The hero's 12 steps

My guess would be that anti heroes spend more time in rejecting the call. They don't see themselves as heroic and usually don't think they can make a difference. Sometimes they're usually doing something self-promoting that distracts them from doing the right thing. Look at Han Solo, who is an anti-hero.

1. Ordinary World: he's a pirate in their universe, a smuggler who lives day in and day out exactly the same, running from the law.
2. Call to Adventure: Luke and Obi-Wan hire him for a lot more than any of them bargained for.
3. Refusal of the Call: He blantantly tells Leia he's in it for the money. He spends a long time in this stage, much longer than Luke. The whole second movie he's stuck in a refusal.
4. Meeting With the Mentor: Lando is kind of an anti-mentor to Han. He's not who Han wants to be, and I think he has Chewie for a mentor in the sense that Chewie is his conscience.
5. Crossing the First Threshold: It doesn't look like much, but in the first movie, he saves Luke from being blown up by the Death Star. Keeping in order, he also saves Leia from the Empire and bravely steps in front of her when they meet Darth Vader.
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies: the whole deal with whether or not to trust Lando is a test, gaining an ally or an enemy, and Boba Fett is basically Han's arch enemy.
7. Approach: I still don't know what this is, LovelyOne!!!!!!!!!
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir

I need some help understanding what the last few are. Anyone?

katelovespirate..for some reason i think Tia is going to remain the main mentor in the story because 2/3 is basically one story..its not really a new story when it starts in movie 3 its just continuing from the other..they have all met the most important mentor who is the person to kick them off on their journey..Jack actually needs a bit of extra help..she gives him something physical to help him achieve his elixir..because the main hero usually does need some sort of aid..

Davy..I think he's going to play one of those smaller parts..like the "shadow" or something

Willofthewisp..it appears you are rght..Jack is very much the anti hero to start with so tia gives him something physical..to seriously knock some sense into him..and its the Jar of Dirt..he is the one who is making the biggest transition as a person and just giving him the means to his elixier wont be enough I dont think..he needs something else to truly break the mould and slap him in the face and it was the Jar of dirt.

willofthewisp..movie 2 is a totally different story to movie 1..those 12 steps already took place for Will..and Jack was the mentor..

now though each character is setting of on a new heroic adventure by movie 2..I think the normal world first stage is actually movie 1..because Will is a hero..Liz is the leading lady and Jack is the rogue..its how they end it..I think liz and Jack both did their 12 steps too..but in a much smaller way

movie 2 throws us right into stage 2 - Call to adventure and so it begins for each character

its like a whole new story..

and because Will has already been the hero?? EEEKK

Sorry I'm posting so much but this is all exciting me..

Meeting With The Goddess
Woman as Temptress
Atonement with The Father
Apotheosis
(7. Approach To The Inmost Cave / 8. Supreme Ordeal)

He DOES go back because of Elizabeth..the compas DOES point there..and why do the directors/Writers not confirm thet the compass pointed and stuck on her?? because it GIVES IT AWAY! 😂

He's just gone back to her and Apotheosis actually means ELEVATION TO THE RANK OF A GOD..and look at that godlike SHOT THEY USE when the temptress looks up at him!..lol Oh man I love film studies

he doesnt do all of those things in that stage..they are usually the reasons why they go into the inner most cave so its Liz..and its also because of the goddess..Tia had just helped him realize material possessions SUCK and the apotheosis is the supreme ordeal 😂

He's reached that stature in the movie..there is no need for him to do that again..so I doubt he will be the one who accepts imortallity

i still dont quite know what you mean about the jar of dirt.
LOL... in my mind, the jar of dirt is just the jar of dirt... something Tia knew would soothe Jack's mind and help him get over there and get the bloody key, cause at this point Jack was afraid of oepn water. And being close to Jones, Tia knew the loopholes of his curses and punishments.
i dont think she had any deep sinister use or meaning for the jar of dirt other than honestly helping Jack. and i think it was a comic gag, also. 😄

you don't just randomly add in a jar of dirt unless it means something..Jack appears to be the main hero of the story now..but he's making the transition from anti hero to hero so its going to be tough for him..and the main hero is usually given something physical to help in their journey to face the inner most cave/supreme ordeal..instead of just being given the actual elixir in his life.he needs a bit more help lol..thats why when we see him take the first threshold he's not exactly changing all that much..he does take liz on board..but he needs something to really wake him and decide to make her an obligation..unlike Will who as soon as he meets his dad decides to pursue the means to save him..and as soon as Liz meets the supernatural helper she straight away knows she wants Jack back in her life..but Jack being Jack?? needs a bot more of a SHOVE

"is it going to help?" - Jack

"if you don't want it give it back" - Tia

"no" - Jack

"then it helps" - Tia

See tia knows its going to help him..she's not REALLY giving him the means to pursue the chest..or help him gain the heart..because it NOT his true elixir..Jack knows he wants Liz but is reluctant to give up his "freedom" for her..this whole pursuing the chest of his is something to distract him from Elizabeth and being brave and he knows it..Tia knows that the only way Jack will accept Liz is if he learns to let go of material objects and a selfish way of living

Jack is a very selfish and cowardly man and this JoD actually helps him realize that there are more important things to worry about in life than material objects and the means to save ones skin..(coward)..the jar of dirt betrays him in a time of danger.so he learns to stop loving them so much..to stop foolishly clinging onto material objects to feel strong in times of danger because they CANT make you strong and you cant really rely on them because they are not a long term answer to safety and happiness..at all..and he learns this..he loses the heart..which was never the true elixir anyway..and he's learned to stop treating material objects as if they are the most important things in his life

He now has reason to approach his inner most cave..Elizabeth the elixir and Tia(goddess/supernatural with the Jar of dirt) helped prompt him along..then he faces the supreme ordeal and elevates to a god..and Liz clings to his leg with hat godlike shot..the temptress clings to his leg..later Jack gains the reward which is the actual elixir..and the only thing i see him happy about getting there is Elizabeth lol

SO True about the JOD 🙂 I never quite thought of it that way!!

"willofthewisp..movie 2 is a totally different story to movie 1..those 12 steps already took place for Will..and Jack was the mentor.."

I'm looking at all three movies as a continuous story. If Will is going to be tempted to cross into the dark side, then his hero story isn't complete. If it took Jack two movies to be at the point of waiting for resurrection, then his story's not complete. These steps apply to all three of them because all three of them grow in all the series. I would call all of Movie 1 Will's crossing of the threshold. Jack serves more as a mentor, but we find out he is undergoing his own hero process. I just am looking at all three as three acts of a play rather than separate stories.

It cant be because this is as far as Liz gets from the start of movie 2 which is actually the call to adventure..movie 2 and 3 are one story..they made sure each character has actualy found their true calling in life from the mentor beforeit cuts out .Liz only JUST makes it before the movie closes because they want people to be thinking that her refusal of the call was the main emotional step she took, she's "chosen Will".. ..when she actually took 2 more really quickly before it closed..its to keep everyone wondering

1. Ordinary World - movie 1 ends
2. Call to Adventure - movie 2 starts she thinks she wants Will but its actually Jack..and when she gets called upon to be with jack?
3. Refusal of the Call - she refuses Jack and wants to stick with her old way of life..she doesnt want adventure
4. Meeting With the Mentor - meets tia
5. Crossing the First Threshold - accepts her elixir/adventure

remember movie 1 was made with no intention of a movie 2..so they had to give that movie proper closure..and end the 12 steps nicely. It was one story on its own..no intention of a second

They had to do that with Movie 1 of star wars aswell..they never had the intention to make 2 or 3..so Lucas used the 12 steps in that story when 2 and 3 came out he started again and put them over movie 2 and 3 evenly

What i notice with BOTH though..is how they did close the story..but they left little hints out there for a sequal if it was a success..which PotC 1 and star wars 1 actually did before it closed

Jack with Liz on his mind as he leaves
Liz and the whole how far did she go with Jack?
Will and the fact his father is still alive somewhere
they showed a little darkness in Will's character
and in Liz

and little goodness in Jack 😂

I just don't think Movie 1 should be considered her ordinary world. It is her first adventure, being kidnapped by pirates and then fighting alongside another band of pirates to stop her kidnappers. Somehow that has to be her call to action because her character's most basic characteristic is that she needs an adventure. I would almost say that her refusal to accept the call is when she has her little outburst on the beach. She's been disillusioned about the pirate life, is mad at Jack, and mad at Will and Norrington. What do you think? I just think if we're going to say the hero steps apply to her, we can't focus too heavily on her romance with Jack. We have to focus on just her.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I just don't think Movie 1 should be considered her ordinary world. It is her first adventure, being kidnapped by pirates and then fighting alongside another band of pirates to stop her kidnappers. Somehow that has to be her call to action because her character's most basic characteristic is that she needs an adventure. I would almost say that her refusal to accept the call is when she has her little outburst on the beach. She's been disillusioned about the pirate life, is mad at Jack, and mad at Will and Norrington. What do you think? I just think if we're going to say the hero steps apply to her, we can't focus too heavily on her romance with Jack. We have to focus on just her.

i agree. we need to focus on these characters as whole by themselves, ya know? or something. lol.

It's just that we seem to define women by who they are romantically linked to much more than we do men. On a board like this, that's fine because we all want one of the guys to be with Liz (Jack! Come on!) but you can't do that if you're looking at her from a heroine point of view. Based on her choices and her overall goal of getting her adventure, I'd say Movie 1 takes her out of her ordinary world.

gosh, you ladies are just getting to complicated for me. All of this is making my head spin. All I want is for Jack and Liz to sail away together...but movie 3 must be full of tensed moments....and I definitely think the ultimate Hero in this trilogy is Jack...the actor Johnny Depp has said his character gets to go places he never thought possible for this character in movie 3...I wonder what that could mean..I guess it could be that he becomes the ultimate good guy....but I find that hard to believe because he is Captain Jack Sparrow...but then again...the Jack Sparrow we saw at the end of DMC was a totally different Jack...and IMO a much more likeable Jack....and sexier....but anyways, I digress...
Or could it mean he actually admits to falling in love....or after his near death experience ....he becomes darker...I hope not the third....if you read that stupid leaked script (which I hate by the way) it makes Jack sound darker and disillusioned....I don't really like Jack in the leaked script...and there was a comment by Jerry B. that said in the third movie (I read in a magazine one day at grocery store) that they take the character of Jack Sparrow to places never imagined...and that you have to take risks in order to keep the audience interested...you can't keep things status quo...and then that comment where I read one of the writers (T and T) say that: People see the character of Jack Sparrow as a good guy...but he is? That's why we put him in situations to see how the character reacts...well, I would say by the end of DMC - it's proven that Jack is a good man...because instead of doing the cowardly thing and continuing to row toward land and abandon his ship and friends...he goes back and saves the day....Plus, Jack does consider himself a CAPTAIN...and a Captain always goes down with his ship...so me thinks...that he did plan to stay and he let Liz chain him to the mast...so he could prove to her that she was like him...he's smiling cuz she proves herself true to him...and I read this on fanfic and it made sense...Jack may realize he loves her right there, right at that moment...but instead of being able to say "I love you" because that is not part of his vocabulary...he simply says "Pirate." I know this has nothing to do with the 12 steps to a hero...but just felt like talking about my feelings on the movie and this seems to be the only place I can turn. Thank you, girls, for always listening to me...And I love reading what everyone posts....

mmmmm another fabulous post lovethemtigers.

Well, perhaps that will be part of Jack's journey. I might be a bit darker and disillusioned if I had died and was sailing around some depressing locker full of crabs. But after the crew rescues him and they all have a mission to save piracy from the EITC and stuff, I reckon Jack will get his spirits back. right?
Also, even though i think Jack was proud of what Liz did and was turned on by it, thats still a major blow to whether or not he will trust people at large. And not only that, but if he really does still have feelings for Elizabeth, and sees her continuing with Will (i havent read the script so i dont know) that would depress him, right?

I definately think that ALL the characters are going to some dark places in 3... but they will come back and get happy and funny again by the end.

Lovethemtigers, no one wants to make you feel stupid or anything. Your posts are quite deep and insightful and so common sense that I love hearing from you. It was a great post.

I read SOME, like a page or two of the "leaked" script. Remember it's the first draft. Few scripts go without changes. Just read the original POTC: COTBP script. Full of differences. I want Jack and Liz to sail away together, too, but I don't think it's going to be easy. He is going to be darker because he doesn't know himself as well as he thought he did. He never thought in a million years he would go back to a ship that was about to be pulled apart by the kraken. He's not going to be as confident and he probably has no idea how to act around Liz.

yeah but that was one story its not really linked with movie 2 and 3 the main enemy is different EITC/Davy Jones..they have actually started from scratch again with the 12 steps because each character's arc has changed with this movie and its going to continue into movie 3

there was a pretty much closed ending with movie 1 of star wars and movie 2 ended on a cliff hanger to continue to movie 3..2/3 were pretty much 1 story..where as 1 was just a movie of its own really..

the first thereshold is actually just after getting help from the mentor..when you look at the lion king. He meets Rafiki and then his first threshold is following him to find his father..the one thing he was reluctant to do.

there is a whole new mentor in DMC/AWE for all the characters..meaning the 12 steps have started again...it seems as if they are giving each main character a hero's journey this time..not just 1..they bcause movie 2/3 are one story they have more time to make this happen.thats why movie 2 was so ling..because its following each character's hero's journey

I'm sure that Obi Wan was the mentor for luke in one...and movie 2/3 it was yoda?

lovethemtigers The place where everyone thinks he cant go is love with a woman LOL there is a whole theme arising in movie 3 about Jack not being abe to love a woman (even though we have SEEN him do it by the end of movie 2)..but he totally is by the end of it lmao..Its gonna be lizzie

LovelyOne...you are just so confident when it comes to jack and liz...as much as I want it to be Jack and Liz I'm just not as confident as you are...I so hope you are right in all of your theories....I'm beginning to lose hope the further we move away from DMC and toward AWE...I need to go back and read the thread All Clues Point to Jack and Elizabeth..that's back when I was confident.

lovethemtigers..we don't need to worry lol because Jack is 10 steps ahead of everyone as usual LOL and the last thing he did before he died was gain his elixir..he just needs to return home with it lol..we all know the reward/elixir he got was Liz in that scene 😂

trust me there will be a moment where he gives up on her in movie 3 for a while..there is always a reason why the hero feels as if they cant go on just after they have gained the elixir..but then they completely resurrect themselves 😄 they get help from within/someone reminds them of what they set out to do and IMO

Think of the lion king..he has his elixir (return home as king) but Scar taunts him and makes him feel weak again...then he resurrects himself and totally kicks his ass..he rescued himself from within because he remembered his father dying at the hands of scar.

Then when you look at frodo..he finally gets to mount doom to relieve him of his burden. The relief of the burden is frodo's elixir..but THEN he refuses to continue "NO! the ring is mine!"..he needs to be rescued from within and Sam does that for him/prompts him to pull himself out of the refusal and frodo then resurrects himself and lets the ring go.

hero's elixirs can be different things..it can be a woman..or it can be relieving a burden for themselves and everyone like frodo with the ring or harry potter with his scar/voldermort..those kind of Hero's tend not to do what they do for the female.

when the elixir is a woman..its usually defeating the fear of protecting her..and thats what we see Jack do as he goes back..his fear of making her an obligation in his life

Will is probably going to be the one who kills davy Jones and gain his elixir (father)..that will be his supreme ordeal..Jack has already gone through his...he just needs to friggin TAKE lizzie be brave enough to take her and return home with her lol

I have a feeling Liz' supreme ordeal will be rescuing Jack from the EITC or something.

Its funny how there were 3 enemies introduced into the story..one for each character to kill/defeat..they also have to defeat something emotionally within themselves to defeat it..Jack has done his(kraken/facing up to accepting Liz)..Liz's is obviously Beckett and the EITC..and the EITC has it in for JACK! not Will..its just like Beckett saying "you seem to be going though alot of trouble to ensure Jack's safety" and she's like NO in her denial..because she was still in stage 2 back then..she's TOTALLY going to rescue Jack from them in movie 3 I bet you..its her elixir she will gain!

Will's is obviously Davy Jones..he may side with him for a while..but I'm betting he will defeat him and save his father..Will also has the potential to turn into an anti hero with these steps..(Robert de niro Taxi) they do something TOTALLY bad and crazy for what they think is the greater good..but you still like them by the end of it lol..they redeem themselves..

SORRY TRIPLE POST!