other things to do.

OK, now let's get this straight - they can dispatch a few ships, instead of one, only to destroy a hulk, suffer no casualties, and then send ships back to another tasks. Despite this, they waste bloody valuable troops (Terminators - there are only one hundred of them per chapter), that are only few and are horribly hard to replace, for... well, for what? Because "fleet has more important things to do"? Every time, when Terminators board hulk, even twenty or thirty of them may die. Let's just say, that there are several such hulks to dispatch at one time, and the whole Terminator troops are decimated quickly.
I think, that idea of one, tiny milion of such soldiers, even if they are super-soldiers (where, here's that "immense industrial power and manpower" of the Imperium - one milion of such guys is all, what they can dish out), for so giant Imperium, is one of greater nonsenses in WH40k. If there are battles being fought every day, those Space Marines would be decimated for sure, without an ability to replace fallen Adeptus Astartes quickly.

Originally posted by doan_m
And yet those numbers can’t be ignored. Doing so would mean that you just personally reject a piece of the fluff.

Because I don't accept everything, what people tell me. Especially when I'm trying to discuss on a certain topic. I love Kroot, but that idea is bloody nonsense. Kroot are primitive race, that live on a primitive civilization level, they even don't build modern cities (I heard something about huts made of animals' hides) and yet somehow they can create such miracles, that even we today don't know.

Originally posted by doan_m
And most guns used by Orks are from the Imperium by default which most of them are superior to WWII weapons.

In what way? Take that intro from DoW. And Ork, who killed the SM sergeant in the end, was firing from a machine gun, that was certainly not made by guys from Imperium. And looks, saying euphemistically, old-fashioned.

Originally posted by doan_m
So where did the instance of a Hydralisk spine penetrating 2cm of Neosteel come from?

From fan fiction.

Originally posted by doan_m
In the same time frame that, the single Battle Barge pulled off in the FW vid?

Yes. See "First Contact" fan movie.

Originally posted by doan_m
A ghost doesn’t automatically mean all cannons and weapons are silenced.

But if Baneblade and few Basilisks are down, it is a considerable lost for the IG on the battlefield.

Originally posted by doan_m
This is of course making the assumption that the air is not guarded against such attacks in the first place.

They'd have to be really quick then, if they are already attacked by entire Protoss force. Don't forget, too, that Arbiters can suffer condsiderable amount of damage. And that Protoss may always use Corsairs with their Disruption Web to make sure that he will suffer no damage at all.

Originally posted by doan_m
Zerg Swarm rushing you? High density lasgun fire and support weapons in tandem with vicious artillery barrages

Don't forget the fact, that Zerg - as Tyranid - attack in huge swarms. Terrans also have perfect weaponry for massacring them, and yet Zerg may simply overwhelm them with sheer numbers, no matter what equipment they use. Imperial Guard isn't in better situation. Worse yet - Guardsmen have ridiculous body armor, compared to that of Terran Marines, and they would be massacred much quicker, than them, should the Zerg reach their lines.

If someone placed Psi Emmiter on Imperium planet, they would be simply flooded. So fast, that they will barely manage to send a distress call.

Originally posted by doan_m
and Dominatrixes(yeah weird name I know).

Visit my topic on General Fiction Area, there you will find weird names 😛.

Originally posted by doan_m
Not caring about it does not allow you to omit the fact that it still is considered canon and therefore a part of the TA universe.

The fact, that it's considered canon, does not change the fact, that this is bullshit, added only to sound cool, not to make sense.

Originally posted by doan_m
Shall I also dismiss the Discworld series as non-canon mainly because of its comedy?

Now, what's that comparision? Discworld series is, as you said, comedy. Is Total Annihilation a comedy? No. Do we talk about comedies right now? No. Is this whole discussion a parody or kidding? No.

Originally posted by doan_m
“Millions of worlds” decimated in a war and multi gigaton figures for ground power is conservative and primitive to you?

If they use classes of battlefield units, that are out-of-date even now, in XXI century, and can't build aeroplanes, that would be at least a bit as fast, as ours? Yes. A bit.

Originally posted by doan_m
Not having to worry about supply lines and logistical flows (since it’s all in the base)

I don't know, what supply lines and logistical flows have in common with anachronism of using units, that are anachronic even today.

Originally posted by doan_m
And just because they possess naval assets does not equate to primitive.

And who did say here about naval assets as a whole? Certainly not me.

Yeah. Then tell a human to use it. If it is MAINLY on technological side, the question of who the user is, should have little meaning.

Now, that sounds like a fairy tale, not Sci-Fi.

Not in each case.

Why "StarCrafts" plasma? What is it with you that you have to stick it everywhere?
Plasma reaches high temperatures, thousands or even milions of degrees.

No matter, where it appears, it’s devastating as a weapon.

So is 40k “Plasma”.

Plasma in most fiction doesn’t even come close to functioning the way that it would work in the real world. The means of confining any plasma into something that could be weaponized, would be extremely difficult. I.e, if you try to contain about 0.01 grams worth of plasma in a 1cc volume, the pressure to contain it would have to be something at 700 gPa. Thousands of time stronger than the yield strength of high grade steel. Plasma is a lot less dense than air so odds are that when it does fire out of its casing, it will float up. Hell, even when it does fire out of its containment field the particles are going to be flying in all kinds of random directions and will be dissipated extremely quickly in the air.
Which is why when quantifying plasma, the only real means of quantification is to show what it is capable of in-universe since often time, “plasma” in science fiction tends to adopts its own properties that are quite very contrary to what is expected in real life.

Should that show the firepower of weapons using it?

Considering that promethium occurs naturally in 40k, than yeah. It’s also apparently capable of burning in space. It does have extremely high temperature but I understand if that’s not sufficient enough, so I’ll just point you to page 64 of Gaunts Ghost: First and Only where three men are incinerated (burnt to ashes) in nearly an instance. Promethium is also used as a fuel that helps achieve escape velocity from a planet’s surface in 40k. And the minimum amount of energy to do that with chemically based reactions takes about 60 megajoules per kilogram to escape a planet(our planet at least) gravity well.
In another instance, I.e. Caiphas Cain: Caves of Ice, a promethium refinery containing a few billions tons worth of that stuff of was detonated with a series of charges that caused a massive explosion that surpassed 2 gigatons worth of power (when considering that the shockwave reached a bit above the upper atmosphere.

That's cool, but what are those fireballs? Plasma? Fusion projectiles?

And don't allow it just to take out a hulk? Without guns? Without functioning shields? They'd only had to destroy its engines and that should be enough. Yet they send Terminators and tell them to re-direct the course of the hulk and dispatch it back to the warp.

And with Space Hulk it’s a different scenario. For one thing, you have the presence of genestealers in the ship. When there is a bunch of genestealers, theres also the Patriarch who while also being a powerful psyker, can also transmit act as a psychic beacon which draws the attention of other space faring tyranids to it. So naturally, personally going in there and finding the damn thing and killing it in person would certainly have to be an option that has to be taken, mainly because they really need to make sure that the very summoner of tyranid invasions have to be destroyed.

Entire sector is few planet systems to you?

And what does NOT make it like that?

See above. What makes you so sure, that Hydralisk's spines wouldn't be able to penetrate through Adamantium, if it actually appeared in SC universe?

OK, then they'd have to shoot from many Yamato Guns at once. Not too good.

It is as serious threat, as any other. If they don't stop that hulk, they'd lose the planet for sure. Of course, they can call for exterminatus later, but they can do it anywhere else, when they lose battle on the ground.

If that armada was led by Duke, it was surely dispatched from somewhere near the heart of the Dominion.

OK, now let's get this straight - they can dispatch a few ships, instead of one, only to destroy a hulk, suffer no casualties, and then send ships back to another tasks.

Despite this, they waste bloody valuable troops (Terminators - there are only one hundred of them per chapter),

that are only few and are horribly hard to replace, for... well, for what? Because "fleet has more important things to do"?

Every time, when Terminators board hulk, even twenty or thirty of them may die. Let's just say, that there are several such hulks to dispatch at one time, and the whole Terminator troops are decimated quickly.

I think, that idea of one, tiny milion of such soldiers, even if they are super-soldiers (where, here's that "immense industrial power and manpower" of the Imperium - one milion of such guys is all, what they can dish out),

for so giant Imperium, is one of greater nonsenses in WH40k.

If there are battles being fought every day, those Space Marines would be decimated for sure, without an ability to replace fallen Adeptus Astartes quickly.

Because I don't accept everything, what people tell me.

Especially when I'm trying to discuss on a certain topic. I love Kroot, but that idea is bloody nonsense. Kroot are primitive race, that live on a primitive civilization level, they even don't build modern cities (I heard something about huts made of animals' hides) and yet somehow they can create such miracles, that even we today don't know.

In what way? Take that intro from DoW. And Ork, who killed the SM sergeant in the end, was firing from a machine gun, that was certainly not made by guys from Imperium. And looks, saying euphemistically, old-fashioned.

From fan fiction.

Yes. See "First Contact" fan movie.

But if Baneblade and few Basilisks are down, it is a considerable lost for the IG on the battlefield.

They'd have to be really quick then, if they are already attacked by entire Protoss force. Don't forget, too, that Arbiters can suffer condsiderable amount of damage.

And that Protoss may always use Corsairs with their Disruption Web to make sure that he will suffer no damage at all.

Don't forget the fact that Zerg - as Tyranid - attack in huge swarms. Terrans also have perfect weaponry for massacring them, and yet Zerg may simply overwhelm them with sheer numbers, no matter what equipment they use.

Imperial Guard isn't in better situation. Worse yet - Guardsmen have ridiculous body armor, compared to that of Terran Marines, and they would be massacred much quicker, than them, should the Zerg reach their lines.

If someone placed Psi Emmiter on Imperium planet, they would be simply flooded. So fast, that they will barely manage to send a distress call.

I would seriously doubt that it would be that fast at all. Considering that the weapons of the Imperium would allow for greater resistance to be put up. Or depending on the planet that would be invaded, outright repelled. Now how about if I put a Patriarch on a Terran planet? Now that would trigger a really nasty Tyranid swarm.

The fact, that it's considered canon, does not change the fact, that this is bullshit, added only to sound cool, not to make sense.

Now, what's that comparision? Discworld series is, as you said, comedy. Is Total Annihilation a comedy? No. Do we talk about comedies right now? No. Is this whole discussion a parody or kidding? No.

If they use classes of battlefield units, that are out-of-date even now, in XXI century, and can't build aeroplanes, that would be at least a bit as fast, as ours? Yes. A bit.

I don't know, what supply lines and logistical flows have in common with anachronism of using units, that are anachronic even today.

And who did say here about naval assets as a whole? Certainly not me.

Originally posted by doan_m
It does.

... not. Humans have no psionic power, so those devices would be useless if they tried to use them. Protoss do, so they may do that.

Originally posted by doan_m
Had it something to do with psionics than Fenix would have diced that hydralisk to bits.

It has a lot to do with psionics. Those devices only help them to wield what is inside them, they create nothing by themselves. Fenix didn't dice that Hydralisk to bits, because he wasn't on high Khala level, and was unable to use his psionics without those amplifiers.

Originally posted by doan_m
All instances in question show that the Orks had cleaved in the gaps of armor.

If an Ork stroke with his axe directly from above, at Marine's arm, axe should've bounced off his... damn, I don't know the word. That huge piece of metal protecting his shoulders.

Originally posted by doan_m
I.e, if you try to contain about 0.01 grams worth of plasma in a 1cc volume, the pressure to contain it would have to be something at 700 gPa.

Hold, hold, hold. Why fiction plasma gun must be loaded with pure plasma (that of milion degrees or so) already? This may be only a fuel, that is transformed into plasma due to reaction that takes place inside the rifle.
Not to mention the fact, that in WH40k Space Marine's plasma rifles are loaded with pure plasma. How is that possible and how is it that those rifles do not melt? Well, in Doom 3 you put pure plasma inside plasma gun too...

Originally posted by doan_m
It’s also apparently capable of burning in space.

Just like that instance with burning underwater - it is a question of putting an oxidizer into the substance, not of its destructive power. If we thought that way, we would say, that M79 bombs from WWII (those I mentioned earlier), are as powerful as flamethrower loaded with Promethium is.

Originally posted by doan_m
First and Only where three men are incinerated (burnt to ashes) in nearly an instance.

That DOES show its power.

Originally posted by doan_m
So naturally, personally going in there and finding the damn thing and killing it in person would certainly have to be an option that has to be taken, mainly because they really need to make sure that the very summoner of tyranid invasions have to be destroyed.

Well, should he survive the firepower of Imperial Navy ship?

Originally posted by doan_m
Relative to 40k IT IS merely a few star systems in contrast to the galactic wide perpetual state of warfare.

The problem is that for UED whole Korpulu sector is but one of many fish to fry, as for WH40k races it is merely a few star systems.

Originally posted by doan_m
And just how many would have to be fielded in a fight to bring down one ship before they realize that the potential kills to losses ratios of such a fight would be horribly devastating and they decide to withdraw?

I stand corrected.

Originally posted by doan_m
And how far is Korhal IV?

Probably closer than from one Imperium planet to another.

Originally posted by doan_m
1000 per chapter. Not 100. And there are a crapload of chapters out there.

One hundred. One thousand is an entire chapter, including Terminators and "normal" Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Scouts, etc. And there are one thousand of those chapters. One thousand chapters, each of one thousand Marines - a milion.

Originally posted by doan_m
When damn near every alien is at war with humanity, what else would you expect from the bulk of the fleet?

And what's the big deal for the bulk of the fleet to send five ships, instead of one.

Originally posted by doan_m
Care to provide where you get those numbers?

Playing "Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels" 🙂. (damn, does anybody know, how to prevent this game from crashing under WinXP?)
There were around thirty Terminators involved into action. Part of them surely died. The other problem is, that they not always win, and then whole squad goes down.

Originally posted by doan_m
They are special supersoldiers after all and they are certainly not the main defensive line of the Imperium.

They take part in many conflicts anyway. Nasty situations are quite common in WH40k, what's more. And what's further more, if they are sent to handle nasty situations, there is even greater risk, that they will die.

Such Blood Ravens. GW didn't see it as a bad idea to sent them into few conflicts at one time (Dawn of War campaigns).

Originally posted by doan_m
Only if you exclude the Navy and the Guard.

OK, but there's still something not right about it. Terrans, that are not so technologically advanced, are advanced enough e.g. to equip each soldier with power armour, not a small part of them. And to mind condition them, so they would obey any command.

Originally posted by doan_m
Primitive relative to 40k, sure.

Damn, they are (in many ways) primitive relative to our sad reality.

Originally posted by doan_m
But sufficient enough that they have their own warp drives.

And how do they use them, BTW, as they are not psychically gifted?

Originally posted by doan_m
What makes you so sure? Considering the absurd level of diversity that is expected from the Imperium, it would be unsurprising if that gun was one of the guns that were only used too a localized level, but looted by the Orks.

OK, so what about its level of technological advancement? What makes it more powerful that machine guns from WWII or reality?

Originally posted by doan_m
It’s not. It’s even officially up on the Blizzard website in their unit description of the Hydralisk on the SC2 website.

I thought we were talking about SC1, so make up your mind.

Originally posted by doan_m
Even IF it does bring its nuclear warheads to bear upon the enemy, this still does not equate to the guns being sufficiently silenced.

I were rather thinking about Lockdown for all this time, but, as you say it, right, Ghost may decimate IG by throwing a nuke on their heads.

Originally posted by doan_m
Tyranid swarms have actually been successfully repelled by the guard (Caiphas Cain Omnibus, first chapter). And sheer numbers is certainly not a no-limits fallacy as is being implied here.

I said that they MAY do it, not that it is inevitable. But when there are so many Zerg, as on Antiga Prime, this might end bad for the IG anyway. Then they covered the entire planet like carpet, and filled the air with their flyers.

Originally posted by doan_m
And before the power of the lasgun should even be underestimated. I’ll just bring up its capabilities.

I've heard about its capabilities. But when I play Dawn of War, I still see, how Guardsmen fire at Kroot with those lasguns, and can hardly kill them. Kroot - that do not wear any armor, and they are even naked, what's more. They should be massacred.

Originally posted by doan_m
Now how about if I put a Patriarch on a Terran planet? Now that would trigger a really nasty Tyranid swarm.

I do not deny it, and what result of it would be. I'm just saying, that both Terrans and IG are in deep sh*t, whether Zerg attack them, or Tyranid do.

Originally posted by doan_m
How you feel about what TA fluff is, will not change the fact that it is fluff and that therefore, I am still free to use it. Regardless of what your opinion of it is.

Then look at it in this way. You keep talking about Imperial weaponry firepower, and plating/shields of their ships, using units like teratons or gigajoules - something that is not told about in SC-verse. Let's suppose, that some kinda fan writes a novel, where he puts an info, that Yamato Cannon delivers firepower of X teratons - and that would be considered by Blizzard as canon. What would you say then?

Originally posted by doan_m
Besides, there still not primitive because that gigatons worth of firepower for ground units is still there.

Yea, but certain areas of this whole warfare seem anachronic anyway.

Originally posted by doan_m
You did, when you inferred that TA possessing naval assets makes them somehow primitive.

I was talking about battleships, not naval force as a whole.

Warhammer 40k FTW

And in the case of the Imperium v the Terrans,

if we exclude the variances in technology for a moment, the Imperium has WAY more manpower at their disposal than the broken Terran.

not. Humans have no psionic power, so those devices would be useless if they tried to use them. Protoss do, so they may do that.

It has a lot to do with psionics. Those devices only help them to wield what is inside them, they create nothing by themselves. Fenix didn't dice that Hydralisk to bits, because he wasn't on high Khala level, and was unable to use his psionics without those amplifiers.

If an Ork stroke with his axe directly from above, at Marine's arm, axe should've bounced off his... damn, I don't know the word. That huge piece of metal protecting his shoulders.

Hold, hold, hold. Why fiction plasma gun must be loaded with pure plasma (that of milion degrees or so) already?

This may be only a fuel, that is transformed into plasma due to reaction that takes place inside the rifle.

Not to mention the fact, that in WH40k Space Marine's plasma rifles are loaded with pure plasma.

How is that possible and how is it that those rifles do not melt? Well, in Doom 3 you put pure plasma inside plasma gun too...

Just like that instance with burning underwater - it is a question of putting an oxidizer into the substance, not of its destructive power.

Well, should he survive the firepower of Imperial Navy ship?

The problem is that for UED whole Korpulu sector is but one of many fish to fry, as for WH40k races it is merely a few star systems.

Probably closer than from one Imperium planet to another.

One hundred. One thousand is an entire chapter, including Terminators and "normal" Tactical Marines, Assault Marines, Scouts, etc. And there are one thousand of those chapters. One thousand chapters, each of one thousand Marines - a milion.

And what's the big deal for the bulk of the fleet to send five ships, instead of one.

There were around thirty Terminators involved into action. Part of them surely died. The other problem is, that they not always win, and then whole squad goes down.

They take part in many conflicts anyway. Nasty situations are quite common in WH40k, what's more. And what's further more, if they are sent to handle nasty situations, there is even greater risk, that they will die.

Such Blood Ravens. GW didn't see it as a bad idea to sent them into few conflicts at one time (Dawn of War campaigns).

OK, but there's still something not right about it. Terrans, that are not so technologically advanced, are advanced enough e.g. to equip each soldier with power armour, not a small part of them. And to mind condition them, so they would obey any command.

Damn, they are (in many ways) primitive relative to our sad reality.

And how do they use them, BTW, as they are not psychically gifted?

OK, so what about its level of technological advancement? What makes it more powerful that machine guns from WWII or reality?

I thought we were talking about SC1, so make up your mind.

I were rather thinking about Lockdown for all this time, but, as you say it, right, Ghost may decimate IG by throwing a nuke on their heads.

I said that they MAY do it, not that it is inevitable. But when there are so many Zerg, as on Antiga Prime, this might end bad for the IG anyway. Then they covered the entire planet like carpet, and filled the air with their flyers.

I've heard about its capabilities. But when I play Dawn of War, I still see, how Guardsmen fire at Kroot with those lasguns, and can hardly kill them.

Kroot - that do not wear any armor, and they are even naked, what's more.

They should be massacred.

I do not deny it, and what result of it would be. I'm just saying, that both Terrans and IG are in deep sh*t, whether Zerg attack them, or Tyranid do.

Then look at it in this way. You keep talking about Imperial weaponry firepower, and plating/shields of their ships, using units like teratons or gigajoules - something that is not told about in SC-verse.

Let's suppose, that some kinda fan writes a novel, where he puts an info, that Yamato Cannon delivers firepower of X teratons - and that would be considered by Blizzard as canon. What would you say then?

I was talking about battleships, not naval force as a whole.

Just wanted to point out a couple of fluff things.

First, the Imperium in 40K is VERY slow to react. The reason they don't board Hulks with countless troops is simply because they take too long to get there- the navy is extremely slow. The Marines (with their own ships) are the rapid reaction force.

Secondly, it was always endemic to the plot of Space Hulk that there was something of value aboard the Hulk. Else they would indeed just blast it to pieces.

Thirdly... Space Hulks are exceptionally rare.

Originally posted by doan_m
It is highly on the technological side because its THAT particular kind of technology that facilitates in the weaponization of Protoss psionic energy into a coherent blade. Its an enhancer that can be akin to power armor(modern world) in the sense of enhancing user abilities.

I'd say, that it does not enhance user's abilities, but enables him to use something that is already inside him. Like a tool.

Originally posted by doan_m
The fact that that Zealots normally require to have those forearms/amplifiers in the first place is a testamant to that fact.

It is only a testament to the fact that they are not enough trained/experienced to use their psionic powers without those forearms.

Originally posted by doan_m
You don't get more straightforward then the categorization "plasma fuel"

I could call it "Something That Is Not Plasma At All, But Is About To Become It", but it's not that cool.

Originally posted by doan_m
Unless of course, someone out there actually has a realistic portrayal of plasma in science fiction.

Well, I have an idea, that I mentioned earlier - that plasma guns are merely loaded with a sort of 'fuel', that transformed into plasma due to reaction taking place inside the gun. And becomes plasma, while leaving the barrel.

Originally posted by doan_m
And for 40k its NOT a few star systems.

Christ...
I meant, for UED, the Koprulu sector is but a few systems, AS WELL AS FOR the races of WH40k.

Originally posted by doan_m
Thats right. 5 ships is also a fairly small number.

So come up with an amount of ships with enough firepower, to destroy but a hulk.

Originally posted by doan_m
There is a definite hint in DoW that a good number of them are sent, however we can't use those ingames squads as an idea as to just how many.

Oh, but we may use the plot.
During the original campaign, it was only one company.
During Dark Crusade, it were three companies - the first, the third, and the fourth. That means, they had around 300 Marines in action on Kronus. Should they lose that war, and suffer the loss of whole strike force (or at least most of it), it is a considerable blow for the Blood Ravens chapter.

Originally posted by doan_m
This comes down to preference as to how resources are used. With 40k, they need to produce something that is relatively cheap, and fast to produce for most of the lower common denominator of guard units.

OK, but Imperium still consists of hundreds of systems, and should have immense industrial power. Even if there are bilions of troops to equip, there are many worlds from where they can get resources and money for it, more than Terran Dominion has. If we try to check, how many soldiers are there per planet, the numbers could be quite similar (maybe a bit more on the Imperium's side, as they have such freaking worlds as those of Cadian system). Which still shows, that somehow Terrans of SC can equip each soldier (even the lowest scum) with technologically advanced power armor, and Imperium cannot. Saving cash for Marines, perhaps?

Originally posted by doan_m
Hardly. They are just very unusual to say the least.

Well, what would prevent us from decimating them with air strikes, e.g.? Or even better - nuclear bombardment? What would be left of their infantry, if contemporary tanks or mobile cannons would fire at it?
They do not use vehicles, they do not use sophisticated weaponry, and are kinda wild generally.

Originally posted by doan_m
No we are talking about the SC Universe in general. Had i been talking about SC1 then I wouldn't even dare cite novels.

Well, then you should check new toys of SC races, such as Void Ray of the Protoss. Or Terran Thor.

Originally posted by doan_m
And lockdown has been shown to be permanent?

It was shown to be long enough.

Originally posted by doan_m
And again, this requires getting within operational range to actually deploy said weapon before getting blasted to hell under oh so much las and tank fire.

And since when Ghosts attack frontally? They are silent assassins and invisible killers, they can sneak up to the enemies and deliver the blow, before they realize, what's going on.

Originally posted by doan_m
Considering that Tyranids are a far, far worse enemy than the Zerg could ever hope to be, I would seriously doubt that the Zerg would even hit that level.

Well, it took only a few hours for the Zerg to take over the whole planet and slaughter all of its inhabitants, when they attacked Antiga Prime after the activation of Psi Emmiter. For Tyranid it took almost fifty days, e.g., when they conquered Dalki Prime. What did PDF do all this time?

Originally posted by doan_m
Bio-ships capable of adapting to the point where in a matter of three days, it managed to make itself nigh impenetrable to lance weaponry.

Heard about it. What's the point of making up such miracles? How then did the Imperium defeat them at all?
Besides, all Zerg unit enhancements are based on evolution, which means, that they also have an ability to adapt. Making them not invulnerable, but much more resistant to the enemy weaponry.

Originally posted by doan_m
For the IG I’d hardly doubt it would be “deep sh*t” as you say it would be. Especially since they have experience with a far worse enemy.

If they can be beaten even when they have time to react, I hardly imagine, how would they prepare an organized defense when milions of Zerg arrive at one time, due to the use of Psi Emmiter.

Originally posted by doan_m
I generally don’t have any problem with what is and what isn’t written as canon so long as there is reasonable proof to show that its actually written as such.

Here lies the problem.
An idea of Yamato Cannons delivering teratons of firepower (and thus, enough firepower to overload the shields of Imperial ships) seems to be a lie, because such cannon should be able to destroy the planets. And yet it doesn't (or maybe, perhaps - Behemoth class battlecruiser, trying to destroy a planet with Yamato Cannon, was never portrayed anyway!).
That's why I don't believe in that fluff about Pewee's firepower as well - those charges are tiny, cause tiny destruction, and certainly do not look like they were delivering an explosion equal to explosion of one tone of trotile per projectile. Especially when they fire a long bursts of such projectiles - man, bombs from WWII, some of which had a firepower of five kilotons, caused local earthquakes, when they exploded! And Pewee can fire even fifty of those projectiles, that are said to have firepower of one kiloton per each, and do nothing.

Originally posted by doan_m
Here is the difference. Battleships for us, are freakishly expensive.

Very small difference anyway. Even if they have huge amount of recources, those recources must be used to create a huge army of units, that are needed on the battlefield, not those, that are useless or can be slaughtered easily. Who will be in the worse situation, one army with 1000 battleships, or the second one, with 1000 ships of other classes? If all those battleships are sunk by air strikes (and it's not hard, because battleships are helpless against them), it would appear, that the first army only wasted all those recources.

I'd say, that it does not enhance user's abilities, but enables him to use something that is already inside him. Like a tool.

It is only a testament to the fact that they are not enough trained/experienced to use their psionic powers without those forearms.

I could call it "Something That Is Not Plasma At All, But Is About To Become It", but it's not that cool.

Well, I have an idea, that I mentioned earlier - that plasma guns are merely loaded with a sort of 'fuel', that transformed into plasma due to reaction taking place inside the gun. And becomes plasma, while leaving the barrel.

Christ...
I meant, for UED, the Koprulu sector is but a few systems, AS WELL AS FOR the races of WH40k.

So come up with an amount of ships with enough firepower, to destroy but a hulk.

Oh, but we may use the plot.
During the original campaign, it was only one company.
During Dark Crusade, it were three companies - the first, the third, and the fourth. That means, they had around 300 Marines in action on Kronus. Should they lose that war, and suffer the loss of whole strike force (or at least most of it), it is a considerable blow for the Blood Ravens chapter.

OK, but Imperium still consists of hundreds of systems, and should have immense industrial power.

Even if there are bilions of troops to equip, there are many worlds from where they can get resources and money for it, more than Terran Dominion has.

If we try to check, how many soldiers are there per planet, the numbers could be quite similar (maybe a bit more on the Imperium's side, as they have such freaking worlds as those of Cadian system).

Which still shows, that somehow Terrans of SC can equip each soldier (even the lowest scum) with technologically advanced power armor, and Imperium cannot.

Saving cash for Marines, perhaps?

Well, what would prevent us from decimating them with air strikes, e.g.? Or even better - nuclear bombardment?

This is of course, again making the assumption that the enemy doesn't fire back, doesn't move to contest your ground, doesn't have air assets to contest the skies, or for that matter doesn't have tactical and strategic means of fighting back. And considering that the Tau that usually does back up the Kroot, they will have those assets. I also seriously doubt that any of this would work on warspheres.

What would be left of their infantry, if contemporary tanks or mobile cannons would fire at it?

They do not use vehicles, they do not use sophisticated weaponry, and are kinda wild generally.

Well, then you should check new toys of SC races, such as Void Ray of the Protoss. Or Terran Thor.

It was shown to be long enough.

And since when Ghosts attack frontally? They are silent assassins and invisible killers, they can sneak up to the enemies and deliver the blow, before they realize, what's going on.

Well, it took only a few hours for the Zerg to take over the whole planet and slaughter all of its inhabitants, when they attacked Antiga Prime after the activation of Psi Emmiter.

The Tyranids behave differently than the Zerg do. What the Tyranids do, is consume every single living thing in its path along with every natural thing that facilitates living. It drinks the oceans, the atmosphere, the grass etc etc. They basically consume every single thing down to the last cell until the world itself is just nothing but a barren atmospherless rock. In other words: The Tyranids have refueled at the gas station.

For Tyranid it took almost fifty days, e.g., when they conquered Dalki Prime. What did PDF do all this time?

Getting there asses kicked naturally. Just remember, not all of those 50 days were not actually open fighting. The way the Tyranids function, they generally prefer to infiltrate whatever planet they are on first and create genestealer cults to butter up the planet, even if its a relatively small backwater agriculture world like Dalki Prime. IIRC, it was only one single drop pod that actually had went into the planet and from that one seed, had spread until the 1.5 million hive ships had arrived to consume the entire planet.

Had the nids gone in with a standard assault without the goal of refueling and just to slaughter the local populace, then of course it would have taken a signficantly shorter amount of time.

Heard about it. What's the point of making up such miracles? How then did the Imperium defeat them at all?

The Imperium hasn't defeated them at all. Generally speaking.

Besides, all Zerg unit enhancements are based on evolution, which means, that they also have an ability to adapt. Making them not invulnerable, but much more resistant to the enemy weaponry.

If they can be beaten even when they have time to react, I hardly imagine, how would they prepare an organized defense when milions of Zerg arrive at one time, due to the use of Psi Emmiter.

And the Zerg are on par with the Tyranids? Really now, one of the things that really make the Tyranids so deadly is not just the fact that there attack forces are significantly larger then the millions that the Zerg would field planet side, but also because they can block off communications and sever warp travel into and out of the planetary system.

Here lies the problem.
An idea of Yamato Cannons delivering teratons of firepower (and thus, enough firepower to overload the shields of Imperial ships)

seems to be a lie, because such cannon should be able to destroy the planets.

And yet it doesn't (or maybe, perhaps - Behemoth class battlecruiser, trying to destroy a planet with Yamato Cannon, was never portrayed anyway!).

That's why I don't believe in that fluff about Pewee's firepower as well - those charges are tiny, cause tiny destruction, and certainly do not look like they were delivering an explosion equal to explosion of one tone of trotile per projectile.

Especially when they fire a long bursts of such projectiles - man, bombs from WWII, some of which had a firepower of five kilotons, caused local earthquakes, when they exploded! And Pewee can fire even fifty of those projectiles, that are said to have firepower of one kiloton per each, and do nothing.

Very small difference anyway. Even if they have huge amount of recources, those recources must be used to create a huge army of units, that are needed on the battlefield, not those, that are useless or can be slaughtered easily.

Originally posted by doan_m
Except than it wouldn't be called Plasma fuel anymore. Plasma Fuel implicates that the means of the energy supply is the plasma itself.

Hardly. Naming a ship "battlecruiser" or "auxiliary cruiser" does not mean, that they are truly cruisers.

Originally posted by doan_m
Unless of course, Plasma in Starcraft is nearly identical to just really hot fire.

Not really. Plasma is also used in cannons of AAV-5 Arclite Siege Tanks, and their successors, Crucio Siege Tanks.

Originally posted by doan_m
And while they certainly do, one should keep in mind that the technological state of all of 40k is not entirely symmetrical.

Well, I may agree here. The greatest problem for Terran/Zerg/Protoss is fighting Imperial Navy, because land forces are not that powerful.

Originally posted by doan_m
You are of course not mentioning the local Planetary Defense Force(separate from the guard)

Thought it is a division of Imperial Guard.

Originally posted by doan_m
While the Guard may not get sufficient infantry assets, they do however have the privilege of receiving better armored fighting vehicles than what the Marines have. They are after all, entitled to requisition the superheavies if they have to.

Yeah, but not all of those vehicles are so devastating. Sentinels and Hellhouds have considerable firepower, but are futile and don't have really good armour (at least they are destroyed very easily in DoW, even if you don't have much heavy weaponry). Only Leman Russ is truly resistant and can suffer massive damage. Well, there are Baneblades, too, but how many are there of them per regiment? Basilisks are typical mobile cannons, so it is hardly surprising, that their main feature is firepower, not armour.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why in the hell would we bombard them with nukes

And why wouldn't we? Air strikes would be enough?

Originally posted by doan_m
And considering that the Tau that usually does back up the Kroot

I'm talking only about the Kroot, not Kroot-Tau alliance.

Originally posted by doan_m

[QUOTE=12334266]Originally posted by doan_m
Assuming of course that the Tau they fight with are not present at all.

See above.

Originally posted by doan_m
In 40k yeah they sure are.

Guys, that consume the flesh of their fallen enemies, and dwell in houses made of animal hides, are kinda wild not only in WH40k.

Originally posted by doan_m
In what?

In that you can use lockdown on an armoured vehicle, and destroy it with a weapon designed for killing infantry, before it regains ability to move.

Originally posted by doan_m
With psykers within the regiments of the Imperial Guard?

Who won't see the Ghosts due to their psychic inhibitors?

Originally posted by doan_m
The Tyranids behave differently than the Zerg do. What the Tyranids do, is consume every single living thing in its path along with every natural thing that facilitates living.

The Zerg normally do it, too. They use the local living organisms as a genetic material or meat for the larvae.

Originally posted by doan_m
The Imperium hasn't defeated them at all. Generally speaking.

But the Tyranid do not always win, do they? So how is it, that one time they adapt so quickly, that even lances can't harm them, and another time they get their asses kicked? Are those miracles with adaptation to the level mentioned above single cases?

Originally posted by doan_m
To the point that it rivals Tyranid evolution?

Maybe.
Don't forget the fact, that the Zerg quickly incorporate the genes of other lifeforms into their fold. Should they engage the Tyranid, it is highly possible, that they would soon also have new breeds of units, with such inpenetrable armour.

Originally posted by doan_m
Really now, one of the things that really make the Tyranids so deadly is not just the fact that there attack forces are significantly larger then the millions that the Zerg would field planet side

I'm not so sure about that milions. I just don't know any official info of their numbers, but if there were so many of them on Antiga Prime, that they easily covered the whole surface of the planet, and filled the air... well take a look at our planet - current population of it is over 6 bilions, and we certainly wouldn't be able to cover the whole Earth with our bodies, just as the Zerg did with Antiga Prime. Even including wild animals.
So if 6 bilions isn't enough at all... we may assume, that there were not millions, not billions, but trillions of those Zerg on Antiga.
And yet another thing - the loss of whole that swarm (because it was incinerated by the Protoss due to their destruction of the planet) meant NOTHING to the Zerg.

Originally posted by doan_m
but also because they can block off communications and sever warp travel into and out of the planetary system.

So how did people on Dalki Prime send a distress call at all?

Originally posted by doan_m
Imperial ships have nearly instantly rechargable shields that allow them to reach full power again in nearly no time flat.

So how do the weapons of WH40k penetrate through them, and destroy the armour?

Originally posted by doan_m
Based on what evidence?

Firstly, based on your own words. When you first said, that shields of Imperial ships may suffer teratons of firepower, and that this kind of firepower is able to destroy continents.
Secondly, based on an assumption. The first nukes, those made due to Manhattan Project (e.g. Little Boy or Fatman), had a firepower of 17-20 megatons. The first thermonuclear bomb, made later, was ten times more powerful, which gives 200 megatons of firepower. Nukes 'used' (fortunately, they are not used literally) are even more powerful, as this branch of science still develops, and we know more effective reactions than we knew in the first half of twentieth century. But even a 200-megaton a-bomb, able to take out entire, even the biggest town easily, is still a toy compared to an a-bomb, delivering teratons of firepower. Because those 200 megatons, are still only a 0,0000002 of one teraton. So an atom bomb, with a firepower of X teratons, should destroy a whole continent easily.

Originally posted by doan_m
Like in 40k, where there are actually demonstrated feats of teraton to even petaton level firepower in various novels.

It seems, that they like those numbers. And did they even say, on what reaction is it based? Simply more effective a-bomb, or something new, fictional?

Originally posted by doan_m
Depends on what you are using as the basis of measurement.

The size of the explosion, and effect, that is makes on the environment. Explosion is tiny, and the effect on the environment is... well, there is no such effect at all.

Originally posted by doan_m
Unlike most warfare, TA resources are theoretically not limited, meaning that they can simultaneously fill the demand for a sufficiently land based force AND a naval force at the same time.

But they can produce X amount of units at one time. And if one side wastes that time for producing useless units, and those useless units go down, the other side is far ahead and gains advantage instantly.

Originally posted by Der_SpeeDer
[B]Hardly. Naming a ship "battlecruiser" or "auxiliary cruiser" does not mean, that they are truly cruisers.

With something like "fuel" on the other hand there is not much room for any other means of ambiguity like that of which could be expected from warships. Besides theres no evidence to suggest that they would actually eject plasma instead of having merely just contained it since all evidence suggest its just fuel.

Not really. Plasma is also used in cannons of AAV-5 Arclite Siege Tanks, and their successors, Crucio Siege Tanks.

You see, its questions like that, that makes the notion that some mysterious fuel converts into plasma absurd.

Well, I may agree here. The greatest problem for Terran/Zerg/Protoss is fighting Imperial Navy, because land forces are not that powerful.

Thought it is a division of Imperial Guard.

Yeah, but not all of those vehicles are so devastating.

Sentinels and Hellhouds have considerable firepower, but are futile and don't have really good armor [/QUOTE] They are lower common denominator of armor so as I usually say "thats hardly surprising"

(at least they are destroyed very easily in DoW, even if you don't have much heavy weaponry).

Only Leman Russ is truly resistant and can suffer massive damage.

Well, there are Baneblades, too, but how many are there of them per regiment?

And why wouldn't we? Air strikes would be enough?

I'm talking only about the Kroot, not Kroot-Tau alliance.

Guys, that consume the flesh of their fallen enemies, and dwell in houses made of animal hides, are kinda wild not only in WH40k.

In that you can use lockdown on an armoured vehicle, and destroy it with a weapon designed for killing infantry, before it regains ability to move.

Who won't see the Ghosts due to their psychic inhibitors?

The Zerg normally do it, too. They use the local living organisms as a genetic material or meat for the larvae.

But the Tyranids do not always win, do they? So how is it, that one time they adapt so quickly, that even lances can't harm them, and another time they get their asses kicked?

Because Hive Fleets are separate from each other. The only ones who would evolve with such immediacy are the ones who would actually be immediately present in the situation to be forced to adapt such means.

Are those miracles with adaptation to the level mentioned above single cases?

Maybe.
Don't forget the fact, that the Zerg quickly incorporate the genes of other lifeforms into their fold. Should they engage the Tyranid, it is highly possible, that they would soon also have new breeds of units, with such inpenetrable armour.

I'm not so sure about that milions. I just don't know any official info of their numbers, but if there were so many of them on Antiga Prime, that they easily covered the whole surface of the planet, and filled the air...

So if 6 bilions isn't enough at all... we may assume, that there were not millions, not billions, but trillions of those Zerg on Antiga.

Again, this is making the presumption that it had to have literally blanketed the entire planet as opposed to just having a sizable presence that drove out the inhabitants. I also seriously doubt that the Zerg would even densely group themselves like that if they even did blanket an entire planet.

And yet another thing - the loss of whole that swarm (because it was incinerated by the Protoss due to their destruction of the planet) meant NOTHING to the Zerg.

I seriously doubt that. When the Tiamat Brood was considered to be the strongest around, the strength size was considered to be around 6,500,000. A loss of trillions, assuming those kinds of numbers would exist in single broods would be potentially devestating considering those numbers.

So how did people on Dalki Prime send a distress call at all?

So how do the weapons of WH40k penetrate through them, and destroy the armour?

Firstly, based on your own words. When you first said, that shields of Imperial ships may suffer teratons of firepower, and that this kind of firepower is able to destroy continents.

Destruction of continents is not the same as the destruction of a planet. Its greater magnitudes of less firepower.

Secondly, based on an assumption. The first nukes, those made due to Manhattan Project (e.g. Little Boy or Fatman), had a firepower of 17-20 megatons.

The first thermonuclear bomb, made later, was ten times more powerful, which gives 200 megatons of firepower.

But even a 200-megaton a-bomb, able to take out entire, even the biggest town easily, is still a toy compared to an a-bomb, delivering teratons of firepower. Because those 200 megatons, are still only a 0,0000002 of one teraton. So an atom bomb, with a firepower of X teratons, should destroy a whole continent easily.

But how does this address my question that Teraton level firepower would be sufficient to destroy a planet? Glass it sure,but not destroy it. And seriously? Who told you that we even stockpile 200 megaton warheads to begin with?!?!

It seems, that they like those numbers. And did they even say, on what reaction is it based? Simply more effective a-bomb, or something new, fictional?

The size of the explosion, and effect, that is makes on the environment. Explosion is tiny, and the effect on the environment is... well, there is no such effect at all.

But they can produce X amount of units at one time. And if one side wastes that time for producing useless units, and those useless units go down, the other side is far ahead and gains advantage instantly.

Originally posted by doan_m
So Siege tanks really shoot hot fire out of its cannons?

No.

Originally posted by doan_m
I did point out several instances of 40k ground based firepower being superior did I not?

How? If you have no single info about what is the level of firepower delivered by Siege Tanks, so how would you compare tanks of WH40k to them? The tanks owned by Space Marines are told to sustain the gigajoules of energy - so, why Siege Tanks shouldn't deliver firepower of that level? Because Blizzard said nothing about it.

Originally posted by doan_m
What did I say about game mechanics again?

Game mechanics are still based on the world's lore in certain stage, aren't they?

Originally posted by doan_m
Most not in the Tau-Kroot alliance are mercenaries out for hire. So I can hardly see why there would be any intent in the first place to actually go out of our way to try to kill them.

Remember, what I said?
I was talking about Kroot primitiveness, not about the other races. And to show this primitiveness, I tried to imagine, how would their invasion on the Earth look like. So why are you now involving other races?

Originally posted by doan_m
They live in spaceships you know. There called warspheres.

Not all of them.

Originally posted by doan_m
I'm asking for hard numbers. What in seconds or minutes have the effects of lockdown been shown to be?

There were no numbers, and that's the point. How you can be sure, that the effect isn't long enough?
Just like that instance with the firepower that Predators or Leman Russes can take.

Originally posted by doan_m
And how can you be sure that it would penetrate the armor in the first place?

It's not the question of armour.

Originally posted by doan_m
I can't see how a device designed to limit the ghost abilities is even relevant.

They are not designed to limit the Ghost abilities. They are used to "lock" the access to the Ghost's mind. Kerrigan said that in Liberty's Crusade.

Originally posted by doan_m
This is of course making the assumption that it would be able to annihilate said multi-kilometer bioship in the first place. Which travels in massive swarms of thousands of ships.

Tyranid bio-weaponry is also a trait based on genes, that can be incorporated by the Zerg too, you know.

Originally posted by doan_m
Covered the whole surface of the planet is open to interpretation. One of them not being that it was literally blanketed with Zerg.

In Liberty's Crusade it was. Antiga Prime was seen on the screen on Hyperion's deck, when Mengsk watched, how it was overrun by the Zerg, represented by small red triangles. When the invasion was over, whole planet was red. Completely. And there were no human units - everything was slaughtered.

Originally posted by doan_m
I seriously doubt that.

And I don't. Because they lost those billions of the Zerg, and were still easily able to unleash next billions (or even trillions, as Mengsk used more than one Psi Emmiter) on Tarsonis. And their advancement in Koprulu sector didn't slow down at all, despite massive losses.

Originally posted by doan_m
When the Tiamat Brood was considered to be the strongest around, the strength size was considered to be around 6,500,000

Now, where did you get that info? There are more soldiers on our old planet Earth, in sad reality of today, than that.

Originally posted by doan_m
Because the Shadow of the Warp was thrown up after the distress call was sent?

And it took one hundred days for the Imperial Navy to arrive? Well, they're having great time there. Even those Terrans could come and bomb the whole planet with nukes.

Originally posted by doan_m
17-20 megatons?!?!?!?!?! Megatons?!?!?

My mistake. Yeah, those were kilotons. I converted those numbers incorrectly.

Originally posted by doan_m
Who told you that?!?!?

Wołoszański. In some way.
He "told" me, that when they made that test nuke explosion ("Trinity"😉, it came out, that the power of blow reached the level of 17 - 20 thousand tons of trotile. Which shocked everybody, as general Leslie Groves thought it would be only 100-500 tons of trotile, and when Oppenheimer stated that it would be a few thousand tons, they disbelieved him.

Originally posted by doan_m
But how does this address my question that Teraton level firepower would be sufficient to destroy a planet?

Single shot - of course not. But if you fire a number of shots, they may turn planet into dust. It is also still based on what kind of weapon it is. Yamato Cannon is basically a particle beam, so it could have more penetration ability, than traditional warhead.

Originally posted by doan_m
Are you still using game mechanics?

And intro?
So what should I use in case of TA? Fanfic?
The idea of 1 kiloton projectiles, that are being shot in tens of hundreds, and show absolutely no signs, that they are really that powerful, is bullshit - especially as it came out, that I was wrong all the time about those kilotons (and thus, those bombs of WWII, that caused local earthquakes when they exploded, had a firepower of 0,005 kilotons). They can consider it canon, because its their world and fiction after all, and I may accept it, but if they told me to believe it, it would offend my intelligence.

Originally posted by doan_m
Which is merely a limitation of the commanders cognitive abilities. Nothing more.

Yeah, sure. You're wasting time, producing next battleships, and suddenly you realize, that enemies are already shooting at your commander, because all previously built ships are down, and there is nothing to protect him (commander) from enemy fire. What then?

Originally posted by Der_SpeeDer
No.

How? If you have no single info about what is the level of firepower delivered by Siege Tanks, so how would you compare tanks of WH40k to them? The tanks owned by Space Marines are told to sustain the gigajoules of energy - so, why Siege Tanks shouldn't deliver firepower of that level? Because Blizzard said nothing about it.

Game mechanics are still based on the world's lore in certain stage, aren't they?

Remember, what I said?
I was talking about Kroot primitiveness, not about the other races. And to show this primitiveness, I tried to imagine, how would their invasion on the Earth look like. So why are you now involving other races?

Not all of them.

It will be the most relevant and attackable thing since its pretty much forward of its colonies.

There were no numbers, and that's the point. How you can be sure, that the effect isn't long enough?

Just like that instance with the firepower that Predators or Leman Russes can take.

It's not the question of armour.

They are not designed to limit the Ghost abilities. They are used to "lock" the access to the Ghost's mind. Kerrigan said that in Liberty's Crusade.

Originally posted by Liberty's Crusade
“It’s the other way around,” said Kerrigan, a taste of bitterness in her voice. “The inhibitors also keep
your nasty little thoughts out ofmy mind. It’s tough when you know everyone around you is untrustworthy
at some level.” She looked hard at Mike, her green eyes flashing.

Tyranid bio-weaponry is also a trait based on genes, that can be incorporated by the Zerg too, you know.

In Liberty's Crusade it was. Antiga Prime was seen on the screen on Hyperion's deck, when Mengsk watched, how it was overrun by the Zerg, represented by small red triangles. When the invasion was over, whole planet was red. Completely. And there were no human units - everything was slaughtered.

Originally posted by Liberty's Crusade

All the screens but the main one had been turned off, and the last screen showed a real-time display of
Antiga Prime, hovering at the center. Small yellow triangles represented Confederate forces, red triangles
the ever-multiplying Zerg. A few blue-white pips that Mike had never seen before were on the surface.
There were also a few circles planetside: rebel forces that had been unfortunate not to have escaped in
time. As Mike watched, they were subsumed in a wave of red triangles.

And also:

Originally posted by Liberty's Crusade
On the main screen, Antiga was nearly covered with red
triangles, and a perimeter of blue triangles was in orbit around it. There were no yellow triangles left.

Now do you see why its so up to interpretation? There is no relative size of the triangles itself to speak of that could actually allow any reasonable interpretation beyond, sufficient size to overwhelm the few opposing forces that were on the ground at the time.

And I don't. Because they lost those billions of the Zerg, and were still easily able to unleash next billions (or even trillions, as Mengsk used more than one Psi Emmiter) on Tarsonis. And their advancement in Koprulu sector didn't slow down at all, despite massive losses.

Now, where did you get that info? There are more soldiers on our old planet Earth, in sad reality of today, than that.

And it took one hundred days for the Imperial Navy to arrive? Well, they're having great time there. Even those Terrans could come and bomb the whole planet with nukes.

Wołoszański. In some way.
He "told" me, that when they made that test nuke explosion ("Trinity"😉, it came out, that the power of blow reached the level of 17 - 20 thousand tons of trotile.

Single shot - of course not. But if you fire a number of shots, they may turn planet into dust.

It is also still based on what kind of weapon it is. Yamato Cannon is basically a particle beam, so it could have more penetration ability, than traditional warhead.

And intro?
So what should I use in case of TA? Fanfic?

The idea of 1 kiloton projectiles, that are being shot in tens of hundreds, and show absolutely no signs, that they are really that powerful, is bullshit - especially as it came out, that I was wrong all the time about those kilotons (and thus, those bombs of WWII, that caused local earthquakes when they exploded, had a firepower of 0,005 kilotons). They can consider it canon, because its their world and fiction after all, and I may accept it, but if they told me to believe it, it would offend my intelligence.

Yeah, sure. You're wasting time, producing next battleships, and suddenly you realize, that enemies are already shooting at your commander, because all previously built ships are down, and there is nothing to protect him (commander) from enemy fire. What then?

This would be making the presumption that they would not replenish there numbers quickly enough and that the battleships in question would come unsupported with other assets to back it up. And of course that it would rely on battleships to that extent that annihilating it would for some reason, lead to its demise despite the fact that they also build ground assets inland as well.