Starcraft vs, Warhammer 40,000

Started by Der_SpeeDer5 pages
Der_SpeeDer Member
Originally posted by doan_m
And without an idea as to establish what numbers to set per triangle, how can you reasonably conclude that something of close to billions of zerg invaded a single planet?

I thought I already said that.

Originally posted by doan_m
By some premises of design perhaps but certainly not technological advancement.

Only in case of firepower.

Originally posted by doan_m
You don’t actually have to wait for reinforcements for such a long time anymore as your assets can now be fielded right there on the spot rather than acquisitioned from some base that is farther off.

That's not enough.
Give me some modification for battleships, that would make them something more than a slow and cumbersome artillery platform, easy to take out through air strikes and maneuvering, and inferior in terms of accuracy and efficiency than rocket artillery with precise targetting systems.
Unless you do that, those battleships are still anachronic pieces of junk, than can be sunk by torpedoes launched from aeroplanes.

Originally posted by doan_m
Basically, it bitchslaps conventional logistics right in the face and stomps on its nose.

Logistics is but a single factor.

Originally posted by doan_m
This is of course making the assumption that air superiority versus naval assets are actually definite. Something that is certainly not the case in TA. Which is essentially the main problem with this argument. The assumption that the same air superiority exist in the air as it does in the modern world versus naval assets.

Now, how should it disappear? Just give those aeroplanes a torpedo launchers and battleship will be smashed. Sure, maybe he can suffer some damage without being destroyed, but there is usually much, much more aeroplanes, than battleships, as they are being built faster and at a smaller expenses of recources. This won't be changed because of the fact, that battleships are greater and need more resources to be built at all in the first place.

Originally posted by doan_m
And that makes it quite very different from the modern world. The ability to replenish numbers and rebuild them quickly, changing the nature of Naval Warfare into something extremely unique.

Didn't you listen, to what I were saying?

Originally posted by doan_m
Why bring back tanks since since it such old technology? Why engage in combat in a planet’s atmosphere when you’ve got the technology to support your land troops from further up in orbit?

Because it's more cool. But they are still nonesenses, should we discuss it more seriously, rather than having fun by playing those.

Originally posted by doan_m
Except the thing is, is that it could actually save you depending on the size of the other teams industrial output. Technological equivalence does not always mean that they actually field the same base assets. Its merely another “It depends” situation.

I'm talking about situation, where rivals are equal. If they are not, what's the point of one player beating the other, using pieces of junk, and achieveing success only because although he was losing tons of those pieces, he was also able to build them more quickly, than his enemy was?

Originally posted by doan_m
It was basically some hellish plot device that essentially saved the blue men from total annihilation. The same plot device that the Terrans cannot rely on.

Because of what?

doan_m Senior Member


Which makes them more powerful than C-14 Impaler rifle only if it would appear, that it penetrates only two meters. And what if it appeared, that it penetrates four or five?

Then good for them?


Besides, it makes rather small difference in a fight between IG infantry, and Terran infantry, where the second one is fully equipped in power armours, and the Guardsmen are barely armoured. They would be torn apart.
Except here is the thing. The power armor would mean almost nothing as it would certainly get ripped to shred by said lasguns in great number(considering the volume of troops that get deployed on average) , the guardsmen also has a greater advantage in urban warfare since there not hampered down by a massive suit that would not slow them down and would allow them to fit in smaller areas.

Besides, the Zerglings, as other Zerg, do not shred through the armour directly, but are aiming at the weak spots.[/QUOTE]
Brood War intro begs to differ.


One hundred per million planets?

More or less several hundred for use through sectors really. Which makes sense considering that a Titan legion represents a HELL of a lot of firepower.

Small chance, that they would use it in potential strike force.

Bit obvious considering how little of a threat SC would stand in that universe.


Yes, but it is not always so simple to compare them.
It can however, be certainly done.


But is still a moot point, compared to situation, where we have a direct statement, that e.g. Yamato Cannon delivers X teratons of firepower, C-14 Impaler rifle shots penetrate through X meters of concrete, or flames fired from Perdition Flame Throwers can melt a few dozen of cubic meters of ice in X seconds.

How is it moot that there are actually calcable instances that can be used in versus debates?

OK, then look at it in this way - in one universe someone makes up a weapon, that can destroy a whole planet, literally. In second one, someone makes up a weapon, that can barely "drill" to the planet's core. Now, the first guy states, that his weapon delivers firepower of teratons, and the other one, that his weapon has firepower well above petatons. So what should we believe in in situations like this? And why not call one of those guys a liar?

Because the difference will be that someone will actually back up their claims with proof from the actual canon as opposed to the person who appears to be pulling crap out of his ass without anything substantial to back it up.


As far as I know, even in those books there are information that exclude each other, e.g. in terms of the length of Imperial Navy ships.

Fabrick of the Imperium along with some of the Battlefleet Gothic Rulebooks help establish fleet numbers.


SC races can tolerate some level of casualties.
The same level of casualties that the Imperium of Man tolerates on its Tuesday Brunch?

During Great War, Terrans lost many planets, and yet they are still fine.

Got any hard numbers as to how many planets they lost and how it would equate the Imperiums level of tolerance for loss?

Protoss are in a bit worse situation, but they still can deliver firepower of enough might to penetrate the whole planet, to its core (in that case, even the fact that tomb complexes are underground, won't help them).

Based on what evidence?


But they still do exist.

Again. Because of some divine intervention of a Tyranid fleet being so damn close to some pre-existing Imperium owned planet, that they figured that was a much bigger threat than the Tau were. The point, is had it not been for that level of divine plot intervention, The Tau would have certainly been annihilated to hell.


It puts the vehicle into some kinda force field.

Last I checked it was electromagnetic by nature.


There you assume, that they need to run into many races at once, while invading one planet. Didn't doan_m explain to me, that conflicts like that in Dark Crusade aren't common?

Uhh no. When I mean that conflicts like the one in DC aren't common, what I mean is that you don't see THAT many races gather to fight for a single planet all at once. On the galactic scale, encounters with other races will happen in extreme liklihood.


Maybe, but haaaardly.

Your original intent:
I would say that StarCraft races would probably lose, but this result is not so certain, and even if they would've lost, it wouldn't be a slaughter. Many WH40k fans underestimate SC races (often showing, that they know little about them), while overestimating those of WH40k universe.


This won't change the fact, that Terrans, or Protoss, or Zerg, would remain a thorn.
Assuming of course that they can actually hold the same parity of technological capability and size as any of the other “thorns” up against the Imperium. The Tau come to mind again.

Probably. Or they would launch local equivalent of Damocles Gulf Crusade, just in order to cease it halfway because of another threat.

Wait a minute, are you conceding that the Starcraft races would most definitely lose without a divine plot intervention? Because that's exactly what I see here.

doan_m Senior Member


Tau still exist, anyway. So why shouldn't another small empire - something like Terran Dominion or UED - exist there.
You'd have to assume, first of all that the Terran Dominon or the UED would be on par with the Tau in technology and that by the time that they would get noticed they wouldn't invoke the wrath of the Imperium. There would also have to be the assumption that the Imperium wouldn't have some damnable Tyranid fleet distracting them. But most importantly, if any of those forces even want to hold ground, there would have to be assumption that the worlds it would take would never be contested by any of the Imperium's enemies or that they even have the military capability of actually repelling any of those invaders from their own worlds. While the Tau possess some level of ability to defend their worlds from those incursions, the Terran would most certainly not.


Still, there is no telling, how many of those broods are there. Basing on the number of ingame player colours is a moot point.
How is he basing his claim off of ingame numbers pray tell?


So what is it exactly that prevented them from rebuilding that technology and further development?
Common brainwashing performed by Adeptus Ministorum?

It was the Iron men rebellion that really did them in. And then you have a Warp filled with daemons just gleefully waiting for moments to exploit humanity and spill forth into the real world. That would ruin all kinds of crap for the Imperium and still does. Theres also something you should note about technological advancement in the Imperium. You see in most other universes, if they screw up a technological advancement of some sort, the scientist could just simply shrug their shoulders and just move on to either correct their mistake or just make something else. Something that the Imperium can't do mainly because a mistake can very much lead to “****! ITS EATING MY FACE!!!”(hint hint, Warp). Which is why any attempts to make a technological advancement are done in the most secure places possible with the top scientist under heavy guard. Oh yeah and then theres the mention of all those enemies running all kinds of merry hell around the galaxy.

I meant Xel'Naga, not the Protoss.

Are we bringing up other far gone races again? I don't really have to cite the DaOT humans again do I? Or even better, the Necrons at their full height when they've had all kinds of C'tan eating up Suns like candy?


So much for theory, what about practice?

Unless you have the means to manipulate reality to actually stage those two to fight against each other, then theirs no way in hell you can even bring up “practice”


If a single battlebarge, with around 300 Space Marines as a land strike force, is considered to be an expedition suitable for conquering an entire planet, where six other factions are fighting, then I'm not so sure about those thousands of them.
While Bleak would exaggerate just how much they would send against something of such insignificance, there wouldn't even be a need to send that many forces in the first place.

And what's 300 men in power armours, if single Terran Dominion (hell, why TD already, Kel-Morian Combine or Umojan Protectorate would be enough) can send thousands of them?[/QUOTE
Power armor. Its not built equal.

[QUOTE]
Okay, I get it.
But what about it? They were ravaged many times, and still they were able to wage war.


Who? The Terrans? Because if so, I don't ever recall any instances in their history of their war against the Protoss or Zerg where they were devestated to the point where they actually lost any technology.


They would, but not into all races at once.

Would they even need to? Any of those other races can pretty much stomp all over any of those SC races.


Because?

Psychics are considered portals for deamons, which is always why they have to be so damn careful about it.


Well, yeah. But, like you said, they mostly remain in stasis.
The ones that already have emerged are already a massive threat to the Imperium.

So the real question is how many of them would emerge. And even if they slaughtered everyone on a planet, losing one planet is still not a tragedy for Terrans.
But guess which side would feel the losses more out of the two?


What weapons do they have?

Gauss weapons capable of stripping down materials at the molecular level, lightning arc guns capable of bypassing most shields, hulls capable of self repair(think a T-1000 on a starship level scale that can withstand freakish 40k level starship firepower. The higher up ships are even worse. The Tombships are capable of emitting a psychic field that drives crew members insane. Oh yeah and thats not even mentioning their FTL capababilities which is described as being able to cross a galaxy in the amount of time it takes for a man to blink.


I REMEMBER.

So why bring up the oxidizing part as if it were the prevalent part of my argument?


That's something new.

Is it? Because I just pulled it from a few pages back.

Look, you accuse me, that I hide behind lack of evidence, but you, on the other hand, are using that lack of evidence.
Yeah but when I use “a lack of evidence” I'm usually doing it to point out that basing an argument on a lack of evidence is not good form? Or would you like to quote my instead and point out where exactly have I hid behind a lack of evidence?


What instance with Firebats shall I come up with, if there are not many of them, such as those above?
You find a novel where Firebat firepower is demonstrated, bring it to the debate and then surmise from there, with reasonable analysis what it is capable of and what it means to a 40k vs SCdebate.

doan_m Senior Member

And now, you try to say for certain, that Promethium is something of firepower well above than SC plasma fuel - just because there are no such instances on the other side?
Because I see absolutely zero evidence that has been brought up to the debate that has led me to believe otherwise?


Which is not determined by the level of firepower the SC races deliver, but the fact, that people, who create fanfic or novels, simply do not want to make up such miracles?

Glassing of Chau Sara? Brood War intro? Dragoon Raid of a Terran Base cinematic? And had it been canon, the SC Ghost intro. Believe it or not, Starcraft novels actually does hace instances that actually shows the firepower of what weapons are capable of. 40K is not the only one that actually has demonstable instances that can be used to get a benchmark. The various Star Wars novels have it, the Hyperion novels have it, and hell some obscure Tiberium novel that I can barely remember has it as well.

What's the point of such discussion, if I have just to listen to all those instances, and remain silent in answer?

You're the one who went in here arguing in favor of Starcraft here. It would be your job of course to be able to substantiate your claims with reasonable evidence and bring it to the debate. My part in this debate is to contest your claims in favor of 40k with the evidence that i've found and put it up against your claims. That's how common and proper debate forms go.


The question is, if they really decided to use one of those Titans against Terrans, if - as it is told - there are many greater threats for Imperium.

Actually I only brought up Titans to handily establish that 40k has superior ground level firepower. Something tells me that the Terrans would be of little threat that they wouldn't even consider bringing a titan to the fight.
And those few hundreds, for an empire of million of worlds, is not many. Hell, I admit, that those Titans are big trouble for SC races (just like the firepower of Imperial Navy), but still, they need to decide to use them in the first place.

A few hundred was an absolute minimum figure that I derived from the average number of known legions and how many titans there are per legion. And when one considers the absurd firepower of the Legion along with its durability its of no wonder that its only sent to the biggest possible cluster****s in the galaxy.


More or less.
Except all evidence is to the contrary. They actually HAVE instances that are quantifiable. Whether Blizzard had done it deliberately or not is absolutely irrelevant. Hell, the moment that they so much as mentioned hyper velocity Gauss rounds there just begging for their firepower to be quantified in hard numbers. Hell you can even take a look at this instance in I,Mengsk:
The bark of automatic weapon fire roared from somewhere nearby. The noise was so loud it was impossible to pinpoint the source of it, but Arcturus thought it was coming from this floor.

He heard booted footsteps and more shouts. Arcturus hauled on his mother's hand as more shooting exploded nearby. The wooden frame around the bedroom door splintered as gunfire tore through it. Everyone screamed and dropped to the floor. Arcturus covered his ears as a clatter of metal and wood rained down from the shattered door.

A twisted spike of silver rolled across the carpet, a thin cone of metal as thick as the tip of his pinkie. Arcturus recognized it immediately: ammunition fired from a military-grade assault rifle. A C-14 gauss rifle, to be precise. An Impaler.


And then there's this in Liberty's Crusade:

At the top of the arc Mike pulled the trigger, and a volley of spikes splattered the zergling. Those that passed through its body embedded in the metal ceiling of the hallway.

Now, why in the world that would come of as unquantifiable despite that we see a Gauss rifle shredding doors and over penetrating zerglings would come off as unquantifiable is beyond me.

While there is no analogical instance in SC fanfic, it remains hard to compare.
Why would you think so?


Even read a novel where a Firebat tried to melt a certain amount of ice? Because I didn't. And I really can't say, what is its capability, should I compare meltagun to it.

And that's why you think so. You don't have to have the firebat melt a certain amount of ice. What matters is that its calcable and that it comes out to the same unit of measurement that the meltagun comes out.


So what kind of ammo does Leman Russ use, should we compare them?

NOT plasma. The ammo, while helpful in analysis, in this case we would have to look at the end result of whatever it fired on.


So now I can tell too, that you are hiding behind lack of evidence?

No. Because i'm not hiding behind anything the lack of evidence. I'm contesting the evidence in question that would lead one to believe that bracing for the recoil would be indicative of its firepower without any idea as to WHAT its bracing itself against exactly.

Still can't see the nonesense of this discussion?

What nonsense is their to it? Aside from the fact that its a Starcraft vs 40k internet debate, what makes it so damn nonsensical to compare the two?


That instance may sound cool, but what it means in practice? Nothing.

No. It means that the gun in question would be capable of flying right through concrete, overpenetrating people, be a pain in the ass for armor divisions had it been put up to practice, despite its relatively small size. THATS what it means. Saying it would mean nothing is just absurd since it presents a signficant imbalance of power.

How to compare this instance, of a rifle firing bullets, that are flying through whole tank, like its polimer armour was a paper, to any instance from WH40k? How to determine AGM-42 actual firepower, basing on it?

Remember what I said about the firebat? A few quotes up?


Yes. Strange, isn't it?

Absolutely.


This doesn't change the fact, that when I try to imagine Son Goku, fighting ships of Imperial Navy, it makes me laugh aloud.

Still doesn't change the fact that its still a comparison and a rough idea of the outcome. Personal emotional responses irrelevant.


And I said about SC armours then.

You basically tried to establish that infantry killing weapons would penetrate 40k weapons in that quote.


That they don't care forming tiraliers, but march in swarms?

Again what would that even mean about the density of the Zerg units in question. That was the original questions and how it would help establish the number of Zerg per triangle.


That was not a standard invasion, that was a flood, caused by emitter. Probably even Cerebrates hardly controlled that, as the Zerg simply sensed that emitter and rushed in its direction.

Yet Mutalisk in that instance still had the decency to travel in close swarms. Close enough that they could be well established by the Terran sensors as single entity/red triangle.

doan_m Senior Member


They were stupid in that instance.

Uh huh. And in their stupidity they somehow manage to distribute/organize themselves enough that they could actually literally blanket the whole planet? Somehow managed to have their mutalisk flying into formation, thereby showing that they can segregate their numbers?
They just ran to the place where emmiter was set, and were destroying everything, what stood in their path.
Calling whatever is in their path does not establish stupidity either. Especially considering that for the most part, destroying things in their path is a norm for the Zerg.
Heres something else to consider when considering that instance in Antiga Prime. They also knew damn well enough to form spearheads on the surface and at the same time, were repelled by the Protoss charging their weapons in preparations to burn the world. So not only do we notice an instance of the Zerg capable of forming formations, they also know that they have to run the hell away when they notice that the Protoss were charging their weapons. Something very contrary to a simple “mindless” rush to an Emitter device.

It was possible then to avoid their attack, staying out of their way (but, as Liberty noticed, Confederates of Delta Squadron were stupid enough to fly right in their way).
The actions of Delta Squadron does not correlate to the intelligence of the Zerg.


Only in case of firepower.
Therefore making them far more signficantly advanced(I'm bringing up the main original argument which you were disputing)
And materials. If they have the capability to withstand that kind of firepower then there hulls have to be hellishly advanced as well. Its built sort of like a conventional naval ships but the materials behind its delivery systems and hulls are magnitudes above ours that its s


Give me some modification for battleships, that would make them something more than a slow and cumbersome artillery platform, easy to take out through air strikes and maneuvering, and inferior in terms of accuracy and efficiency than rocket artillery with precise targetting systems.

And how would you know that Total Annihilation doesn't have that? They actually do posses the means to repel air forces will enough to make themselves viable(inexpensive in comparision as well.
Hint hint: Pelicans.


Logistics is but a single factor.

A factor that means a significant shitload to war and what it entails. With that kind of logic I ought to dismiss strategy because its just a “single factor”


Now, how should it disappear? Just give those aeroplanes a torpedo launchers and battleship will be smashed.
Which would mean making a hell of a presumption on the firepower of Total Anniliation since you'd have to produce a weapon that's capable of outputting more firepower then conventional nukes put out. And while we are playing this “hypothetical situation” game, I could just merely add some sufficient guided missile defenses per ship and be off with those damn aeroplanes.

Sure, maybe he can suffer some damage without being destroyed, but there is usually much, much more aeroplanes, than battleships, as they are being built faster and at a smaller expenses of resources.
Only relative to the needs of the commander. For all I care the commander can be on a water world where the need for Naval assets outweigh the need for air assets.


This won't be changed because of the fact, that battleships are greater and need more resources to be built at all in the first place.

In significance to the modern world where that disparity is a lot more massive?


Didn't you listen, to what I were saying?

Didn't you listen to me when I was saying that trying to establish TA logic to the modern world was silly as well?
quote: (post)


Because it's more cool. But they are still nonsenses, should we discuss it more seriously, rather than having fun by playing those.

And a fault that ALL of science fiction possesses but you seem so horribly fixated on singling out TA for having some level of fault that's at best only slightly flawed despite the universes that we are arguing that are even worse with covnentional logic.


I'm talking about situation, where rivals are equal.

So in otherwords, you have to nitpick a specific skirmish with specific tactics in order to drive your point home instead of looking at the general grand strategy of it?

If they are not, what's the point of one player beating the other, using pieces of junk, and achieveing success only because although he was losing tons of those pieces, he was also able to build them more quickly, than his enemy was?
Yeah i'm having a hard time following this line of reasoning. The point is to..... win?


Because of what?]
How often will you expect a tyranid fleet to intervene on your behalf to save you from total annihilation. Even better. How would not expect that Tyranid fleet to not notice your side?

Yoda2287 Junior Member

Warhammer would OWN StarCraft. Warload titans can not be beaten. I Laugh when I see a StarCraft unit in a video or when some one is playing it. Because they are SUCH Rip-Offs of 40k units.

Der_SpeeDer Member
Originally posted by doan_m
[B]Then good for them?

Yeeeeeees?

Originally posted by doan_m
the guardsmen also has a greater advantage in urban warfare since there not hampered down by a massive suit that would not slow them down and would allow them to fit in smaller areas.

The Guardsmen would hardly use that advantage because of the fact, that Terran Marines' power armours are equipped with movement sensors, making them hard to surprise.

Originally posted by doan_m
Brood War intro begs to differ.

Remind Wabowski's death scene then.

Originally posted by doan_m
It can however, be certainly done.

Somehow, but still not too accurate.

Originally posted by doan_m
How is it moot that there are actually calcable instances that can be used in versus debates?

Ice is not too powerful target, to calculate weapon's firepower.

Originally posted by doan_m
Because the difference will be that someone will actually back up their claims with proof from the actual canon as opposed to the person who appears to be pulling crap out of his ass without anything substantial to back it up.

Hey, some time ago, you stated, that you would agree, if someone wrote (in a novel e.g.), that Yamato Cannon delivers X teratons of firepower, and Blizzard would consider it canon.

Originally posted by doan_m
The same level of casualties that the Imperium of Man tolerates on its Tuesday Brunch?

How the hell would I know? Confederacy was ready to sacrifice a few planets, only to learn more about their opponents.

Originally posted by doan_m
Based on what evidence?

Breaking through whole Chau Sara, and making the magma from its very core go to the surface through those breaks.

Originally posted by doan_m
Again. Because of some divine intervention of a Tyranid fleet being so damn close to some pre-existing Imperium owned planet, that they figured that was a much bigger threat than the Tau were.

If we consider, that SC races appear in WH40k universe, then why would it be impossible to happen to them?

Originally posted by doan_m
Your original intent:

I'm never sure about the result of such ecounter.

Originally posted by doan_m
Assuming of course that they can actually hold the same parity of technological capability and size as any of the other “thorns” up against the Imperium. The Tau come to mind again.

And Kroot - bloody primitive race, that somehow exists in WH40k universe, and is even capable of winning battles (even against Space Marines).

Originally posted by doan_m
Wait a minute, are you conceding that the Starcraft races would most definitely lose without a divine plot intervention? Because that's exactly what I see here.

In what situation? If you're talking about those 5000 battle barges, then yes, they would. But if you're talking about strike force, like those from Dawn of War and its addons, then they certainly wouldn't.

Originally posted by doan_m
You'd have to assume, first of all that the Terran Dominon or the UED would be on par with the Tau in technology and that by the time that they would get noticed they wouldn't invoke the wrath of the Imperium. There would also have to be the assumption that the Imperium wouldn't have some damnable Tyranid fleet distracting them. But most importantly, if any of those forces even want to hold ground, there would have to be assumption that the worlds it would take would never be contested by any of the Imperium's enemies or that they even have the military capability of actually repelling any of those invaders from their own worlds. While the Tau possess some level of ability to defend their worlds from those incursions, the Terran would most certainly not.

OK. And how many worlds do Tau have BTW?

Originally posted by doan_m
How is he basing his claim off of ingame numbers pray tell?

I just said it in case he would like to do that.

Originally posted by doan_m
Something that the Imperium can't do mainly because a mistake can very much lead to “****! ITS EATING MY FACE!!!”(hint hint, Warp).

Errr... introduce me into details, I'm ingorant in that case.
Well what, that some freakish daemon devours his soul?

Originally posted by doan_m
Are we bringing up other far gone races again?

I just brought this up in order to remind, what the Zerg are capable of, and what is the cost of the mistake, that is underestimating them. Xel'Naga were the first to pay that price, and even their powers and knowledge didn't help them.

Originally posted by doan_m
Who? The Terrans? Because if so, I don't ever recall any instances in their history of their war against the Protoss or Zerg where they were devestated to the point where they actually lost any technology.

Bleak was talking about the current status of the SC races (after Omega battle), and that it would be madness to wage any war, when they are licking their wounds.
In case of devastation, the Protoss were forced off their homeworld, and to rebuild their civilization anew.
But the main question is, that "now" in SC universe, is rather the condition of races is StarCraft 2 (along with their new weapons, such as Protoss' Void Ray), not the end of SC1.

Originally posted by doan_m
Psychics are considered portals for deamons, which is always why they have to be so damn careful about it.

There you assume, that SC races would no goddamn way learn how to be careful. If humans were able to do so, and Eldar did not wholly shift to the Dark Eldar, then why wouldn't Terran Ghosts or Protoss evade the Chaos influence?

Originally posted by doan_m
But guess which side would feel the losses more out of the two?

Well, how many of those Necrons emerge annually? If it's rare, then sacrificing one colony, and then bringing in Behemoths in order to perform nuclear barrage, is still no tragedy for UED, and even for Dominion. It's not a tragedy, because they may establish a new colony easily in those few years, between first Necrons' emerge and the second one. Things would look different, if it happened often.
And of course, Terrans still live on planets of "their" universe, where there were no C'tan, and there are no Necrons underground on Tarsonis or Dylar IV. But that's a detail.

Originally posted by doan_m
So why bring up the oxidizing part as if it were the prevalent part of my argument?

See the last point of my interests.

Originally posted by doan_m
Is it? Because I just pulled it from a few pages back.

Sorry, obviosly forgot about this one.

Originally posted by doan_m
Glassing of Chau Sara?

Chau Sara was not only glassed, it was perforated right to its core. Need to remind you, when I used this as an argument, you stated, that they don't deliver such firepower too often. Regardless of the fact, that you have no info, how often.

Originally posted by doan_m
Brood War intro?

What about it? I didn't see any ice there, so that it can be melted by Firebat's flamethrower (but it was shown, that explosion of his backpack made him fly). And dirty ground in the trenches isn't good target for that flamethrower, should me calculate its firepower. Oh, and it was shown, that Zergling's hide is so thick, that it can repel whole bursts from Gauss rifle (that Marine fired over 100 projectiles before his ammo ran out), which is useless, because that rifle's penetration power and thickness of Zergling's hide is both relative, because they are both something fictional.

Originally posted by doan_m
Dragoon Raid of a Terran Base cinematic?

Well, what? That that Dragoon turned human into ashes instantly? They are armed with disintegrator weaponry - it would be a poor one, if it wouldn't be able to pulverize an unarmoured human.
Protoss, BTW, have the most powerful weaponry in SC universe, that is based on psionic energy (and thus would ignore standard armour) or on antimatter (Dragoon's disruptor or Scout's missiles). Yet when someone mentioned this, it somehow didn't convince you.

Originally posted by doan_m
And had it been canon, the SC Ghost intro.

They were just fighting the Zerg there, not demonstating, what remarkable pieces of technology they have. The only one thing, that may be of our interest, is that Siege Tanks are obviously mighty and powerful, and their movement is making the ground shake, if Marine captain was able to mistake Zerg wave's movement for them.

Originally posted by doan_m
Believe it or not, Starcraft novels actually does hace instances that actually shows the firepower of what weapons are capable of.

They don't show its full firepower yet. They don't show the border of its capabilities (like WH40k lasgun - we know, that it won't get deeper into the conrete, than 6 meters). Melting ice or penetrating through wood is not convincing, because they are not durable sunstances at all, and they don't show in full spectrum, what the weapon is capable of.

Der_SpeeDer Member
Originally posted by doan_m
You're the one who went in here arguing in favor of Starcraft here. It would be your job of course to be able to substantiate your claims with reasonable evidence and bring it to the debate.

I did not fully realize, of what topic I am entering. And I knew less about WH40k, than about SC. That's why I didn't predict, that it will develop to this level.

Originally posted by doan_m
Except all evidence is to the contrary. They actually HAVE instances that are quantifiable.

Oh, yeah? So what's really so quantifiable in that instance from "I, Mengsk".
The noise? Old gunpowder from middle-ages produced it in considerable "amount" - two spoons of it, used just to load a gun, was enough to turn your ears off for a few moments.
The penetration of a wooden door? What about it? Like I said, wood is not a durable material, enough for us to measure the firepower of a gun, that penetrated it wholly.

Originally posted by doan_m
And then there's this in Liberty's Crusade

Zergling's armour is 'made' of fictional material. You want to measure firepower of something, that does not exist, using something, that does not exist as well?

Originally posted by doan_m
NOT plasma.

Then what? Neo-trotile? Super-hyper-future-ultra-gunpowder?

Originally posted by doan_m
The ammo, while helpful in analysis, in this case we would have to look at the end result of whatever it fired on.

[QUOTE=12405279]Originally posted by doan_m
No. Because i'm not hiding behind anything the lack of evidence. I'm contesting the evidence in question that would lead one to believe that bracing for the recoil would be indicative of its firepower without any idea as to WHAT its bracing itself against exactly.

Something that can make ground shaking, when it moves (StarCraft: Ghost intro)?

Originally posted by doan_m
No. It means that the gun in question would be capable of flying right through concrete, overpenetrating people, be a pain in the ass for armor divisions had it been put up to practice, despite its relatively small size. THATS what it means. Saying it would mean nothing is just absurd since it presents a signficant imbalance of power.

I still think, that it means nothing. I think so, because M1 Abrams' armour is made of polimer armour (or titanium alloy, I'm not sure), that is highly durable today, but would be most probably useless in distant future (yet maybe it's not so certain, since I've learned, that Space Marine Scout's armour is made of carbon-titanium alloy, and is described to be able to repel small-arms fire).

Originally posted by doan_m
You basically tried to establish that infantry killing weapons would penetrate 40k weapons in that quote.

Nope. I tried to establish, that effect caused by Lockdown is probably long in time, as Ghost may use a weapon, that is designed for killing infantry, to destroy an armoured vehicle from SC, before that vehicle regains ability to move. And doing such thing, if even possible, would be time-consuming.
Yet this is based on game mechanics.

Originally posted by doan_m
Again what would that even mean about the density of the Zerg units in question. That was the original questions and how it would help establish the number of Zerg per triangle.

It means, that single triangle cannot be a single Zerg, or a small bunch of them, because they march in swarms. No in single units, no in small squads.

Originally posted by doan_m
Uh huh. And in their stupidity they somehow manage to distribute/organize themselves enough that they could actually literally blanket the whole planet?

If a shitload of them marches to one place at one time, then how wouldn't they blanket a planet? They can't compress themselves, so all those millions of them might be able to gather around the emmiter on a small surface, so they cover more and more of the planet's surface. as they arrive.

Originally posted by doan_m
Somehow managed to have their mutalisk flying into formation, thereby showing that they can segregate their numbers?

They did? I'll have to check it.

Originally posted by doan_m
Calling whatever is in their path does not establish stupidity either. Especially considering that for the most part, destroying things in their path is a norm for the Zerg.

It is a norm for them as well to destroy not only things in their path, but in their sight. And they simply ignored everything, that was away, although they could destroy it easily.
Besides, flooding the planet in few hours is definitely not a norm for them. They just infest it and consume local resources.

Originally posted by doan_m
So not only do we notice an instance of the Zerg capable of forming formations, they also know that they have to run the hell away when they notice that the Protoss were charging their weapons. Something very contrary to a simple “mindless” rush to an Emitter device.

It was mentioned, as well, that they were gathering around that emmiter. It means, that even if they created formations, they were eventually joining that huge swarm, focused in one place. A swarm, that was later described to cover almost whole planet.

Originally posted by doan_m
Therefore making them far more signficantly advanced

But does not change at all the proportion between the armour and delivered firepower, which means, that even bloody expensive future battleships may be still sunk by future torpedoes, used by future aeroplanes.

Originally posted by doan_m
And how would you know that Total Annihilation doesn't have that?

I'm talking about battleships' weaponry. And I see, that they have standard guns, that indeed have greater firepower, but aren't more accurate at all, that artillery from WWI. What's better, such battleship's guns, that rely on the gravity, but have also to be wary of the influence of such things, as wind, or long range missiles, like contemporary Tomahawk, that will hit the target precisely, and deliver great firepower as well?

Originally posted by doan_m
A factor that means a significant shitload to war and what it entails. With that kind of logic I ought to dismiss strategy because its just a “single factor”

Development of logistics will never make wasting resources meaningless. Even if you state, that resources are limitless, then you are wasting precious time. And even if you state, that a new battleship can be made in few minutes, then each minute matters, because it may mean, that one army has already two times more ships, that enemy has.

Originally posted by doan_m
Which would mean making a hell of a presumption on the firepower of Total Anniliation since you'd have to produce a weapon that's capable of outputting more firepower then conventional nukes put out.

If weapons of such firepower are common in TA universe, then I still don't see the problem.

Originally posted by doan_m
And while we are playing this “hypothetical situation” game, I could just merely add some sufficient guided missile defenses per ship and be off with those damn aeroplanes.

And why should be missiles used just as anti-air means in the first place? Why do they still have battleships with anachronic cannons, instead of missile weaponry?

Originally posted by doan_m
In significance to the modern world where that disparity is a lot more massive?

It isn't. And if you think different, then try to compare, how many tons of metal do you need, to build a hull of a battleship, and how many tons of metal do you need to build a hull of air bomber (hint: size).

Originally posted by doan_m
And a fault that ALL of science fiction possesses but you seem so horribly fixated on singling out TA for having some level of fault that's at best only slightly flawed despite the universes that we are arguing that are even worse with covnentional logic.

The question is, that I decided to point that flaw in the first place, just for fun. I remember, that someone laghed at it, when one of our computer magazines stated, that TA is "the most compact and the most logical view of the future warfare" (in a letter to that magazine, where he also compared TA and SC).

Der_SpeeDer Member
Originally posted by doan_m
So in otherwords, you have to nitpick a specific skirmish with specific tactics in order to drive your point home instead of looking at the general grand strategy of it?

Because it is the best situation to compare, which strategy is more efficient.

Originally posted by doan_m
Yeah i'm having a hard time following this line of reasoning. The point is to..... win?

See above. If someone won the war just because of the fact, that he has a lot more materials, while his strategy was a crap, why should we commend him for that strategy?

Originally posted by doan_m
How often will you expect a tyranid fleet to intervene on your behalf to save you from total annihilation. Even better. How would not expect that Tyranid fleet to not notice your side?

It happened. Thus you can't exclude, that IoM would cease a crusade because of similar threat. Not only Tyranid threat. Also Necron threat. Exceptionally mighty Black Crusade threat.

Originally posted by Yoda2287
I Laugh when I see a StarCraft unit in a video or when some one is playing it. Because they are SUCH Rip-Offs of 40k units.

U-huh. Yes, that follows.

doan_m Senior Member

Yeeeeeees?

You're the one who posed the question as to what should happen should the weapon appear to have more pentrating power. What other possible answer could you possibly expect?


The Guardsmen would hardly use that advantage because of the fact, that Terran Marines' power armours are equipped with movement sensors, making them hard to surprise.

And where pray tell in that quote did I ever mention surprise attacks? And how does the fact that the Guardsmen would not be stymied by some massive armor in urban warfare have anything to do with them “not using that advantage” in the first place?

Remind Wabowski's death scene then.
So how does his being killed by being shot in the gas tank have anything to do with the claim that the Zerg attacks between the slits of armor?

Somehow, but still not too accurate.

sufficiently accurate enough for something like this debate where it can be reasonably established as to what is the superior.

Ice is not too powerful target, to calculate weapon's firepower.

Dude. Three states of matter. Solid, liquid, gas. It went through all three of those states in a single flash burst instance and that takes a shitload of energy to do that. Especially to a dozen cubic meters of that. And the “power” of ice is pretty much I-freaking-rrelevant. What you want is the durability of it and how much energy it takes for it to change its state. Something very much well established in that instance in “Caves of Ice”

Hey, some time ago, you stated, that you would agree, if someone wrote (in a novel e.g.), that Yamato Cannon delivers X teratons of firepower, and Blizzard would consider it canon.

So how does that ever refute what I said? Pulling crap out of your ass means that you essentially gave non-canon or made up sources. Pulling canon sources is not and perfectly valid.

How the hell would I know? Confederacy was ready to sacrifice a few planets, only to learn more about their opponents.

Which says nothing about their ability to tolerate losses.

Breaking through whole Chau Sara, and making the magma from its very core go to the surface through those breaks.

Guess what? You don't even need to go that deep into the Earth to get a large amount of magma.

If we consider, that SC races appear in WH40k universe, then why would it be impossible to happen to them?

Because the Imperium actually has successfully exterminated xenos species in the past?

And Kroot - bloody primitive race, that somehow exists in WH40k universe, and is even capable of winning battles (even against Space Marines).

Has it occurred to you that them being aligned with the Tau also has something to do with it? And that they can be as sneaky, if not sneakier then the Eldar can?

In what situation? If you're talking about those 5000 battle barges, then yes, they would. But if you're talking about strike force, like those from Dawn of War and its addons, then they certainly wouldn't.

The situation that I mentioned in that last post. A divine plot intervention like that from the Tyranids that stopped the Damocles Crusade in its tracks. Basically the implication i'm getting is that the only way the crusade would have to stop is if some greater threat intervenes on your behalf or something.

OK. And how many worlds do Tau have BTW?

A dense 300 lightyears worth of worlds at least.

I just said it in case he would like to do that.

So its an argument well outside of relevant context while also being unreasonably pre-emptive.


Errr... introduce me into details, I'm ingorant in that case.
Well what, that some freakish daemon devours his soul?

Yes that. Exactly that.

I just brought this up in order to remind, what the Zerg are capable of, and what is the cost of the mistake, that is underestimating them. Xel'Naga were the first to pay that price, and even their powers and knowledge didn't help them.

a good amount of it also had to do with them cherishing all life and refusing to kill them at first. Something that the Imperium is actually very willing to do.

Bleak was talking about the current status of the SC races (after Omega battle), and that it would be madness to wage any war, when they are licking their wounds.
In case of devastation, the Protoss were forced off their homeworld, and to rebuild their civilization anew.

My point of asking that was to ask if any of those races have ever fought anything that is of the same magnitude that The Imperium has fought and survived. See, by asking that, the proper answer would simply tell if any of those races could survive anything of 40k level. Because while they may have been ravaged many times from their own wars, what makes it plausible that they could even survive anything on the 40k level?

There you assume, that SC races would no goddamn way learn how to be careful.
The initial learning process would be so costly to their own kin that they should really consider retreating from the 40k universe.

If humans were able to do so, and Eldar did not wholly shift to the Dark Eldar, then why wouldn't Terran Ghosts or Protoss evade the Chaos influence?

Interesting thing to note. Humans may be able to do so but that never guarantees full survival from the warp/chaos. Its why they are always kept under extremely heavy watch and are always under some level of scrutiny from the Inquisition. Humans also possess some level of technology that to some degrees, actually protect from the Warp. Something that the Protoss would certainly not have.

Oh yeah, and the Eldar were during their Empire, very susceptible to chaos. So vulnerable in fact that it turned the Eldar an endangered species. The birth of a chaos god in tune with the Eldar will do that.

Well, how many of those Necrons emerge annually? If it's rare, then sacrificing one colony, and then bringing in Behemoths in order to perform nuclear barrage, is still no tragedy for UED, and even for Dominion. It's not a tragedy, because they may establish a new colony easily in those few years, between first Necrons' emerge and the second one. Things would look different, if it happened often.

Your missing the point. If the Terrans were to bombard one of their worlds it would be a much more significant dent in their Empire compared to that of the Imperium. And bombarding a planet that's full of Necrons is still not enough. Especially when its considered that there are also portals underground that takes Necrons off to other worlds and that they certainly can be disturbed again even after a planetary bombardment.

See the last point of my interests.
and? What does that have to do with it?

Chau Sara was not only glassed, it was perforated right to its core. Need to remind you, when I used this as an argument, you stated, that they don't deliver such firepower too often. Regardless of the fact, that you have no info, how often.

And they still don't. Definitely not on the level of the Imperium that has that kind of firepower distributed all round. And why would you apply it to that context when I was contesting your claim that the SC devs don't apparently “make up such miracles” when there are plenty of citable instances that are stil very much quantifiable(and actually have been by other people)

What about it? I didn't see any ice there, so that it can be melted by Firebat's flamethrower (but it was shown, that explosion of his backpack made him fly).
And what does Ice have to do with this? Any other object is still fine so long as we know the temperatures or amount of energy that it takes to change the state of an object.

And dirty ground in the trenches isn't good target for that flamethrower, should me calculate its firepower.
Only if you could actually see the matter change from that flamethrower and what time frame it changes then go right ahead. Thing is though that Brood War does not have that.

Oh, and it was shown, that Zergling's hide is so thick, that it can repel whole bursts from Gauss rifle (that Marine fired over 100 projectiles before his ammo ran out),

He also fired in ridiculous strafes with no sense of fire discipline whatsoever at a target that was within a freaking trench only a few meters away. Hell most of the bullets didn't even hit the targets(if they even hit at all) and even worse, the ammo ran out way too damn quickly. Oh and by the way, even though it was incorrect, you just quantified one of the “miracles” right there. Thank goodness that Gauss rifles come in multiple variants otherwise I'd have had to blanket label that moment of stupid on every other Gauss rifle out there >_>

which is useless, because that rifle's penetration power and thickness of Zergling's hide is both relative, because they are both something fictional.

Its fictional therefore it can't be quantified. Rrriiggght.... We just saw what the rifles was capable of(or lack of), we know what rounds it shoots, what size it is and at what rough speeds it shoots its bullets at. We also know that the Zerg can be stunned by a moving jeep in other cutscenes and that grenade fire that hardly kicks up any dirt within a confined trench(brood war intro again) is sufficient to penetrate and outright kill the Zergling. So how is that not grounds for something to be established?

Well, what? That that Dragoon turned human into ashes instantly?

You just quantified another one of those “miracles” again. Your just enforcing my points now instead of disproving them.

doan_m Senior Member

They are armed with disintegrator weaponry - it would be a poor one, if it wouldn't be able to pulverize an unarmoured human.

A bit redundant that point don't you think? It would basically be like me saying that “yeah that M-16 rifle would be a poor weapon if it wasn't able to kill people”

Protoss, BTW, have the most powerful weaponry in SC universe, that is based on psionic energy (and thus would ignore standard armour) or on antimatter (Dragoon's disruptor or Scout's missiles). Yet when someone mentioned this, it somehow didn't convince you.

Because i'm looking for quantifiable instances that could potentially establish just how much anti-matter is used in every shot. Either their version of anti-matter is somewhat based off of the real life version where several grains of it can cause a multi-kiloton explosion or it has its own nature exclusive to the Starcraft universe which requires that it can only be judged by seeing(or reading) the SC version of Anti-matter in action(Like science fiction and plasma). Hence why i'm not easily swayed by such arguments as “yeah its the most powerful ever”.

Oh yeah, another thing of note. Just because its really powerful in the respective universe would potentially mean piss all in the face of another.


They were just fighting the Zerg there, not demonstating, what remarkable pieces of technology they have. The only one thing, that may be of our interest, is that Siege Tanks are obviously mighty and powerful, and their movement is making the ground shake, if Marine captain was able to mistake Zerg wave's movement for them.

You do know that when I bring up all these instances, I am basically proving my point that SC actually does have its moments where things can be analyzed and quantified right? And that may be the only thing of interest to you. But I on the other hand see other quantifiable instances such as the Ultralisk flailing around, the Dropships getting hit by Mutalisk, The Marines generally opening fire on the Zerg, the kind of swarms to expect from the Zerg etc etc.

They don't show its full firepower yet.
So despite taking massive losses, losing worlds to their enemies and being knee deep in a long ass war, they decide “yeah lets not show our full firepower”. Hoh-kay then.....


They don't show the border of its capabilities (like WH40k lasgun - we know, that it won't get deeper into the conrete, than 6 meters).

They do. They really, really do. Their just not as reliable as the 40k figures that's all.

Melting ice or penetrating through wood is not convincing, because they are not durable sunstances at all, and they don't show in full spectrum, what the weapon is capable of.

Now why in the world would you need a full spectrum anyways? When even lower end calcs of anything are good enough to establish which is the superior weapon.

I did not fully realize, of what topic I am entering. And I knew less about WH40k, than about SC. That's why I didn't predict, that it will develop to this level.

Ugggh. Then learn from this at least to actually know both sides well enough before entering an argument.

Oh, yeah? So what's really so quantifiable in that instance from "I, Mengsk".

The noise? Old gunpowder from middle-ages produced it in considerable "amount" - two spoons of it, used just to load a gun, was enough to turn your ears off for a few moments.

Yeah, if you just going to argue the noise as if that were some means of qauntifying firepower of all things then I really ought to point out what can be quantified in that quote:
The wooden frame around the bedroom door splintered as gunfire tore through

So we see here that the door, the frame of the wooden door was splintered. That sounds nice on paper and while we know that a good number of modern weapons are capable of that, there's also this that really helps.

A twisted spike of silver rolled across the carpet, a thin cone of metal as thick as the tip of his pinkie. Arcturus recognized it immediately: ammunition fired from a military-grade assault rifle
Well look here, apparently the round that was being used was an extremely thin cone of metal that is quoted to be possessing the thickness of “tip of his pinkie” implicating that the round would have to be fired at extreme velocity in order to actually shred that door.

All right, for some reason you seem to be in disbelief that science fiction can be analyzed and quantified to allow for some reasonable level of comparision so i'll just point to another thread outside of this board where 40k is analyzed and quanitifed in extraneous details:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=121975&highlight=40k

The penetration of a wooden door? What about it? Like I said, wood is not a durable material, enough for us to measure the firepower of a gun, that penetrated it wholly.

So you are honestly going to dismiss wood as a means of quantifying the minimum capabilities on the basis that, the material is simply not durable even though it can be used as a benchmark to get an idea as to what the energy transfer is(especially when the size of the round is well established)?

Zergling's armour is 'made' of fictional material. You want to measure firepower of something, that does not exist, using something, that does not exist as well?

Absolutely. Especially if we can actually establish the capabilities of both fictional materials. You know what else does not exist either? Star Wars Turbolasers don't exist either, but there are actually engineers and physicist out there who have actually quanitifed the firepowers of said Turbolaser(Curtis Saxton and Mike Wong for reference sakes) and have produced hard numbers.

Then what? Neo-trotile? Super-hyper-future-ultra-gunpowder?

Taking out the last part of my sentence in response to that post must surrre help in producing that response >_>. So i'll just point it out again:

in this case we would have to look at the end result of whatever it fired on._

Something that can make ground shaking, when it moves (StarCraft: Ghost intro)?
A potential testament to size and engine power. NOT firepower.

I still think, that it means nothing. I think so, because M1 Abrams' armour is made of polimer armour (or titanium alloy, I'm not sure), that is highly durable today, but would be most probably useless in distant future

Yeah that's definitely not reasonable grounds to dismiss how quantifiable said gun is. The sword and shields that were so prominent in the middle ages are definitely useless in this day and age but shooting at the blasted thing with whatever high caliber modern day weapons that we use can still establish the very minimum of what its capable of penetrating.
Nope. I tried to establish, that effect caused by Lockdown is probably long in time, as Ghost may use a weapon, that is designed for killing infantry, to destroy an armoured vehicle from SC, before that vehicle regains ability to move. And doing such thing, if even possible, would be time-consuming.
Yeah, no where in that quote did you even mention armored vehicles from SC in that initial quote. And even then, you still have yet to even establish that infantry killing weapons are used to penetrate the vehicle armor even in the context of Starcraft beyond simple game mechanics.

Yet this is based on game mechanics.
Ah, so the notion was based on faulty ground in the first place.
It means, that single triangle cannot be a single Zerg, or a small bunch of them,

Since when have I debated that they would even represent single Zerg, especially when I mentioned that a single triangle has been known to represent hundreds of fliers?

because they march in swarms. No in single units, no in small squads.

of course they march in swarms. Last time I checked ALL those red triangles on the map were meant to represent the relevant swarm that was present. It does not establish that each triangle would be a swarm like what is being implied here.

If a shitload of them marches to one place at one time, then how wouldn't they blanket a planet?

Again you are making the baseless assumption that the entire Zerg swarm was literally marching shoulder to shoulder in order to blanket the planet when they very well and most likely was spaced much farther apart.

They can't compress themselves,

Then that means that the numbers that you are trying to establish that was on the planet certainly does not exist.

so all those millions of them might be able to gather around the emmiter on a small surface, so they cover more and more of the planet's surface. as they arrive.

Yeah, see above.

It is a norm for them as well to destroy not only things in their path, but in their sight. And they simply ignored everything, that was away, although they could destroy it easily.

Now you just established that they are capable of prioritizing. They may be summoned to it as if it were some Siren call but they damn well know well enough to actually approach that planet.

Besides, flooding the planet in few hours is definitely not a norm for them. They just infest it and consume local resources.

An argument in favor of calling the Zerg stupid in that instance.....
how?

doan_m Senior Member

It was mentioned, as well, that they were gathering around that emmiter. It means, that even if they created formations, they were eventually joining that huge swarm, focused in one place.

[QUOTE]A swarm, that was later described to cover almost whole planet.


Yeah i'm going to re-quote the relevant passage:
Originally posted by Liberty's Crusade
On the main screen, Antiga was nearly covered with red
triangles, and a perimeter of blue triangles was in orbit around it. There were no yellow triangles left.

Here's the difference. It was the red triangles that covered the whole planet. A representation of the Zerg presence being strong on the planet. It does not literally establish that the Zerg would literally cover the entire planet in a big giant swarm as much as you want to actually establish that. It only establishes that the presence is strong without saying much about the numbers beyond “alot” of Zerg.
But does not change at all the proportion between the armour and delivered firepower, which means, that even bloody expensive future battleships may be still sunk by future torpedoes, used by future aeroplanes.

And how would you know that battleships would be hellishly expensive in their future? How would you know that they layer their armor a lot more in contrast to the modern day equivalents of battleships? You see, not everything scales up identically in the future. Especially not in their future.

I'm talking about battleships' weaponry. And I see, that they have standard guns, that indeed have greater firepower, but aren't more accurate at all, that artillery from WWI.

Based on..... what? Game mechanics? Because while build times are certainly considered canon and the means of extracting resources, somewhat so, most others are not.

What's better, such battleship's guns, that rely on the gravity, but have also to be wary of the influence of such things, as wind, or long range missiles, like contemporary Tomahawk, that will hit the target precisely, and deliver great firepower as well?

shrug* So? For all I care those rounds could be accelerated at such absurd speeds that wind would also have little to no influence on the round in question.
Now what was it that I said the last time? Oh yes:
And a fault that ALL of science fiction possesses but you seem so horribly fixated on singling out TA for having some level of fault that's at best only slightly flawed despite the universes that we are arguing that are even worse with covnentional logic._

Development of logistics will never make wasting resources meaningless. Even if you state, that resources are limitless, then you are wasting precious time. And even if you state, that a new battleship can be made in few minutes, then each minute matters, because it may mean, that one army has already two times more ships, that enemy has.

So... how does this refute my point on Logistics meaning a shitload in war again? Because i'm not seeing it at all here. All I'm seeing is that time is also a very precious factor, an addition to the argument. Definitely not seeing the grounds of which you intend to dismiss my argument with “Logistics is but a single factor”. Especially when Logistics can also be defined as “The time-related positioning of resources ” (emphasis on time by the way)


If weapons of such firepower are common in TA universe, then I still don't see the problem.

It's not. The main problem here is that it appears that simply stating “oh lets just slap this weapon on this unit” does not take into account just what exactly it intends to fire back at, and what its capable of.

And why should be missiles used just as anti-air means in the first place? Why do they still have battleships with anachronic cannons, instead of missile weaponry?

And how would you know that said cannons were not really absurdly high velocity railguns? See, that's the problem with judging strictly on the aesthetic look of the unit(and perhaps the game mechanics).

It isn't. And if you think different, then try to compare, how many tons of metal do you need, to build a hull of a battleship, and how many tons of metal do you need to build a hull of air bomber (hint: size).
You do know that TA magically builds out of literally energy and mass right? Not by the tonnage of metals that are required to build the ship(think holodecks)

The question is, that I decided to point that flaw in the first place, just for fun.

Whilst also nitpicking the hell out of it and even going so far as calling them primitive(the original argument) despite them being able to stomp the ever living hell out of 40k, Starcraft and even Star Wars.

I remember, that someone laghed at it, when one of our computer magazines stated, that TA is "the most compact and the most logical view of the future warfare" (in a letter to that magazine, where he also compared TA and SC).
And thats there fault for such a silly blunder. Relevance to here is what?

Because it is the best situation to compare, which strategy is more efficient.
It's not. It really is not. Especially when efficiency is something that Total Annihilation laughs in the face of. What do you expect from a universe whose industry is capable of strip mining entire planets within a days time and has actually strip mined entire galaxies before?

See above. If someone won the war just because of the fact, that he has a lot more materials, while his strategy was a crap, why should we commend him for that strategy?
Except you made no arguments about strategy. The only arguments that you made were strictly within the context of “this technology is superior therefore TA should have been more efficient by using this”

It happened.

To one species. Out of frak knows how many others the IoM have actually successfully exterminated.
Thus you can't exclude, that IoM would cease a crusade because of similar threat.

And would you actually expect Crusades stopping in the face of a larger threat to be considered the norm? Because that's what would be required to even consider requiring a crusade stopping in its tracks to exterminate the Starcraft forces.

Ushgarak Paladin

Ok, this argument is getting far too tiresome, and I thnk it is time to remind about the vs. thread. Closed.