cap vs wolverine vs spider man

This just proves my point and is my biggest problem with you, you don't listen, you don't read, and you don't comprehend. You take my post and you misquote it and read it to a degree you're satisified with, I've never seen someone contradict themselves so many times within the same argument, it's absurd. You claim that Spiderman cannot dodge lasers but Cap can? WTF? And the real world shit again, where was I talking about the real world in the terms that you were, I'm talking about getting the characters, PUTTING them in a debate, and judging a theoretical match as realistically as possible, the problem with dealing with superfans is they start little feat wars from their respect thread without using logic and a shred of common sense. I.E, Cap can catch missles. I'm sure once I finish spending a great deal of time with this argument, you'll only misinterpret it and bring the same countered points up again, that EVERYONE has gone over. It's starting to be a waste of my time, in the THIRD thread its been brought up in.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah but if you look at his feats alot of them can be considered superhuman

Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I pull a scan of him catching a missle?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im just saying you ignore important points thats up to you. *shrug*

What point have I ignored? I've been on here more than anyone else thoroghly putting up points. I can disagree with them however I want, but that doesn't mean I ignore them. YOU on the other hand ignore what I've said various times and put what you want up there. You ignore the rules and everything. You CONSTANTLY change your points time and time again with the rest. It went from Cap being uber, to superhuman, to metahuman, to he's peak but....

I don't think so.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I will do no such thing. Im gonna bust my *** doing that so you can fob it all off.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The fact of the matter is you said that the reason why Cap does well against Spidey is because of popularity.

Nono, I think Cap does WELL against Spiderman in certain situations without his Iron suit, I just don't think he'll be beating him in a match due to the forum rules, which you continue to neglect. Like my example with the other... debator, who kept making stuff up that made no sense.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Taskmaster, Shang Chi and oh yeah Iron Fist as well have given Spiderman trouble and they are far less popular than Cap.

They are all marvel Icons, and each of them possess a Superhuman ability that Cap does not, be it Taskmasters memory, Iron Fists "Iron Fist". Furthermore in a match with such characters (even ones like elecktra) they are going to make the match interesting. Who wants to see Spiderman dodge everything from them, (neglecting the fact that he does it from much faster opponents anyways).

And Spiderman holds back, something else you neglect.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You still got the audacity to still bring that up.

Like your audacity to bring up Cap ataking missles.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The point is rubbish basically you're in denial thats why you want more examples.

The point was solid and hard on, how he can humans with a simple flick holding back... it's inconsistent. Much like your argument.

Originally posted by Alfheim
See what I mean.....

Let me explain something to you since you aren't too fond of logic. Listen well, even in your insane guage of Caps speed being nearly as fast as his shield (along with other's). He's still WAY under the speed limit to consistently dodge well shot bullets. There's a difference between dodging and a marksman missing. Cap can't SEE the bullets, he isn't faster than one, so how else is he dodging machine-gun rate fire? Then getting hit by guys like DD and Punisher. It's inconsisten PIS. (Although he has dodged bullets, the bullets are there to make the scene interesting), they aren't going to have a character die, and all street levelers have done it, even Xavier's done it once or twice lol.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats not actually what I meant...

Doesn't matter, sardonic irony is sardonic irony.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah when under stress....nonsense so thats what keept him alive all this time.

Since he is lax when he's fighting for his life right?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well sometimes Spiderman does silly stuff too.

I agree, and I don't try to bring them up. You are confusing me for saying "cap is a bad character and spiderman isn't, he can always win all the time".

My initial premise was to focus on PIS itself.

Originally posted by Alfheim
How about this, dont tell me what to do got it?

How is that telling you what to do?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Whatever...

This is what I mean by ignoring a point, you *shrug* and whatever quite alot don't you?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I give you examples of Cap geting hit by Iron man. Doesnt logic indicate that eventhough Iron man was punching him that he was pulling his punches? He wants to hurt Cap not kill him.

Hence the quote "he's killing Cap" go help him.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Did I ever use csans of Cap getting hit by the Hulk as evidence; As far as im concerned if it happens once or twice Cap just got lucky.

I didn't say you did, my point is that he did it, you are arguing for his side, he survived it because Marvel won't kill off a flagship character, that is lucky then huh?

Originally posted by Alfheim
What a load of crap. this is how you dodge bullets in the real world.....you run for cover! This is how peak humans dodge bullets in the MU.

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=liked5mz.jpg

http://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bdbdbd3kx.jpg

http://img105.imageshack.us/my.php?...bullets11sx.jpg

It all depends on the distance between the person and the shooter and their aim, obviously the closer I am to a person the lesser chance I have of dodging that bullet. I find it funny that humans 40-50 miles an hour will dodge bullets, HERE. Because they won't. I'm arguing the forum here for the last time, and a very skilled marksman with a high rate weapon should have no hard time hitting a large target (ignoring his shield), considering a skilled marksman can nail someone getting away in a vehicle. Is Cap faster than a vehicle? Was he further away? So that makes it: a bit of jobbing, and the fact that characters in the MU are amped up, a point which I made for the 3rd time.

Originally posted by Alfheim
This is the sort of stuff that peak humans do on a regular basis, I did not use the word here and there I said on a regular basis. If you're average Joe where to dodge bullets like that he will die. The may call it peak human but the feats are superhuman.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You cannot learn to dodge bullets like that.

There's obvoiusly a limit with that, considering distance and skill like I mentioned earlier.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why do you think when people stormed the shoalin temples with guns, the monks got shot the **** up, the same thing happened in the boxer revolution. Maybe you should take a time machine and teach them how to dodge bullets.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im not saying to you that Cap can beat the Hulk or take a full punch from Iron Man, but im sorry he does have a degree of superhumanity.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Hello!!!!! You're problem is this you keep saying that cap is slightly above the level of an Olympic athelete.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Are you aware eventhough those people arguing against me realised that peak humans in the MU are tougher than they are in real life, and therefore this should be applied to this forum...are they fanboys?

One of them even said that a peak human maybe be able to lift 2 tons.[/B][/QUOTE] Wrong, the limit is 800, not a ton, a ton is superhuman strength. Just like running about 50-60 is superhuman speed. I can see going a bit over that, but not double or triple.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Of course CA is not on the level of Spiderman but to say he is just slightly above an olympic athlete even when the bio does not say that is downright stupid . Tell me does the bio say that he is slightly above an Olympic athelete...whats that no?

Originally posted by Alfheim
You then see him dodging bullets and lasers on a regular basis sometimes using acrobatic skill and you came to the conclusion he is slight above an Olympic athlete....and you're telling me I got a problem?

But funny how you said that Spiderman couldn't do it, and he's 10x the dodger. A proof of your inconsistency.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore the Celestials have experimented on the human race, eventhough you're average human is not going to kick spiderman about they are all potentialy superhuman.

And again, ALL humans can do superhuman things when the time calls for it, you aren't telling me anything I don't already know, your point is invalid. They just aren't in the same with their 5% as spiderman is in his.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why the **** do you think Master Mold freaked out, I mean for crying out loud humans in the MU even if they dont become Dr Strange can learn how to have psionic powers. Then you want to compare humans in the real world to the MU????????

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont see you comparing Tony Starks intelligence to people in the real world. Ive told you this already if you were going to treat Tony like you're treating Cap then Iron Man should have no armour.

Wrong, read above. You'd be surprised what the military can do though. 😉

Originally posted by Alfheim
Actually he does get prep because in the MU Cap has studied Iron spiderman. No im not saying this will make him win the fight , but my undertsanding is that the Cap in this forum will be the standard Cap in the MU. Sure Spiderman will have basic knowledge but due to the events in the MU Cap will have more. Spiderman's new suit is actually a recent addition but has become standard equipment.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er from what I remember level 3 started at one ton then moved to something like 8 then level 4 started at something like 10 then moved to I think like you said 25. i ahve to admit Cap just scrapes in at level 3 but depending on where he landed in level 3 it may not be a huge difference. For example if he could lift 5 tons ( which he cant) level 4 would be much better but not a massive amount, but it is in this case.

Originally posted by Alfheim
As for his agility and when I mean agility I mean dodging there are no lbs and tons to compare what cap and Spidey do but we can see from the comics that Cap does similar stuff on a lower level, but of course you're going to ignore all this.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Now if you think one level is a big deal what about someone being three levels highier. his fighting skills are so great they act as a modifier on his other abilities.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Er no thats not true. People who have big muscles can sometimes have there speed reduced in order to compensate for power. Yeah they can punch hard and lift alot but that does not mean that strength means more speed.. Also there is a technique to punching everyone knows how to punch but in boxing if you dont punch in acertain way it will reduce you're speed regardless of how string you are. Strength does not always equal speed.

I already covered punching tech.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Where did you get that his bio? Thats why sometimes people dont use bios for evidence, regardles of wether they are rooting for Cap or not.
Sorry.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I seeee....so when I said Spidey not using stealth mode was PIS I was not being logical? When I said Iron man had to be pulling his punches I was not being logical? When I said that Cap cant beat the Hulk I was not being logical? Im just a big fanboy.

Oh and "he's killing Captain"

Where did I ever bring up a point about him beating hulk?

Originally posted by Alfheim
No they do not. Its the martial arts superheroes who have a tendency to be able to hurt stronger oponents

Any 5 year old out there know that heroes overcome overwhelming odds. And Spiderman beat the living shit out of Brock's symbiote, so that's crazy. Most of Spiderman's foes are stronger than him.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes you did! If you want I'll go and hunt it down, of all the bios in all the world you had to pick that one. If you dont anwser any of my questions answer this one. Tony Starks has genuis level intellect if you were to make him like a genuis in the real world would he be able to build his suit?

2. Already covered and the comparison isn't parallel at all.

Originally posted by Alfheim
The whole problem is that even people arguing for Spdierman dont even use you're argument because its rubbish. A more realistic way of arguing is trying to deduce from the bios and the comics what level a superhero at even if it means they are far in excess of what humans can do. For example one person said that the reason why Iron man can do what he does is because that is simply his prescibed power, because if you use you're argument he wont even have any armour. So in other words you have to accept that on this forum humans are alot tougher

Originally posted by Alfheim
If you look at the bio you used it says this...I repeat....

Originally posted by Alfheim
<He is extremely skilled in hand-to-hand combat, sometimes taking on and defeating foes whose strength, size, or superpowers greatly exceed his. <

Originally posted by Alfheim
That can be considered his prescribed powers I dont give a **** about anybody else but the fact of the matter is he is so good at martial arts he can take on people like Spiderman.

Sounds like more wet dreams. Martial arts alone can compensate for soooo much, he can take Spiderman on, he is just less than likely to win in a forum match, this forum match. And that's not a power, that's a description.

He can take on Peter, but not form MA alone... sorry. If he didn't have the serum he'd lose terribly.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I will say this. I will even say that Iron Spiderman wins 10/10 in his suit but im not having Cap being slightly above that an Olympic athelete and im not having that Cap cannot give Iron Spidey problems.

Originally posted by Alfheim
1. His bio says that he is above the level of an Olympic athelete.

C-Master said - He is only slightly eventhough it does not say that in the bio.

Originally posted by Alfheim
2. The comics show him consistenly dodging lasers and bullets.

C-Master said - Bullets and lasers and the biggest jobbers.

I explained why, maybe you should use the forum modifiers.

Originally posted by Alfheim
3. C-Master then gets a bio which clearly states in black and white that his fighting abilities are good enough to take on and beat some superhumans and is furthermore reinforced by the comics.

C-Master said - I didn't put the bio up (When he did, and still thinks that Cap is slightly above an Olympic athlete when the bio he put up says his skills are good enough to beat superhumans)

Post has nothing to do with an olympic athlete or not. Superhuman is a very vague term... Cap himself is at the foothold of being one, of course he can beat one, he just has to work harder.

You are putting words in my mouth to help your own argument is what you're doing.

As for the Daredevil thing, that was YOU that said Olympic yourself silly, Cap isn't much higher than DD except in strength.

Originally posted by Alfheim
4. Cap can Spiderman trouble in the comics;

C- master said - It's because he is popular. I give examples of less popular charcters but then he wants more....

No, I said he survives his punches without flying because of that. Which was parallel to Iron Man not killing him or hulk, but you simply said, "He was lucky."

Cap can give Spiderman trouble again, so please point out where I said he couldn't?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Conclusion anything that you dont like you make some excuse

Conclusion, anything you can't understand you misinterpret and quote to a point you are satisified with, contradicting yourself. You prove it time and time again.

Originally posted by Alfheim
C-Master are you reading this? Eventhough this person belives that Spiderman will have Cap he knows Cap is not slightly above an Olympic athlete.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but he does not go just off instinct. Cap has be shown to have low level pre-cog too.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Im not even going to respond to your first post, you keep ignoring Cap's Fighting ability, He is one of the top skilled H2H fighters in Marvel and genius Combat strategist and you ignore it all.

Originally posted by thedude1948
It is a stupid analogy because a rhino weighs 6000 lbs and doesnt have a human shaped body, and insane durability. so now you are comparing a random MA to cap who is a peak human with More MA knowledge than almost anyone else on Marvel earth. another stupid comparison

I don't think it's the comparison that's stupid. If anything it's giving Spiderman the Ben of the doubt because Spiderman can beat a damned Rhino with little trouble, seeing as he also has webbing and precog. Damn I made that easy for you.

1. The rhino is an easy target as well,

2. The force is about the same.

3. Cap throws punches and kicks like everyone else.

4. Spiderman can climb walls, oh shit!

Can a martial artist beat a gorilla then? Gorillas are alot like humans, but much stronger.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Pressure points are not effective in a fight.

Since you say it it must be true, now explain why.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Also most people in the military and law enforcement now do not use pressure points, they use joint manipulation techniques and chokes from Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, not pressure points since they are in no way effective.

So stupid, I have a fighting book from my military days and it has critical AND nerve points in there and they teach you to learn them, and yes you learn throws and grabs as well, but a pressure point subdues them with less effort, I've used them and beaten a larger opponent several times.

Furthremore my dad is a cop and HE knows them, they teach people them because it's an easier way to subdue larger opponents. Since most fights become grab-fests.

Originally posted by thedude1948
But if someone like Cap did exist in the real world he could use pressure points but for a normal fighter like Spidey he would not have the skills to implement them effectively.

Originally posted by thedude1948
If you really think this is a plausible fight scenario you are a moron, people dont bumrush eachother in a real fight unless that person is retarded. When im making my examples I am considering that both fighters are at least somewhat knowledgeable in fighting.

Yes I'm a moron in all of my fields of study and martial arts study as well. What fights have you been watching, most fights are very short and adrenaline pumped, it's really meant to help you out as you are arguing Spiderman to be less skilled. Most matches turn into grabbing brawls where people hit. You shouldn't run up front but that's my example of how to kill a person. You watch too many movies, and this is the problem with fighting, a person who has sat in classes all day but hasn't actually fought has terrible application. THey can't control their mood and anger, or any of that. So when they fight someone who has street-fought for years and won't use their code of honor, they end up losing. This is why most people cannot fight.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Overated styles are overated, you take one shitty Karate class and use that to form your whole idea on fighting? The only way to be a better fighter is sparring, Go to a good Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu jitsu, MMA or Judo school. find a guy smaller and weaker who has been training a coupla years and ask him to spar, you will see that fighting skill isnt worthless.

Originally posted by thedude1948
If both fighters are somewhat skilled a 1 punch KO is rare, KO's mostly happen after combos.

Spider-man wins.

Well said

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Wrong, the limit is 800, not a ton, a ton is superhuman strength. Just like running about 50-60 is superhuman speed. I can see going a bit over that, but not double or triple.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well said

Basically, we're saying the same thing, except your posts are much longer. 😛

Ok it seems that we are debating for no reason and maybe we agree on alot of stuff that I did not realise. I dont have time to respond to everything. But I will respond to this point.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master

Like your audacity to bring up Cap ataking missles.

I do not think that current Cap can catch a missle. You do realise I have made this clear? To me I dont care because he cant do that now, also when he did that feat I am not sure how superhuman he was for all I know he could have been 25 - 30. Basically I guess the strength range of ultimate cap and ultimate cap can take on the Hulk. So I dont think it would be impossible for Ultimate Cap to do, if you think it is fine.

As for the analogies are you talking about the one with the Rhino, im sure I replied to that.

As for ignoring points...ok sometimes I do give you a "whatever", but the porblem is that I have probably replied to a similar point and cant be bothered to do it again.

I also suspect that you might be misunderstanding some of the things im saying. I will try to read you're posts in more detail then and reply later.

Originally posted by thedude1948
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scot_Mendelson

Steroids!!! LOL

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I've clearly gone over fighting, because I know more about it than you do, I've ignored nothing, that is your copout for you not countering it.

No we are just going around in circles with it now.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Can a martial artist beat a gorilla then? Gorillas are alot like humans, but much stronger.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Since you say it it must be true, now explain why.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
So stupid, I have a fighting book from my military days and it has critical AND nerve points in there and they teach you to learn them, and yes you learn throws and grabs as well, but a pressure point subdues them with less effort, I've used them and beaten a larger opponent several times.

Furthremore my dad is a cop and HE knows them, they teach people them because it's an easier way to subdue larger opponents. Since most fights become grab-fests.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Now you are debunking your own argument, sad. It's really not that hard to learn strikes on basic places.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
You watch too many movies, and this is the problem with fighting, a person who has sat in classes all day but hasn't actually fought has terrible application. THey can't control their mood and anger, or any of that. So when they fight someone who has street-fought for years and won't use their code of honor, they end up losing. This is why most people cannot fight.

Originally posted by Thedude1948
The only way to be a better fighter is sparring, Go to a good Muay Thai, Brazilian Jiu jitsu, MMA or Judo school. find a guy smaller and weaker who has been training a coupla years and ask him to spar, you will see that fighting skill isnt worthless.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
On both sides of the same argument again, you are saying it's overrated then it's not. *sigh*

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Someone's been playing too many video games with the combos laughing I do agree that they have to get a good shot in to KO however.

once again i would like to remind eveyone that this is a 3 way fight

Originally posted by lando005
once again i would like to remind eveyone that this is a 3 way fight

Okay in my fight scenario, Spider-Man webs Wolverine up and than Cap knocks him out with the shield leaving Spider-man and Cap left. 😉

there's just too much here to quote and debuke on so i'll just say this joint manipulation and other holds are equally as valueable as pressure points and all of them can be effectivly employed in a fight, cops military forces and mas all know this, there is no one that is more effective than the other proper balance and use of all of them is needed same with fighing styles if someone was to say kung fu is better than maui tai or karate they are bias and sadly mistaken it all depends on the skill level of that fighter, as a fighter myself i take elements of all forms i have studied wether it's from my wrestling military or martial backgrounds they all have strenghts and weaknesses......and spiderman is more durable than a gorilla

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Hell Wolverine admitted Spiderman can break his neck, I guess we can go by that to?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
That's funny since Spiderman's skeletal and musculstature has been augmented to support his lifting strength, his body is more dense and he has more outside durability than Wolverine or Cap (this means it takes more force to do initial damage to him.)

Originally posted by thedude1948
Okay in my fight scenario, Spider-Man webs Wolverine up and than Cap knocks him out with the shield leaving Spider-man and Cap left. 😉

Originally posted by lando005
there's just too much here to quote and debuke on so i'll just say this joint manipulation and other holds are equally as valueable as pressure points and all of them can be effectivly employed in a fight, cops military forces and mas all know this, there is no one that is more effective than the other proper balance and use of all of them is needed same with fighing styles if someone was to say kung fu is better than maui tai or karate they are bias and sadly mistaken it all depends on the skill level of that fighter, as a fighter myself i take elements of all forms i have studied wether it's from my wrestling military or martial backgrounds they all have strenghts and weaknesses......and spiderman is more durable than a gorilla

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I believe that incapacitating an opponent and Disabling someones limbs > pain.I agree not one style is perfect, and combinations of a couple like Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is better. But I do not believe all styles are equal, there are stronger and weaker styles. In the handbooks both Cap and Spiderman have Durability at 3, that is enhanced. I really dont think Spiderman can take a punch to the face as well as a gorilla can.

Originally posted by thedude1948
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because I believe that incapacitating an opponent and Disabling someones limbs > pain.I agree not one style is perfect, and combinations of a couple like Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is better. But I do not believe all styles are equal, there are stronger and weaker styles. In the handbooks both Cap and Spiderman have Durability at 3, that is enhanced. I really dont think Spiderman can take a punch to the face as well as a gorilla can.

let's not make this a spiderman vs a gorilla thing for the sake of stopping another argument i'll agree with you , however where as all styles are ont equal no one style is stronger than another, it's all base on the particular fighter and his experiance level, and knowlege of his/her opponent

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok it seems that we are debating for no reason and maybe we agree on alot of stuff that I did not realise. I dont have time to respond to everything. But I will respond to this point.

[B]I do not think that current Cap can catch a missle. You do realise I have made this clear? To me I dont care because he cant do that now, also when he did that feat I am not sure how superhuman he was for all I know he could have been 25 - 30. Basically I guess the strength range of ultimate cap and ultimate cap can take on the Hulk. So I dont think it would be impossible for Ultimate Cap to do, if you think it is fine.

As for the analogies are you talking about the one with the Rhino, im sure I replied to that.

As for ignoring points...ok sometimes I do give you a "whatever", but the porblem is that I have probably replied to a similar point and cant be bothered to do it again.

I also suspect that you might be misunderstanding some of the things im saying. I will try to read you're posts in more detail then and reply later. [/B]

Originally posted by riceroost
Wolverine was most likely effing with Spider-Man since that is impossible. He probably was curious to see if Spidey would try it, testing him and the like.
This isn't really true. Wolverine's natural durability has been hieghtened both by his healing factor and by treatments from Weapon X. Spidey's natural durability can't be that great since Jigsaw snapped his arm like it was a dry twig during the "Breakout" storyarc. Jigsaw has no powers, as such even Cap is stronger than him. Jigsaw also didn't use a joint or any Martial Arts bone breaking techniques. He just broke it in the middle of the bone on pure dumb strength. If Jigsaw can do that Cap could. Not saying Cap could win, just that Spidey's enhanced durability does not in any way save him from conventional injury. Both Cap and Wolverine should have the pure punching power neccessary to kill Spider-Man if they so desired.

I'm not using the Wolverine quote as valid evidence.