Originally posted by LovelyOne'
well Will kinda turns against Jack for much of movie 3 e goes onto the side of the EITC and Davy Jones..and sends enemies after Jack etc..so IMO Jack might be slightly pissed off with him...I think those two are going to drift even further appart.
this is kind of sad, though, in a way..if you look back at POTC 1 - the way it ended, Jack and Will fighting side by side....Will risking his life to save Jack's - "my place is between you and Jack"....and it's all because of the writers putting Jack into the love triangle...before all the leaked script came out and everything...I was hoping that their could be some resolution...that perhaps Will would come to realize...in a honest, man sort of way...that he and Liz have grown apart...that he would actually fall out of love with Liz and realize that she and Jack belong together and willingly step aside and all three of them could be happy together...ya know...Jack and Will friends, Will and Liz friends, Jack and Liz lovers....Oh well...so much for the POTC 1 - the 2 sequels pretty much does away with the original theme of that movie.
It's kind of like Jurassic Park...I hated with Jurassic Park 3 came out and we find out she marries someone else besides Dr. Grant...Dr. Grant is all alone...it kind of negates the good feeling at the end of Jurassic One...where it shows her smiling at him because he has learned to love children..it makes you think they will get married and have children and then 3 comes out and she is married to someone totally different...so same with the POTC trilogy...by the time AWE is over....POTC is negated, almost like it doesn't even tie in with 2 and 3...
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
'this is kind of sad, though, in a way..if you look back at POTC 1 - the way it ended, Jack and Will fighting side by side....Will risking his life to save Jack's - "my place is between you and Jack"....and it's all because of the writers putting Jack into the love triangle...before all the leaked script came out and everything...I was hoping that their could be some resolution...that perhaps Will would come to realize...in a honest, man sort of way...that he and Liz have grown apart...that he would actually fall out of love with Liz and realize that she and Jack belong together and willingly step aside and all three of them could be happy together...ya know...Jack and Will friends, Will and Liz friends, Jack and Liz lovers....Oh well...so much for the POTC 1 - the 2 sequels pretty much does away with the original theme of that movie.
Well, the writers have said to look at POTC 1 as a movie in itself. They're almost considering it a separate entity from 2 and 3. However, I think you're right. Perhaps that is the true bitter sweet quality to AWE. The strengths of friendships are being tested and not withstanding the strain. If the three of them can work past their differences a little, I think that would qualify a bitter sweet ending. But if Will and Jack are permanently at odds, I would call that tragic, wouldn't you?
However, that's not saying that Jack isn't still loyal to Will and in his own way, Will still loyal to Jack. There are moments when the friendship, however shaky, is still there. Not to mention, Will seems almost hell bent on making Jack admit his feelings in the script in AWE, almost as though he needs to hear the words from Jack's lips.
They make sacrifices for each other on their own terms. Jack was willing to look after Elizabeth and never say a word of his brewing attraction in POTC 1 in honor of Will. He continued to be noble in POTC 2 by staying away from Port Royal even though his attraction to Elizabeth is so bad that it's affecting the way he lives. Jack went to his death, knowing on some level that he was dying so that the crew, and more importantly Will and Elizabeth would live.
Will sacrificed his honor and nearly his life to save Jack's life in POTC 1. He was willing to be the one to go over to the Flying Dutchman to find the key for Jack, even though he didn't know the full implications of his choice. The question is, what is Will willing to sacrifice for Jack's sake? Jack even reminds Will of his sacrifices in the AWE script during the scene where Will's betrayal becomes aparent. Somehow, Will is going to have to choose to sacrifice something in order to be square with Jack. In that way, I think there may be some peace in their relationship.
Originally posted by savvysparrow
Well, the writers have said to look at POTC 1 as a movie in itself. They're almost considering it a separate entity from 2 and 3. However, I think you're right. Perhaps that is the true bitter sweet quality to AWE. The strengths of friendships are being tested and not withstanding the strain. If the three of them can work past their differences a little, I think that would qualify a bitter sweet ending. But if Will and Jack are permanently at odds, I would call that tragic, wouldn't you?However, that's not saying that Jack isn't still loyal to Will and in his own way, Will still loyal to Jack. There are moments when the friendship, however shaky, is still there. Not to mention, Will seems almost hell bent on making Jack admit his feelings in the script in AWE, almost as though he needs to hear the words from Jack's lips.
They make sacrifices for each other on their own terms. Jack was willing to look after Elizabeth and never say a word of his brewing attraction in POTC 1 in honor of Will. He continued to be noble in POTC 2 by staying away from Port Royal even though his attraction to Elizabeth is so bad that it's affecting the way he lives. Jack went to his death, knowing on some level that he was dying so that the crew, and more importantly Will and Elizabeth would live.
Will sacrificed his honor and nearly his life to save Jack's life in POTC 1. He was willing to be the one to go over to the Flying Dutchman to find the key for Jack, even though he didn't know the full implications of his choice. The question is, what is Will willing to sacrifice for Jack's sake? Jack even reminds Will of his sacrifices in the AWE script during the scene where Will's betrayal becomes aparent. Somehow, Will is going to have to choose to sacrifice something in order to be square with Jack. In that way, I think there may be some peace in their relationship.
Very true..I like the way you explained this....Jack does stay away from Port Royal because of his feelings for Liz...he doesn help Will find Liz despite his growing attraction toward her....he does willingly accept the Kracken in the end of DMC so that Liz and Will can be together....ah that Jack, with every thought he just gets more and more heroic....
This is from the Odyssey not the script writers..but me thinks its VERY similar to Jack..and Tia's supposed "lovers relationship in the past"
In Jungian terms, Odysseus has been ruled for years by his animus, his male self. He has denied the feminine, his anima. When we deny a significant part of our psyche, we often end up confronting it outside of ourselves, and usually, at least initially, in a negative or extreme manner.
From this viewpoint, we can view Odysseus' seven years with Calypso as seven years of feeling engulfed by his own need for dependency on the feminine - both the mother principle which forces his comes to terms with the powerless boy within who craves a mother's care, and also the inner adolescent who feels at the mercy of his sexual desires. The engulfment by Calypso expresses his own lack of control as his deeper unconscious self takes him over and possesses him. He both desires and despises the very union with the feminine he craves - despises, because within it there is no arena for his masculinity except in its most primal form.
During his stay on Calypso's isle, Odysseus is never able to fully accept his situation. His body is alive, but only in regard to sensuality. Calypso holds him so tightly in her embrace, that he is not free to embrace her in turn. And because of his unresolved grief and trauma, his heart remains closed. (he left Tia it seems)
But at the same time, Odysseus is also compelled to surrender. Only in surrender can another part of himself emerge and lead him forward once again. Only in surrender can he feel and release the deep grief he has been carrying all these years, and own the feminine energy within himself. And by the seventh year, he is ready to move into the next stage, what Houston refers to as the stage of active longing. He weeps ceaselessly, for Ithaca and for Penelope. "why is the rum always gone?" Jack wants Elizabeth badly
For Odysseus now, the male is no longer repressed or expressed in its lowest dimension. Nor does the female need anymore to be projected, or to be encountered in its most primitive manifestation. The feminine within is transformed by grief and lets go, as Calypso lets go. Odysseus awakens again to his heroic, adventuresome self. But this self has only one focus - to unite with the feminine energy in its most positive form. To go home, home to Ithaca, home to Penelope.
Even the lure of immortality cannot entrap him now. His pride, which has led him to continually prove his superhuman capabilities, is no longer his primary source of motivation. The heroic in him now is directing all his energies toward the journey toward both inner and outer home.
Now Odysseus is ready, having discovered a manhood which can confront the inner and outer waters, to face the full wrath of Poseidon's waves. Only now can he fully surrender to the sea, to the vast and powerful feminine, and be reborn. (kraken looking like a giant you know what...Posiedon/Davy..Jacks gonna come back and be READY for elizabeth)
Only then does he arrive in the land of the Phaeaicans, naked as a newborn, but able to now suppress and gain command over the sexuality which so recently dominated his existence - as he covers his private parts with a leaf. For now he meets the feminine in a virgin, youthful form. Nausicaa is an expression of his own virgin and developing anima. He treats her with dignity, grace, self-control and respect. And in honoring her, he also honors himself.
Jack is going to return differently when it comes to Elizabeth..he was already starting to treat her differently anyway. but now he will be reborn and able to fully embrace the feminine.
I like it, and I generally agree with you. When Jack does return, he treats Elizabeth very differently than he did in DMC. In the AWE script he vows to take what had happened between them to the grave and the interactions between them are based less on flirtation and have more depth....
There's little doubt in my mind that when the authors decided to kill Jack that they did so with the intention of re-inventing the character. Maybe re-inventing is the wrong word. According to the writers, they've talked extensively about whether or not Jack's character has changed, or if it's merely been revealed.
I think his character has been revealed; mainly that Jack has character, has a heart and a conscience. He has the ability to turn off his conscience and heart when the occasion calls for it, but generally, they do exist.
It's not that it hasn't always been there--over time in the Pirate world he lost his better self. (By the way, I like the Jungian comparisons! I was thinking of doing a comparison like that for the main characters in DMC, but it got to be way too long 🙂 )
If you look at all of the characters in DMC in terms of the Jungian theory, the circles that are meant to complete the psyche are all out of whack for each character--including dear William. AWE will have to achieve balance for each of the characters.
As you said, the only thing Jack has left to complete his circle to achieve balance in his character is the feminine. Although, you could argue that the shadow in his character---the subversive, trickster, betrayer self who was developed to protect his inner nature was what was causing the problem which in turn threw the other proportions out of whack. Does that make sense? I think I'll quit before the ramblings make no sense....ummm....Look, an undead monkey!
All I'm saying is that a lot of people don't understand where the Jack in AWE is coming from. They're not getting the melancholy nature, or how he's no longer outrageously flirting with Elizabeth. In short, they don't understand how it is Jack Sparrow has suddenly become vulnerable. They should understand, even from his reaction to her actions at the end of DMC that Jack will return the same man, but in my opinion, a slightly better, less morally conflicted man.
Its been revealed IMO..its a return to his old self..the one who was there before the years of being seperated from embracing the female form. Odysseus didnt always despise the female form..it happened gradually..
the 7 years of having to face up to the female..IMO is all this stuff with Calypso and Jack now starting to yearn for more in life:..Elizabeth
even the yearning for Penelope and Ithica is just like Jack yearning to go back to port Royal and be with Elizabeth (according to Ted it was pointing there)
"a lady, widowed before her marriage. A virgin too, likely as not, searching for her husband lost at sea"
You cant even be called a widow before marriage unless you were married and lost a husband before hand.
whilst Penelope is in Ithica she yearns for her husband to return to her..he is "lost at sea"
IMO..Will is Telemacus and Elizabeth treats him like a protective mother. (telemacus is actually sent to go in search of Odysseus lol) but Will actually bumps into his REAL father which i find very intersting. Its like he is being seperated from this Odyssey PotC story and has his own story on the side.
It's been revealed to you--and to me, and to every person who bothered to read the rough draft script with a little more attention, which is pretty much every one here. However, on some other boards which shall remain anonymous, they're missing that bigger picture. That was all I was saying. I hate above all the arguments against the J/E ship that people say that Jack can't change, that his first and only love is the sea. Usually when I read that, I don't even know which evidence to choose that suggests otherwise. There's what's presented to us in the script, what the writers have said, and as you've aptly pointed out, moments in ancient literature to suggest otherwise!
And I agree that his old self has returned. Elizabeth's belief that he is a good man at heart brought that out of him. Every time she mentions that he's a good man, or more importantly, when she says that she believes him, it encourages him to to act as he once would have.
Oooo---which brings to mind the scene where he trades Elizabeth to Sao Fen. Obviously, he trades her to spare his own life, and so forth. I also think he does it to keep her away from Will not only to give himself a chance with her but also to protect her. What has just occurred to me though, and this will be part of the conflict with AWE, is that though he's returned to the good man he once was, he can't let that show in the Pirate world. He'd be raked over the coals by the likes of Barbossa, Sao Fen etc...So, in order to maintain his persona, he has to follow in the precedent of behavior he'd set up for himself in the past....Wow, that gives that scene so much more depth. He'll want to prove himself to Elizabeth, but can't do so in front of the people he can't trust. Which in turn, motivates her to believe that she was wrong about who he really is....
Sorry if y'all figured that out a long time ago
Yes I agree with you in a way..but there is another similarity between oddy and Jack:
Odysseus is a combination of the self-made, self-assured man and the embodiment of the standards and mores of his culture. He is favored by the gods and respected and admired by the mortals. Even the wrath of Poseidon does not keep him from his homecoming. He is confident that he represents virtue even when a modern audience might not be so sure. He is also a living series of contradictions, a much more complicated character than we would expect to find in the stereotypical epic hero.
Odysseus, in The Odyssey, is much more complicated. He lives by his wiles as well as his courage. He is an intellectual. Often he openly evaluates a situation, demonstrating the logic he employs in making his choices. When it proves effective, Odysseus lies (even to his own family), cheats, or steals in ways that we would not expect in an epic hero. Although he is self-disciplined (refusing to eat the lotus), his curiosity is sometimes the root of his trouble (as with the Cyclops). He is willing to pay a price for knowledge; for example, he insists on hearing the Sirens’ call, even though to do so, he must have himself excruciatingly strapped to the mast of his ship so that he cannot give in to the temptation. Odysseus can be merciful, as when he spares the bard Phemius, or brutal, as he seems when dealing with the dozen disloyal maidservants. He creates his own code of conduct through his adventures.
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its interesting with that strapped to the mast of the ship to hear the sirens call. I dont think that is resisting Liz because she does it to him he doesnt request it..Its to do with makng himself embrace the feminine and throw himself into adventure I think.
"willing to pay a price for knowledge"
AHA! I think Achillies might be dear William..
Achilles himself is not a two-dimensional stereotype. He has a tragic flaw, which can best be identified as hubris (an overbearing arrogance or misguided pride) as one of several distinguishing traits. But Achilles is a simpler character. According to the myth the Homeric Greeks would have known, Achilles was given a choice by the gods to live a short, glorious life full of excitement and heroism or a long, tranquil life with little recognition or fame. Achilles, of course, chose the glorious life; therefore, he achieves a kind of immortality through valor and intense, honest devotion to a cause.