Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And once again we have had arguments that ended with a regular Malak most likely being equal to Dooku, an empowered Malak>Dooku, and Revan>any forms of Malak. So what would that say about Mace?
Do-Aho. What does that have to do with the fact you said I need to work on my "reading comprehension"? Ah, nothing. Great. I'm only arguing that I do not need to work on it as obviously I wasn't mistaken.
Originally posted by Advent
Do-Aho. What does that have to do with the fact you said I need to work on my "reading comprehension"? Ah, nothing. Great. I'm only arguing that I do not need to work on it as obviously I wasn't mistaken.
Obviously you were because you seem to think Dooku and Mace are equal while i'm telling you Mace was able to defeat Sidious in a saber combat, while Sidious is superior to Dooku in saber combat. The fact that Dooku beat Mace once EARLY in their lives, does not automatically put them on par. Oh, you obviously forgot about Mace's shatterpoint which alone would put him above Dooku in saber combat. So no, comparing Mace to Malak would be wrong, hence the reading comprehension comment.
Incorrect. I never judge the fact that Dooku beat him years ago. You like to use shit like "decided Malak = Dooku", tell me - reasons I should not be allowed to use "decided Dooku is on Mace's level"? Double standards, perhaps?
Here's reading comprehension for you:
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Obviously you were because you seem to think Dooku and Mace are equal
Originally posted by Advent
By level, it means just that - not that he is as strong, but he's close to it.
Close to is not equal. Equal levels perhaps, if that's what you meant.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yes, I mean equal to. I don't use these vague bullshit descriptions like "levels".When I say level, it usually means equal to, so maybe I should be clearer with you since the word game is played so much here.
Obviously you do need to be more clear. I made specifically clear what I meant by "level", how is that being "vague"? Describing exactly what I meant is somehow "vague"?
Awesome.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'd imagine Revan's era had as much, if not more warfare than the PT era. From the Sith War to the Jedi Civil War, which I feel was the bloodiest and most devastating war up until the Vong arrived in the galaxy.
Two sentences and two wrong statements.
First: The PT era had most conflicts and battles up to that point (besides the Jedi vs Sith era), aside of this: more training time (from infancy on).
Second: The Clone Wars were descriped as the most devastating war in galactic history up to that point (meaning they exceeded everything else).
But you have the likes of Kreia, Revan, Malak, who were the best, and some of their power is apparent. Kreia's force knowledge is almost unrivaled. Malak also had the ability to force drain but not on Kreia's level, and Revan was, well Revan.
Which is really funny...
Revan and Malak were promising students and the best out of those who went and did fight the Mandalorians. And that's it. Obviously (see the beginning of the KotoR storyline) Bastilla's battle meditation was enough to keep Revan's and then Malak's forces under control - can it be that she is more gifted than both of them ? Especially when you consider that they did send three people under Bastilla's command to capture Revan or take him down ?
Really. You act as if Malak and Revan were far above anybody else in the era while somehow ignoring that some Jedi did cut Malak's jaw off (which happened after Revan and Malak had found the Star Forge) and then (if it wasn't him) Kavar did also personally went to Malak and tried to kill him (and this was Malak when he did already control the Sith - and the SF).
Somehow Sexy it appears to me that you don't make much sense at all. You rate the KotoR era in general less powerful than the PT era but somehow believe that the "top dogs" of the KotoR era can beat the "top dogs" of the PT and NJO series despite the fact that the latter ones did have far more actual training and far more battle expirience. How does this make sense ?
And don't start handing out the "Dooku = Malak" argument as a fact. That was something I personally came up with based on the fact that we only see Malak using force choke and force lightning (like Dooku) and he possibly was a form II user (like Dooku). Still. Given advanced training and advanced experience Dooku might very well be more powerful than Malak and as far as I remember I've always argued that Dooku would be pretty well able to take Malak down.
It obviously doesn't make any sense to assume that Malak became super powerful using the SF. He refreshed his life energy using the Jedi which is nice - still Dooku did the very same in the ROTS novel without a giant Dark Side artifact helping him. And given that Malak didn't seem to be uber powerful (considering that Revan didn't pretty much learn nothing new - he just walked down a road again that he had already taken before). So what ? Even while Revan was always superior to Malak we don't know how close the gap between them was. I doubt Revan would chose apprentice that was far below him. And keeping that in mind the effect of the SF was obviously far away from "mindblowing" if Revan was still able to defeat Malak (at least 2 times in a row).
I still don't see were this - pretty much senseless - discussion places Revan over Mace. Revan might have been a lightsaber prodigy - but unlike Mace he did neither master 4 styles before his 13th birthday nor did he have 4 decades to perfect his own lightsaber form. Revan might have been a force prodigy but again - so was Mace and he had 5 decades of training, again in contrary to Revan who was in his late 20s or early 30s during the events displayed in KotoR. This is even leaving Mace's Shatterpoint ability (which is unique to him) aside.
And even if you chose to ignore all that: There is no way that Obi-Wan will last long against Mace or Kyle, not in lightsaber combat and even less in force combat. So why continue a debate that always - no matter how you put it - ends up with Mace + Kyle VS Revan ?
Lets play "How much bullshit I can find in a single post".
Originally posted by Borbarad
Two sentences and two wrong statements.
First: The PT era had most conflicts and battles up to that point (besides the Jedi vs Sith era), aside of this: more training time (from infancy on).
Second: The Clone Wars were descriped as the most devastating war in galactic history up to that point (meaning they exceeded everything else).
Which is really funny...
Revan and Malak were promising students and the best out of those who went and did fight the Mandalorians. And that's it. Obviously (see the beginning of the KotoR storyline) Bastilla's battle meditation was enough to keep Revan's and then Malak's forces under control - can it be that she is more gifted than both of them ? Especially when you consider that they did send three people under Bastilla's command to capture Revan or take him down ?
Really. You act as if Malak and Revan were far above anybody else in the era while somehow ignoring that some Jedi did cut Malak's jaw off (which happened after Revan and Malak had found the Star Forge) and then (if it wasn't him) Kavar did also personally went to Malak and tried to kill him (and this was Malak when he did already control the Sith - and the SF).
Somehow Sexy it appears to me that you don't make much sense at all. You rate the KotoR era in general less powerful than the PT era but somehow believe that the "top dogs" of the KotoR era can beat the "top dogs" of the PT and NJO series despite the fact that the latter ones did have far more actual training and far more battle expirience. How does this make sense ?
And don't start handing out the "Dooku = Malak" argument as a fact. That was something I personally came up with based on the fact that we only see Malak using force choke and force lightning (like Dooku) and he possibly was a form II user (like Dooku). Still. Given advanced training and advanced experience Dooku might very well be more powerful than Malak and as far as I remember I've always argued that Dooku would be pretty well able to take Malak down.
It obviously doesn't make any sense to assume that Malak became super powerful using the SF. He refreshed his life energy using the Jedi which is nice - still Dooku did the very same in the ROTS novel without a giant Dark Side artifact helping him. And given that Malak didn't seem to be uber powerful (considering that Revan didn't pretty much learn nothing new - he just walked down a road again that he had already taken before). So what ? Even while Revan was always superior to Malak we don't know how close the gap between them was. I doubt Revan would chose apprentice that was far below him. And keeping that in mind the effect of the SF was obviously far away from "mindblowing" if Revan was still able to defeat Malak (at least 2 times in a row).
I still don't see were this - pretty much senseless - discussion places Revan over Mace. Revan might have been a lightsaber prodigy - but unlike Mace he did neither master 4 styles before his 13th birthday nor did he have 4 decades to perfect his own lightsaber form. Revan might have been a force prodigy but again - so was Mace and he had 5 decades of training, again in contrary to Revan who was in his late 20s or early 30s during the events displayed in KotoR. This is even leaving Mace's Shatterpoint ability (which is unique to him) aside.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Lets play "How much bullshit I can find in a single post".
Default win for you.
Please show me where overall the Clone Wars are stated to be more devastating than the Jedi Civil War. As I recall, the Jedi Civil War left the Jedi all but extinct(as did the clone war for other reasons), and left planets decimated. So I'm wondering if what you're stating is fact or opinion.
As you recall ?
Uh-hu. First you shouldn't confuse the "Jedi Civil War" (Revan's and Malak's war against the Republic) with the "Sith Civil War" (Sion, Nihilus, Traya). The Jedi Civil War obviously left so many Jedi alive that Nihilus was later able to kill "thousands" of them when he destroyed Katarr. The attacks of Sion and Nihilus almost killed the Jedi yes but again the greatest part of that work was done by the destruction of Katarr.
So since when a either small strikes, political manouvers and assassinations (that Revan used - listen to HK 47) or more assassinations and one large scale attack (Nihilus + Sion) are more "devastating" than a galaxy spanning full scale war (which didn't even happen before) fought on thousands of planets with far advanced technology and more than hundert battles actually listed and descriped ?
Omg because we know less about them than the PT Jedi, they must suck!! And yes, Bastilla's gift for battle medtitation was unique, but that's all she had.
Wow. Pulling statements out of your ass again ? Did you simply miss the fact that the PT era Jedi had longer training times and more combat experience compared to virtually everybody we see in the KotoR games. No ? Oh well...
Ive never specified the levels of superiority between Revan, Malak, and the rest of the Jedi/Sith so don't put words in my mouth or accuse me of insinuating something I didn't. Revan and Malak WERE however above all the Jedi/Sith. And again, you don't exactly know who caught off his Jaw, for all you know it might have been Revan, so stop speculating.
It can have been anybody except Revan since this was done by a Jedi. Obviously Revan was not a Jedi when he was a Sith (and we see Malak still having his jaw while they are searching for the SF) and the next time they meet Malak's jaw was already removed. So please...
Before I tell you to learn how to read, please show me where I said the top dogs of KOTOR can beat the top dogs of PT, or ESPECIALLY NJO? I'll wait Nai. And omgz, they have more experience, they MUST be uber! By your logic everyone from the PT>everyone from KOTOR. Nice.. And what's the problem with saying that even though the PT era had more powerful Jedi as a whole, it is possible that an era of far weaker Jedi could produce 1 or 2 more powerful jedi/sith, such as Exar Kun, Malak, Ulic, Revan? Please. Oh, and all I was arguing was the fact that Revan was in the same league as Yoda and Mace.
ROFL !
Please. More inconsistency ! So...you are arguing that Revan and Malak are in one league with Dooku, Mace and Yoda - but in the same time you somehow manage it not to argue that the "top dogs of KotoR" (aka Revan and Malak) would be able to beat the "top dogs of the PT" (aka Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Sidious) ? Wow. If you can explain to me how that works I would be rather impressed.
"Hey look. X is in one league with Y but he can't beat Y. Still I prolong this argument by arguing against my own idea that X can't beat Y by trying to provide proof that X can beat Y." Makes much sense, dude.
Ok, so experience>everything? By that logic Yoda should have whiped the floor with Sidious.
Two people have equal talent. One receives more training and experience. Who wins in a contest between them ? Was Malak "one of the most powerful Jedi the Order produced in the last centuries" ? I guess he has to line up behind the likes of Exar, Ulic, Nomi, Vodo, Thon, Odan, Ood etc.... Was Malak able to "defeat Jedi council members in lightsaber duels without using the force" ? Hmm...
Ok so you just typed up a paragraph full of pure speculation, nice.
Lets see, Malak says the star forge increased his powers, Bastilla says the same, Malak then goes on to say Revan is even more powerful than he was when he was DLOTS, so I would say Malak's opinion>yours
Let's see. What were the actual quotes again ? Let's see: How did Revan gain experience by repeating his own prior actions ? Hm. How much more powerful were Revan and Malak ("boosted" by the SF) compared to their original level ? How much power is that compared to Mace and Kyle ? Wow. Nice of accusing me to "type up paragraphs full of pure speculation" while your entire argument consists of nothing but speculation.
I still don't see where you get the Revan>Mace argument from, when all I ever argued was Revan being in Mace's and Yoda's league. And stop playing the quantity game, because again with your logic, Yoda should have skull****ed Sidious.
Why you argue at all if you don't have the idea that Revan > Mace, meaning that Revan and Obi-Wan are going to lose anyway. Oh wait...I forgot...you're the forum troll...
Originally posted by Borbarad
Default win for you.
As you recall ?
Uh-hu. First you shouldn't confuse the "Jedi Civil War" (Revan's and Malak's war against the Republic) with the "Sith Civil War" (Sion, Nihilus, Traya). The Jedi Civil War obviously left so many Jedi alive that Nihilus was later able to kill "thousands" of them when he destroyed Katarr. The attacks of Sion and Nihilus almost killed the Jedi yes but again the greatest part of that work was done by the destruction of Katarr.
So since when a either small strikes, political manouvers and assassinations (that Revan used - listen to HK 47) or more assassinations and one large scale attack (Nihilus + Sion) are more "devastating" than a galaxy spanning full scale war (which didn't even happen before) fought on thousands of planets with far advanced technology and more than hundert battles actually listed and descriped ?
Wow. Pulling statements out of your ass again ? Did you simply miss the fact that the PT era Jedi had longer training times and more combat experience compared to virtually everybody we see in the KotoR games. No ? Oh well...
ROFL !
Please. More inconsistency ! So...you are arguing that Revan and Malak are in one league with Dooku, Mace and Yoda - but in the same time you somehow manage it not to argue that the "top dogs of KotoR" (aka Revan and Malak) would be able to beat the "top dogs of the PT" (aka Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Sidious) ? Wow. If you can explain to me how that works I would be rather impressed.
Two people have equal talent. One receives more training and experience. Who wins in a contest between them ? Was Malak "one of the most powerful Jedi the Order produced in the last centuries" ? I guess he has to line up behind the likes of Exar, Ulic, Nomi, Vodo, Thon, Odan, Ood etc.... Was Malak able to "defeat Jedi council members in lightsaber duels without using the force" ? Hmm...
Let's see. What were the actual quotes again ? Let's see: How did Revan gain experience by repeating his own prior actions ? Hm. How much more powerful were Revan and Malak ("boosted" by the SF) compared to their original level ? How much power is that compared to Mace and Kyle ? Wow. Nice of accusing me to "type up paragraphs full of pure speculation" while your entire argument consists of nothing but speculation.
Why you argue at all if you don't have the idea that Revan > Mace, meaning that Revan and Obi-Wan are going to lose anyway. Oh wait...I forgot...you're the forum troll...
Ah, the name calling, aka the last resort of an angry and bitter imbecile.. If I'm such a forum troll, then don't waste your time, nor mine, if you plan on whining like a little ***** at the end.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Perhaps you missed the trailer video for KOTOR 2, and the beginning of KOTOR 2, and the random stories Traya gives to the Exile about Revan. This is all before you truly understand what happened in the Jedi Civil War. Unless you can find a war that is confirmed to be more devastating than the Jedi Civil War, which left the Jedi almost extinct, I'm inclined to say this was the most devastating one. And Nihilus killed thousands of Jedi on Katarr? I didn't know there were thousands of Jedi on Katarr, I believe there were a few, unless you want to make up more numbers or actually have a source backing this up.
This is correct. The Jedi Civil War did leave the Jedi Order in shambles, and I don't know how it could be "thousands" when Kreia says this:
"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."
'As you recall ?
Uh-hu. First you shouldn't confuse the "Jedi Civil War" (Revan's and Malak's war against the Republic) with the "Sith Civil War" (Sion, Nihilus, Traya). The Jedi Civil War obviously left so many Jedi alive that Nihilus was later able to kill "thousands" of them when he destroyed Katarr. The attacks of Sion and Nihilus almost killed the Jedi yes but again the greatest part of that work was done by the destruction of Katarr.'
Not true. Did you miss the part where '"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."'?
'Wow. Pulling statements out of your ass again ? Did you simply miss the fact that the PT era Jedi had longer training times and more combat experience compared to virtually everybody we see in the KotoR games. No ? Oh well...'
1. Longer training time? What are you talking about.
2. The PT jedi had jack battle experience when it came to saber combat.
'It can have been anybody except Revan since this was done by a Jedi. Obviously Revan was not a Jedi when he was a Sith (and we see Malak still having his jaw while they are searching for the SF) and the next time they meet Malak's jaw was already removed. So please...'
For all you know it might have been multiple jedi, so stop speculating.
Originally posted by Advent
This is correct. The Jedi Civil War did leave the Jedi Order in shambles, and I don't know how it could be "thousands" when Kreia says this:"The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings."