Ion vs Phoenix

Originally posted by Xplosive
I have thought about that. Mr Master (I know you are objective, even if you don't like something, you accept that) proved on panel and on Bio that it says Cosmic Cube, Beyonder, giving the full power of the Phoenix Force. Maybe PF isn't really all that much. Or maybe, it was a really shitty writing.

A Cube Being gave a being the Full power of the Phoenix Force. period.

You can spin it all you want, whatever.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Anyway, then again,
I still can't imagine Cosmic Cube defeating Phoenix Force in a battle or any Celestial defeating it.

Cube Being can grant others the Full power of the Phoenix Force.
Celestials are "many orders" above Cube Beings.

Simple effective, no?

Originally posted by Xplosive
In PF bios it was mentioned PF destroying an Alternate Universe,
and it did easily.
Although it was an Alternate Universe, it was mentioned,
because that could probably happen also in 616,
if Jean wouldn't sacrifice herself.

"What If's" are NEVER referenced in bios,
because "What If's are a joke.

nice try.

Originally posted by Xplosive
That was also the issue where Galactus said, he would defeat Phoenix, if the battle would continue (because Jean had limits because of lobotomy).

Starving Galactus lost to Phoenix in their second encounter.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Well, he didn't prove that,

Originally posted by Xplosive
then when Phoenix got all her powers back and easily destroyed everything.

Anyways, "What Ifs" 😆

Originally posted by Xplosive
And through history, Marvel looked like to stand with PF being beyond Galactus. And I think Galactus is beyond Celestials.

if Phoenix dies, a universe will lose the sustenace of its stars.
But Time & Space will remain, so will any and all cosmics who sustain their own realities,
so will all the Abstract Concepts,
so will all beings who do not rely on the stars of that universe to survive.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I can't see any Cosmic Cube even standing a chance against Phoenix Force in a battle,
if they would go all out, not even close.

Seriously if you can't accept that, write Marvel a letter and complain.

Originally posted by Xplosive
But if it wouldn't be like that, I wouldn't be surprised anymore.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And about Uatu and PF, no matter what was done,
Uatu himself gave PF beyond him.

Yes it's true, Uatau held Timeline/reality 311 withIN Time & Space with no prep.

While Phoenix needed SEVEN pages of Prep to amputate Reality15104' Future,
and then needed to shift herself into the WHR to repair it,
and yet still, needed the WHR to hold Timeline/reality 15104 in her hands.

So yea, Uatau's feat is far more impressing, but who cares at this point.

Originally posted by id369
The mere fact that, in the 616 verse: Phoenix energy is said to rival Galactus and Uatu admitting inferiority makes a strong suggestions of PF operating on higher levels then a Cosmic Cube being.

You know, you remind me of someone. hm

Originally posted by id369
Slap on the fact, that the Phoenix can pluck out an entire universe,
from the multiverse and nearly killed for not focusing.

🙂 Uatu did the same thing,
only Uatu didn't need pages of prep, and Uatu didn't damage the reality either.

In fact, the Reality was destroyed after Capatin America left that time period,
the high tribunal Watcher actually re-created the destroyed Timeline,
then gave it to Uatu as a gift.
Uatu places Reality/Timeline 311 (the year 1602 of the 616 Universe)

Originally posted by id369
Yeah I say White Phoenix of the crown is above a cosmic cube being.

POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being)
gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

........................................................................................

This is POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being) getting the credit for this.

On Panel verification:

Beyonder gives Rachel the power:

Rachel becomes the Full embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

........................................................................................

But like I said up top,
you must be right, and Marvel must be wrong. crazy

Originally posted by Sundipped
I don't see how Uatu could be implicated in any vs. match on these boards. When Malestrom instructed Deathurge to murder him he ran like a *****.

I was using Uatu's feat as reference to show how holding a Timeline is not extraordinary,
I got many examples of cats creating, restructuring and indeed destroying Timelines,
Psst and Present.

Which is interesting cause some cat thought Timelines were the real 616.

So I wonder why the 616 Reality is still around,
when Timelines situated in its Past have been erased.

Oh, and Uatu contains the Marvel Universe in his chest. 😂
........................................................................................

See how silly that shit reads.

Originally posted by Sundipped
His universe holding feat holds no weight at all.

If you dislike that fact, Marvel accepts emails (complaints)

Originally posted by Xplosive
I agree. Galactus himself actually said PF has a greater power source than him, literally.

Galactus contains a Cosmos inside him according to one of his heralds.
Galactus has already proven that he can absorb All Time & Space in the Marvel,
Galactus became the New Eternity (Multiverse) in the last Galactus story.
(it was never depicted artistically, but it was stated On Panel by the Writer.
Galactus has proven to have the right to Erase the Phoenix Force from existence,
and there's nothing anyone can do about it,
he had to make the decision to stop,
after hearing Roma's, Uatu's and Death's explaining how
the PF is essential to the universe,
like all universal Abstract Concepts are.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Then Shi'ar Empire said Dark Phoenix was a greater threat than Galactus.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Didn't they even compare DP to M'Kraan Crystal?

Originally posted by Xplosive
And we know M'Kraan could wipe all universes in existence.

Actually the Mkraan Crystal has shattered only once,
and it only took out ONE Alternate universe On Panel.

Now the bio states the Crystal is Multiversal but ... On Panel >>> Bios.

Research my friend, stop making these bogus claims.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Another comparison was in AU, when Galactus said he would win, while when Phoenix got her full powers back, he was destroyed along with everyone else like nothing, also mentioned in bios.

Sorry X, I'm tiring of your false claims.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Didn't even LT said PF power is too great of a threat for the Multiverse,
that is why PF listened to LT and leave?

The only thing that ever threatened the Multiverse in that issue,
was Sym & Madelyne Pryor,
who had used Reed & Doom to build a machine,
that would give the "Limbo Effect" access to all the Multiverse.

So what does,

"the Phoenix knows the Tribunal WILL NOT ALLOW it to return to the Planet or a Human Host, knows that much as it loves having a Human Host, no Human can long SAFELY contain the power, and though the Phoenix feels denied, it also knows that, for the sake of the Multi-verse, it must today heed"

.....................................................................................................................

This Alternate Reality/Universe
is in danger of a Human Host mis-using the Power of the Phoenix Force,
this can lead to a Mystically Unbalanced Universe,
which would threaten the Multiversal balance,

just like Strange said,

"with Earth's PLANE so Unbalanced Mystically,
due to it's convergence with Limbo ...
it is only a matter of time before the Living Tribunal arrives"
the Tribunal's role
is to ensure the Balance of the Mystic Energies in the Multi-verse,
even if it means Destroying our Planet, or our entire Universe"

.....................................................................................................................

So any Universe Mystically Unbalanced can threaten the Multi-verse,
this is what they were referring to, NOT the Phoenix Force's power directly.

Once the Phoenix Force came into the picture in this issue,
which was more than half way through, the only concern was for the Universe,

"I've got no competition for dominion over THIS Universe,
for the power of the Phoenix is here and mine"
.....................................................................................................................

NOT the Multi-verse which was ONLY threatened by Sym's and Madelyn's Limbo Effect
with help from a machine Reed and Doom built
that would Expand the Limbo Effect across the Multi-verse.

"Same Spell which cuts this Dimension off from Intervention by OUTER Dimensional Forces"

"ALSO prevents us from attaining out Ultimate Goal,
the EXTENSION of LIMBO to ALL the PLANES of the MULTI-VERSE,
Richard's and Doom's MACHINE
will MAGNIFY the Limbo Effect without opening us to OUTER Dimensional attack"

This was the Multiversal THREAT .... NOT Phoenix!

Originally posted by Xplosive
I actually think that White Phoenix of the Crown is easily above Cosmic Cube being,
like no comparison.
But I wouldn't be surprised anymore, if in the end wouldn't be like that,
but for now, I stand for that.

Originally posted by Mr Master
And? Phoenix has never defeated normal Galactus either.
Starving Galactus lost to Phoenix in their second encounter.

Yea, and Jean was engulfed too. 😬

Anyways, "What Ifs" 😆

Am, Mr Master, what is so funny?

I am talking PF being beyond Galactus. If you can read, which I think you can.
Galactus said if the fight would continue, he would win. Well, he didn't prove that when PF released its full power and destroyed Galactus along with everyone else easily.

Even if it is ''What if'', I am right here and you are not. Because he was nothing to PF, while he said he would win. In the end, he was less the an insect to PF in ''What if'' (so that battle, which you call it was a draw then became completely irrelevant), because then later, when PF was in form, Galactus was completely nothing to it.
So don't call it a draw.

And then again, you do know actually that on panel, Beyonder never gave the full PF power to Rachel, you do realize that?. He gave, and it was only mentioned on words and it actually said, that it could potentially rival the first host in power, while it was never proved, far from it.
And we know Beyonder is full of meaningless words and illusions.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Interesting, when Galactus returned to his natural state,
he became a Star made of Infinite energy.

When Galatcus says face to face PF having greater energy source, I think it must mean something, he himself placing PF beyond him. Because that is not rare with Galactus placing someone beyond him, because we know he is full of himself, since he is always saying ''Feel the power of Galactus, Feel the rage'', and common quotes, he is always giving himself on the top, but not here.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Am, Mr Master, what is so funny?

Is that all you're going to keep bringing up, "What If" scenerios?

Originally posted by Xplosive
I am talking PF being beyond Galactus. If you can read, which I think you can.
Galactus said if the fight would continue, he would win. Well, he didn't prove that when PF released its full power and destroyed Galactus along with everyone else easily.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Even if it is ''What if'', I am right here and you are not.
Because he was nothing to PF, while he said he would win.
In the end, he was less the an insect to PF in ''What if'' (so that battle, which you call it was a draw then became completely irrelevant), because then later, when PF was in form, Galactus was completely nothing to it.
So don't call it a draw.

dontgetit

Originally posted by Xplosive
And then again, you do know actually that on panel,
Beyonder never gave the full PF power to Rachel, you do realize that?.
He gave, and it was only mentioned on words and it actually said, that it could potentially rival the first host in power, while it was never proved, far from it.

The scans are in this page, don't play yourself.
If you're gonna start lying now, I'm done. 🙂

Originally posted by Xplosive
And we know Beyonder is full of meaningless words and illusions.

Nearly every feat Beyonder accomplished is Canon.

With the exception of defeating the Celestials,
creating a Universe bigger than the Multiverse
(Canon ... he created a Universe but weaker than Eternity)
possessing Millions of times the power of the combined Multiverse,
collapsing multiple universes.

That's it, everything else happened as depicted.

Including giving/granting Rachel the power of the Full Phoenix Force.
Which is still Canon even in his retcon as I PROVED!

Originally posted by Mr Master
The scans are in this page, don't play yourself.
If you're gonna start lying now, I'm done.

I really wouldn't care, if you would be done.
Tell me, where it was proven on panel that Rachel had the power of previous Phoenix or it was actually only said, potentially it could reach it (fully bonded doesn't cut it).
I think it was potentally, so in other words it could also mean, spectaculating, so actully it was never proven, that she reached it.

And then again, giving her powers and it was said ''The Primal absolutes creation and restriction are hers to command. Nothing is beyond her'', and then again, Beyonder is above PF. It really doesn't make sense, does it?.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I really wouldn't care, if you would be done.
Tell me, where it was proven on panel that Rachel had the power of previous Phoenix
or it was actually only said, potentially it could reach it (fully bonded doesn't cut it).

Originally posted by Xplosive
I think it was potentally,
so in other words it could also mean,
spectaculating, so actully it was never proven, that she reached it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And then again,
giving her powers and it was said
''The Primal absolutes creation and restriction are hers to command.
Nothing is beyond her'', and then again, Beyonder is above PF.
It really doesn't make sense, does it?.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is bull shit

Am, not, because that was literally said.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Watcher is referring to her complete Universal status/power.
It's true, the Full Phoenix Force can basically do anything at a universal scale.
(so no feat is beyond her)
Except create or remake a Universe entirely. 🙂

Cosmic Cube is not beyond Universal status and he still gave powers for Rachel nothing to be beyond her, even if it at Universal scale.
So, again, it really doesn't make sense.

And just wait the day when that will officially be retconned, CC giving power of PF.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Am, not, because that was literally said.

It clearly says,

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix"

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook 2004 - Marvel Girl bio)

"Indeed,

the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"
.................................................................................

Beyonder hypothesized that Rachel could potentially be just like Jean,
which is true as we saw the Force bond with her completely in the Excalibur arc.

You're not understanding the rest though.

"Indeed,

the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

What do you think that means?

Beyonder felt Rachel could equal Jean,
and then he goes on to prove it by giving her the Full Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Cosmic Cube is not beyond Universal status

nice.

Originally posted by Xplosive
and he still gave powers for Rachel nothing to be beyond her,
even if it at Universal scale.
So, again, it really doesn't make sense.

Fine, this isn't going anywhere, and the circles were formed pages back.

Peace and love yall. stoned

Originally posted by Xplosive
And just wait the day when that will officially be retconned, CC giving power of PF.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So you're right, and Marvel comics is wrong. Got it.

You know, you remind me of someone. hm

Well that’s how the comic places Phoenix.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Big whoopi doo,
it took Phoenix SEVEN pages of Prep to amputate reality 15104's Future,
and she still couldn't do it perfectly.
She then needed to shift herself into the WHR to repair said Future.

🙂 Uatu did the same thing,
only Uatu didn't need pages of prep, and Uatu didn't damage the reality either.

In fact, the Reality was destroyed after Capatin America left that time period,
the high tribunal Watcher actually re-created the destroyed Timeline,
then gave it to Uatu as a gift.
Uatu places Reality/Timeline 311 (the year 1602 of the 616 Universe)

Actually the amputation was done the moment she entered the WHR. And the next page it expanded to the entire universe. I would hardly label that feat with prep time.

Originally posted by Mr Master

POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being)
gave Rachel the FULL power of the embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

(excerpt from the Official Marvel Handbook [B]2004 - Marvel Girl bio)

"Beyonder once hinted
that Rachel could potentially become equal in power to the previous Phoenix.

Indeed,
the Beyonder granted Rachel the Full power that the previous Phoenix had possessed"

........................................................................................

This is POST-Retcon Beyonder (Cube Being) getting the credit for this.

On Panel verification:

Beyonder gives Rachel the power:

Rachel becomes the Full embodiment of the Phoenix Force:

........................................................................................

But like I said up top,
you must be right, and Marvel must be wrong. crazy [/B]

Beyonder granting Rachael, what was already hers.

Originally posted by id369
Well that’s how the comic places Phoenix.

In fact,
the only thing I have ever seen Phoenix do on a Universal scale,
is telepathic connection to life-forms of a Universe.

Rachel did it when that Cube Being gave her the Full power of the Phoenix Force,
and Jean did it in that Alternate Reality
when she gave the beings of that Universe a pep talk
before they all died from the Mkraan Crystal which shattered.
Also when Mastermind was struck with universal awareness.

meh, anyways, it's been entertaining.

Originally posted by id369
Actually the amputation was done the moment she entered the WHR.
And the next page it expanded to the entire universe.
I would hardly label that feat with prep time.

Seven pages she was coordinating a disinfection.
(she had to do so much Prep that X-Men died in the meantime)

It took Phoenix A LOT of TIME to amputate that Future/Timeline,
enough time that her friends were dying all around her,
including Wolverine at the hands of Sublime
while she was working on the "amputation"

..................................................................................................................

But don't take my word for it, here is Jean in her own words:

"What's happening here is a Coordinated Disinfection,
my Friends were only KEEPING YOU BUSY"

..................................................................................................................

Finally, SEVEN Pages later Phoenix finally amputates that Future.

Jean is told, "Phoenix Disinffection Successful"
..................................................................................................................

Prep ... to amputate a Timeline.
..................................................................................................................

It could be that once again the book is wrong, and you're right. 🙄

Originally posted by id369
Beyonder granting Rachael, what was already hers.

Anywho, have a nice weekend, I'm done.

Originally posted by Mr Master
[B]As a character that has never created a Universe,
has never remade a Universe,
has never affected the 616 Reality directly in any way universally,
has never been involved in a Cosmic event series (what happened to Phoenix work?)
has never destroyed a Universe (except in that - What If)

In fact,
the only thing I have ever seen Phoenix do on a Universal scale,
is telepathic connection to life-forms of a Universe.

Rachel did it when that Cube Being gave her the Full power of the Phoenix Force,
and Jean did it in that Alternate Reality
when she gave the beings of that Universe a pep talk
before they all died from the Mkraan Crystal which shattered.
Also when Mastermind was struck with universal awareness.

meh, anyways, it's been entertaining.

All this effort to show the supposed prep time? My, my aren’t you sinking low, Jean just realized what was happening, and needed to establish a link with the Phoenix to proceed with amputation.

Well based off everything Ive read...Ion takes this easily..wipes the FP from reality.

I have a question? When Beyonder granting Rachler PF powers, was he like creating a new Phoenix Force?

Originally posted by id369
To much whining and downplay.
Your post only servers to show, how frustrated you are.

Originally posted by id369
Phoenix power level are registered to be around Galactus level

Originally posted by id369
and the Watcher admits inferiority.
I would post the scans, but I am sure everyone has seen them by now.

Your only argument for Phoenix is she held a Timeline in her hands,
well Uatu did the same thing and more impressively,
and yes, we know Pheonix > Uatu,
so it proves holding a Timeline is nice but not something many,
many cats can't do effortlessly. (if a Watcher can) 😛

Originally posted by id369
All this effort to show the supposed prep time? My, my aren’t you sinking low

Btw. Stick to the debate & let's not rile up hostility. (have fun friend)

Originally posted by id369
Jean just realized what was happening,
and needed to establish a link with the Phoenix to proceed with amputation.

But On Panel,

Jean was amputating Reality 15104's Future that entire time.
It had nothing to do with any link
but that's a sweet extra you added that never existed.

meh, speculation/theories and/or bull shit aside (not you particularly)

SEVEN Pages later:

"What's happening Here, is a Coordinated Disinfection (Future amputation)
my Friends were only KEEPING YOU BUSY" (more like dying ... but anyway)

Jean: "I had to amputate the whole Future"

PF: "Phoenix Disinffection Successful"
.......................................................................................
"establish a link" huh? 🙂

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Well based off everything Ive read ...

Ion takes this easily .. wipes the FP from reality.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I have a question?
When Beyonder granting Rachler PF powers,
was he like creating a new Phoenix Force?

The power of a Cube being is simply to control and/or create
all aspects of reality on a certain scale.

The Shaper of Worlds can manipulate reality upto a Global scale.
Kubik & Kosmos/Beyonder were equal, Universal scale.
But during Post-retcon Beyonder's battle with Post-retcon Molecule Man,
reality within the UniverseS across the Prime Multiverse were warped.

Although this happened,
we know for sure that Post-retcon Beyonder on his own, is below Eternity (Multiverse)
Now MM, has the potential to surpass even Eternity, as he proved to surpass Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah, he just wished for her to have the Full power of the Phoenix Force, and she did.

I see. But if he did that, he didn't create Phoenix Force. That sound like he bonded the Phoenix Force (that already exists) to fully bond with Rachel. He wished her to have full PF powers and then he helped bond them together. It sounded like that to me, that is why he said she could potentially reach the power her mother had (like mother, so daughter alike), but in doing so, she would need to bond with PF (like her mother) and not only that, but to access its full powers.
And we know Rachel did fully bond with PF, but PF didn't allow Rachel to use its full powers.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I see. But if he did that, he didn't create Phoenix Force. That sound like he bonded the Phoenix Force (that already exists) to fully bond with Rachel. He wished her to have full PF powers and then he helped bond them together. It sounded like that to me, that is why he said she could potentially reach the power her mother had (like mother, so daughter alike), but in doing so, she would need to bond with PF (like her mother) and not only that, but to access its full powers.
And we know Rachel did fully bond with PF, but PF didn't allow Rachel to use its full powers.

You just went ahead and made up your own story which does not relate to the facts.

Beyonder gave Rachel the power, (in other words out of his own power)
he did Not bond the Force with Rachel.

In fact, in case you forgot,
in the end Beyonder wanted that power back,
because it was his:

"You are what you are (Full Power Phoenix) ... because I will it"

"You are no more use to me Phoenix, therefore, I require back what is mine"