Ion vs Phoenix

Originally posted by id369
What are you talking about, a future time line becomes a parallel reality. That it drift from a point of origin still retains its prior history. You don’t hold and say LOOK 150 year old reality. It the future from 150 years ago from Now.

This is why Uatu's 100 year old reality 311
was a Tiny Universe which he held in his hands.

This is why Jean's 150 year old reality 15104
was considered an "orphan" which "lost its Parents"
(blatantly alluding to the fact that it was also a baby ... just like Uatu's)

Or if you prefer,
we can look at it like this:

Uatu = WC Phoenix.
Actually Uatu > WC Phoenix (Uatu didn't need the WHR ... Jean did) 🙂
..........................................................................................

I prefer to just say,
I'm not going to hold all of Phoenix's cards on this cheesy feat,
cause personally I don't consider Uatu > or = to Phoenix,
but whatever you prefer friend.

Originally posted by id369
Jean held a universe held the reality its in entirety.

I agree.

Originally posted by id369
Placing so much trust in bios, the comic states that those events ware nothing more then illusions.

On Panel > Bios

On Panel + Bios > anything anyone has to say.

If the comic states it’s the universe 150 years from now. And the control of all those atoms as the Phoenix puts it, directly effects the past (150 years prior to the events). Then guess what it’s the entire history, not an isolated time line.

Originally posted by id369
If the comic states it’s the universe 150 years from now.
And the control of all those atoms as the Phoenix puts it,
directly effects the past (150 years prior to the events).

It was Scott that altered reality 15104's Future (which Jean had repaired)

Originally posted by id369
Then guess what it’s the entire history, not an isolated time line.

It only exist because Time/Space has to accommodate the existence
of these cats that don't even belong in this time period,
therefore Time/Space creates a baby Timeline to fill in the timeloop.
This is how divergences work ... senseless if you ask me.

How can full blown 616 be taking place in the Future,
while it's still taking place in the Present? noneno

Impossible.

Two separate points in history of one reality,
can not occupy the same vibrational frequency simultaneously in Marvel.

This is why Reality 15104 is well ... reality 15104 and not 616,
while 616 is well .. 616 and not 15104 and vice versa.

this is also why only X-Men exist in Here Comes Tomorrow,
and it's supposed to be 616 in the future,
where the heck is everyone else in this "Global" epidemic? 😬

Originally posted by Mr Master
this is also why only X-Men exist in Here Comes Tomorrow,
and it's supposed to be 616 in the future,
where the heck is everyone else in this "Global" epidemic? 😬

Originally posted by Creshosk
We've been over this before, simply because the other heroes aren't shown or don't show up does not mean theat they don't exist.

Can you really bring up an example where the entire 616 World was being affected,
and no other characters (besides the titled comic) appeared?
Not just some silly threat ... the entire World has to be already affected like in Here Comes Tomorrow.

I doubt it, I've tried, I can't come up with an incident.
But I'm all eyes.

Vary PIS poor excuse, the plot did not intend to be some crossover event like HoM or WWH. And frankly speaking I don’t care; if the comic states, it effected the entire world. That’s exactly what happened.

Comic>>>>What ever reasons you can muster up.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The entire World, that yall believe is future Earth-616, was affected,
and not a single other soul besides X-Men noticed.

Can you really bring up an example where the entire 616 World was being affected,
and no other characters (besides the titled comic) appeared?
Not just some silly threat ... the entire World has to be already affected like in Here Comes Tomorrow.

I doubt it, I've tried, I can't come up with an incident.
But I'm all eyes.

Just because you don't see the characters doesn't mean they don't exist.

Originally posted by id369
Vary PIS poor excuse,
the plot did not intend to be some crossover event like HoM or WWH.

Originally posted by id369
And frankly speaking I don’t care; if the comic states,
it effected the entire world. That’s exactly what happened.

Originally posted by id369
Comic>>>>What ever reasons you can muster up.

nice debate id. 🙂

Originally posted by Creshosk
[B]Commiting the ad ignorantium fallacy is a poor excuse.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Just because you don't see the characters doesn't mean they don't exist.

You may be right, but aside from that,
can you think of one.

Originally posted by Mr Master
No doubt, those arcs took place in 616, and are 100% canon to 616,
so I agree .. big difference.

Absolutely, I definitely agree it affected Planet Earth in reality 15104.
No one is arguing that.

I agree.

nice debate id. 🙂

So what did we learn kids?
Phoenix held reality 15104, which happened to be the direct future of 616. 100% proven.

Note a planet, or a solar system, but an entire universe as the comic, letter interview, and bios are stated specifically.

As to the actual debate.
Ion vs. White Phoenix of the Crown.

Mm…that’s a tough one.

*Hmm*...I'm going with Phoenix on this one...

Dark Phoenix would make Ion use the ring on himself.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree, Phoenix did hold a baby Timeline (reality 15104) in her hands just like Uatu did.

Only difference is Uatu (a Watcher) held reality 311 withIN Time & Space,
while Phoenix needed to be within the WHR to do so.

But just imagine what Cube beings are capable of
when they can grant the Full power of the Phoenix Force to others.

And then imagine Celestials when Cube beings are like nothing to them.

And the list keeps going up, up.

I enjoy clarifications myself.

Except that Watchers had been afraid of PF in a recent What if issue, they knew they would die if they would interfere.

Now, Cube beings are beyond PF, Celestial are beyond it.
When PF is mentioned, he comes to the thread to underrate PF and to to downplay PF for others, who don't know much about it and he says such things:

''But just imagine what Cube beings are capable of
when they can grant the Full power of the Phoenix Force to others.
Only difference is Uatu (a Watcher) held reality 311 within Time & Space, Actually Uatu > WC Phoenix (Uatu didn't need the WHR ... Jean In the end he comes and says that actually WPOTC didn't do anything to the 15104 reality (which actually is a future of 616)''. And so on...

Then they got the idea that Watchers are beyond PF.
But important it is, that actually Mr Master is pretty much alone on that as Uatu>WPOTC.

He actually never even said about PF with certainty that PF is beyond Xorn.
Interesting, isn't it.

He also comes and says Vulcan embarrassed PF (but we know Jean was behind actions, allowed it), but he says Jean didn't have ayhting to do with it, that Vulcan embarrassed PF.
But it was that Vulcan with PF who embarrassed Kree Empire, AW, Shi'ar Empire and embarrassed other Watchers, because they didn't even dare to interfere.

I asked him more times ''Is PF beyond PF'', he says... (he never answered, but only again posted a scan) and only once gave answer ''Perhaps'' and then again shown for a thousand time the same and what it seems a unique scan for him, scan where Xorn did to Jean what he did.

Originally posted by id369
Ah so you finally came to your senses.

So what did we learn kids?
Phoenix held reality 15104, which happened to be the direct future of 616. 100% proven.

Note a planet, or a solar system, but an entire universe as the comic, letter interview, and bios are stated specifically.

Nice, id396.
You succeeded with Mr Master, he finally came to senses. 🙂

Originally posted by id369
Placing so much trust in bios, the comic states that those events ware nothing more then illusions.

Yup, and when we are at that... Mr Master, you know, in bios it still says that PF saved all existence from damnation.

Ion is terrible. PF wins with relative ease

Originally posted by id369
Ah so you finally came to your senses.

You must've misunderstood something I posted Big Time!

I've never changed my stance, not once, so I don't know what you mean by,
"you finally came to your senses" dontgetit

Originally posted by id369
So what did we learn kids?
Phoenix held reality 15104, which happened to be the direct future of 616.
100% proven.

Uatu did the same exact thing Phoenix did with the baby Timeline Reality 311,
Uatu held 311 in his hands, Uatu even placed 311 inside himself.

This is hilarious folks,

Uatu placed the PAST of 616 (reality 311 - the year 1602) in his chest,
this means according to this argument .... the 616 Universe
(power of the Multiverse - foundation of the Omniverse)
resides withIN Uatu. 😂

Try making that stick kids.

Uhh, no.

Uatu's Reality 311, like Phoenix's Reality 15104 are both Timelines of the 616 Universe,
311 definitely represents the year 1602 ... 15104 possibly represented the year 2154.

Even though 311 definitely represented the year 1602, it was a TINY Reality,
so TINY that it was smaller than a chiken egg in Uatu's hands.

Why?

Because Time & Space had involved 100 years of natural expansion
for a Reality that never existed, in order to fill in the timeloop of the year 1602.
Because there is no "Real" year 1602 of the 616 Universe,
that year passed in the "Real" 616 centuries ago. (present 616 is 2007)

This is why it's so funny to see cats believe (not you particularly)
that a point in history (Timeline) Before or After the Present 616,
can actually be the "real" 616 in that "other" point in time.
The notion is ridiculous.

It was clearly explained in the 1602 arc,
Time & Space creates Timelines
(separate realities which represent points in history)
to substitute the Parent or "Real" Universe that connects it's possible Timelines.

So Time & Space will create a mini cosmos,
because it's not like the Multiverse can create entire Universes (naturally)
on its own in an instant,
nah, Time & Space needs Time to expand a New Reality,
and it needs Space in which to configure it in.

Originally posted by id369
Note a planet, or a solar system, but an entire universe as the comic,
letter interview, and bios are stated specifically.

Please show me the letter interview and bios that specifically state it was an entire Whole Universe.

Mr Master, do you place Uatu beyond Phoenix Force?
Do you think if the would battle, Uatu would win?

Do you think Xorn is beyond Phoenix Force?

I only want from you to answer this, please?

Phoenix for the win

Original Ion is the only one that would be even worth debating
As the date of this thread is a little misleading

Originally posted by Xplosive
Except that Watchers had been afraid of PF in a recent What if issue,
they knew they would die if they would interfere.

But still ... "What If?"
Like "What If" the Watcher was gay?

X, don't mention "What Ifs" again please.
At the very least, keep it in Alternate realities,
those diverged worlds in "What If" are almost all a silly joke.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Now, Cube beings are beyond PF, Celestial are beyond it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
When PF is mentioned, he comes to the thread to underrate PF and to to downplay PF for others, who don't know much about it and he says such things:

if you wanna be acknowledged as a serious debater,
don't get personal and just stick to the debate. 🙂

Originally posted by Xplosive
''But just imagine what Cube beings are capable of
when they can grant the Full power of the Phoenix Force to others.

Which I can prove.

Unlike your exaggerated claims of Phoenix destroying the previous Universe,
and then Phoenix creating the current Universe.
Or Phoenix is the embodiment of the Big Bang,
or Phoenix is all of creation,
or Phoenix is Omniversal or bah, blah, blah.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Only difference is Uatu (a Watcher) held reality 311 within Time & Space, Actually Uatu > WC Phoenix (Uatu didn't need the WHR ... Jean did)

And I never seriously claimed Uatu > Phoenix.
It's called sarcasm,
sarcasm aimed at the "holding a Timeline in the hands" feat.

I mean if that's what some are using as Phoenix's claim to fame,'
and Uatu (a Watcher) can do the SAME exact thing without needing the WHR,
what does that tell ya?

Uatu > Phoenix ... or Uatu = Phoenix ... at the very least.

Of course I don't believe this,
cause I know what a Timeline really is.

Originally posted by Xplosive
In the end he comes and says that actually WPOTC didn't do anything to the 15104 reality (which actually is a future of 616)''. And so on...

Many, MANY Pasts and possible Futures.

Or were you under the impression that 15104 was the only pssoble Future? ❌

Originally posted by Xplosive
Then they got the idea that Watchers are beyond PF.
But important it is, that actually Mr Master is pretty much alone on that as Uatu>WPOTC.

Be thorough dogs, I really dislike having someone try and quote what I said,
and then twist the meaning of said quotes.
Review the debate before posting again friend.

Originally posted by Xplosive
He actually never even said about PF with certainty that PF is beyond Xorn.
Interesting, isn't it.

Originally posted by Xplosive
He also comes and says Vulcan embarrassed PF (but we know Jean was behind actions, allowed it), but he says Jean didn't have ayhting to do with it, that Vulcan embarrassed PF.
But it was that Vulcan with PF who embarrassed Kree Empire, AW, Shi'ar Empire and embarrassed other Watchers, because they didn't even dare to interfere.

Due to his negative emotions,
Vulcan began to lose control of the Force he had become,
that's when Jean re-gains control of the Force,
then Jean saves Vulcan and her soliloquy is expressed.

I challenge you to present any kind of proof that states that Jean was allowing Vulcan,
or that Jean had anything to do with Vulcan ram sacking the WHR,
killing all the avatars, and becoming the Force.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I asked him more times ''Is PF beyond PF'', he says... (he never answered, but only again posted a scan) and only once gave answer ''Perhaps''

Is that a trick question?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Nice, id396.
You succeeded with Mr Master, he finally came to senses.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yup, and when we are at that...
Mr Master, you know, in bios it still says that PF saved all existence from damnation.

On Panel + Bio >>> anything anyone has to say.

Ah no progression? what a disappointment.

Comic states, Jean held the Universe. And the future is now (reality 15104), and yet she was able to effect the past (616 reality, before the events that lead to Here Comes Tomorrow).

Originally posted by id369
Ah no progression? what a disappointment.

Originally posted by id369
Comic states, Jean held the Universe.

Originally posted by id369
And the future is now (reality 15104),

Heck, Korvac re-created that possible 616 Future over 72 times on panel withIN reality.

He didn't need to travel to the past & mind rape anyone (like Jean did to Scott)
No.
Korvac simply wished it, and his possible Future Timeline was re-structured in an instant.
..................................................................................
That's what re-arranging a Universal Timeline under your own power is really like.

Originally posted by id369
and yet she was able to effect the past
(616 reality, before the events that lead to Here Comes Tomorrow).

Phoenix affected Scott, and that altered reality 15104's Future, nothing more.
The power to alter reality was in Scotts decision, and no where else.
(Jean forced Scott to make that decision ... that is all)
...................................................................................

You also seemed to ignore this:

Originally posted by Mr Master
Uatu did the same exact thing Phoenix did with the baby Timeline Reality 311,
Uatu held 311 in his hands, Uatu even placed 311 inside himself.

This is hilarious folks,

Uatu placed the PAST of 616 (reality 311 - the year 1602) in his chest,
this means according to this argument .... the 616 Universe
(power of the Multiverse - foundation of the Omniverse)
resides withIN Uatu. 😂

Try making that stick.