Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Perhaps you missed the trailer video for KOTOR 2, and the beginning of KOTOR 2, and the random stories Traya gives to the Exile about Revan.
The KotoR 2 trailer is a reference to the things Sion and Nihilus did - not to Revan's actions during the Jedi Civil War hence I said you shouldn't confuse that events.
This is all before you truly understand what happened in the Jedi Civil War. Unless you can find a war that is confirmed to be more devastating than the Jedi Civil War, which left the Jedi almost extinct, I'm inclined to say this was the most devastating one.
Oh my...you can't judge the "devastation" caused by the number of Jedi killed in it, especially not when the people on one side specifically targetted Jedi with special op units (Atton) or Sith Assassins (Sion, Nihilus) or large scale force attacks (the destruction of Katarr). If somebody throws a nuclear bomb on the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and kills all Jedi with that (just an example) the "devastation" on a Galactic Scale would be pretty much non-existant. By this logic the "Great Jedi Purge" was more devastating than the Clone Wars. Doesn't make much sense.
Revan was using stealth tactics rather then brute force. His Sith assassins abducted Jedi (for converting them to the Dark Side) or killed them. He used HK-47 to eliminate politicians and Jedi as well. So where was the "devastation" here ? Aside from special events (Telos Bombing) Revan wanted to save resources hence he didn't really destroy much. In contrary to the Republic Forces and the CIS (who are said to have been the two biggest armies in the Galactic History) during the Clone Wars (who have been stated to be the greatest military conflict to that point) Revan didn't flex his "military" muscles much.
And Nihilus killed thousands of Jedi on Katarr? I didn't know there were thousands of Jedi on Katarr, I believe there were a few, unless you want to make up more numbers or actually have a source backing this up.
He killed the entire remaining order save for those people that the Exile meets in KotoR 2. And sorry...Kreia is far away from being a infallible source when it comes to the size of the remaining Jedi Order - because she is no Jedi. I, personally, find it rather stupid to assume that Revan and Nihilus + Sion should have been more efficient in hunting down remaining Jedi (until Katarr) with the (in comparison) few troops they had than the Empire in later times.
Actually the Jedi Civil War was a galaxy spanning war, unless you want to argue with facts..
See above. It wasn't a "war" in the normal meaning of the word. Revan abducted Jedi and assassinated Jedi / politicians. It's even stated that prefered stealth tactics over brute force. The Clone Wars were dominated by head-to-head combat between Clones and Droids with the Jedi participating.
And did you simply forget that quantity isn't everything? If it was, Yoda would have tooled Sidious, but he didn't. So there goes your theory.
I totally fail to understand why you simply ignore that I said "given a similar potential, the guy with more training and experience wins". Yoda limited himself through the Jedi Code (no "real" agressive action), Sidious didn't. Aside from the fact that the Dark Side tends to make persons stronger (see dialogue between Yoda and Dooku in AotC).
So wait wait, if I put Revan in a league with Mace and Yoda, that means I'm implying Revan would tool them? Wow Nai nice interpretation. Here's another one. It means Revan is in their league, that I doubt he would win against Yoda more times than not, but he is in the same league with Yoda and Mace. Now Malak MIGHT be in the same league as them, but its highly unlikely he has a chance against anyone but Dooku. I can't quantify his SF power in regards to a versus fight against Mace or Yoda.
What a weak cover up for your lack of logic.
By putting Revan in the same league with Mace and Yoda you obviously credit him with the ability to defeat them (even if they win more often than not). Otherwise the entire statement doesn't make sense. And if Malak "might" beat Dooku he also has a chance of beating Mace given that they are almost equal.
Oh, because you know for a fact Malak and Dooku had equal talent and potential? Again, your theory goes out the shitter when Anakin beat Dooku, and Yoda stalemated Sidious. And yes, a star forge powered Malak is superior to Dooku in the force.
We know that Anakin had by far more potential than Dooku. We know that Yoda did limit himself to non agressive force use. So how does this affect my theory ?
And nice double-standarts. If we don't know how powerful Malak is compared to Dooku, how can you say that a "SF powered Malak" is superior to Dooku in terms of force powers ?
Dooku was one of the most powerful people the Order had produced in the last centuries and he was the second best duellist the order had (at least in times of TPM) behind Yoda. Now in AotC Yoda himself states that Dooku had become even stronger than in his Jedi days, when he was able to defeat Council Members in lightsaber duels without using the force, due to the Dark Side.
Malak was far away from being one of the most gifted people in the last centuries considering the people we have seen in the TOTJ comics and calling him a lightsaber prodigy might also be a little bit overrating him given that he needed quite some time to defeat Padawan Bastilla. Dooku pretty much tooled people like AotC Anakin / Obi-Wan, ROTS Obi-Wan, Sora Bulq and Asajj Ventress.
Yes, nothing but speculation.. Oh and actual quotes from characters disproving your rambling nonsense. So once again, Malak CLAIMED Revan became more powerful than when he was DLOTS, so there goes yet another theory.
You still don't get it. You have exactly nothing to quantify the amount of power gained through the usage of the Star Forge. Obviously it didn't prevent Malak from having his jaw removed by a Jedi. Obviously it didn't enable Malak to kill Kavar when Kavar was coming to face him. Obviously it didn't enable Malak to defeat Revan who couldn't have gained much experience between his capture by the Jedi and the final duel with Malak due to the fact that he almost only "relearned" things. So the both can't have been far more powerful compared to their non-SF-power-boost selves (or pre-capture selves in case of Revan).
On the same level I could say Dooku must be able to tool Mace Windu because he was able to beat him in times of TPM and became far more powerful by using the Dark Side. Somehow this wasn't the case.
Ah, the name calling, aka the last resort of an angry and bitter imbecile.. If I'm such a forum troll, then don't waste your time, nor mine, if you plan on whining like a little ***** at the end.
Does anybody beside me spot the ironical stupidity here ? Calling "name calling" the "last resort of an angry and bitter imbecile" and thereby just commit name calling yourself is quite funny enough, especially from the guy that called IKC a "Jackass" in his absence for not agreeing with him and called the entirety of the Senior Members of EoD "hypocrites" for no reason.
Aside of that "stating the truth" isn't "name calling" - at worst it's some act of impoliteness.
By putting Revan in the same league with Mace and Yoda you obviously credit him with the ability to defeat them (even if they win more often than not). Otherwise the entire statement doesn't make sense. And if Malak "might" beat Dooku he also has a chance of beating Mace given that they are almost equal.
Comparing Malak and Dooku and Malak and Mace is totally different. Using Nick Gillard's standards, Mace, Yoda, Sids, and Anakin are all Level 9s. Dooku is a Level 8, and Obi-Wan is an 8. I would say Malak is an 8. That's a big difference since Anakin (Lv 9) beat Dooku (Lv 8.5) and it wasn't a very long duel either. Therefore, comparing Malak and Mace is irrelevent.
By meaning same league doesn't mean one person can beat the other. Anakin is in the same league as Yoda, does that mean Anakin can beat Yoda? No!!!
Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Comparing Malak and Dooku and Malak and Mace is totally different. Using Nick Gillard's standards, Mace, Yoda, Sids, and Anakin are all Level 9s. Dooku is a Level 8, and Obi-Wan is an 8. I would say Malak is an 8. That's a big difference since Anakin (Lv 9) beat Dooku (Lv 8.5) and it wasn't a very long duel either. Therefore, comparing Malak and Mace is irrelevent.By meaning same league doesn't mean one person can beat the other. Anakin is in the same league as Yoda, does that mean Anakin can beat Yoda? No!!!
It's so obvious that Nick Gillards "level system" for that people is meaningless because it's contradicted by the actual evidence and totally ignores the EU.
Obi-Wan (level 8) > Anakin (level 9) after the longest lightsaber battle we have seen so far.
Aside of this Yoda is pretty much in his own league considering that Mace rated Depa Billaba above himself in terms of sheer bladework and Mace + two other Jedi attacking Yoda at once weren't able to touch him. So what ? Do you really want to asign this stuff in debates ? I guess Nick "Cin Drallig is the only level 10 duellist" Gillard will run rampant through the Galaxy in this case...being able (according to Gillard) to take down Maul, ROTS Obi-Wan and ROTS Anakin at once, huh ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
The KotoR 2 trailer is a reference to the things Sion and Nihilus did - not to Revan's actions during the Jedi Civil War hence I said you shouldn't confuse that events.
Wrong. Traya confirms this concerning the Jedi Civil War.
Oh my...you can't judge the "devastation" caused by the number of Jedi killed in it, especially not when the people on one side specifically targetted Jedi with special op units (Atton) or Sith Assassins (Sion, Nihilus) or large scale force attacks (the destruction of Katarr). If somebody throws a nuclear bomb on the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and kills all Jedi with that (just an example) the "devastation" on a Galactic Scale would be pretty much non-existant. By this logic the "Great Jedi Purge" was more devastating than the Clone Wars. Doesn't make much sense.
Revan was using stealth tactics rather then brute force. His Sith assassins abducted Jedi (for converting them to the Dark Side) or killed them. He used HK-47 to eliminate politicians and Jedi as well. So where was the "devastation" here ? Aside from special events (Telos Bombing) Revan wanted to save resources hence he didn't really destroy much. In contrary to the Republic Forces and the CIS (who are said to have been the two biggest armies in the Galactic History) during the Clone Wars (who have been stated to be the greatest military conflict to that point) Revan didn't flex his "military" muscles much.
He killed the entire remaining order save for those people that the Exile meets in KotoR 2. And sorry...Kreia is far away from being a infallible source when it comes to the size of the remaining Jedi Order - because she is no Jedi. I, personally, find it rather stupid to assume that Revan and Nihilus + Sion should have been more efficient in hunting down remaining Jedi (until Katarr) with the (in comparison) few troops they had than the Empire in later times.
See above. It wasn't a "war" in the normal meaning of the word. Revan abducted Jedi and assassinated Jedi / politicians. It's even stated that prefered stealth tactics over brute force. The Clone Wars were dominated by head-to-head combat between Clones and Droids with the Jedi participating.
[I totally fail to understand why you simply ignore that I said "given a similar potential, the guy with more training and experience wins". Yoda limited himself through the Jedi Code (no "real" agressive action), Sidious didn't. Aside from the fact that the Dark Side tends to make persons stronger (see dialogue between Yoda and Dooku in AotC).
What a weak cover up for your lack of logic.
By putting Revan in the same league with Mace and Yoda you obviously credit him with the ability to defeat them (even if they win more often than not). Otherwise the entire statement doesn't make sense. And if Malak "might" beat Dooku he also has a chance of beating Mace given that they are almost equal.
And nice double-standarts. If we don't know how powerful Malak is compared to Dooku, how can you say that a "SF powered Malak" is superior to Dooku in terms of force powers ?
Dooku was one of the most powerful people the Order had produced in the last centuries and he was the second best duellist the order had (at least in times of TPM) behind Yoda. Now in AotC Yoda himself states that Dooku had become even stronger than in his Jedi days, when he was able to defeat Council Members in lightsaber duels without using the force, due to the Dark Side.
Malak was far away from being one of the most gifted people in the last centuries considering the people we have seen in the TOTJ comics and calling him a lightsaber prodigy might also be a little bit overrating him given that he needed quite some time to defeat Padawan Bastilla. Dooku pretty much tooled people like AotC Anakin / Obi-Wan, ROTS Obi-Wan, Sora Bulq and Asajj Ventress.
You still don't get it. You have exactly nothing to quantify the amount of power gained through the usage of the Star Forge. Obviously it didn't prevent Malak from having his jaw removed by a Jedi. Obviously it didn't enable Malak to kill Kavar when Kavar was coming to face him. Obviously it didn't enable Malak to defeat Revan who couldn't have gained much experience between his capture by the Jedi and the final duel with Malak due to the fact that he almost only "relearned" things. So the both can't have been far more powerful compared to their non-SF-power-boost selves (or pre-capture selves in case of Revan).
On the same level I could say Dooku must be able to tool Mace Windu because he was able to beat him in times of TPM and became far more powerful by using the Dark Side. Somehow this wasn't the case.
Does anybody beside me spot the ironical stupidity here ? Calling "name calling" the "last resort of an angry and bitter imbecile" and thereby just commit name calling yourself is quite funny enough, especially from the guy that called IKC a "Jackass" in his absence for not agreeing with him and called the entirety of the Senior Members of EoD "hypocrites" for no reason.
Aside of that "stating the truth" isn't "name calling" - at worst it's some act of impoliteness.
Right, because your opinion=fact. I'm going to chuckle at that one.
No. You are simply assuming he's talking about that without it being mentioned. They only used the SF for starship production, then the officer comes up and says that they are producing 3 times as many starships as they did when Revan was in charge and then Malak comes up with the statement that "if Revan had discovered all the power of the SF he would have been invincible". Yeah. What were they talking about ? Starship production - not some other power which is never mentioned and never used.If the SF makes somebody powerful then you might tell me why Malak did install those Jedi there to heal himself up and - despite of the fact that Revan and him were almost equal and he now had the SF and the Jedi to heal himself as additional resources - had his ass handed to Revan again...
It is rather funny that you ignore the fact that Bastila, despite being struck down thrice by Revan, rose up yet again empowered each time.
Also, Revan was already aware of the Star Forge's primary function. When Malak stated Revan was 'stupid' he was mentioning the ability of the Star Forge to empower a darksider with force energy. But of course Fohl, you can continue selecting those points from KOTOR that you want to see, instead of looking at what the game really states.
WTF ? Read Shatterpoint, the CW era novels / comics and watch the CW cartoons
Clone Wars is bullshit. If Windu could defeat an army of droids with his bare hands, why didn't he just PWN all those droids in AOTC by himself?
Wow. He was only barely able to block a sustained wave of force lightning at point blank range when we saw a single blast of it having enough energy to push Yoda through Sidious office ?
Oh wow. What people can make out of the sentence that he "pulled lightning from the sky"...
It is possible that none force users don't see the force energy coming from the hand but only that, which comes down from the sky in form of lightning. Hence they exactly saw this and nothing more.
Ridiculous. If you only look at the back of KOTOR's cover, any dimwitted fool who possesses two functional organs called "eyes" can see that the "storm" comes from the fingertips. If you are going to be thickheaded about Revan's feat of calling lightning from sky, be my guest Fohl.
And Sidious obliterated a Battalion of Stormtroopers with force lightning. A batallion, according to the information given about the Republic army, consisted of 576 Clones commanded by a Major. So ups...he actually killed far more people than Revan did.
So killing more makes you stronger? I guess Darth Maul must be a ****ing god taking out the entirety of the Black Sun?
Revan is stronger than ROTS Sidious, but not his DE incarnation. Do not intentionally be vague.
If you wish, create a thread and we can argue this.
How can something, that you have never seen, be "visually descriped" as far superior to something that the guy, who gave the description has never seen before, huh ? Fallible third party sources are nothing to base an argument on.
Explain how the Rakatan's were hyperbolyzing, especially when they recognize the appearance of conventional lightning attacks (the more civilized ones used lightning to defend their fortress from the primitive Rakatans). It is not too hard to distinguish a storm from some lightning coming from the fingertips.
Other than your assumption that it's far greater in magnitude based on the comment of a fallible source it's pretty obvious, that something able to kill 576 Stormtroopers trumps the ability that killed one Rakatan scouting party (small Rancor, some Rakatans).
How is it an assumption if there are witnesses who have seen the scouting party killed. If you want to argue the validity of this source, complain to Bioware, NOT to me.
Get it through your skull that the Rakatans are fallible third party source who don't know jack shit about force powers.
Wow, how much do you need to know about force powers to identify lightning as coming from the sky and not from the "fingertips?" Your rebuttals are becoming ridiculous fast.
Get it through your skull that none force users might only see the lightning coming from the sky.
LOL, wtf? How f*cking difficult, Fohl, is it to recognize lightning coming from the sky and not the fingertips?
This would still not come even close to Sidious obliterating more than 500 stormtroopers with a single use of force lightning.
If I started stomping on 100 ants with my feet alone, does it mean I can win in a fight against someone with a bazooka who decided (maybe stupidly) to blast one ant?
Regardless...since we have seen Mace being able to block Sidious force lightning, which is more powerful than whatever Revan used, I don't see Revan being able to kill Mace using the force.
Right Fohl, you have seen Sidious lightning by ROTS in the movies (highest authority) and it is nothing like a storm of lightning bolts originating from the sky.
You are obviously as stupid as somebody can be, huh ? If I have one ability, that allows me to forsee what happens in the next 10 seconds (Echani Precog) and another ability that allows me to forsee what happens in the next 20 seconds (Jedi precog) how would it help me to have both abilities ? How can precognition be "synergistic" ? Either you know what happens in the next 10 seconds or you don't. Two abilities that make you know what happens in the next 10 seconds aren't better than one ability that does the same - because in either way you would know what happens in the next 10 seconds.
This is pathetic.
Lets just take a look at KOTOR 2 kid. The Jedi Exile, when he discovers Echani precognition not only has the benefit of his jedi precognition, but also that of his newly found Echani precog as well. You can see, (although slightly gameplay based) that what happens is that the Exile's wisdom modifier stacks with the AC bonus granted from the Jedi precognition. Thus the abilities are synergistic of one another.
Now I am not trying to bring in gameplay into this, but it is easily observed that Echani precognition stacks with Jedi precognition. Now if you want an example of how this translates into the argument: I can sense an attack 30 seconds before it happens. Since I have Jedi precognition, I can sense it say, 40s before it happened. Echani precognition makes me even more aware to what happens around me, giving me an added awarenesss bringing it up to 50s for me to react how I want to an attack . The two types of preconition are described as working together to make the Jedi even more aware.
Since when can a lightsaber form directly stop force attacks, huh ? It can't. He can use Soresu until he's blue in the face - that won't stop Mace or Kyle to wipe the floor with him using their superior force powers.
You are missing the point entirely. The most important fact is his state of mind. He is not going to try and take down the opponent (using the force offensively), but prolong the duel. It doesn't matter how much stronger Kyle is, it is still going to take him some time to cut through Kenobi's defence.
I'm sorry, but your NJO and PT "gods" are not going to survive this battle.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wrong. Traya confirms this concerning the Jedi Civil War.
The events happening after the destruction of the Star Forge don't belong to the Jedi Civil War any longer. Got it now ?
I'm not merely judging it by the Jedi, it's destruction left countless planets in rubble.
It did ? Name some ! The only planets that were kind of "destroyed" are Telos (almost complete surface destruction), Dantooine (surrounding of the Academy) and Malachor V.
During the Clone Wars you have some planets pretty much wasted by the Dark Reaper, some colonies exterminated by "swamp gas", several planets with CIS HQ's almost glassed (like Muunilinst). You have the nice "Bassadro Massacre" on Coruscant, the ruling families of Ord Cestus wiped from existance by orbital bombardment, the complete surface destruction of Parcellus Minor. The live on Honoghr was pretty much wiped from existance when the Gahenna carrying a load of a deadly toxin crashed on the planet. We have multiple planets taken down by Stone Mites. Grievous melted the crust of Humbarine and unleashed the Loedorvian Brain Plague in the Weemell Sector killing almost the entire human sector population.
Want to talk about "devastation" ? I guess the Loedorvian Brain Plague on it's own was more devastating than all prior Galactic conflicts together.
Please tell me where it's stated that the Clone Wars were the biggest conflict up to this point? And what is your point about what Revan did? Sidious got to the top by political maneuvering, should we consider him as a weakling? No, so whats your point?
See above. And my point about what Revan did was that - unlike the Clone Wars - the Jedi Civil War was not a war that was coined by the usage of brute force.
Wrong. You have absolutely NO proof/evidence that there were thousands of Jedi on Katarr. From what we know it was the remaining Jedi that survived the Jedi Civil War. And Kreia is a historian, how the hell is she a fallible source? She seems to know the history of the ancient sith well, but for some reason she should confuse the events of only a few years past? Please Nai, spare your nonsense. Kreia's history lessons are fact from what we see. And yes, Revan, Nihilus, and Sion were more efficient in hunting down Jedi. Not really hunting down Jedi, but converting Jedi as Revan did. The rest was done by Nihilus and Sion.
What does the current amount of Jedi in the Galaxy at Kreia's time have to do with history ? Sion and Nihilus believed that they have killed all but one Jedi (the Exile) and they were obviously wrong.
And if we are at that topic: We know that Bastilla survived. They kill off all Jedi and "forget" the greatest threat ? If Bastilla managed to do this it's quite plausible that Juhani and Jolee survived too. We know that Vima Sunrider (possibly Nomi herself too) also survived (since a direct descendant is alive in the PT era), we know that at least one member of the Baas family survived (Bodo as descendant alive in the PT) and I doubt the Sith were able to lay hands on Thon.
The amount of surviving Jedi is simply unknown.
Actually it was a war, stop arguing with facts. It was a war pitting the sith against the Jedi and the republic. Yes, a WAR in the normal sense.
See above and stop boring me. If somebody relies on "stealth tactics" rather than brute force I doubt this can really be called a "war".
I ignore it because you seem to assume character X and character Y somehow seem to have the same potential without providing any evidence. And as to the other part of your sentence, see Anakin vs. Obiwan.
Anakin was cocky and therefore was defeated. What about citing examples that actually fit if you want to argue with me ?
Yes, my lack of logic. I'm glad because you say so it's automatically true. Oh wait. And yes, if you want to play that game Malak MIGHT beat Mace but it's highly unlikely due to Mace's shatterpoint. He can be in the same league but he wouldn't beat Yoda or Mace. Revan is definitely in the same league because I see him beating Dooku and possibly Mace, whether more times than not or vice versa.
You see Revan beating Dooku based on what exactly ?
If you are going to deduce that Malak=Dooku at the very best, then I'm going to deduce that a star forge powered Malak>Dooku.
I think that I already deduced that Dooku > Malak. So ?
Malak was far away from being gifted? That's why he was #2 in an order of thousands of Jedi and Sith? Hmm, he must have been #2 for his good looks. I like your logic though.. It's funny. According to you, a lightsaber prodigy of TOTJ times automatically<lightsaber prodigy in PT times. Because that is a logical theory. Ah the star wars universe according to Nai.
Oh please.
I've said that Malak was far away from being one of "the most powerful Jedi had produced in the last centuries" (see the TOTJ era people) and for lightsaber combat there is still the damn fact that the PT people trained with that weapon from infancy on. Are Malak or Revan shown to beat opponents on the level of Jedi Council Members without using the force - if not Dooku > them. Are Revan or Malak shown to have mastered more than four styles and invented a new one ? No ? Mace Windu > them.
Malak's jaw was removed before he figured out the true power of the star forge Nai, so your point is moot. And Malak couldn't kill Revan because Revan became even more powerful than he was as a DLOTS. That's like saying "Oh since you can't quantify Raynar's 365 planets, Exar Kun is still more powerful". You're right, we can't quantify Malak's power if we compare him to DOoku, but if him and Dooku are equal, it's more than safe to say he's superior to Dooku with the SF.
The entire point is that Revan for almost a year was wiped from his memory. Than he "recovered" his memory during his second quest to find the Star Maps. How would he be much more powerful than he was before ? He went through basic Jedi training - which he had done before. He again searched and found the Star Maps - which he had done before.
I'm not questioning that the SF gave some additional abilities to Malak but by sheer logic it obviously didn't much.
Yea, that's because Mace realized his shatterpoint afterwards?
What are you talking about ?
Right, because your opinion=fact. I'm going to chuckle at that one.
No, because facts = facts. And I know you're going to chuckle at that one too.