Creation vs Evolution

ok ushomefree, since you seem to have all the answers, riddle me this. if god is transcendant, omniscient, and omnipotent, then wouldnt it be safe to say he knows the future, to the end of time? if so, explain to me, how anyone has any chance at "redeeeming" himself if everything he will ever do is already known. from the moment u are born, you are assigned a spot in heaven or hell. either accept this in your belief, or deny it and become a pawn. either way agree with me or disprove it. your move genius boy

With slight alterations, this is still pertinent:

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Eck. Where to begin? Except that I'm not going to begin. Valid points and questions were raised, you told us to "hold on a while" then came back with even more obscure questions that sound more like thesis questions for a college biology course, and in no way resemble an argument for creationism.

What does your own theory have to say about these questions? Oh, wait, there's isn't one, unless "God must've done it" counts as a scientific theory (it doesn't, fyi). How does raising ever more detailed questions constitute an argument for God? Without researching each of these specifically, these questions all seem to center around the original macroevolution that was roundly debunked a couple pages ago with mountains of evidence. Did you acknowledge this, or attempt to engage the material? Hell no. You led us to believe you were going to respond to it, then avoided it entirely and tried to change what the discussion was about to better suit your needs.

Lulz at attempting to claim the moral high ground, but if you treat us like fools with your dodging, condescension, and endless stream of pointless questions, then you won't receive kind treatment from those of us who debate rationally rather than avoiding what we can't answer and only saying we we want to be heard.

Also, "The Bible tells us..." doesn't constitute a logical argument. It's an appeal to authority, and one that (in this case) lacks empirical evidence. So the rant about emotions where you tell us that we're wrong based on your supposedly a priori knowledge of God's existence is both laughably illogical and insulting.

...

My opinion to the forum: we've been great about answering his questions for months/years now. It's time he returned the favor. Until you see a concerted effort to engage, understand, or respond to the other side of the debate, I'd suggest that no one answer his sophomoric attempts to filter the discussion only where he wants it go via these questions.

or this:

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Oh this is just getting ridiculously stupid, as if it wasn't stupid enough already. The equivalent of spam, that did nothing to dismiss anything Digi, inimalist or Bardock posted.

We get it. Scientists must "document" evolution step by step, base pair by base pair, amino acid by amino acid, of a species into another species at I don't know how high a level in the Linnaean taxonomy to be deemed a different "kind" - a wholly unscientific term with no real criterion - for you to accept evolution. Because scientists haven't been able to document something that takes thousands if not millions of years, base pair by base pair, despite that humans haven't been around that long, you'll go on about how evolution is "just a theory." Of course not realizing that in science "theory" isn't a synonym for "conjecture." Therefore we get a thread seemingly about robots for you to try and prove ID by trying to discredit evolution as "just a theory" with links to the Discovery Institute - which has never really discovered anything (except how to steal videos from Harvard/XVIVO via the internet) and is thus a gross misnomer - despite that this doesn't in any way prove ID.

We get it. No one cares. Stop posting. Believe in your god all you want, just keep him out of science classes.

And don't subvert actual scientific terms into your bullshit.

...or many of the more recent responses that have disproven one aspect or another of ushome's argument (all avoided in some fashion or another).

Though he changed the questions to ones that he has asked in the past. I remember answering them myself, though I forget what I wrote. He ignored intelligent responses to it the first time, so see no reason why we should humor him this time. It would just be a waste of breath in a debate where our opponent gives no credence to opposing arguments.

Pfft, we all evaluation[izes] in one way or another..........me speculates.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Many of you, however, think my post is comical, perhaps, ridiculous

You forgot the mystery of how unjello produces jello.

Originally posted by chickenlover98
ok ushomefree, since you seem to have all the answers, riddle me this. if god is transcendant, omniscient, and omnipotent, then wouldnt it be safe to say he knows the future, to the end of time? if so, explain to me, how anyone has any chance at "redeeeming" himself if everything he will ever do is already known. from the moment u are born, you are assigned a spot in heaven or hell. either accept this in your belief, or deny it and become a pawn. either way agree with me or disprove it. your move genius boy

First and foremost, God is "outside" the confines of length, width, space, and time! God resides in a dimension (or dimensions) far more superior to our own; hence, if the skeptic will allow, God is "eternal," is it "outside" of time--in our sense! In any case....

God is all knowing! God knows you better than you know yourself. Think of it this way: God is able to make 100% accurate "predictions" about how you may act and/or behave in any particular situation. Hence, God knows the future, in you, and human history! In the end, God knows your path (and all the above). This is not rocket science, just a little common sense (in acknowledging a so-called "Higher-power."

If need be, I may be able to explain more. But what you do think chickenlover98?

So there is no free will and JohnCalvin was right all along!

Originally posted by ushomefree
First and foremost, God is "outside" the confines of length, width, space, and time! God resides in a dimension (or dimensions) far more superior to our own; hence, if the skeptic will allow, God is "eternal," is it "outside" of time--in our sense! In any case....

God is all knowing! God knows you better than you know yourself. Think of it this way: God is able to make 100% accurate "predictions" about how you may act and/or behave in any particular situation. Hence, God knows the future, in you, and human history! In the end, God knows your path (and all the above). This is not rocket science, just a little common sense (in acknowledging a so-called "Higher-power."

If need be, I may be able to explain more. But what you do think chickenlover98?

There is only two options either God knows all and there is no free will or God doesn't and there is.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Oh... like you are a subject matter expert Shakyamunison?! The irony! Absolutely amazing!!

When I stated, that time was needed to reference information, I made the claim on purpose; it was not—as some proclaimed—to "dodge" the question/issue! Believe it not, but not all people think like you, and you know who you are. Some people, actually want to present views in an intelligent fashion, however wrong they may be. This, at minimum, demonstrates care and concern on one's part—not ranting and raving at the mouth (full of raging conquest)!

C'mon guys... chill the freak out. Especially [size=1]you Shakyamunison! Disagree all you like, but exercise discipline. You are the oldest member of the forum and yet, you act like an infant.

Since so many of you feel the need to trampled on my silence, I will make the following statement: genetic mutations come in various forms. Volumes of ink, I'm sure, have been put in print about genetic mutations. This is imperative, however, nothing has been published unearthing the processes of Natural Selection in action. Do not be a schmuck! The article thrown in my face delt with variation in skin "pigmentation." And you honestly think this verifies Natural Selection—genetic mutation at work... in Darwinian fashion?! My gosh... how much faith you put in little things and not a transcendent Creator—a God!

[Note: no one denies that species have undergone change; but to think that "skin pigmentation" verifies "macro" change, is an utter joke! The Washington Post printed the add... go figure?!!]

As I have previously stated—and I believe this fully—man "instinctively" has knowledge of God; that is not taught! In other words, there is no such thing as a "true" Atheist," just those who deny His existence; the reasons are many, whether it be shame or—9 times out of 10—pride... all man is aware of God!!

Why??!

Because we are made in the image of God; human beings—creatures having soul—are not deer and/or earthworms. Deer and earthworms have no concept of God and evolution will not change that. Humans do! Again, human beings are made in the image of God—body, mind, and soul. Moreover, to further aid my message, humans beings—yes... you too Shakyamunison (ha ha ha)—believe in "life after death!" Deny such, and you are only fooling yourself!! It is the truth; I am not spotting at the mouth. If Darwinian evolution is true, it is the cruelest thing ever devised. No hope... only time itself. Deer and earthworms do not know the difference, but man does. Do not let a bias lab coats—who claim to know it all!—deny you that. Learn, though Christ Jesus, who God (in the flesh), and what the future holds.

Many of you, however, think my post is comical, perhaps, ridiculous... but here is the alternative; and it don't look so good... scientifically and spiritually:

1) Nothing produces everything,

2) Non-life produces life,

3) Randomness produces fine-tuning,

4) Chaos produces information,

5) Unconsciousness produces consciousness, and

6) Non-reason produces reason.

[Note: If you prescribe to the "origins of life" through the causes 1 through 6, there is no hope for you; nothing will change your mind. You are deceived, and you take comfort in it. I guess you'd believe that circles are square?!] Stop denying your Creator and face the music![/size]

I cannot help but think, that many of you turn away from God because of your sinful nature!! This is nothing to be hide from; Almighty God—since the beginning of creation—knew man would take advantage of his free-will (and abuse it)! Hence the reason, Jesus the Christ, the first born above ALL creation to redeem man kind!!

[NOTE: SALVATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR WORKS—WHETHER "GOOD" OR "BAD!" I WILL STATE, AGAIN... SALVATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR WORKS!! FORGET ABOUT WORKS, GOD KNOWS YOUR NATURE AND MADE PREPARATIONS TO "REDEEM" YOU!! ME, YOU, AND THE VIRGIN MARY "HERSELF," ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!! READ "SCRIPTURE," YOU ARE NOT THE EXCEPTION. YOU ARE NOT PERFECT!!]

Anyway sheesh... I gotta take a poop (ha ha ha)! Hey (!)... no hard feelings, I am just trying to communicate with you. There is no need, whatsoever, to be disrespectful! Really!! I simply want to—whether you believe or not—help.

But, lay it on me. 🙂

Da Pittman-

Free-will does exist; the difference is this: God knows, but God does not "force!" You can, right now--not that you would--rob a gas station. That is your choice, but God knew it ahead of time. Jesus Christ is not plan B.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Da Pittman-

Free-will does exist; the difference is this: God knows, but God does not "force!" You can, right now--not that you would--rob a gas station. That is your choice, but God knew it ahead of time. Jesus Christ is not plan B.

It is not "FORCED."

Da Pittman, I hope this helps:

If “free will” can mean that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then, yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s sin status is directly associated with choices made by Adam and Eve. All accounts of the fall of mankind indicate it was as the result of a wrong choice. From that point on, individuals have had the opportunity to choose to follow God or to experience the consequences for not making that choice.

Even in light of God’s choosing Abraham and his descendants, God held individuals accountable for their choices. In the Old Testament, individuals outside of the chosen nation (Israel) were able to choose to believe and follow God (examples: Gentiles that left with the Israelites at the Exodus, Ruth, and Rahab). Therefore, He who chooses (elects) also allows individuals to choose. The Book of Romans is famous for explaining salvation and the sovereignty of God. It uses words like chose, predestined, elect, etc., yet it also holds people accountable for not choosing.

In the section where Romans discusses the sinful depravity of humans, God bluntly states that those outside of salvation are without excuse--“no defense.” This is specifically in light of the rejection of general revelation, showing His existence through His creation (Romans 1:20-21).

In other passages we learn that (1) individuals are expected to choose to believe (John 3:16; Romans 10:11; etc). (2) Individuals have a choice to be foolish or wise (Matthew 7:26). (3) The Scriptures are given to provide instruction for salvation – obviously to be chosen or rejected (2 Timothy 3:15; John 20:30-31). (4) Jesus established the choosing of obedience as a sign of our love for Him (John 14:21).

It is God’s will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), therefore, it must be someone else’s choice that separates individuals from God. God says we will reap what we sow – we can choose to reap differently (Galatians 6:7-8).

The multitudes of directives given by God assume that the hearers can make a choice to obey or disobey. It seems logical that God could only hold us accountable if we indeed have free will to choose. Therefore, a just God would not declare expectations on those who are not free to choose. It would be unjust for God to then punish those who had no choice in their actions. God, in His absolute sovereignty, created the human race with ability to make genuine and free choices.

Gotta go to bed folks! Take care.

Do human beings truly have a free will?

Then your fairy tale god is not infallible.

Omniscience, foresight and infallibility preclude free will.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Da Pittman, I hope this helps:

If “free will” can mean that God gives humans the opportunity to make choices that genuinely affect their destiny, then, yes, human beings do have a free will. The world’s sin status is directly associated with choices made by Adam and Eve. All accounts of the fall of mankind indicate it was as the result of a wrong choice. From that point on, individuals have had the opportunity to choose to follow God or to experience the consequences for not making that choice.

Even in light of God’s choosing Abraham and his descendants, God held individuals accountable for their choices. In the Old Testament, individuals outside of the chosen nation (Israel) were able to choose to believe and follow God (examples: Gentiles that left with the Israelites at the Exodus, Ruth, and Rahab). Therefore, He who chooses (elects) also allows individuals to choose. The Book of Romans is famous for explaining salvation and the sovereignty of God. It uses words like chose, predestined, elect, etc., yet it also holds people accountable for not choosing.

In the section where Romans discusses the sinful depravity of humans, God bluntly states that those outside of salvation are without excuse--“no defense.” This is specifically in light of the rejection of general revelation, showing His existence through His creation (Romans 1:20-21).

In other passages we learn that (1) individuals are expected to choose to believe (John 3:16; Romans 10:11; etc). (2) Individuals have a choice to be foolish or wise (Matthew 7:26). (3) The Scriptures are given to provide instruction for salvation – obviously to be chosen or rejected (2 Timothy 3:15; John 20:30-31). (4) Jesus established the choosing of obedience as a sign of our love for Him (John 14:21).

It is God’s will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), therefore, it must be someone else’s choice that separates individuals from God. God says we will reap what we sow – we can choose to reap differently (Galatians 6:7-8).

The multitudes of directives given by God assume that the hearers can make a choice to obey or disobey. It seems logical that God could only hold us accountable if we indeed have free will to choose. Therefore, a just God would not declare expectations on those who are not free to choose. It would be unjust for God to then punish those who had no choice in their actions. God, in His absolute sovereignty, created the human race with ability to make genuine and free choices.

Gotta go to bed folks! Take care.

Do human beings truly have a free will?

If I send you out to do something that I already know that you will fail and expect you to succeed knowing full well that you will not then punish you for your failure how is this free will?

You can keep posting scripture but that will not prove anything because they logic that they use is flawed. If God knows everything then man CAN NOT HAVE FREE WILL because he already knows what you will do. You future is predefined and determined even before you were born, even before he created Adam he would already have known what my grandkids will do. How is it free will? Don’t give this BS about it is not “forced”, it wouldn’t make a difference if it was or not and that has nothing to do with it. You want to post scripture that says he is giving us choices, as with picking the number you have billions of choices but he would already know you choice before you did. So again how is that a choice?

In other passages we learn that (1) individuals are expected to choose to believe (John 3:16; Romans 10:11; etc).
He already knows what you will choose if he is all knowing.

(2) Individuals have a choice to be foolish or wise (Matthew 7:26).
He already knows what you will choose if he is all knowing.

(3) The Scriptures are given to provide instruction for salvation – obviously to be chosen or rejected (2 Timothy 3:15; John 20:30-31).
He already knows what you will choose if he is all knowing.

(4) Jesus established the choosing of obedience as a sign of our love for Him (John 14:21).
He already knows what you will choose if he is all knowing.

It is God’s will that none should perish (2 Peter 3:9), therefore, it must be someone else’s choice that separates individuals from God. God says we will reap what we sow – we can choose to reap differently (Galatians 6:7-8).
He already knows what you will choose if he is all knowing.

All pertinent and valid points (not ushome, of course). However I think the central issue is still this:

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, "The Bible tells us..." doesn't constitute a logical argument. It's an appeal to authority, and one that (in this case) lacks empirical evidence.

That in and of itself negates the "Why do we have free will? Because the Bible says so." arguments....though your logical paradox problems are still valid even if we overlook this (which ushome is, of course).

Originally posted by ushomefree
First and foremost, God is "outside" the confines of length, width, space, and time! God resides in a dimension (or dimensions) far more superior to our own; hence, if the skeptic will allow, God is "eternal," is it "outside" of time--in our sense! In any case....

God is all knowing! God knows you better than you know yourself. Think of it this way: God is able to make 100% accurate "predictions" about how you may act and/or behave in any particular situation. Hence, God knows the future, in you, and human history! In the end, God knows your path (and all the above). This is not rocket science, just a little common sense (in acknowledging a so-called "Higher-power."

If need be, I may be able to explain more. But what you do think chickenlover98?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Then your fairy tale god is not infallible.

Omniscience, foresight and infallibility preclude free will.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Oh... like you are a subject matter expert Shakyamunison?! The irony! Absolutely amazing!!

When I stated, that time was needed to reference information, I made the claim on purpose; it was not—as some proclaimed—to "dodge" the question/issue! Believe it not, but not all people think like you, and you know who you are. Some people, actually want to present views in an intelligent fashion, however wrong they may be. This, at minimum, demonstrates care and concern on one's part—not ranting and raving at the mouth (full of raging conquest)!

IF you had been honest and told people up front that you needed to study the topic more, then people would not have assumed the worst. However, you have established a pattern of attacking and then retreating, only to return with attacking again. The truth is your “I’m all innocent” play is bullshit.

Originally posted by ushomefree
C'mon guys... chill the freak out. Especially you Shakyamunison! Disagree all you like, but exercise discipline. You are the oldest member of the forum and yet, you act like an infant.

I use humor to get my points across. If what you say was true, no one would like me, and we both know that is not the case. I suggest you try to have a little more fun, and not take things so seriously.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Since so many of you feel the need to trampled on my silence, I will make the following statement: genetic mutations come in various forms. Volumes of ink, I'm sure, have been put in print about genetic mutations. This is imperative, however, nothing has been published unearthing the processes of Natural Selection in action. Do not be a schmuck! The article thrown in my face delt with variation in skin "pigmentation." And you honestly think this verifies Natural Selection—genetic mutation at work... in Darwinian fashion?! My gosh... how much faith you put in little things and not a transcendent Creator—a God!

I put a lot of faith in little things that are real and can be studied, while you put faith in big things, that you cannot prove even exists in the first place. Please remember that I am not an atheist, and I believe in faith as a powerful force in life. So, what does that tell you? It tells you that we are the same.

Originally posted by ushomefree
[Note: no one denies that species have undergone change; but to think that "skin pigmentation" verifies "macro" change, is an utter joke! The Washington Post printed the add... go figure?!!]

That is evolution. Small changes over millions of years. The idea of a fixed species is what is an utter joke. Nature does not have such boundaries. It is like taking a photo of a waterfall and then saying that this small swirl of water here cannot become this other swirl of water over there. We do not see the water fall in action, because our lives are too short. Do you have any idea how long 100 millions years is.

Originally posted by ushomefree
As I have previously stated—and I believe this fully—man "instinctively" has knowledge of God; that is not taught! In other words, there is no such thing as a "true" Atheist," just those who deny His existence; the reasons are many, whether it be shame or—9 times out of 10—pride... all man is aware of God!!

But this God is not the limited god of the bible, and God is not a “he”.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Why??!

Because we are made in the image of God; human beings—creatures having soul—are not deer and/or earthworms. Deer and earthworms have no concept of God and evolution will not change that. Humans do! Again, human beings are made in the image of God—body, mind, and soul. Moreover, to further aid my message, humans beings—yes... you too Shakyamunison (ha ha ha)—believe in "life after death!" Deny such, and you are only fooling yourself!! It is the truth; I am not spotting at the mouth. If Darwinian evolution is true, it is the cruelest thing ever devised. No hope... only time itself. Deer and earthworms do not know the difference, but man does. Do not let a bias lab coats—who claim to know it all!—deny you that. Learn, though Christ Jesus, who God (in the flesh), and what the future holds.

This is your belief, and to you it is true. However, it does not extend beyond the reach of your hand. I believe that I am connected to all other life, but this one person that I am will one-day die. When a wave on the ocean vanishes from sight, where does it go? The wave no longer exists, but the water that made up the wave is still in the ocean.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Many of you, however, think my post is comical, perhaps, ridiculous... but here is the alternative; and it don't look so good... scientifically and spiritually:

1) Nothing produces everything,

2) Non-life produces life,

3) Randomness produces fine-tuning,

4) Chaos produces information,

5) Unconsciousness produces consciousness, and

6) Non-reason produces reason.

[Note: If you prescribe to the "origins of life" through the causes 1 through 6, there is no hope for you; nothing will change your mind. You are deceived, and you take comfort in it. I guess you'd believe that circles are square?!] Stop denying your Creator and face the music![/size]

I cannot help but think, that many of you turn away from God because of your sinful nature!! This is nothing to be hide from; Almighty God—since the beginning of creation—knew man would take advantage of his free-will (and abuse it)! Hence the reason, Jesus the Christ, the first born above ALL creation to redeem man kind!!

[NOTE: SALVATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR WORKS—WHETHER "GOOD" OR "BAD!" I WILL STATE, AGAIN... SALVATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR WORKS!! FORGET ABOUT WORKS, GOD KNOWS YOUR NATURE AND MADE PREPARATIONS TO "REDEEM" YOU!! ME, YOU, AND THE VIRGIN MARY "HERSELF," ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!! READ "SCRIPTURE," YOU ARE NOT THE EXCEPTION. YOU ARE NOT PERFECT!!]

Anyway sheesh... I gotta take a poop (ha ha ha)! Hey (!)... no hard feelings, I am just trying to communicate with you. There is no need, whatsoever, to be disrespectful! Really!! I simply want to—whether you believe or not—help.

But, lay it on me. 🙂

You should study Buddhism. It will show you an alternative way of looking at that you seem to be oblivious too.

heres a example of why I think the big bang theory is,as you kids say now a days "wikidy wikidy waack".They are saying that if you mix the correct elements together hydrogen,oxygen etc. with some sort of power source you will get planets and everything. So if I were to put all these matireals* into a vacuum and give the correct power source I could create my own civilization? Or what if I were to take a clock apart, put all the pieces onto a trampolene throw some batteries into the pile, and jump an infinite amount of times(if this was possible to do) and after a while by freak accident the clock would come together and in fact run.And it would also be set the the correct time just like the planets are on perfect orbit.On another note last weekend i went to see "expelled: no intelligence allowed" and A known evolutionary scientist explained that life started on earth as follows: after the earth was created using the big bang there were crystal, and on the backs of these crystals were the things that started life.how did these matireals* get there i ask you?the following is from the IMDB forum stated by a person I agree with "Isn't it funny what RICHARD DAWKINS said...He says:

"God is about as unlikely as fairies, angels, hobgoblins etc..."

BUT when cajoled by Stein about how life started, he goes on to say that it MAY have been possible that a superior being/race, which came into being over a long amount of time, which is much more technologically advanced may have created life on this planet...(at the end of the movie)

Sounds kinda similar.

So he will believe Aliens, but not God?

Don't get me wrong, I think he is a brilliant person.

Anyway, Aliens sound much cooler than crystals.
sheesh."

Thanks for your time,thought it had to be said.

^^ That's just a variation on Hoyle's 747 caught in a tornado analogy, a staple of creationist rhetoric. Just as flawed, and it betrays a rudimentary understanding of natural selection.