Starcraft vs, Warhammer 40,000

Originally posted by doan_m
Yeah. Because apparently a lack of evidence is sufficient to cast reasonable doubt that 40k would have superior firepower. Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

That's really great. But this works on the both sides, you know that?
I can't prove, that Siege Tanks indeed deliver greater firepower than Leman Russ, because I don't have a clear info.
But you can't prove as well, that Leman Russes are indestructible (or too powerful) for AAV-5 Arclite Siege Tanks, because you don't have clear info about those second ones. This means, that you too base all this argumentation only on an assumption, that it is, as you say.
This is by the way yet another reason why this whole comparision is nonesense.

Originally posted by doan_m
A silly thing to do no doubt, because of what the Kroot are. Which are mercenaries. You don't try to imagine what an Inquisitoral retinue(being the small band of 5 people+1 inquisitor) invasion of earth would look like because that wouldn't be there intent.

Christ.
I meant contemporary Earth, and our time, and how would Kroot fight our contemporary weaponry. Not the Earth of 40 000+.

Originally posted by doan_m
Again, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

See above.

Originally posted by doan_m
It was when you made the claim that using Infantry killing weapons would be used to destroy locked down armor.

Ghosts are not single units on the battlefield.

Originally posted by doan_m
And how does that make them capable of bringing down hive ships in the first place?

Tyranid bio-weaponry is making them capable of winning against technologically advanced forces such as Adeptus Astartes, isn't it?
So why shouldn't it enable the Zerg to destroy the hive ships, if they adapted it?

Originally posted by doan_m
So here is likely the relevant event of Antiga Prime in question with the red triangles representing the Zerg. It doesn't establish as to how many zerg represents a single triangle beyond someone mentioning that a single triangle in some cases represent hundreds of mutalisk flyers.

Even if each of those triangles is a single Zerg (or a small bunch of them), should they paint the screen to red almost completely, this means, that there are bloody dense down there.

Originally posted by doan_m
So Antiga was apparently nearly covered with red as opposed to outright blanketed.

Yes, my mistake, but is also surely doesn't mean, that only a parts of it were overrun.
I would run for book and check, how many of them were on Tarsonis, but I'm away from home, and I can't. Yet I remember Kerrigan saying, that when she listened to Mengsk, that screen was completely covered this time.

Originally posted by doan_m
This is of course making the presumption that there were indeed billions to even trillions of zerg on Antiga Prime in the first place.

And your opinion is of course based on assumption, that there were no billions of those Zerg.

Originally posted by doan_m
Remember what I said about the Tyranids screwing around with Warp Travel around the relevant area? Thats what the shadow of the warp does. It fraks around with the capacity for anyone to travel out or into the planet thereby cutting it off from reinforcements. Anyone who usually does try to get in usually find the warp that they travel in to be so violent that the travel time is signficantly delayed or outright halted in some instances.

Sounds great. Any ways to overcome it? Or guys from PDF and Imperial Guard just have to rely on themselves to survive?

Originally posted by doan_m
Yeah but did he tell you that the level of firepower was in the megaton range for the Trinity nuke?

Like I said, it was me who converted those numbers incorrectly. He didn't use X-ton units in that text at all. He just wrote about how many tons of trotile would it have to be, to match that a-bomb.
Wo³oszañski makes no mistakes 🙂 .

Originally posted by doan_m
Direct energy transfers don't work like that. If it did indeed turn the planet to dust, then the amount of energy required to be deposited into the planet would be magnitudes above teratons and would certainly be in the realm of at least yottatons.

It is only based on assumption. And you are probably still saying about destroying the planet with a single shot (like that instance with SW Death Star) - I mean, e.g. should those Yamato Cannons have enough firepower, they just fire one shot by one in the same place, until they "drill" to the core, and destroy the planet from inside.
Even in that ending movie from Fire Warrior, the Imperial ships were doing something like that. They fired constantly, until they broke to the core, and then planet exploded due to chain reaction (probably).

Originally posted by doan_m
When you have crap like mountain sized trees in fanfic, and it being burned off by peewee firepower then it gets really interesting.

I would expect more of a weapon, that has so great firepower, that only 20 projectiles (only, because those projectiles are fired like from machine gun) of it would be enough to destroy whole Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Originally posted by doan_m
This would be making the presumption that they would not replenish there numbers quickly enough and that the battleships in question would come unsupported with other assets to back it up.

And those old battleships, didn't they have other naval assets to back them up? They did. And that didn't save them from extinction.
And there is no such speed of replenishing them in situation, when enemy has 1000 ships and keeps building them at the same rate, as you (because he uses the same technology), while you have none (they are sunk), and you try to start from zero.

Originally posted by Der_SpeeDer
That's really great. But this works on the both sides, you know that?

But you can't prove as well, that Leman Russes are indestructible (or too powerful) for AAV-5 Arclite Siege Tanks, because you don't have clear info about those second ones.

I can however provide a useful means of giving some limit as to what exactly it is capable of withstanding:

Originally posted by Gaunts Ghost: Honor Guard

"Re-laying the gun took a vital second. In that time, the second tank fired again and hit the Wrath squarely. The impact was enough to lurch all sixty-two tonnes of armoured machine several metres sideways. But it didn't penetrate the twenty centimetre-thick armour skin. Inside, the crew were dazed and they'd lost most of the forward scopes."

So they got armor capable of withstanding something that can lurch a 62 ton tank several meters to the side without penetrating the armor and dazing the crew.

This means, that you too base all this argumentation only on an assumption, that it is, as you say.

All this argumentation? Really? I did cite novels that demonstrates 40k's firepower that would allow the fight to be highly in 40ks favor. Now if this is in reference to the siege tank arguments then i'll just point to the star destroyer argument again.

This is by the way yet another reason why this whole comparision is nonesense.

Christ.
I meant contemporary Earth, and our time, and how would Kroot fight our contemporary weaponry. Not the Earth of 40 000+.

Ghosts are not single units on the battlefield.

Tyranid bio-weaponry is making them capable of winning against technologically advanced forces such as Adeptus Astartes, isn't it?
So why shouldn't it enable the Zerg to destroy the hive ships, if they adapted it?

Even if each of those triangles is a single Zerg (or a small bunch of them), should they paint the screen to red almost completely, this means, that there are bloody dense down there.

Yes, my mistake, but is also surely doesn't mean, that only a parts of it were overrun.

And your opinion is of course based on assumption, that there were no billions of those Zerg.

Sounds great. Any ways to overcome it? Or guys from PDF and Imperial Guard just have to rely on themselves to survive?

It is only based on assumption. And you are probably still saying about destroying the planet with a single shot (like that instance with SW Death Star) -

I mean, e.g. should those Yamato Cannons have enough firepower, they just fire one shot by one in the same place, until they "drill" to the core, and destroy the planet from inside.

Even in that ending movie from Fire Warrior, the Imperial ships were doing something like that. They fired constantly, until they broke to the core, and then planet exploded due to chain reaction (probably).

I would expect more of a weapon, that has so great firepower, that only 20 projectiles (only, because those projectiles are fired like from machine gun) of it would be enough to destroy whole Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

And those old battleships, didn't they have other naval assets to back them up? They did. And that didn't save them from extinction.

And there is no such speed of replenishing them in situation, when enemy has 1000 ships and keeps building them at the same rate, as you (because he uses the same technology), while you have none (they are sunk), and you try to start from zero. [/B]

In game build times are considered canon. And the same rate is not entirely uniform as there is the asymmetrical considerations that the enemy has more naval yards than you to actually replenish said numbers fast enough.

I've been reading these really long posts for awhile now and just wanted to point something out.

I am a huge fan of BOTH Starcraft and Warhammer 40K. I have read a lot of the books and fluff from both universes. I am not biased to liking one or the other more. With this knowledge I can tell you that Starcraft simply does not have the technological advancement that the Warhammer 40K universe has. However, We could argue technological prowess all damn day.
So, to appease both sides of the argument, lets say their TECHNOLOGICAL abilities are completely equal. That or they are balanced to the point where technological advantage does not matter in their war. If we agree to this hypothetical statement, then it comes down to one thing. Their respective universes' ability to wage war.

The Imperium contains (when compared to the starcraft universe) essentially unlimited resources. The Imperium of Man is so large that I would argue that its birthrate is larger per day than the population of the Koprulu sector. Now, simple manpower and attrition can be won easily by the IOM (Imperium of Man). The simple fact that the IOM is TOO LARGE for the Terrans zerg and protoss to handle.

And another thing; this topic seems to have taken a turn to just the Imperium vs all the races of Starcraft. This is not the case. We have been taking into account the Terran, Protoss, and Zerg in this argument, but not the other races of Warhammer 40K. Now throw the insane military might of Chaos Marines and its Daemons, The limitless Tyranids, the survivor warrior race (Orks), the Omnicidal Necrons, the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, and the Tau. This is a lost cause for the 200 or so worlds of Starcraft.

In short: Say hypothetically that the United States of America (or Russia or any other high-population country) and The tiny Country of Palau are technological equals. Palau cannot win because its population is way too small. Even if they had a "slight" tech advantage, they COULD NOT win.

Last, you leave out the fact that in Warhammer 40K, Humanity has already reached the pinnacle of Technology in the past. Because of the fact that this technological marvel turned on them (they were near unstoppable Battle droids called "Iron Men"😉 It ended up setting back the technology of the IOM back a couple thousand years. And the Imperium is STILL dangerous and powerful as ****.

TL; DR - If all the races of the Warhammer 40K universe were united in the goal to destroy the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran; Tech advantage would not ****ing matter. Their is simply too much to fight. 40K wins.

And if I was to guess as to what other fictional universes could stack up to Warhammer, I would say there are two (that I can think of right now).

The Empire from the "Foundation" novels by Isaac Asimov

The Precursors from Halo. (NOTE: NOT Forerunners, I mean the races that came before them.) The precursors were supposed to be so advanced that they are believed to have ascended to Godhood through technology.

Tier 0: Transsentient As the [Forerunners] had no examples of civilizations with technological accomplishment greater than themselves - with the exception of the Precursors - this is a theoretical ceiling. They can travel intergalactic and accelerate evolution of intelligent life. These may be creatures of legend. (Source: Halopedia)

I didn't read through all this, however one thing I believe would happen after a few years is:

Tyranerds (Tyranids and Zergs).

That's right, seeing as Tyranids would get some DNA from Zerg and Zerg would resurrect Tyranids it would all just skew until they were one and the same and thier combined force would wipe out everyone!

Originally posted by doan_m
The difference being of course that I've brought up evidence that demonstrates superior firepower in 40k's favor.

What evidence? You've told me about an immense firepower of Imperial Navy ships, that gives them ability to sterilize the whole planet easily even when they have only one vessel. I didn't hear anything similar about Leman Russes. Well, besides of those "gigajoules of firepower they can take" - and I already told you, that you have no single info, that Siege Tanks do not deliver that level of firepower.

Originally posted by doan_m
With that kind of logic I shouldn't be able to prove that a Star Destroyer cannot withstand the blast of the siege tank simply because a lack of evidence is there.

OOOOKKK...

Originally posted by doan_m
So they got armor capable of withstanding something that can lurch a 62 ton tank several meters to the side without penetrating the armor and dazing the crew.

Nice.
But what's should fully convince me in this instance? That weight of 62 tons? If contemporary tanks weight around 30, that number, if we remember, that it is year 40 000+, is not really shocking.

Originally posted by doan_m
All this argumentation? Really? I did cite novels that demonstrates 40k's firepower that would allow the fight to be highly in 40ks favor.

Yes, and I partially agree with you (especially in case of Imperial Navy), but there is still too much relativeness in certain instances. Like that one with lurching a 62-tons tank.
And Siege Tanks? I don't know about their weight (but its a few tens of tons for sure), but when they fire from shock cannon, they need those metal "legs" for stability - because, obviously, they wouldn't just be lurched. They would risk falling to the side.

Originally posted by doan_m
Now if this is in reference to the siege tank arguments then i'll just point to the star destroyer argument again.

That's too obvious.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why? Comparison is exactly what is being done for the last 4 pages with some actual finite results as to who is capable of what and what it means when going up against another sci-fi universe. A single unit for which there is some lack of evidence is not sufficient basis for a dismissal of comparison.

I'm not talking about this single lack of info only. Those two Sci-verses were made for completely different purposes, by different people, under the influence of completely different style and directives. So what's the point of making such comparision from the start?
I can compare WH40k universe to the Dragonball Z universe, too. And even say, that guys from WH40k would be in big trouble in such conflict, as each DBZ character's average ability is launching a fireball, that can destroy entire planet bloody easily, with a minimum energy loss to the shooter. But this comparision is absurd, because those are completely two different fictional realities. Maybe comparing WH40k to StarCraft is lesser absurd, but still absurd.
It wasn't Blizzard's goal during creation of SC, to make up an incredibly powerful technology for all races. When guys from GW created WH40k universe, they had such goal.

Originally posted by doan_m
And this bears relevance to my asking just how exactly would infantry killing weapons be penetrating 40k armor?

What are you talking about right now?
I told about that instance just in order to show, how long is Lockdown's duration. Destroying a tank with a weapon, that is designed for killing infantry, is definitely time-consuming, if even possible.

Originally posted by doan_m
You are missing the point. How exactly do the Zerg intend to take samples of Hive ships when the Hive ship fleets themselves are magnitudes more powerful and highly extremely numerical to the point that any such attempt to actually assimilate them would in extreme liklihood, end in failure?

So don't these guys have heavier ground weaponry, in order to destroy the ships in the orbit from planet's surface?

Originally posted by doan_m
And what reasonable evidence is there to provide that the number of triangles on that map were actually that dense in the first place?

That the planet was still "almost completely overrun"?
If we made such screen, showing the Earth, with such triangles showing human beings, they wouldn't cover even 30% of the planet's surface. And there is well over 6 billion people in the world.
So what is it exactly, that should make me NOT assume, that there is so many Zerg, that they've overrun almost entire planet, so they can also be counted in billions?

Originally posted by doan_m
It doesn't. But it handily disproves that the planet was not blanketed in a massive wave of Zerg.

Even if it was not blanketed, it was mostly covered. "Almost" - so let's say, that 90% of the surface. Now compare it to those 'human' triangles, covering not even 30% of similar planet's surface, and yet counting over 6 billions in numbers.
And the Tarsonis was blanketed, so there were billions of those Zerg for sure.

Originally posted by doan_m
I'm pointing out that its not reasonable to make that assumption based on those red triangles on Antiga Prime.

So on what should I base my assumption? On those 6,5 millions in Tiamat Brood, that you seem to have made up?

Originally posted by doan_m
You see, when I apply the term destroy the planet, i'm thinking of shattering the planet to the point that the debris flies away from each other at absurd velocities. "Drilling" down to the core (as freakishly long as it would take even with Teraton firepower, assuming of course it actually goes through) is not something that I would quantify as "destroying the planet"

So can those guys from Imperial Navy "destroy the planet" or not? Or you just meant turning planet into lifeless rock earlier?

Originally posted by doan_m
Except that all visual evidence is really to the contrary. Why exactly would a planets core even explode like that in the first place?

Hold on, first you use that vid as an argument, now you write such things?

Originally posted by doan_m
When mountain sized trees hold up, of course it would.

To destroy such a tree, you would only need a crude torch, light it up, and wait until it burns. Trees aren't armoured targets, that can't be destroyed with standard weaponry. Even if they are huge.

Originally posted by doan_m
Did they even have any sufficiently decent means of support that would actually effectively counter air assets to begin with? Or at least something on the same level as TA?

They had an assistance of carriers, with squadrons of fighters.
Besides, what's that argument? Contemporary ships have weaponry capable of shooting down enemy aircraft effectively. And yet battleships were never reintroduced. Why? Try to anwer that question yourself.

Originally posted by doan_m
In game build times are considered canon. And the same rate is not entirely uniform as there is the asymmetrical considerations that the enemy has more naval yards than you to actually replenish said numbers fast enough.

I'm fully aware of that. It hardly changes my point.

Now, simple manpower and attrition can be won easily by the IOM (Imperium of Man). The simple fact that the IOM is TOO LARGE for the Terrans zerg and protoss to handle

Imperium has too many problems to handle at one time, so we shouldn't assume that it would be able to direct that whole manpower against Terrans, Zerg or Protoss. In WH40k universe there are races, that are relatively small in numbers, too (Tau, for example - their empire is tiny, compared to the WH40k universe's vastness). If Imperium can win everything just by sheer numbers, why didn't they slaughter anybody long time ago?

Now throw the insane military might of Chaos Marines and its Daemons, The limitless Tyranids, the survivor warrior race (Orks), the Omnicidal Necrons, the Eldar, the Dark Eldar, and the Tau. This is a lost cause for the 200 or so worlds of Starcraft

Yes.
Assuming, that all these guys would act as one.
But that is impossible in WH40k. They're killing each other every day. They don't ally. It is more possible for the races of SC to ally.

Skaven in 'old' Warhammer would also easily conquer the whole world just by their sheer numbers, if they united. But they won't unite - that's impossible. I've read the novel about Gotrek's ecounter with Skaven, so I know, how all their plans of conquest end.

Last, you leave out the fact that in Warhammer 40K, Humanity has already reached the pinnacle of Technology in the past. Because of the fact that this technological marvel turned on them (they were near unstoppable Battle droids called "Iron Men"😉 It ended up setting back the technology of the IOM back a couple thousand years. And the Imperium is STILL dangerous and powerful as ****

If we involve a timeline in this, so then let's imagine, how would races of SC look like in that year 40 000+, if they are already considerably powerful in 2499.

In case of universes being capable of fighting that of WH40k, maybe I would add that "computer" from Lem's novel "Invincible". It would cause much trouble to the Imperium.

Originally posted by Der_SpeeDer
[ I didn't hear anything similar about Leman Russes. Well, besides of those "gigajoules of firepower they can take" -

Did I not bring up those absurd Lasgun capabilites that showed it capable of instantly turning a large fish into nothing but a puddle of guts? Did I not also showed the explosive potential of promethium? 125 km ranges for Basilisk Artillery cannon? Genestealers and Carnifexes capable of ripping adamantium?(First ever post for reference sake)

No? Not enough? Need to take it up higher? Ok, how about Battle titans with 7 layers of Void shields? The same Titans that will possess lower denominators of starship weaponry? How about the hand-held Meltagun capable of instantly vaporizing a few dozen cubic meters of ice in an instant(Caves of Ice)? Autocannons capable of outputting a thousand bolter rounds per second(Gaunts Ghost:First and Only).

and I already told you, that you have no single info, that Siege Tanks do not deliver that level of firepower.

OOOOKKK...

Nice.
But what's should fully convince me in this instance? That weight of 62 tons? If contemporary tanks weight around 30, that number, if we remember, that it is year 40 000+, is not really shocking.[/QUOTE]
The only reason to indicate the weight is to show what kind of object was being thrown around and under what kind of duress of firepower. In fact, a tank thats heavier in the far future, means absolutely nothing. For all I care tanks in OUR far future could be significantly lighter then normal but would possess 10 times the durability for all i care.

Yes, and I partially agree with you (especially in case of Imperial Navy), but there is still too much relativeness in certain instances.
Like that one with lurching a 62-tons tank.

And Siege Tanks? I don't know about their weight (but its a few tens of tons for sure), but when they fire from shock cannon, they need those metal "legs" for stability - because, obviously, they wouldn't just be lurched. They would risk falling to the side.

Leman Russ Tanks have inertial dampeners to compensate for recoil.

I'm not talking about this single lack of info only. Those two Sci-verses were made for completely different purposes, by different people, under the influence of completely different style and directives.

The exact same thing can be said about Star Wars vs. Star Trek, but guess what? That classic comparison is made pretty much made practically all the freaking time even now as we speak in all likelihood.

So what's the point of making such comparision from the start?

I can compare WH40k universe to the Dragonball Z universe, too. And even say, that guys from WH40k would be in big trouble in such conflict, as each DBZ character's average ability is launching a fireball, that can destroy entire planet bloody easily, with a minimum energy loss to the shooter. But this comparision is absurd, because those are completely two different fictional realities. Maybe comparing WH40k to StarCraft is lesser absurd, but still absurd.

It wasn't Blizzard's goal during creation of SC, to make up an incredibly powerful technology for all races.

When guys from GW created WH40k universe, they had such goal.

What are you talking about right now?
I told about that instance just in order to show, how long is Lockdown's duration.
Destroying a tank with a weapon, that is designed for killing infantry, is definitely time-consuming, if even possible.

Originally posted by You

In that you can use lockdown on an armoured vehicle, and destroy it with a weapon designed for killing infantry, before it regains ability to move.

Originally posted by me

And how can you be sure that it would penetrate the armor in the first place?

Originally posted by You
It's not the question of armour.

All right lets backtrack a bit and get some perspective:

Originally posted by Me

It was when you made the claim that using Infantry killing weapons would be used to destroy locked down armor.

Originally posted by You
Ghosts are not single units on the battlefield.

Originally posted by Me

And this bears relevance to my asking just how exactly would infantry killing weapons be penetrating 40k armor?

That bolded part in that argument is what i'm talking about. What exactly makes you so sure that anti-infantry weapons from SC, of all weapons could be able to penetrate 40k armor?

So don't these guys have heavier ground weaponry, in order to destroy the ships in the orbit from planet's surface?

That the planet was still "almost completely overrun"?
If we made such screen, showing the Earth, with such triangles showing human beings, they wouldn't cover even 30% of the planet's surface. And there is well over 6 billion people in the world.

So what is it exactly, that should make me NOT assume, that there is so many Zerg, that they've overrun almost entire planet, so they can also be counted in billions?

Even if it was not blanketed, it was mostly covered. "Almost" - so let's say, that 90% of the surface.

Now compare it to those 'human' triangles, covering not even 30% of similar planet's surface, and yet counting over 6 billions in numbers.

And the Tarsonis was blanketed, so there were billions of those Zerg for sure.

So on what should I base my assumption? On those 6,5 millions in Tiamat Brood, that you seem to have made up?

I pulled them from the Starcraft Wiki.
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Tiamat

So can those guys from Imperial Navy "destroy the planet" or not? Or you just meant turning planet into lifeless rock earlier?

Hold on, first you use that vid as an argument, now you write such things?

To destroy such a tree, you would only need a crude torch, light it up, and wait until it burns. Trees aren't armoured targets, that can't be destroyed with standard weaponry. Even if they are huge.

They had an assistance of carriers, with squadrons of fighters.
Besides, what's that argument? Contemporary ships have weaponry capable of shooting down enemy aircraft effectively. And yet battleships were never reintroduced.

I'm sure mirroring the real world where the World Stage is completely different is a very good means of questioning why TA has those assets >_>

Why? Try to anwer that question yourself.

Because hardly anyone fights a war where the enemy is on a similar technological level as you do? Or for that matter, because Naval engagements hardly take place in this world anymore. Unlike TA, where they deem naval control to be relevant and where your enemy actually DOES have a level of technological equivalence as you do.

I'm fully aware of that. It hardly changes my point.

Imperium has too many problems to handle at one time, so we shouldn't assume that it would be able to direct that whole manpower against Terrans, Zerg or Protoss.

(Tau, for example - their empire is tiny, compared to the WH40k universe's vastness). If Imperium can win everything just by sheer numbers, why didn't they slaughter anybody long time ago?

Ever heard of the Damocles Crusade? They essentially almost did. They took a very small fraction of 40k Naval assets and dedicated it to wiping out the Tau. They would very well have succeeded as well had it not been for the nearest Tyranid Hive Fleet. Something that is deemed a much larger threat.

Yes.
Assuming, that all these guys would act as one.

But that is impossible in WH40k. They're killing each other every day. They don't ally. It is more possible for the races of SC to ally.

Skaven in 'old' Warhammer would also easily conquer the whole world just by their sheer numbers, if they united. But they won't unite - that's impossible. I've read the novel about Gotrek's ecounter with Skaven, so I know, how all their plans of conquest end.

If we involve a timeline in this, so then let's imagine, how would races of SC look like in that year 40 000+, if they are already considerably powerful in 2499.

Any such speculation would be absolutely baseless. If you want to speculate and create anything beyond that, you might as well be writing your own fanfic. Besides if you want to scale through time, then I'll just bring up Dark Age of Technology Humanity.
An extremely advanced form of Humanity in the past that was able to do the following: capable of moving entire solar systems to other parts of the galaxy(Hence why Earth is in a different part of milky way)

-Have enough Baneblades to make them a simple common denominator battle tank.
-Mass produce War Titans
-Blow up suns.
-considered Terminator Armor to just be something like a hazmat suit designed to do work in plasma reactors
-possess weather control technology.
-laser rifles capable of making 40k level firepower a mockery

It seems like you missed something. The topic is Warhammer 40,000 Versus Starcraft. Not Imperium of Man versus Starcfraft. This means the whole shebang. You are trying to say that the 200 Worlds and manpower of Starcraft (Not Terrans only, or Zerg only, or Protoss only; but all of them) vs Warhammer 40K. (NOT just the IOM, or Chaos or etc...)

If you wanted to make this JUST the IOM versus Starcraft then, you are correct when you say the Imperium has a lot on their plate. But they are still so large that the force they can send will be more massive.

FACT: There are OVER 1 million worlds in the IOM vs starcraft. The ratio? They have more than 5000 worlds at their disposal to your every 1. 5000:1. The resource advantage is massive. Have you ever tried to play a game of starcraft against someone who starts out with 1000000 crystal and vespene? Its kind of ridiculous to say you could even put up a fight.

As I said before, it is simply too large. Doan, your analysis of the Dark Age of Technology was spot on. The Dark Age of Technology is not something Starcraft wants to mess with. The only reason any of the other races (Orks, Eldar, Tau...etc) still exist are because the Iron Men rebelled and fought a titanic battle with Humanity across the galaxy. oh and humanity won (obviously). They prevailed against nigh unstoppable machines so what makes you think that starcraft can beat Warhammer 40K?

You also mentioned earlier that ghosts and science vessels could lock our shit down, well fine. Assuming we are not arguing technological advantage (which I could make a case for lockdown not doing shit against a battlebarge), then look at it this way. There are not enough Ghosts or Science vessels in Starcraft to make a dent in the Imperium.

Last; Didn't the Zerg trounce everyone except for being wiped off of Shakuras? So doesn't that mean that the Starcraft war machine is weak as hell right now?

2 other things:

When I was referring to the pinnacle of technological achievement (aka Iron men) I was moving into the PAST not the future. You saying to imagine what SC would be like in 40,000 years is taking a step forward so that is a moot point. You can't argue hypothetical technological achievement against the technology that the IOM already achieved.

Two: If you were to plan the invasion of the IOM by the races of Starcraft (the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran are not allied according to your rules, so they are still fighting each other) how exactly would you try to do that? Its not like the races of starcraft have mapped the IOM's galaxy. They wouldn't even know where to begin. Also, if they were working together and the warhammer races were not; do you honestly think that the only race your invasion fleet would run into would be IOM? Your Psykers (Protoss and Ghosts) would get mutated and possessed by Chaos just for being there and God help you if you run into a tomb world or a hive fleet. Maybe they would get sucked into the eye of terror. That could be funny.

Originally posted by doan_m
Bringing up the firepower for Naval based assets is quite sufficient enough to bring up considering that, that will certainly be where a fair number of engagements will happen. That is, 40k will likely be able to stop the majority of any Starcrafts orbital invasions of 40k planets before they even happen.

Agreed.

Originally posted by doan_m
Did I not bring up those absurd Lasgun capabilites that showed it capable of instantly turning a large fish into nothing but a puddle of guts?

How large was that fish? Because contemporary shotgun, if fired from short distance, also can reap fish into pieces.

Originally posted by doan_m
Did I not also showed the explosive potential of promethium?

You did. I even had to remind you, that burning underwater is not the question of destructive power of the bomb, but of the oxidizer (example with M76 bomb produced during WWII).

Originally posted by doan_m
Genestealers and Carnifexes capable of ripping adamantium?(First ever post for reference sake)

Thought Marines' and Terminators' armours are made of plasteel.

Originally posted by doan_m
Ok, how about Battle titans with 7 layers of Void shields? The same Titans that will possess lower denominators of starship weaponry?

How many Titans are there in Imperium? How often are they used?

Originally posted by doan_m
How about the hand-held Meltagun capable of instantly vaporizing a few dozen cubic meters of ice in an instant(Caves of Ice)?

You see, there is another problem - guys from Blizzard, and the authors of the books based on SC, simply do not make up instances like this. Because what about it - we're discussing the firepower of Meltaguns basing on the ice melting speed rate? That sounds ridiculous.
Ability to destroy (pardon, evaporize) a planet with single vessel convinces me, that it has huge firepower. Such cases do not.

Originally posted by doan_m
Autocannons capable of outputting a thousand bolter rounds per second(Gaunts Ghost:First and Only).

Well, rain of RPGs - that is devastating.

Originally posted by doan_m
And there is absolutely zero evidence that they do.

They are armed with plasma cannons, that are usually portrayed as one of the most potent weapons in Sci-Fi. They had to be equipped with those legs during firing, or they would fall. Explosions of their projectiles cause quakes.
That's "absolutely zero evidence"?

Originally posted by doan_m
Now do you see why hiding behind a lack of evidence is a fallacy?

And using instances, that are cool because of their impossibility to compare, as arguments in discussion, is a great thing?

Originally posted by doan_m
Relative to what?

E.g. the same fact of lurching the tank - does that really show the penetrating power of the cannon? Or just velocity of the projectile of the force it was used to "throw" it away from the barrel (which is based on its weight)? Should we base on recoil, then Long Maxes (German Cannons from WWI) were more powerful than both Leman Russ and AAV-5 Arclite.

Originally posted by doan_m
And why complain about it now, when you're in this deep in arguing about this topic?

Hard to tell. I probably simply enjoy entering senseless discussions. As well as arguing with stupid people (no, I don't say, that you are stupid - I just argued many times in the Internet with people, that were obviously idiots, who I shouldn't care about - but I argued with them).

Originally posted by doan_m
Except thats EXACTLY what you did just right there. You just made the comparison between DBZ and 40k despite the fact that you label it as absurd to do so.

I just made a small example. Those two fictional universes are so different, that it's nonesense to compare them.

Originally posted by doan_m
Your proof of this?

Level of firepower each race delivers?

Originally posted by doan_m
That bolded part in that argument is what i'm talking about. What exactly makes you so sure that anti-infantry weapons from SC, of all weapons could be able to penetrate 40k armor?

I didn't say that. I told you about penetrating an armour of SC units. Because it is penetrated. But when you try to destroy Siege Tank with a single Ghost, it's time-consuming.

Originally posted by doan_m
Well duh. We populate this Earth based on regions that we deem favourable and group together in extremely dense cities or towns.

And how do the Zerg move, in tiraliers? Or in dense swarms?

Originally posted by doan_m
Can you reasonably establish that each triangle would represent millions of zergs based on a bunch of triangles on a display screen? Because that very novel even establishes that a single triangle would represent something close to hundreds of Mutalisk.

I never told about how many Zerg does single triangle represent. I simply said about the size of the surface those triangles covered.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why 90%? Why not 60% or 70%? Any of those percentiles would do well enough to establish a mostly covered figure as well.

Even 60% or 70% is well above the percentage of the Earth's surface we cover.

Originally posted by doan_m
Those "human triangles" would have an established density of millions, if not hundreds of thousands of people. Something that is NOT established in Liberty's Crusade.

So how do you imagine this? Single Zergs, or small bunches of them, in distance of few kilometers from each other? Zerg do not move like that, they march in huge swarms. And when all of them are invading one planet at one time, why would they separate into smaller groups, rather than forming a bloody dense swarm, growing as more and more Zerg arrive?

Originally posted by doan_m
Well guess what? There were also other triangles as well on that map, which also indicated civilians trying to escape and planetary defense forces trying to hold them off. Is there any reason why any of those triangles should also be established as millions of people?

Like I said, I'm basing mainly on the size of the surface, not trying to answer, how many people are represented by single triangle.

Originally posted by doan_m
I pulled them from the Starcraft Wiki.

Why didn't you tell me this earlier? This changes things.
Although I still hardly believe it. Only 6,5 millions?

Originally posted by doan_m
When I say that all visual evidence is to the contary, i'm referring to your argument that it seems to be based on a chain reaction.

For first, I simply believed, that through "destroying the planet" you meant blowing it up wholly, changing into a bunch of asteroids flying off into space everywhere. And when you've shown me that pic, I thought, that breaking through the planet into its core caused such destruction later.

Originally posted by doan_m
Of course you can. But when you have them destroyed almost instantly, or can transfer enough firepower that a tree of that size would be almost immediately consumed by flame, then there is a massive disparity of firepower that is established.

Well, OK, but I would really like to see this ingame. Because when lore from the game does not accord to the fanfic, there's something not quite right about it.

Originally posted by doan_m
I'm sure mirroring the real world where the World Stage is completely different is a very good means of questioning why TA has those assets >_>

They are still basing on real world nevertheless. They have tanks and armoured vehicles, just like us. They have KBots as equivalent of infantry. They have aeroplanes and naval ships that are almost exactly like those of contemporary warfare. The only differences are firepower and that technological miracle with units and structures being built instantly. This still doesn't change situation much. Because if you can build next battleship instantly, your enemy can build ships instantly too, and sank all your battleships with air assets, at a minimum losses, leaving you with nothing. Well, maybe with those ships you managed to build meanwhile, but your enemy already has entire fleet of them, and builds new ships instantly, just like you.

Originally posted by doan_m
Because hardly anyone fights a war where the enemy is on a similar technological level as you do?

Errr... World War II? World War I?

Originally posted by doan_m
Or for that matter, because Naval engagements hardly take place in this world anymore.

Which brings up again a question, why such archaic weaponry should be reintroduced in distant future, although it is considered arachronic even today.

Originally posted by doan_m
Unlike TA, where they deem naval control to be relevant and where your enemy actually DOES have a level of technological equivalence as you do.

So what? If you have 50% of your fleet (because those useless battleships were already sunk by air strikes), and enemy has 100% of it, you're finished. Building new ships in seconds won't save you, because - as you said - your enemy is on equivalent tech level, and build new ships in matter of seconds too, keeping advantage.

Originally posted by doan_m
I establish that unlike real time naval ships, they can at the very least, be able to rebuild their numbers in a very quick amount of time, and unlike our real world. For extremely cheap in comparision.

If your enemy build new ships at the same speed rate, increasing the power of his fleet already, while you are trying to REBUILD it, it won't save you.

Originally posted by doan_m
Ever heard of the Damocles Crusade?

I did. It took place at the borders of Tau space, didn't it?

Originally posted by doan_m
They essentially almost did. They took a very small fraction of 40k Naval assets and dedicated it to wiping out the Tau. They would very well have succeeded as well had it not been for the nearest Tyranid Hive Fleet. Something that is deemed a much larger threat.

Well, this shows, that Imperium probably would not destroy Terran Dominion, because it would have to give up the conquest in face of greater threat.

Originally posted by doan_m
Which for the record Jack Bleak, is exactly why i'm arguing mainly on the side of the Imperium.

Hell yeah. If Imperium is considered to be the most powerful faction in WH40k universe, then why not compare SC races to it? Especially that comparing them to all races of WH40k would make our post much, much longer.

Originally posted by doan_m
Any such speculation would be absolutely baseless.[/quote

It doesn't change the fact, that SC races are not on peak of their technological advancement.

[QUOTE=12380674]Originally posted by doan_m
Besides if you want to scale through time, then I'll just bring up Dark Age of Technology Humanity.
An extremely advanced form of Humanity in the past that was able to do the following:

OK, I don't have anything more to say in this matter.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
It seems like you missed something. The topic is Warhammer 40,000 Versus Starcraft. Not Imperium of Man versus Starcfraft.

See above, that reply to doan_m's post starting with "hell yeah".

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
FACT: There are OVER 1 million worlds in the IOM vs starcraft. The ratio? They have more than 5000 worlds at their disposal to your every 1. 5000:1. The resource advantage is massive. Have you ever tried to play a game of starcraft against someone who starts out with 1000000 crystal and vespene? Its kind of ridiculous to say you could even put up a fight.

Correctly, but it's not so simple, when you reming Damocles Crusade. If Imperium would simply devastate SC races due to it's sheer size, manpower and industrial power, they why weren't they able to destroy Tau, that also have tiny empire, and had to give up fighting them in order to deal with the Tyranid threat?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
As I said before, it is simply too large. Doan, your analysis of the Dark Age of Technology was spot on. The Dark Age of Technology is not something Starcraft wants to mess with.

It is not something that ANYTHING wants to mess with 🙂 .

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
They prevailed against nigh unstoppable machines so what makes you think that starcraft can beat Warhammer 40K?

If they were stopped, and Imperium is still huge and powerful, then they were surely not unstoppable.
The Zerg were able to devastate the most powerful race in SC universe, possessing immense knowledge and powers.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
(which I could make a case for lockdown not doing shit against a battlebarge)

But against Baneblade or Basilisk - for sure.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
There are not enough Ghosts or Science vessels in Starcraft to make a dent in the Imperium.

But to cause trouble to potential single strike force - perhaps.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Didn't the Zerg trounce everyone except for being wiped off of Shakuras? So doesn't that mean that the Starcraft war machine is weak as hell right now?

Sorry, I don't get this logic.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Two: If you were to plan the invasion of the IOM by the races of Starcraft (the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran are not allied according to your rules, so they are still fighting each other) how exactly would you try to do that?

I would never move that far to imagine an invasion on IOM world (except for situation, when a fleet of Behemoths arrives on border colony, turns it into black orb with nuclear barrage instantly, and leaves as soon as it appeared).

I just try to point out, that they would have considerable chances in potential fight, e.g. invasion on one of their planets.

Sorry, but I found this randomly one day and need to set facts straight.

First, as doan stated early on, a Lasgun can go through 3 meters of concrete, and the cell's can be set to explode or release all energy in a single shot. Doing such pretty much ruins the barrel, but increases the power of the shot more than two fold. Infact, the rapid heat generated from the Lasgun on it's target cause an explosion of moister (which is why Lasguns are good vs. unarmored targets.)

Seond, promethium is a term for any fuel used in the Imperium, and is strong enough to reduce Orkz to molten slag in mere seconds ("Let the Galaxy Burn; Ork Hunter"😉

I don't know what Marine armor is made of, but it's tough stuff. More so than neosteel used by the Terrans. If zerglings can shred Terran Marines, then what does that say about their armor? Zerglings=Rippers, and rippers cant penetrate Space Marine armor.

There are about 100 Titans in the Imperium. They are comon during Crusades or WAAAGH's! like Armagedon.

A Meltagun is a gun that can melt Bulkheads, Armor and vehicles. Considering the stuff the Vehicles and Bulkheads are made of, that's really power full.

Instances for comparisons are the only conductive way to go about this debate. Unless you know all the stats of both sides weapons and capabilities, then it's the only way to go. Opinons dont mean much when not backed by evidence. Canon is canon, no matter what you think. It's called Sci-fi because it's Science fiction, so calling something a "lie" in fiction is a moot point.

Tyranids balnket planets. Never heard of Rippers?

Games are not lore, fluff or canon. Not solid at least because said games have to have some semblance to balance. Codex's are the most reliable, second is Black Library books.

The IoM is not the most powerful. Tyranids and Necrons are the most powerful. Nothing Starcraft has can stop those threats short of destroying worlds. And I mean completly destroy. A tomb comlex underground aint gonna feel the surface burning.

The Tau only exist because of plot armor. And the fact that the Tyranids barged in.

We can't say anything about Lockdown untill we know how it works. I think it's fair to say if it can't penetrate the armor, than it doesent work. So Baneblades and Lemans are safe, unless the lockdown missle is some super powerful armor piercing dril that we don't know about.

keep in mind that if Starcraft had to invade, they would also end up runing into Orkz and the other enemies. More than enough to mess their sh@t up good.

Starcraft wins hands down if they are played by Koreans if not then it's anyone's game.

You didn't answer some of my questions. But I'll answer some of yours.

No, the Imperium is not technically the most powerful faction in the universe... but they are like tied for first because they are assaulted on all sides all the time and still beat ass.

"If Imperium is considered to be the most powerful faction in WH40k universe, then why not compare SC races to it? Especially that comparing them to all races of WH40k would make our post much, much longer."

So you want to compare 3 races to the power of one? Hence; the name of the topic. I'll reiterate once more, STARCRAFT VS WARHAMMER 40K. As in their whole respective universes. It is not just IOM vs Protoss or any combination you want to make. So yes, you have to take into account all of the other threats in the Warhammer 40K universe, not just pick and choose when it is convenient for your argument.

Now, just for clarification; what is it you are trying to prove? I'm serious, I'm not trying to sound condescending. I just mean like; you want to prove that starcraft is more powerful and would whip WH40K's ass? or that they could take a certain amount of worlds or just be a general thorn in the ass to the IOM? Because if that's the case, the IOM has been dealing with plenty of more dangerous thorns for far longer than any of the Starcraft races. The IOM would probably not really notice such a tiny place like the koprulu sector until they encroached on their worlds. Which brings me to:

Correctly, but it's not so simple, when you reming Damocles Crusade. If Imperium would simply devastate SC races due to it's sheer size, manpower and industrial power, they why weren't they able to destroy Tau, that also have tiny empire, and had to give up fighting them in order to deal with the Tyranid threat?

Doan already answered this. They would have utterly wiped out the Tau. No questions asked. (Because, regardless of technology, their empire is way too small to really do anything to the IOM. How fitting for this argument). They had to stop and deal with a Tyranid hive fleet because...well...they are WAY MORE dangerous than the Tau. Tyranid hive fleets consume a couple hundred worlds whenever they invade so, they have to be stopped as soon as possible. Which is another point. The Zerg have so little numbers compared to the tyranids that the zerg would be inconsequential to when the IOM would deal with them. I know this because I remember that the largest Brood (I think Jormungandr) had like 6,500,000 zerg in it. So even if all the broods were that large, and you combined them into one; they would barely scratch the surface of the numbers contained within a Hive fleet.

If they were stopped, and Imperium is still huge and powerful, then they were surely not unstoppable. The Zerg were able to devastate the most powerful race in SC universe, possessing immense knowledge and powers.

They were NIGH unstoppable. NIGH. The IOM won that because they had access to all the other tech that was available in the Dark Age of Technology. Which, if I may remind you, made them nearly invincible. So, not to sound contradictory, the Machines were badass and tough as hell. So was the war machine of the IOM even without the Ironmen. It was a hell of a fight. The IOM won (it wasn't like it was easy, they set the IOM's tech back for a couple thousand years). Then we come to the Zerg again. Yes they screwed the protoss, but the protoss sure as hell couldn't beat the imperium. So, in turn, the Zerg definitely can't.

But against Baneblade or Basilisk - for sure.

But to cause trouble to potential single strike force - perhaps.

Sorry, I don't get this logic.

I just try to point out, that they would have considerable chances in potential fight, e.g. invasion on one of their planets.

keep in mind that if Starcraft had to invade, they would also end up runing into Orkz and the other enemies. More than enough to mess their sh@t up good.

Overall: Even with its distractions, SC wouldn't be able handle the WH40K universe because there is too much regardless of the IOM. Like the Necrons. They are more advanced than anything in SC. Hands down. Hell, they have the most advanced tech in the WH40K universe. The Imperium's ships get absolutely ****ed by their scout ships (they almost reached earth once). The only reason they aren't SUPER dangerous right now, is because they are, for the most part, still in stasis on all of their different tomb worlds. Sometimes they wake up; and then they kill everything.

So, against all convenience,(as I said before) you can't simply rule out the other races of WH40K because you want to. It's everything that SC has VS everything WH40K has. There is no "only compare it to the Imperium because I say so" argument. Hell bring in the UED if you want. It won't save them.

How large was that fish? Because contemporary shotgun, if fired from short distance, also can reap fish into pieces.

The instance in question:

Originally posted by ”Eye of Terror,pg116”
Steam bubbled all along the length of the laser beam as it hissed through the water. But it failed to reach Aegelica. Instead, it struck a fish, nearly a yard long, which at that moment had glided between them. The fish exploded as the water in its body turned to steam. Fragments of flesh, skin, and bone drifted to the sea bed.

You did. I even had to remind you, that burning underwater is not the question of destructive power of the bomb, but of the oxidizer (example with M76 bomb produced during WWII).

The few other instances of the potential uses that I brought up of Promethium must have either flown over your head or have been deliberately ignored. In either case I’m going to bring up my previous statements:

Originally posted by ”Me”

Considering that promethium occurs naturally in 40k, than yeah. It’s also apparently capable of burning in space. It does have extremely high temperature but I understand if that’s not sufficient enough, so I’ll just point you to page 64 of Gaunts Ghost: First and Only where three men are incinerated (burnt to ashes) in nearly an instance. Promethium is also used as a fuel that helps achieve escape velocity from a planet’s surface in 40k. And the minimum amount of energy to do that with chemically based reactions takes about 60 megajoules per kilogram to escape a planet(our planet at least) gravity well.
In another instance, I.e. Caiphas Cain: Caves of Ice, a promethium refinery containing a few billions tons worth of that stuff of was detonated with a series of charges that caused a massive explosion that surpassed 2 gigatons worth of power (when considering that the shockwave reached a bit above the upper atmosphere.

Thought Marines' and Terminators' armours are made of plasteel.

How many Titans are there in Imperium? How often are they used?

About several hundred in service. There should also be the consideration that a Titan is absurdly powerful enough that it can kill hundreds of people in a single salvo of its lower denominator guns.

You see, there is another problem - guys from Blizzard, and the authors of the books based on SC, simply do not make up instances like this.

Because what about it - we're discussing the firepower of Meltaguns basing on the ice melting speed rate? That sounds ridiculous.

Originally posted by ”Caves of Ice”
His voice was drowned out by the abrupt hiss of the melta as Jurgen fired into the wall, instantly flashing a dozen cubic meters of ice into steam, which condensed almost instantly in the subzero temperatures, filling the narrow passageway with mist.

Ability to destroy (pardon, vaporize) a planet with single vessel convinces me, that it has huge firepower. Such cases do not.

They are armed with plasma cannons, that are usually portrayed as one of the most potent weapons in Sci-Fi.

They had to be equipped with those legs during firing, or they would fall. Explosions of their projectiles cause quakes.

That's "absolutely zero evidence"?

And is that an actual sufficient basis to determine its actual firepower capabilities beyond “It needs to brace itself for the potential recoil?” Problem with that, is that without actually knowing what its going to have to brace itself from, theres nothing reasonable there that would actually help measure its firepower.

And using instances, that are cool because of their impossibility to compare, as arguments in discussion, is a great thing?

E.g. the same fact of lurching the tank - does that really show the penetrating power of the cannon? Or just velocity of the projectile of the force it was used to "throw" it away from the barrel (which is based on its weight)?

Hard to tell. I probably simply enjoy entering senseless discussions.

And complain about how it’s all nonsense at the same time?

I just made a small example. Those two fictional universes are so different, that it's nonesense to compare them.

Level of firepower each race delivers?

And what makes you think that’s them deliberately trying to one up other science fiction universes? The same manner of which these firepower figures are calculated can be applies to practically any other science fiction universe out there provided there is a reasonable basis of measurement for it. How do you think the Turbolaser commentary pages were made on Stardestroyer.net? They take an instance of firepower, observe and analyze it base on reasonable evidence and come up with an approximate number.

I didn't say that. I told you about penetrating an armour of SC units. Because it is penetrated. But when you try to destroy Siege Tank with a single Ghost, it's time-consuming.

Originally posted by ”You”

In that you can use lockdown on an armoured vehicle, and destroy it with a weapon designed for killing infantry, before it regains ability to move.

And how do the Zerg move, in tiraliers? Or in dense swarms?

I never told about how many Zerg does single triangle represent. I simply said about the size of the surface those triangles covered.

Even 60% or 70% is well above the percentage of the Earth's surface we cover.

So how do you imagine this? Single Zergs, or small bunches of them, in distance of few kilometers from each other?

A planet can be effin huge. Of course they could be spaced that far apart. They’ve got space faring overlords for transport and extra mobility along with other aerial assets to assist in the invasion.

Zerg do not move like that, they march in huge swarms. And when all of them are invading one planet at one time, why would they separate into smaller groups, rather than forming a bloody dense swarm, growing as more and more Zerg arrive?

Why wouldn’t they? The Zerg aren’t stupid. They would damn well know enough to prioritize their numbers in certain regions that would actually require more of their numbers while also figuring out what doesn’t need that many Zerg in a certain area in the first place.

Like I said, I'm basing mainly on the size of the surface, not trying to answer, how many people are represented by single triangle.

For first, I simply believed, that through "destroying the planet" you meant blowing it up wholly, changing into a bunch of asteroids flying off into space everywhere. And when you've shown me that pic, I thought, that breaking through the planet into its core caused such destruction later.

Well, OK, but I would really like to see this ingame. Because when lore from the game does not accord to the fanfic, there's something not quite right about it.

They are still basing on real world nevertheless. They have tanks and armoured vehicles, just like us. They have KBots as equivalent of infantry.

They have aeroplanes and naval ships that are almost exactly like those of contemporary warfare.

The only differences are firepower and that technological miracle with units and structures being built instantly. This still doesn't change situation much.

It changes the situation alot. You don’t actually have to wait for reinforcements for such a long time anymore as your assets can now be fielded right there on the spot rather than acquisitioned from some base that is farther off. You have the means of defying the ideas of limitations on the battlefield, since the losses of any of your assets can be far easier to replace and can be easier to replenish. Basically, it bitchslaps conventional logistics right in the face and stomps on its nose.

Because if you can build next battleship instantly, your enemy can build ships instantly too, and sink all your battleships with air assets, at a minimum losses, leaving you with nothing.

Well, maybe with those ships you managed to build meanwhile, but your enemy already has entire fleet of them, and builds new ships instantly, just like you.

And that makes it quite very different from the modern world. The ability to replenish numbers and rebuild them quickly, changing the nature of Naval Warfare into something extremely unique.

Errr... World War II? World War I?

Which brings up again a question, why such archaic weaponry should be reintroduced in distant future, although it is considered arachronic even today.

So what? If you have 50% of your fleet (because those useless battleships were already sunk by air strikes), and enemy has 100% of it, you're finished. Building new ships in seconds won't save you, because - as you said - your enemy is on equivalent tech level, and build new ships in matter of seconds too, keeping advantage.

If your enemy build new ships at the same speed rate, increasing the power of his fleet already, while you are trying to REBUILD it, it won't save you.

I did. It took place at the borders of Tau space, didn't it?

Well, this shows, that Imperium probably would not destroy Terran Dominion, because it would have to give up the conquest in face of greater threat.

No. That threat showed up extremely close to home, which is why they had to call off the crusade mid-flight. It was basically some hellish plot device that essentially saved the blue men from total annihilation. The same plot device that the Terrans cannot rely on.

It doesn't change the fact, that SC races are not on peak of their technological advancement.

It doesn't change the fact, that SC races are not on peak of their technological advancement.

I didn't even notice that he said that. But it makes me wonder. We are not arguing what a hypothetical SC can do to WH40K.

We are arguing their superiority from where they are now. SC are not in the pinnacle of their tech but neither is the IOM. The IOM does however have 39,000 years on a (relatively speaking) "baby" civilization such as those in SC.

Looks like I can't win...

Originally posted by Goldman010
First, as doan stated early on, a Lasgun can go through 3 meters of concrete,

Which makes them more powerful than C-14 Impaler rifle only if it would appear, that it penetrates only two meters. And what if it appeared, that it penetrates four or five?
Besides, it makes rather small difference in a fight between IG infantry, and Terran infantry, where the second one is fully equipped in power armours, and the Guardsmen are barely armoured. They would be torn apart.

Originally posted by Goldman010
I don't know what Marine armor is made of, but it's tough stuff.

Plasteel, I think

Originally posted by Goldman010
If zerglings can shred Terran Marines, then what does that say about their armor? Zerglings=Rippers, and rippers cant penetrate Space Marine armor.

This is of course based on an assumption, that Zerglings are really the equivalents of Rippers in terms of strength and armour penetration ability. Besides, the Zerglings, as other Zerg, do not shred through the armour directly, but are aiming at the weak spots.

Originally posted by Goldman010
There are about 100 Titans in the Imperium. They are comon during Crusades or WAAAGH's! like Armagedon.

One hundred per million planets? Small chance, that they would use it in potential strike force. But if they did - well, this would put SC races in deep shit, I admit.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Instances for comparisons are the only conductive way to go about this debate.

Yes, but it is not always so simple to compare them.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Unless you know all the stats of both sides weapons and capabilities, then it's the only way to go.

But is still a moot point, compared to situation, where we have a direct statement, that e.g. Yamato Cannon delivers X teratons of firepower, C-14 Impaler rifle shots penetrate through X meters of concrete, or flames fired from Perdition Flame Throwers can melt a few dozen of cubic meters of ice in X seconds.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Canon is canon, no matter what you think. It's called Sci-fi because it's Science fiction, so calling something a "lie" in fiction is a moot point.

OK, then look at it in this way - in one universe someone makes up a weapon, that can destroy a whole planet, literally. In second one, someone makes up a weapon, that can barely "drill" to the planet's core. Now, the first guy states, that his weapon delivers firepower of teratons, and the other one, that his weapon has firepower well above petatons. So what should we believe in in situations like this? And why not call one of those guys a liar?

Originally posted by Goldman010
Games are not lore, fluff or canon.

In case of their mechanics, maybe not.
In case of plot, they are.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Codex's are the most reliable, second is Black Library books.

As far as I know, even in those books there are informations that exclude each other, e.g. in terms of the length of Imperial Navy ships.

Originally posted by Goldman010
Nothing Starcraft has can stop those threats short of destroying worlds. And I mean completly destroy. A tomb comlex underground aint gonna feel the surface burning.

SC races can tolerate some level of casualties. During Great War, Terrans lost many planets, and yet they are still fine. Protoss are in a bit worse situation, but they still can deliver firepower of enough might to penetrate the whole planet, to its core (in that case, even the fact that tomb complexes are underground, won't help them).

Originally posted by Goldman010
The Tau only exist because of plot armor. And the fact that the Tyranids barged in.

But they still do exist.

Originally posted by Goldman010
We can't say anything about Lockdown untill we know how it works.

It puts the vehicle into some kinda force field.

Originally posted by Goldman010
I think it's fair to say if it can't penetrate the armor, than it doesent work. So Baneblades and Lemans are safe, unless the lockdown missle is some super powerful armor piercing dril that we don't know about.

Like I said earlier, it's not the question of armour. Lockdowns do not penetrate through it. They don't have to - they just release that force field close to the target, closing it in it. When McGregor Golding used that Lockdown on the Reaver, he didn't even aimed at it - he aimed above it.

Originally posted by Goldman010
keep in mind that if Starcraft had to invade, they would also end up runing into Orkz and the other enemies. More than enough to mess their sh@t up good.

There you assume, that they need to run into many races at once, while invading one planet. Didn't doan_m explain to me, that conflicts like that in Dark Crusade aren't common?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
No, the Imperium is not technically the most powerful faction in the universe... but they are like tied for first because they are assaulted on all sides all the time and still beat ass.

No, I didn't say that it is technically the most powerful. I said that it is the most powerful in general - where its technology is not enough, there is still its sheer size, manpower, and industrial power, along with insane belief, that can be used to turn them into fanatic madmen (Space Marines is the best example).

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Now, just for clarification; what is it you are trying to prove? I'm serious, I'm not trying to sound condescending. I just mean like; you want to prove that starcraft is more powerful and would whip WH40K's ass?

Noooo...

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
or that they could take a certain amount of worlds

Maybe, but haaaardly.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
or just be a general thorn in the ass to the IOM?

If you would refer to Tau also as "thorn", then yes, let's put it this way.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Because if that's the case, the IOM has been dealing with plenty of more dangerous thorns for far longer than any of the Starcraft races.

This won't change the fact, that Terrans, or Protoss, or Zerg, would remain a thorn.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
The IOM would probably not really notice such a tiny place like the koprulu sector until they encroached on their worlds.

Probably. Or they would launch local equivalent of Damocles Gulf Crusade, just in order to cease it halfway because of another threat.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Doan already answered this. They would have utterly wiped out the Tau. No questions asked. (Because, regardless of technology, their empire is way too small to really do anything to the IOM. How fitting for this argument). They had to stop and deal with a Tyranid hive fleet because...well...they are WAY MORE dangerous than the Tau.

Tau still exist, anyway. So why shouldn't another small empire - something like Terran Dominion or UED - exist there.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
I know this because I remember that the largest Brood (I think Jormungandr) had like 6,500,000 zerg in it. So even if all the broods were that large, and you combined them into one; they would barely scratch the surface of the numbers contained within a Hive fleet.

Still, there is no telling, how many of those broods are there. Basing on the number of ingame player colours is a moot point.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
They were NIGH unstoppable. NIGH.

Fair enough.
I like expressions like this - they mean much, and nothing simultaneously.
That undead dragon from Gothic 2 was also described to be "nigh" invincible, and yet when I played as a mage, two spells were enough to send him back to hell.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
The IOM won that because they had access to all the other tech that was available in the Dark Age of Technology. Which, if I may remind you, made them nearly invincible.

So what is it exactly that prevented them from rebuilding that technology and further development?
Common brainwashing performed by Adeptus Ministorum?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Then we come to the Zerg again. Yes they screwed the protoss, but the protoss sure as hell couldn't beat the imperium.

I meant Xel'Naga, not the Protoss.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
A single strike force? Cause trouble? A "single" strike force sent by the imperium would be so much more massive than anything the SC races could put together. Remember the Ratio? 5000:1? Say each of those 5000 worlds sent ONE capital ship. ONE. they would be sending 5000 capital battlebarges (which you can't lock down) on your ass at a MINIMUM.

So much for theory, what about practice?
If a single battlebarge, with around 300 Space Marines as a land strike force, is considered to be an expedition suitable for conquering an entire planet, where six other factions are fighting, then I'm not so sure about those thousands of them.
And what's 300 men in power armours, if single Terran Dominion (hell, why TD already, Kel-Morian Combine or Umojan Protectorate would be enough) can send thousands of them?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
I will clear it up for you then. (...) So, trying to fight the Mother ****ing IOM RIGHT NOW is like the most horrible idea ever conceived. (And we are talking about the PRESENT time period for each fiction).

Okay, I get it.
But what about it? They were ravaged many times, and still they were able to wage war.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Thank you. I already brought this point up previously. Trust me DerSpeeder, the SC races would not, repeat, WOULD NOT just run into the IOM. They would run into a whole lot more shit. Like chaos. Which you didn't answer previously.

They would, but not into all races at once.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
The protoss, and just about anything with Psychic abilities, would get eaten by the Chaos gods.

Because?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Even with its distractions, SC wouldn't be able handle the WH40K universe because there is too much regardless of the IOM. Like the Necrons. They are more advanced than anything in SC. Hands down.

Well, yeah. But, like you said, they mostly remain in stasis. So the real question is how many of them would emerge. And even if they slaughtered everyone on a planet, losing one planet is still not a tragedy for Terrans.

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
Hell, they have the most advanced tech in the WH40K universe. The Imperium's ships get absolutely ****ed by their scout ships (they almost reached earth once).

What weapons do they have?

Originally posted by Jack Bleak
So, against all convenience,(as I said before) you can't simply rule out the other races of WH40K because you want to. It's everything that SC has VS everything WH40K has.

OK, then bring up some more of that WH40k stuff.

Originally posted by doan_m
The few other instances of the potential uses that I brought up of Promethium must have either flown over your head or have been deliberately ignored.

I REMEMBER.

Originally posted by doan_m
In another instance, I.e. Caiphas Cain: Caves of Ice, a promethium refinery containing a few billions tons worth of that stuff of was detonated with a series of charges that caused a massive explosion that surpassed 2 gigatons worth of power (when considering that the shockwave reached a bit above the upper atmosphere.

That's something new.
Look, you accuse me, that I hide behind lack of evidence, but you, on the other hand, are using that lack of evidence. What instance with Firebats shall I come up with, if there are not many of them, such as those above? And now, you try to say for certain, that Promethium is something of firepower well above than SC plasma fuel - just because there are no such instances on the other side? Which is not determined by the level of firepower the SC races deliver, but the fact, that people, who create fanfic or novels, simply do not want to make up such miracles?
What's the point of such discussion, if I have just to listen to all those instances, and remain silent in answer?

Originally posted by doan_m
About several hundred in service. There should also be the consideration that a Titan is absurdly powerful enough that it can kill hundreds of people in a single salvo of its lower denominator guns.

The question is, if they really decided to use one of those Titans against Terrans, if - as it is told - there are many greater threats for Imperium.
And those few hundreds, for an empire of million of worlds, is not many. Hell, I admit, that those Titans are big trouble for SC races (just like the firepower of Imperial Navy), but still, they need to decide to use them in the first place.

Originally posted by doan_m
So they have never written anything that can quantify their firepower? Is that what you’re suggesting?

More or less.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why would it be? It’s a good basis of measuring the firepower of the meltagun in question. It gives us an object that is set to be destroyed, what time frame it will be destroyed in, what the object is made of, and the size of it.

While there is no analogical instance in SC fanfic, it remains hard to compare.
Even read a novel where a Firebat tried to melt a certain amount of ice? Because I didn't. And I really can't say, what is its capability, should I compare meltagun to it.

Originally posted by doan_m
Didn’t I also point out against this? That “plasma” and its capabilities are all relative to whatever sci-fi there is in question?

So what kind of ammo does Leman Russ use, should we compare them?

Originally posted by doan_m
And is that an actual sufficient basis to determine its actual firepower capabilities beyond “It needs to brace itself for the potential recoil?” Problem with that, is that without actually knowing what its going to have to brace itself from, theres nothing reasonable there that would actually help measure its firepower.

So now I can tell too, that you are hiding behind lack of evidence? Still can't see the nonesense of this discussion?

Originally posted by doan_m
What makes it an impossibility to compare?

Let me put it another way. Sorry, I'll refer to my own Sci-verse's lore again, just for this example.
I stated, that if a Sthresian Defender appeared on contemporary Earth, and used his AGM-42 (assault hypersonic rifle) against contemporary tank (say, M1 Abrams), after the first short burst it would appear, that the tank was completely perforated on both sides - the bullets penetrated the armour, went quickly through the tank's inside, and then penetrated armour again, flying outside easily. Hell, why would we need Defender and AGM-42 already, also AGM-14 pulse rifle would do that. And even standard AGM-18 pistol.

That instance may sound cool, but what it means in practice? Nothing. How to compare this instance, of a rifle firing bullets, that are flying through whole tank, like its polimer armour was a paper, to any instance from WH40k? How to determine AGM-42 actual firepower, basing on it?

Originally posted by doan_m
And complain about how it’s all nonsense at the same time?

Yes. Strange, isn't it?

Originally posted by doan_m
That small example is still a comparison that pretty much covered what the outcome of a 40k vs DBZ scenario would be like. Practically like a thesis to a larger argument.

This doesn't change the fact, that when I try to imagine Son Goku, fighting ships of Imperial Navy, it makes me laugh aloud.

Originally posted by doan_m
Really? I recall you saying this

And I said about SC armours then.

Originally posted by doan_m
What would their mobility have to do with their density?

That they don't care forming tiraliers, but march in swarms?

Originally posted by doan_m
A planet can be effin huge. Of course they could be spaced that far apart. They’ve got space faring overlords for transport and extra mobility along with other aerial assets to assist in the invasion.

That was not a standard invasion, that was a flood, caused by emmiter. Probably even Cerebrates hardly controled that, as the Zerg simply sensed that emmiter and rushed in its direction.

Originally posted by doan_m
Why wouldn’t they? The Zerg aren’t stupid.

They were stupid in that instance. They just ran to the place where emmiter was set, and were destroying everything, what stood in their path. It was possible then to avoid their attack, staying out of their way (but, as Liberty noticed, Confederates of Delta Squadron were stupid enough to fly right in their way).