Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
heres a example of why I think the big bang theory is,as you kids say now a days "wikidy wikidy waack".They are saying that if you mix the correct elements together hydrogen,oxygen etc. with some sort of power source you will get planets and everything.
By my understanding that's several steps away from what the Big Bang Theory says . . .
Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
heres a example of why I think the big bang theory is,as you kids say now a days "wikidy wikidy waack".They are saying that if you mix the correct elements together hydrogen,oxygen etc. with some sort of power source you will get planets and everything. So if I were to put all these matireals* into a vacuum and give the correct power source I could create my own civilization? Or what if I were to take a clock apart, put all the pieces onto a trampolene throw some batteries into the pile, and jump an infinite amount of times(if this was possible to do) and after a while by freak accident the clock would come together and in fact run.And it would also be set the the correct time just like the planets are on perfect orbit.On another note last weekend i went to see "expelled: no intelligence allowed" and A known evolutionary scientist explained that life started on earth as follows: after the earth was created using the big bang there were crystal, and on the backs of these crystals were the things that started life.how did these matireals* get there i ask you?the following is from the IMDB forum stated by a person I agree with "Isn't it funny what RICHARD DAWKINS said...He says:"God is about as unlikely as fairies, angels, hobgoblins etc..."
BUT when cajoled by Stein about how life started, he goes on to say that it MAY have been possible that a superior being/race, which came into being over a long amount of time, which is much more technologically advanced may have created life on this planet...(at the end of the movie)
Sounds kinda similar.
So he will believe Aliens, but not God?
Don't get me wrong, I think he is a brilliant person.
Anyway, Aliens sound much cooler than crystals.
sheesh."Thanks for your time,thought it had to be said.
I am shocked by the absolute ignorance that this post has illustrated.
1. The big bang was not an explosion.
2. The big bang has nothing to do with planet formation. The big bang happened 13.5 billion years ago, while the formation of this solar system was 4.5 billion years ago.
3. At the time of the big bang there were no elements like oxygen or hydrogen. Element formed after the big bang.
4. Evolution has nothing to say about how life started; only about how life has changed over time.
5. The orbits of the planets are not perfect.
6. Your clock example is silly because you are ignoring the fact that we are biological and not mechanical. Biology is chemical based, and if you mix the right chemicals together, they will react without help from a human or man made god.
well I am sorry and I admit I must have screwed up. I spoke up in ignorance. I have just began my study in evolution and was going on opinions i had. I still stand on some things I stated but forgive me for my ignorance. Now if someone Evolution/big bang savy would like to inform me on the things they think were incorrect and explain to me why they think it is incorrect I would greatly appreciate it.
thanks much
Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
well I am sorry and I admit I must have screwed up. I spoke up in ignorance. I have just began my study in evolution and was going on opinions i had. I still stand on some things I stated but forgive me for my ignorance. Now if someone Evolution/big bang savy would like to inform me on the things they think were incorrect and explain to me why they think it is incorrect I would greatly appreciate it.thanks much
Sarcasm doesn't complement you.
Start by asking questions.
To Mr. Unicorn:
The analogy was flawed because of this reason: The claim is that supposedly intelligent life could not have arisen by blind chance. The popular form of this argument is Hoyle's argument that evolution states that if you threw the parts of a 747 jet airliner into a tornado, eventually you'd get a completed aircraft. ID advocates then say: "either it's this sort of blind chance, or it's God." Clearly the logical choice in that scenario is God.
But it misrepresents natural selection by a wide margin. Let's take the same 747, and put its parts into different stipulations, ones that mirror evolution. One small part randomly mixes with the rest until it locks together with an adjacent part. This is more cohesive than 1 part, so it stays together. In biology this would be analogous to small adaptations in successive generations of species through genetic mutation that allow an organism to better adapt to its surroundings.
So mix that 2-link chain in the tornado for a few more years, and it's bound to link up with 1-2 more parts (among thousands, I'm assuming). This continues. So we have an completed 747 in just a few thousand years if we assume, say, one match per year. Evolution is working with hundreds of millions of years, so the small adaptations lead to large-scale change.
In Hoyle's scenario (or your clock scenario), the 747 would need to be completed all at once in order for evolution to be correct. But that's not how natural selection works, which is by incremental change over countless generations. Only small things are accomplished at any one time, but the system keeps positive changes. Let's look at it another way:
The famous monkeys typing Shakespeare. Put a thousand monkeys in a room with typewriters for a year. None of them will write Shakespeare (any play will do). But let's say each correct letter is kept, then we move on to the next one (much more akin to how natural selection works). I would venture to say every minute or so we'd have a correct letter (there are only 26 to choose from), so we'd have Shakespeare in probably a few weeks.
So for the earliest stages of evolution to have worked, all that would be needed is simple protein chains that could break down nutrients better (or something similarly mundane). The complexity we see is the result of millions of years of such change.
That's natural selection in a nutshell. I hope it helps.
ID advocates are great at trying to attack evolution. Usually they misrepresent evolution, so they are just plain false. And even if they have valid points about evolution (I have yet to see any worth merit) they fail to recognize that discrediting part of an idea doesn't make the whole thing false...all the evidence that has ever been collected points to evolution being a fact, so even if scientists get one thing wrong, the whole remains intact. And second, disproving one theory (as yet unaccomplished) doesn't automatically make their theory correct, especially when no evidence supports ID.
ID advocates, to have any credibility, would need to first explain how God intervenes in evolution that would give their theory merit, how we are to test for such intervention, and what evidence exists that points to God having intervened in human development. So far, none exists, and the little that does is either bad science or wild speculation, or the aforementioned attacking of evolution (which does nothing to support their theory).
Save yourself the time and effort Digi...
"Claim CF002.1:
Order does not spontaneously form from disorder. A tornado passing through a junkyard would never assemble a 747.
Source:
Hoyle, Fred, 1983. The Intelligent Universe. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, pp. 18-19.
Response:
1. This claim is irrelevant to the theory of evolution itself, since evolution does not occur via assembly from individual parts, but rather via selective gradual modifications to existing structures. Order can and does result from such evolutionary processes.
2. Hoyle applied his analogy to abiogenesis, where it is more applicable. However, the general principle behind it is wrong. Order arises spontaneously from disorder all the time. The tornado itself is an example of order arising spontaneously. Something as complicated as people would not arise spontaneously from raw chemicals, but there is no reason to believe that something as simple as a self-replicating molecule could not form thus. From there, evolution can produce more and more complexity."
Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
I see your point but I see that it has such a small chance of happening like billons and billons times over that it is illogical to think it will ever happen.IMO obviously.
At the very beginning? Sure, you could make that argument but again evolution isn't about the origin of life.
Originally posted by BetrayedUnicorn
I see your point but I see that it has such a small chance of happening like billions and billions times over that it is illogical to think it will ever happen.IMO obviously.
How big is the universe? How long has it been sense the big bang? Logic cannot grasp how big and how old. Your "billions and billions" is a small number when compared to the cosmos.
My thanks to x for the more succinct summary of Hoyle.
What shakya said is very true about the length of time evolution has had to work with, and I'd also mention that "billions and billions" is far more likely once you have the first few steps. Then there are that many more instances where the next step(s) can occur, and so forth. Therefore, the opportunities for random mutations to occur increasing exponentially as species and organisms do, and also as the complexity within their genes increases. It gets to the point where evolution becomes not just a plausible scenario but a likelihood.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution
Originally posted by inimalist
also;first few hundred years of Christianity: Christians were tortured, murdered, suppressed, etc.
first few hundred years of Islam: Revolutionary military victories against impossible odds, major political, economic and social reform, arab world becomes most advanced philosophically, scientifically and militarily (well, not comparing to what might have been going on in the East, which I am really ignorant of).
not that I think Islam is any closer to the truth than Christianity, but if you think about it, which seems more like it was inspired by God?
Early Muslims were also tortured and suppressed.
And while all that is interesting, what's also interesting is that in the last couple centuries Christians invented the telephone, automobile, flight, space travel and aeronautics. All the while, the Muslim world was still stoning adulters and never really left life as it was lived in the time of Mohammed (as if they don't live like that now).
In his book God is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens points out that on 9/11, the terrorists used airplanes and skyscrapers; two pieces of technology that they (the Arab/Muslim world) never would've come up with on their own.
So you tell me.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Early Muslims were also tortured and suppressed.And while all that is interesting, what's also interesting is that in the last couple centuries Christians invented the telephone, automobile, flight, space travel and aeronautics. All the while, the Muslim world was still stoning adulters and never really left life as it was lived in the time of Mohammed (as if they don't live like that now).
In his book God is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens points out that on 9/11, the terrorists used airplanes and skyscrapers; two pieces of technology that they (the Arab/Muslim world) never would've come up with on their own.
So you tell me.
ya, that whole enlightenment and rise of secular values was great for Europe...
though admittedly based heavily on the practices the Muslim invaders brought to Spain and other conquered parts of Europe
but ya, if you are saying that the rise of scientific understanding separates modern technological society from middle aged theocracy, be them Christian or Muslim, I'm in agreement. Lets be honest though, it wasn't until the fall of "Christian rule" that Europe finally got their stuff together.
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
In his book God is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens points out that on 9/11, the terrorists used airplanes and skyscrapers; two pieces of technology that they (the Arab/Muslim world) never would've come up with on their own.
Why would he think that? The foundations of much modern mathematics and engineering stem directly from the discoveries of people in the Middle East. Hell, some books I've read point out that Spain may have lost its place in the world because they threw out the Muslims.
Christians invented all of those things Quiero?! So Christianity is directly responsible for the telephone?
Lulz. Dude, it was civilization, culture, and science that did those things. If they happened to be Christiann, yay for them. But really, are you trying to credit everything good in the world to Christianity's influence? Sometimes people are just smart, or kind, or loving, regardless of their beliefs...and in the last few centuries I fail to see how religion has had a major impact on ANY technological acheivement. More often than not, the opposite has been true, and religion hasn't been at the forefront of scientific knowledge since the Middle Ages.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Christians invented all of those things Quiero?! So Christianity is directly responsible for the telephone?Lulz. Dude, it was civilization, culture, and science that did those things. If they happened to be Christiann, yay for them. But really, are you trying to credit everything good in the world to Christianity's influence? Sometimes people are just smart, or kind, or loving, regardless of their beliefs...and in the last few centuries I fail to see how religion has had a major impact on ANY technological acheivement. More often than not, the opposite has been true, and religion hasn't been at the forefront of scientific knowledge since the Middle Ages.
It's funny how Christians claim that all science was created by Christians and completely ignore that fact that just 100 years ago anyone who was not a Christian would have been persecuted and ostracized by society. Just look at what happen to Galileo, and he was a Christian.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Creation vs Evolution
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Early Muslims were also tortured and suppressed.And while all that is interesting, what's also interesting is that in the last couple centuries Christians invented the telephone, automobile, flight, space travel and aeronautics. All the while, the Muslim world was still stoning adulters and never really left life as it was lived in the time of Mohammed (as if they don't live like that now).
In his book God is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens points out that on 9/11, the terrorists used airplanes and skyscrapers; two pieces of technology that they (the Arab/Muslim world) never would've come up with on their own.
So you tell me.
This is an interesting anecdote. An even more interesting anecdote is that while a man was inventing the telephone, women were keeping house, preparing meals, and raising children. Little did he know that he would devise an invention that many years later, would be most prolifically used by women. This clearly illustrates that men are superior to women.