Re: Thundar
Originally posted by Thundar
The inference you gave was that the linked hypothesis stated "something" came from "nothing."This is so far off from the truth it's not even funny. As Mindship had posted, "nothing" just represents the net force created after the two oppossing energies are combined. So yes.."Duhh" is an appropriate response to my post, as the conclusion you initially came to(and are still alluding to) from this hypothesis was a very silly one.
If one thinks about it logically for a minute, the premise you've provided actually supports the God of the Bible's existence even more, as scripture alludes to him not being an extremist God, but rather being a consistantly-moderate one.
Thus, IMO..if we are to believe this premise to be true. Then one could state that "0" would be representative of the consistantly-moderate nature of God, as he is never influenced by either extreme on the positive or negative side.
Duhh. ..
And here i was thinking that the term "universe" that we throw around here ONLY refers to the positive matter/energy spectrum and its effects (the Big Bang, the creation of galaxies,stars and finally us). In which case, i am correct in saying that the "universe" came out of NOTHING,out of ZERO. There is NO OUTSIDE FORCE OR BEING who said "Let there be light"or provided the injection of energy or whatnot to kickstart the Big Bang. The "universe" has the tools for creation within itself, no Intelligent Designer required.
Now im gonna broaden my definition of the universe and include the negative side of the matter/energy spectrum, the potential energy stored in the curvature of spacetime due to gravity. If taken into account, yeah its true, the net energy in the universe is zero and we are just in this one unending loop of matter/energy transformation.
Now the next question would be: who created this larger universe? this system? who set it into motion? The answer: NONE.
This endless cycle of spontaneous matter/antimatter creation, ending in gravitational collapse which in turn powers the creation of matter and antimatter pairs is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end. The First Cause. Sorry, Thomas of Aquinas, the chain of causality ends here, no God involve. At the very least, this cycle has solid and objective mathematical and yes, experimental proof to it, compared to the vague and unknown Christian God and other would be Intelligent Designers who have obnoxious claims of being the First Cause.
PS: A universe with zero net energy is not proof that the Christian god created the universe. Prove to us first that he exist and then find proof that he INDEED was the one who created the universe.
Keith Norman, "Ex Nihilo: The Development of the Doctrines of God and Creation in Early Christianity," BYU Studies, Spring 1977.Although the Hebrew word bara', here translated created, is usually reserved in the Old Testament for God's activity in forming the world and all things in it, synonymous terms and phrases scattered throughout the Hebrew scriptures take the force out of any attempt to use this fact as evidence that an ex nihilo creation is being described in Genesis 1. The most common of these synonyms are ysar, to shape or form, and 'h, to make or produce. In a study of the Hebrew conception of the created order, ... both bra', and ysar carry the anthropomorphic sense of fashioning, while 'h connotes a more general idea of production. Throughout the Old Testament the image is that of the craftsman fashioning a work of art and skill, the potter shaping the vessel out of clay, or the weaver at his loom. The heavens and the earth are "the work of God's hand."
...it was the creation ex nihilo tradition which prompted the translation of Genesis 1:1 found in the King James and similar versions. ...the Hebrew ber ît would more properly be rendered "in the beginning of" rather than simply "In the beginning." Thus the first verse of Genesis does not stand apart from the following narrative as a kind of summarizing prelude, but merges naturally with verse two, and we might correctly translate, ... "When God ;set about to create heaven and earth, the world being then a formless waste...," ...translation of Genesis 1:1 as an independent statement, implying that God first created matter out of nothing, and then ... proceeded to fashion the world from that raw material, is now widely questioned....
The King James translation of Genesis 1:2, which renders the Hebrew as "void," has also lent support to the creation ex nihilo theory, whereas actually the word always occurs in the Old Testament in tandem with tohû ("formless"😉, describing a "formless waste," or the "chaos" common to Near Eastern creation mythology. ...
The Biblical "creation" story isn't an ex nihilo creation. So a Christian ex nihilo argument falls flat on its face.