Post Star Forge Revan & ROTS Obi-Wan vs. ROTS Mace & Kyle Katarn

Originally posted by jollyjim311
... Does that not count? And if Malak was unchallenged, why'd he lose his jaw in lightsaber combat.

You've listed feat wars, that's nice. I don't see how those put Mace above Revan? It can already be established that a SW powered Maka>Dooku, and Revan>Malak, so Revan would either be equal to Mace or superior to him. And what exactly happened to Malak's jaw is unknown. Let's say he did lose it to Kvar, you can't use that in an argument. For all you know he lost it to Kavar at the beginning of his fall to the dark side. Malak became more and more powerful overtime, ESPECIALLY when he took control of the star forge.

He probably lost it to Revan himself.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You've listed feat wars, that's nice. I don't see how those put Mace above Revan? It can already be established that a SW powered Maka>Dooku, and Revan>Malak, so Revan would either be equal to Mace or superior to him. And what exactly happened to Malak's jaw is unknown. Let's say he did lose it to Kvar, you can't use that in an argument. For all you know he lost it to Kavar at the beginning of his fall to the dark side. Malak became more and more powerful overtime, ESPECIALLY when he took control of the star forge.

I've listed accomplishments that are relative to a fight. You established that Malak > Dooku on no basis. Dooku was a Makashi master, has decades of experience more than Malak, was trained by Yoda and Sidious, and has shown us much more. Malak is just an idiot who was barely beaten by Revan. Revans list of accomplishments aren't nearly as good as Mace's as far as combat goes, and, the points I've posted show that Mace is better than Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You've listed feat wars, that's nice.

It's wonderful you tell jim he listed Feat Wars, but so did Sith'ari.

It can already be established that a SW powered Maka>Dooku,

Prove it. Amplify, quantify, and specify the powers of the Star Forge. I'll be waiting.

'Prove it. Amplify, quantify, and specify the powers of the Star Forge. I'll be waiting.'

Malak comments that Revan may have become invincible if he were to have unlocked the full secrets of the SF - now this either speaks incredibly for the added power of the SF, or for Revan, either way it strengthens my argument - unless you want to argue that Malak's opinion means jack which is a pretty blatant way of trying to downplay Revan.

Prove it. Amplify, quantify, and specify the powers of the Star Forge. I'll be waiting.

Its stated in KOTOR that the Star Forge drained the force from an entire race and it's civilization. That is a significant supply of force energy, given that the Rakatan's themselves were powerful force users, and all their technology and structures relied on the force to empower them.

It grants the wielder "powerful" enough to use it superiour abilities in the force, and what more heals them. This is stated by Malak himself on board the Star Forge, (he states that Revan was 'stupid' as he missed the entire purpose of the Star Forge.) Afterwards, the weapon was described as so powerful that it annihialated countless other Sith masters of the time (of whom Obsidian Entertainment have not yet elaborated on) which were under Revan.

Malak had a station with an enormous supply of "force energy" if you will, which he relied on, but nevertheless, Revan defeated him in what was described as an "epic duel."

for the record, didn't we already have this Dooku vs. Malak debate? You're asking me to quantify an unknown. But what is known is that it would be ridiculous to put Dooku above a Malak powered by the star forge, considering Malak was the 2nd best of his time. There is no need to quantify the SF when you're comparing Malak to Dooku, unless you have a case that Dooku>Malak..

Show me where you get the idea that Revan is better than Mace with the force or a lightsaber.
Mace has stopped a landslide. Revan impressed a primitive species with lightning.
Mace has crushed Greivous and crashed a speeder into him using the force. Revan has a bunch of people in love with him that over-hype him.
Mace was known for his great wisdom. Revan would be able to control the Star Forge, which Malak, an idiot, was able to control.
Mace uses Vaapad, one of the deadliest forms. Revan uses "Slash and wait two seconds to attack again" form. Basically, we don't know what form he uses.
Mace seems to be older than Revan, and probably has more experience.
Mace can use shatterpoint to find a weakspot in Revan's defence. Revan can... recruit people?

Show me where you get the idea that Revan is better than Mace with the force or a lightsaber.

I love how you are ignore the fact that Revan did tie the second best duelist of his time while the said duelist was amplified with the power of the star forge.Also I suppose demonstrating the ability of calling down lightning from the sky (which makes ROTS Sidious' lightning look pretty pussy) is not enough. Let's ignore facts if you will.

Mace has stopped a landslide. Revan impressed a primitive species with lightning.

Do I smell anti Revan bias here?

I suppose you forgot the fact that stopping a landslide is purely force telekenisis, which several force users have demonstrated before. Really, this point is moot once Yoda stated that "size matters not."

Mace has crushed Greivous

Alright using force crush on Grievous, a robot that did not EVEN have the force to defend himself.

and crashed a speeder into him using the force.

Firstly, simply stating that Windu can "crash" landspeeders means jack shit considering that Grievous was devoid of the force. How do you know that he could pull the same stunt on Revan, given the said DLOTS exception ability with the force.

Can Mace deflect force lightning? Sure, but just barely. Was Revan's lightning stronger than ROTS Sidious', well you would have to be a fool to argue otherwise. DE Sidious' force storm was much like Revan's (admitedly much more powerful), they did not originate from wielders fingertips.

Revan has a bunch of people in love with him that over-hype him.

Choosing to spit at evidence, and continue with your biased view I see.

Mace was known for his great wisdom. Revan would be able to control the Star Forge, which Malak, an idiot, was able to control.

What the hell is this? Was Vodo's great wisdom enough to save him from being PWNT QED by Exar Kun?

For the record, Revan was probably incredibly wise. He used forthought in his actions, as he did not believe in destroying the republic infrastructure. In fact many would argue that he was wise enough to never be corrupted by the dark side. It was believed that he used the darkside as a tool to protect the galaxy.

Mace uses Vaapad, one of the deadliest forms. Revan uses "Slash and wait two seconds to attack again" form. Basically, we don't know what form he uses.

I suppose the special precognition ability of Revan's (being able to see Windu's attacks before he makes it) would not come to his benefit. I see Revan at least Windu's equivalent here.

Proove first that Windu would be able to block Revan's force storm (which he was just barely able to do to Sidious', as a moment of distraction equalled him out the window), then prove that he would have any signifcant advantage with his "Vaapad" against Revan's superiour precognition.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I love how you are ignore the fact that Revan did tie the second best duelist of his time while the said duelist was amplified with the power of the star forge.Also I suppose demonstrating the ability of calling down lightning from the sky (which makes ROTS Sidious' lightning look pretty pussy) is not enough. Let's ignore facts if you will.

Do I smell anti Revan bias here?

I suppose you forgot the fact that stopping a landslide is purely force telekenisis, which several force users have demonstrated before. Really, this point is moot once Yoda stated that "size matters not."

Alright using force crush on Grievous, a robot that did not EVEN have the force to defend himself.

Firstly, simply stating that Windu can "crash" landspeeders means jack shit considering that Grievous was devoid of the force. How do you know that he could pull the same stunt on Revan, given the said DLOTS exception ability with the force.

Can Mace deflect force lightning? Sure, but just barely. Was Revan's lightning stronger than ROTS Sidious', well you would have to be a fool to argue otherwise. DE Sidious' force storm was much like Revan's (admitedly much more powerful), they did not originate from wielders fingertips.

Choosing to spit at evidence, and continue with your biased view I see.

What the hell is this? Was Vodo's great wisdom enough to save him from being PWNT QED by Exar Kun?

For the record, Revan was probably incredibly wise. He used forthought in his actions, as he did not believe in destroying the republic infrastructure. In fact many would argue that he was wise enough to never be corrupted by the dark side. It was believed that he used the darkside as a tool to protect the galaxy.

I suppose the special precognition ability of Revan's (being able to see Windu's attacks before he makes it) would not come to his benefit. I see Revan at least Windu's equivalent here.

Proove first that Windu would be able to block Revan's force storm (which he was just barely able to do to Sidious', as a moment of distraction equalled him out the window), then prove that he would have any signifcant advantage with his "Vaapad" against Revan's superiour precognition.

Indeed. Think of Revan as a powerful Jedi/Sith with the mind of or almost coming close to, Thrawn.

Kyle or Mace kills Obi-Wan rather easily. Then Kyle and Mace team to kill Revan.

Or it could be the other way around. Revan kills Mace and then Obi and Revan team up and destroy Kyle.

Nope because Oafy Wan is dying first.

That's a ridiculous assumption. Obi-Wan's Soresu is a defensive form, and it prolongs duels. By this time, Revan would be done with someone.

Obiwan WAS described as impenetrable as soon as he switched to Soresu, and lone loss came to Dooku. However, Mace has his shatterpoint ability which may prove too much for Obiwan, and by NJO, Kyle has already surpassed the likes of ROTS Sidious and DOoku in saber combat.

So what? Just because he has shatterpoint doesn't mean Obi-Wan will die in a minute. It won't be as long as the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel but perhaps a quarter of it (2 minutes). By then, Revan should finish Kyle off.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak was the second most powerful jedi in an order of thousands,

Unsupported assumption. We know that some Jedi did cut his jaw off after he became Revan's apprentice. So obviously he was not the second most powerful Jedi in that time.

second most powerful sith in an order of thousands, it has often been argued on this forum that a regular Malak is most likely equal to Dooku, maybe even at best.

Considering what ****heads all other Sith were (yeah what...an army of them wasn't able to plunder the tombs on Korriban, something that Revan did on his own...) I don't see where that is impressive.

But then you have a star forge powered Malak who drained the life of 8 Jedi, and Revan still beat him.

Excuse me: No. First Malak just stored the lifeforce of this already dead Jedi with the help of the Star Forge. Then he just used this lifeforce to "heal" himself. Aside of this it's possible to destroy all the Jedi when Malak has drained the first one. So Revan had to beat down Malak twice. And due to the fact that the game gives you tons of stuff to power yourself up (artifacts, stamina, health packs etc.) even that doesn't mean much.

Now unless you are arguing that Dooku>SF powered+8 Jedi powered Malak, then it's safe to say Revan>Dooku. So tell me again how Mace>Revan?

See above...
And due to this little facts Malak = Dooku and Revan might be slightly above them given that their lightsaber fight was descriped as "epic" (so rather close). Yet that would put Revan in one league with Mace.

The weak link in this fight is Obi-Wan (given that Kyle in the NJO series is the foremost battlemaster of the Jedi Order, meaning the second best duellist with the exception of Luke). Hence Revan and Obi-Wan are going to lose here since both Kyle and Mace are able to keep Revan busy until the other one has finished Obi-Wan. Then Revan gets tooled pretty much...

Nai you are forgetting that Revan beat a STAR FORGE powered Malak, not just Malak. I can't quantify his power with the SF but zephiel provided an idea of just how powerful you have to be to control the SF.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nai you are forgetting that Revan beat a STAR FORGE powered Malak, not just Malak. I can't quantify his power with the SF but zephiel provided an idea of just how powerful you have to be to control the SF.

'Unsupported assumption. We know that some Jedi did cut his jaw off after he became Revan's apprentice. So obviously he was not the second most powerful Jedi in that time.'

It was most likely Revan, they did fight each other once they turned to the dark side.