Robert Spencer: Islam as a peaceful religion is "hogwash".

Originally posted by §P0oONY
I really fail to see the point you are trying to prove lil.... All you're basically saying is... "Paedophilia is wrong, this profit guy did it, yet people still look up to the guy as a profit of God." Your argument, if one can really call it that is pretty nonexistent. My point about the Ancient Greeks is what was acceptable in past times in other cultures (or now if you want to get technical with the countries where it's allowed) is not acceptable in our culture at this present time, it doesn't mean what they did/are doing is wrong. It's not wrong in their culture. I don't condone paedophilia but if other cultures do/did then I'm fine with it. It's not my place to judge.

XYZ; actually male Ancient Greeks could only have sex with other males if they hadn't gone through puberty and even then it technically wasn't sex as there was no penetration, it was more leg ****ing than anything.

My point -

I said I disagree with the ideology of Islam and I have been challanged on this, much more so than anyone else who said they disagree with Christianity.

I have accused of Muhammad doing atrocities, and pointed out that fundamentalists of today following his example perfectly.

I have noted that Muslims who are peaceful and hospitable, who do not show any signs of violence or hate, are ignoring or choosing to ingore the violence in the Qur'an and are not fully aware of what their prophet did.

Instead of Islam being ''religion of peace'' hijacked by hatefull, I claim that Islam is a religion of voilence, hijacked by peace and love.

I challange anyone to prove me otherwise, using Qur'an and Hadiths, as well as pre-islamic history.

One of the things I accused Muhammad of being is pedophile.

I have asked people to disprove any one of the things I have accused Muhammad to have done, and we have begun with pedophilia.

I thought you said you read the whole thread?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
My point -

I said I disagree with the ideology of Islam and I have been challanged on this, much more so than anyone else who said they disagree with Christianity.

I have accused of Muhammad doing atrocities, and pointed out that fundamentalists of today following his example perfectly.

I have noted that Muslims who are peaceful and hospitable, who do not show any signs of violence or hate, are ignoring or choosing to ingore the violence in the Qur'an and are not fully aware of what their prophet did.

I boldly say that Islam is a religion of voilence, hijacked by peace and love.

One of the things I accused Muhammad of being is pedophile.

I have asked people to disprove any one of the things I have accused Muhammad to have done, and we have begun with pedophilia.

I thought you said you read the whole thread?

But really all your doing is saying that anyone who is not a fundamentalist Muslim is not a Muslim so therfore Muslims suck.

Logic doesn't work that way.

You can follow a religion and not have to emulate every stinking word in your holy text. This is what the vast majority of religious people around the world do.

do you think 55 years old man has realy ability to .. even i dont used to say that word ....with teenage girl

if you say yes ....did she get pregenant at that age ...or do you know more than muslims themselve .

Originally posted by Fatima
do you think 55 years old man has realy ability to .. even i dont used to say that word ....with teenage girl

Yes. and if you try to yo write 4uck. KMC blocks if out like this ****. So you don't even really have to say it to type it.

Originally posted by Sam Z
What surrah, please.

Hadiths -

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Prophet saying he has dremth about her -

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Hadiths -

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Prophet saying he has dremth about her -

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

I didn't see any references to sex. And if Aisha was from Allah, isn't Allah the pedophile and not Muhammad?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
My point -

I said I disagree with the ideology of Islam and I have been challanged on this, much more so than anyone else who said they disagree with Christianity.

I have accused of Muhammad doing atrocities, and pointed out that fundamentalists of today following his example perfectly.

I have noted that Muslims who are peaceful and hospitable, who do not show any signs of violence or hate, are ignoring or choosing to ingore the violence in the Qur'an and are not fully aware of what their prophet did.

Instead of Islam being ''religion of peace'' hijacked by hatefull, I claim that Islam is a religion of voilence, hijacked by peace and love.

I challange anyone to prove me otherwise, using Qur'an and Hadiths, as well as pre-islamic history.

One of the things I accused Muhammad of being is pedophile.

I have asked people to disprove any one of the things I have accused Muhammad to have done, and we have begun with pedophilia.

I thought you said you read the whole thread?

What exactly are you trying to achieve in this conversation? Are you trying to change a faith? Trying to stop people following the Qur'an? Or simply trying to make people follow it word for word?

Originally posted by Fatima
do you think 55 years old man has realy ability to .. even i dont used to say that word ....with teenage girl

if you say yes ....did she get pregenant at that age ...or do you know more than muslims themselve .

She stayed with him for 9 years no? Until his death - she was 18 then.

Prophet died when he was 63 years of age, right? If she stayed with him 9 years, till she was 18, then she was 9 while he was 54.

Im just reading what ti says in the Hadith.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
She stayed with him for 9 years no? Until his death - she was 18 then.

Prophet died when he was 63 years of age, right? If she stayed with him 9 years, till she was 18, then she was 9 while he was 54.

Im just reading what ti says in the Hadith.

Originally posted by Alliance
Yes. and if you try to yo write 4uck. KMC blocks if out like this ****. So you don't even really have to say it to type it.

because i dont like anybody repeat and say he has ...it show that they attempt to charge prophet of something that he is really didnt do it for that reason .. ..

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Hadiths -

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Prophet saying he has dremth about her -

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Exactly what Alliance said. Nothing about sex. All this only proves that he was married to her and that was never a secret. And I already explained before what this marriage was and what polygamy was at that time. Whant people to disprove something, give proofs first.

Originally posted by §P0oONY
So... Are you saying that Muslims should either be really violent and disruptive or shouldn't be Muslim? Are you saying the only Muslims that should call themselves Muslim are those who are true fundamentalists who's main purpose in life is to become a martyr? You disagree with the ideologies of the faith and yet you question as to why there are many Muslims not sticking to them.

What exactly are you trying to achieve in this conversation? Are you trying to change a faith? Trying to stop people following the Qur'an? Or simply trying to make people follow it word for word?

What am I achieving with this conversation?

I am demonstrating my claims - I claimed that Islam is not a religion of peace - contradictory to someone saying it was.

People challenged me, and I have been, for the past however long, trying to justify my points of view.

I am pointing out the the error in saying Islam is a religion of peace, because the evidence point to different thing -

This is a religious discussion - and that is what we're doing - discussing religion. In this instance Islam.

But for whatever reason, discussing Christianty is ok - but critisisng Islam is not.

If people wonder why some Muslims do things which are seen as horrid, I can point out the very thing in the Qur'an and the Hadith, which justifyes and sometimes encourages their action.

I am pointing out the proof of why people like Umm Nidal are proud that their son has blown himself to pieces for the honour of killing few Jews.

I a pointing out, that Islam is a political, social, military and governmental system desguised as a religion.

A religion of Allah, the ways of praying, the customs, the Hajj, the prayers - all existed before Muhammad. People must unerstand that.
Parts of Qur'an are taken from Pagan Arabian Pre-Islamic religion and put in there - thus, if you take away Muhammad, you get a religion no different to Judaism or Christianity.

...is my point.

Originally posted by Alliance
I didn't see any references to sex. And if Aisha was from Allah, isn't Allah the pedophile and not Muhammad?

''consumed his marriage'' refers to having sex. According to Hadith - they married when she was 6 and Prophet consumed the marriage when she was 9.

Lemme look for another Hadith which says so....

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
If people wonder why some Muslims do things which are seen as horrid, I can point out the very thing in the Qur'an and the Hadith, which justifyes and sometimes encourages their action.

Originally posted by Fatima
because i dont like anybody repeat and say he has ...it show that they attempt to charge prophet of something that he is really didnt do it for that reason .. ..

Really, most people don't have alterior motives. We're searching for truth in a plural society.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
What am I achieving with this conversation?

I am demonstrating my claims - I claimed that Islam is not a religion of peace - contradictory to someone saying it was.

People challenged me, and I have been, for the past however long, trying to justify my points of view.

I am pointing out the the error in saying Islam is a religion of peace, because the evidence point to different thing -

This is a religious discussion - and that is what we're doing - discussing religion. In this instance Islam.

But for whatever reason, discussing Christianty is ok - but critisisng Islam is not.

If people wonder why some Muslims do things which are seen as horrid, I can point out the very thing in the Qur'an and the Hadith, which justifyes and sometimes encourages their action.

I am pointing out the proof of why people like Umm Nidal are proud that their son has blown himself to pieces for the honour of killing few Jews.

I a pointing out, that Islam is a political, social, military and governmental system desguised as a religion.

A religion of Allah, the ways of praying, the customs, the Hajj, the prayers - all existed before Muhammad. People must unerstand that.
Parts of Qur'an are taken from Pagan Arabian Pre-Islamic religion and put in there - thus, if you take away Muhammad, you get a religion no different to Judaism or Christianity.

...is my point.

Okie Dokie, that explanation works for me.

You're correct that Islam fundamentals simply stop it being a peaceful faith. This does not stop your average Muslim being fine and dandy like sour candy but there will always be those fundamentalists that just take shit too far... It's like that with most religions though, including Christianity.

Originally posted by Alliance
But really all your doing is saying that anyone who is not a fundamentalist Muslim is not a Muslim so therfore Muslims suck.

Logic doesn't work that way.

You can follow a religion and not have to emulate every stinking word in your holy text. This is what the vast majority of religious people around the world do.

Exactly.

Not all Christians take the Bible word for word, a lot of them don't even rely on the Bible for much of thier life.

Same goes for Muslims...not all Muslims take the Quran to absolute heart.

Many Christians and Muslims are logical people who REALIZE that thier family, freinds, and loving relationships are way more important than thier scriptures....

People > Book

Originally posted by §P0oONY
Okie Dokie, that explanation works for me.

You're correct that Islam fundamentals simply stop it being a peaceful faith. This does not stop your average Muslim being fine and dandy like sour candy but there will always be those fundamentalists that just take shit too far... It's like that with most religions though, including Christianity.

👆

I think this just proves that average Muslims, or a majority are just plain good people - and NOTHING will make them be horrible, not even the religious text which says so.

I like that it just means as humans, we are striving to be good.

(Im a bit of a Humanist - i have faith in us as spicies...still)

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Exactly.

Not all Christians take the Bible word for word, a lot of them don't even rely on the Bible for much of thier life.

Same goes for Muslims...not all Muslims take the Quran to absolute heart.

Many Christians and Muslims are logical people who REALIZE that thier family, freinds, and loving relationships are way more important than thier scriptures....

People > Book

👆 People > Religious Book(s)

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
👆

I think this just proves that average Muslims, or a majority are just plain good people - and NOTHING will make them be horrible, not even the religious text which says so.

I like that it just means as humans, we are striving to be good.

(Im a bit of a Humanist - i have faith in us as spicies...still)

👆 People > Religious Book(s)

I am glad we agree on that 😄

Too bad some people still think a Religious Book is worth more than human lives and human happiness.

And even more bad that some people beleive a hypothetical afterlife is worth more than actual life. 🙁

Originally posted by Alliance
But really all your doing is saying that anyone who is not a fundamentalist Muslim is not a Muslim so therfore Muslims suck.

Logic doesn't work that way.

You can follow a religion and not have to emulate every stinking word in your holy text. This is what the vast majority of religious people around the world do.

Not really - or at least thats not what I am hoping to come across as -

Islam, ie Submission is basically submission to Muhammad and a blind following of Allah.
I believe, much like a lot of Christian branches reformed, Islam can reform too - but through understanding of what Muhammad had in mind.

People can still be Muslim - perhaps the way their great grandfathers were - but NOT take Qur'an and Hadith literaly, and NOT follwo Muhammad's example.

Everything else will fall into place - I believe one can believe in Allah, call oneself Muslims, do the prayers, Hajj and the rest and not follow Muhammad.