Robert Spencer: Islam as a peaceful religion is "hogwash".

Originally posted by Fatima
in mean in my religion , for example if somebody rob astore or moeny his hand will slit , ,i visit saudi arabia few months ago , and i saw people went to mosqe to pray and leave there stores open .in another country like england there are robers who went to jail ,and after they finish they come back again . there is no straight rule to stop it .

Originally posted by lord xyz
Maybe because England is a richer country and people have more time to do what they want. Whereas in Saudi Arabia, it's do as they say, or die.

Saudi Arabia is a rich country.... 😐

Originally posted by §P0oONY
Saudi Arabia is a rich country.... 😐

If you count just how much money the lite had, yes, but Xyz meant per capita.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
And this is where you are wrong.

EVERYONE has the right to criticise anything they like.
Your religion is an ideology, and just as you have the right, to walk all over Buddhism, Christianity or Hinduism, I (and few others on this board) have the same right about Islam, without us being called 'phobic' or hate manglers.

You HAVE the right to criticise, but there is a line between criticism and spewing blatant hatred.

When WE criticise YOUR interpretation, you just shot personal insults. So really, I think you are more at fault here.

Originally posted by Alliance
You HAVE the right to criticise, but there is a line between criticism and spewing blatant hatred.

When WE criticise YOUR interpretation, you just shot personal insults. So really, I think you are more at fault here.

You have never critisised my interpretation - EVER. Because you do not have sufficient knowledge to do so, and thus you refer to me as ''hating''.

I am still waiting for you to disprove my claims, that Muhammad was a paedophile, murderer and torturer.
I am also waiting for you to disprove that Muslims refer to him as al-insan al-kamil which means a perfect man, and whos actions are to be followed.

I am waiting.

I'm waiting for you to prove that it matters.

I don't know if Muhammad is referred to as al-insan al-kamil. Is that a Qu'ran statement or is that a popular statement?

Originally posted by Alliance
You don't respond to arguments, you just use personal attacks.

You can't/haven't responded to serious attacks on your sources.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments about historical context.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments about the seperation between Muhammad and Islam.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments that the literalist interpretation of a faith is the issue, not the faith itself.

You can't/haven't responded to arguemtns that Islam is in many way no different from any other relgion in most aspects.

You can't/haven't responded to arguments that every religon goes through periods of relative extremeism.

Originally posted by RocasAtoll
If you count just how much money the lite had, yes, but Xyz meant per capita.

They're not even poor per capita.

Originally posted by Alliance
I'm waiting for you to prove that it matters.

I don't know if Muhammad is referred to as al-insan al-kamil. Is that a Qu'ran statement or is that a popular statement?

Al-insan al-kamil i what Muhammad declared himself to be. In the Qur'an and the Hadith.

To reject him as anything less than perfect is to reject that he was a messenger of Allah, which is ultimately blashpemy. Its like saying Jesus was not a son of God.

The first thing you say when you become a Muslims is ''There is no other god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger''.

To admit that Muhammad made mistakes, is to reject this sentance, hence you become Kafir, and hence you are a hypocrite and thus to be killed.

Anyway, lets change all that you quoted about me above, and contrencate on the issue.

I challenge you to disprove to me that :

- that Muhammad was a paedophile, murderer and torturer.

- that Muslims refer to him as al-insan al-kamil which means a perfect man, and whos actions are to be followed. (although we covered this already above)

- that he raped women captured in war, and allowed his followers to do so.

- that he preached terror as a way of defeting his enemies.

- that he advocated murder of non-muslims

- that he advocated non-muslims to be humiliated and subdued

- that Allah advocated that friendship with non-muslims is forbidden.

- That terrorists today mirror his behaviour.

This is of course to everyone, not just Alliance, who disagree.

Feel free to quote Qur'an, Hadiths, as well as pre-silamic Arabain history as well as life of Muhammad.

No involvment of Christianity or any other religion, please.

I have links to electronic Qur'an and Hadiths, if anyone needs them.

Ok, lets begin, I have made my accusations.

we never said about mohammed the perfect man ...thats nuts

our religion and our prophets tought us that the perfection for god .

give me evidence in hadith or Quran ..... if you can

Here is the Qur'an quote, advocating following Muhammad's example if one wishes to enter Heaven -

From Surah Al Ahzab in the Qur'an -

" Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. " Quran 33:21

Muhammad thus claimed to be the 'perfect man'.

He also based his argument in the hadith saying: 'I was a prophet when Adam was between water and clay', Muhammad identified himself in the Hadith to be al aql al awaal.

al-aql-al-awaal = first intelect.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Here is the Qur'an quote, advocating following Muhammad's example if one wishes to enter Heaven -

From Surah Al Ahzab in the Qur'an -

[b]" Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. " Quran 33:21

Muhammad thus claimed to be the 'perfect man'.

He also based his argument in the hadith saying: 'I was a prophet when Adam was between water and clay', Muhammad identified himself in the Hadith to be al aql al awaal.

al-aql-al-awaal = first intelect. [/B]

The number surah of al ahzab you talk about is wrong , maybe thats explain the mix info you have.

the language that prophet use in old time is differnt , i m sure he meant something else , even i dont understant some of his hadith , because normal words has another meaning .

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Al-insan al-kamil i what Muhammad declared himself to be. In the Qur'an and the Hadith.

To reject him as anything less than perfect is to reject that he was a messenger of Allah, which is ultimately blashpemy. Its like saying Jesus was not a son of God.

The first thing you say when you become a Muslims is ''There is no other god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger''.

To admit that Muhammad made mistakes, is to reject this sentance, hence you become Kafir, and hence you are a hypocrite and thus to be killed.

Anyway, lets change all that you quoted about me above, and contrencate on the issue.

I challenge you to disprove to me that :

- that Muhammad was a paedophile, murderer and torturer.

- that Muslims refer to him as al-insan al-kamil which means a perfect man, and whos actions are to be followed. (although we covered this already above)

- that he raped women captured in war, and allowed his followers to do so.

- that he preached terror as a way of defeting his enemies.

- that he advocated murder of non-muslims

- that he advocated non-muslims to be humiliated and subdued

- that Allah advocated that friendship with non-muslims is forbidden.

- That terrorists today mirror his behaviour.

This is of course to everyone, not just Alliance, who disagree.

Feel free to quote Qur'an, Hadiths, as well as pre-silamic Arabain history as well as life of Muhammad.

No involvment of Christianity or any other religion, please.

I have links to electronic Qur'an and Hadiths, if anyone needs them.

Ok, lets begin, I have made my accusations.

Say, have you replied to Alliances list yet?

Originally posted by lord xyz
Unfortunately, it is impossible to disprove this because there isno way of knowing. However the law says "Innocent until proven guilty" so you must first provide evidence of these claims, before we can disprove them.

Say, have you replied to Alliances list yet?

What are you talking about? Seriously?

My claims are from the Qur'an and Hadith!
I have PROVEN them over and over again, using the very verses of the Qur'an and the Hadith!
The verses ARE the proof!

I have posted the verses at LEAST 8 times in the numerous threads - please pay attention.
I am here to REBUTE Qur'an, Hadiths and various historical accounts, not to guess based on what I think MIGHT have happened.

Since I am here under the assumption that Muhammad MIHGT be the messenger of Allah, I want proof which will without shadow of a doubt disprove his pedophilia, murder and torture as well as rape - ALL DOCUMENTED IN THE HADITHS.

This is a religious discussion based on religious books and pre-islamic historiy, ALSO documanted in the Religious Books of Islam, by the Islamic Scholers and otherwise.

This isn't a dispute on the fairy tale of religion. I am not trying to prove religion is horseshit. I am trying to debate religion based on the religious texts, i.e Critical Examination of Islam.

It is a debate which challanges the Prophet and his teachings of what is today known as ''One True Religion''.

Seriously, are you just trolling for the sake of it or are you just generally clueless?

Read my reply again. My reply IS the response to Alliances list.

Originally posted by Fatima
The number surah of al ahzab you talk about is wrong , maybe thats explain the mix info you have.

the language that prophet use in old time is differnt , i m sure he meant something else , even i dont understant some of his hadith , because normal words has another meaning .

Nope, in the Qur'an I have here, it is the correct verse. I shall check the electronic one again though.

What do you believe Muhammad meant when he identified himself as a prophet before Adam?
He clearly identified himself as al-aql-al-awwal.

I want to know your personal thoughts on this.

because god will make him the only prophet who has to talk with it, in order to to ask forgivness for belivers in the last day .

and about al-aql-al-awwal , becuase god gave him the wisedome to make and teach people the good manner , and make rule for islamic nation to follow him ,because he was the last prophet and Quran came in his time .

Thank you Fatima.
I like talking to you, even though we disagree.

Few questions for you, however -

1) do you believe it was right for prophet to marry Aisha at her age?

2) The Qur'an (and the Hadith) tell us that Prophet's way is the manner in which we should all behave. Do you agree with this?

3) If yes, do you believe it is ok for other men to marry girls like Aisha?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Thank you Fatima.
I like talking to you, even though we disagree.

Few questions for you, however -

1) do you believe it was right for prophet to marry Aisha at her age?

2) The Qur'an (and the Hadith) tell us that Prophet's way is the manner in which we should all behave. Do you agree with this?

3) If yes, do you believe it is ok for other men to marry girls like Aisha?

Originally posted by lord xyz
In Oman you can marry and have sex when you're 9. And people do start puberty at round about that age.

Yes indeed.

However, we should note that Oman is a Muslim country. It would be safe to assume they are following the Sunnah and Sharia Law is in place.

However there is, a slight problem with this -

In the Hadith, and later a translation, it is established that she has not yet reached age of puberty -

Such as here

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.

(The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

There is further a hadith which explains this more. I don't know it by heart, but I shall look up.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Thank you Fatima.
I like talking to you, even though we disagree.

Few questions for you, however -

1) do you believe it was right for prophet to marry Aisha at her age?

2) The Qur'an (and the Hadith) tell us that Prophet's way is the manner in which we should all behave. Do you agree with this?

3) If yes, do you believe it is ok for other men to marry girls like Aisha?

1- first , there is man befor prophet betroth Aisha , women call (khawla) advice prophet to marry her ,but prophet was confuse becuas her father was his best friend
about her age , Aisha was adult becuse girl grow fast in hot area , more than the cold area , no body know surely her age exacly but in hadith they say that she was puberty .

I think Aisha s father wanted to assertion the affinity realtionship between him and prophet to be more conected , i dont think he wanted her for enjoyment because he was 55 years old .

2-of course

3-i think people undestand the reason why prophet marry Aisha , they will not putting themselve in his standing and do like him .
tricky question 😄

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Al-insan al-kamil i what Muhammad declared himself to be. In the Qur'an and the Hadith.

To reject him as anything less than perfect is to reject that he was a messenger of Allah, which is ultimately blashpemy. Its like saying Jesus was not a son of God.

The first thing you say when you become a Muslims is ''There is no other god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger''.

To admit that Muhammad made mistakes, is to reject this sentance, hence you become Kafir, and hence you are a hypocrite and thus to be killed.

Anyway, lets change all that you quoted about me above, and contrencate on the issue.

I challenge you to disprove to me that :

- that Muhammad was a paedophile, murderer and torturer.

- that Muslims refer to him as al-insan al-kamil which means a perfect man, and whos actions are to be followed. (although we covered this already above)

- that he raped women captured in war, and allowed his followers to do so.

- that he preached terror as a way of defeting his enemies.

- that he advocated murder of non-muslims

- that he advocated non-muslims to be humiliated and subdued

- that Allah advocated that friendship with non-muslims is forbidden.

- That terrorists today mirror his behaviour.

This is of course to everyone, not just Alliance, who disagree.

Feel free to quote Qur'an, Hadiths, as well as pre-silamic Arabain history as well as life of Muhammad.

No involvment of Christianity or any other religion, please.

I have links to electronic Qur'an and Hadiths, if anyone needs them.

Ok, lets begin, I have made my accusations.

You baffle me.

you really have no idea what you are talking about do you?

🤨