Elaine/Lucifer/Michael vs. Thanos w/ THOTU

Well they all have Free Will LU. Everything is goes by the Plan and Yahweh/The Presence will make sure it goes that way. Remember when Lucifer left Hell? A part of the plan was a need for Hell and he made sure Hell returned when he sent Remiel and Duma to rule there. When God talked about being Eternal and forever he wasn't joking.

This is how religion works, even in the DC/Vertigo Universe's. The only thing (we know about) The Presence leaving out of the plan was not knowing who would be the 1 to rule after he left creation. God wanted to understand Lucifer better, thats why he wanted Lucifer to rejoin with him. Gods not going to make Luci do something if he really doesn't want to. Luci said "What you're describing sounds like Death to me." The Presence then corrected him "No, Samael. This would be Life. Life being what Arises when the self throws down its barricades and lets the world break in."

About the battle. Michael/Elaine/Lucifer wins.

Putting Micheal and Lucifer together equates to a match for Thanos and then chucking elaine in the mix my gosh now it gets interesting, i cant really decide on this one it would be an interesting fight.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If it was all part of "The Plan" then none of the characters had free will...

Also that's bullshit, because in the last issue of Lucifer, Yahweh wanted Lucifer to accept his gift...to trade experiences, and Lucifer declined..

Yeah, let me guess...that was part of his plan 2, right ? 🙄

Did you happen to actually read the issue? You wouldn't be asking a question like this, had you... or maybe, you know..... I dunno. But it's kind of uncalled for to get smart when I'm simply trying explaining things to my friend Mr Master here. Especially when none of it was out of context or off base.

Lucifer has the WILL of Yahweh. Yet he is a creation of Yahweh, the only creation, due to that will, that was able to escape his purpose in The Plan. Although he could never truly escape The Plan entirely, he escaped his position and purpose and flew off into the void... still a creation of Yawhew, so whever he goes, Yahweh expands.

Originally posted by kevdude
Well they all have Free Will LU. Everything is goes by the Plan and Yahweh/The Presence will make sure it goes that way. Remember when Lucifer left Hell? A part of the plan was a need for Hell and he made sure Hell returned when he sent Remiel and Duma to rule there. When God talked about being Eternal and forever he wasn't joking.

This is how religion works, even in the DC/Vertigo Universe's. The only thing (we know about) The Presence leaving out of the plan was not knowing who would be the 1 to rule after he left creation. God wanted to understand Lucifer better, thats why he wanted Lucifer to rejoin with him. Gods not going to make Luci do something if he really doesn't want to. Luci said "What you're describing sounds like Death to me." The Presence then corrected him "No, Samael. This would be Life. Life being what Arises when the self throws down its barricades and lets the world break in."

About the battle. Michael/Elaine/Lucifer wins.

Originally posted by kevdude
Well they all have Free Will LU. Everything is goes by the Plan and Yahweh/The Presence will make sure it goes that way. Remember when Lucifer left Hell? A part of the plan was a need for Hell and he made sure Hell returned when he sent Remiel and Duma to rule there. When God talked about being Eternal and forever he wasn't joking.

Yes, and Duma had Remiel relinquish his rule of Hell, and hand it over to Christopher Rudd....was that also part of Yahweh's plan ?

Christopher Rudd argued that Hell itself is the only true sin, a "Sin" that Yahweh himself committed.

There was NO NEED FOR HELL what part of that don't you get ??? Remiel was an ANTAGONIST, NOT A HERO !

Duma and Christopher Rudd, ALONG with ELAINE proposed strongly that HELL WAS UNNECESSARY...yet who created Hell?

Yahweh did my dear....

Even Lucifer was sick of ruling Hell for 10 Billion Years....

I know they have free will, but not everything goes according to Yahweh's plan. He is infinite and eternal, i never argued against that, but he is NOT complete, he is NOT flawless, and he even WELCOMED CHANGE into his being.

In the last issue when he asked Lucifer to trade experiences, so they they may both evolve into two new beings, Yahweh already confirmed HIMSELF that he is incomplete and capable of further change.

Originally posted by kevdude
This is how religion works, even in the DC/Vertigo Universe's. The only thing (we know about) The Presence leaving out of the plan was not knowing who would be the 1 to rule after he left creation. God wanted to understand Lucifer better, thats why he wanted Lucifer to rejoin with him. Gods not going to make Luci do something if he really doesn't want to. Luci said "What you're describing sounds like Death to me." The Presence then corrected him "No, Samael. This would be Life. Life being what Arises when the self throws down its barricades and lets the world break in."

I read that already.....

This is how religion works is a non-argument, as religion has nothing to do with this....what part of that don't you f*cking get? The Lucifer series goes against religious and traditional stereotypes of Lucifer and God, and challenges every aspect of it, as well as using the Bible and other religions as the MYTHOLOGY to amplify its entertainment value....

Regardless of Yahweh's quote, Lucifer STILL DENIED, and that went AGAINST Yahweh's desires.

Try to convince me that it 2, was part of Yahweh's plan 🙄

You have no panel proof for that assertion, you and Juntai only have your own religious bias to confirm that, and please...adding your own religious bias into this is getting reallly tiring already....

Originally posted by kevdude
About the battle. Michael/Elaine/Lucifer wins.

Okay, and how so ? And please no "Well my God always wins argument" 🙄

Originally posted by Juntai
What makes you think Free Will wasn't calculated in The Plan?
Does your understanding of the Lucifer series only encompass a couple scans in the respect thread and the final issue?

1) Free Will and Destiny cannot coexist in the same reality...for they contradict each other's existance.

Yahweh's plan is "destiny" while free will is something else all together...

As I already stated in previous argument, events happened that displeased Yahweh. Hell, Yahweh himself even admitted that he created "practice" universes before he created the one that the series takes place in...

He runs by trial and error, and his "plan" does not always fold out the way he desires.

2) FYI, I own 3 Lucifer Graphic novels, the final issue, 8 other issues, and i do my research.

Originally posted by Juntai
Did you happen to actually read the issue? You wouldn't be asking a question like this, had you... or maybe, you know..... I dunno. But it's kind of uncalled for to get smart when I'm simply trying explaining things to my friend Mr Master here. Especially when none of it was out of context or off base.

I did read the issue in it's entirely, read my last post, you will see. 😉

Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer has the WILL of Yahweh. Yet he is a creation of Yahweh, the only creation, due to that will, that was able to escape his purpose in The Plan. Although he could never truly escape The Plan entirely, he escaped his position and purpose and flew off into the void... still a creation of Yawhew, so whever he goes, Yahweh expands.

I understand that Yahweh is infinite and almighty...i never argued against THAT...

However, Lucifer, on panel denied any trade with Yahweh....and Yahweh DESIRED him to accept, but it didn't happen.

That didn't go according to Yahweh's plan, and that is the point.

Lucifer was not the only one to defy Yahweh....Elaine had as well.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Urizen made an arguement towards the imperfection of that Vertigo God

I just want to add my two cents in, at the end of the lucifer series, even though it doesnt say it in plain text (it leaves it open for interpretation) I believe Michael went on with the Creator and left creation behind as well.

I see vertigo a perhaps a sub-reality of DC, almost like a dream in which Michael and Lucifer were being taught and trained, growing to maturity.

Because at the very end Lucifer choses not to become everything that god is and in return god becomes everything that lucifer is, ala defiiance, deniance, yaweh could have easily made lucifer chose yes or just given himself what lucifer had, it wasn't a matter of gain but the focus and importance was the choice lucifer made which was yes or no.

Michael on the other hand (quite literarly) dissaperes, I believe he finally understood all as well but in a different way that lucifer did. Lucifer had the will to understand and be set free, Michael through power melded with dc's god and became free.

Does anyone understand what I am saying?

P.S. vertigo's god (yaweh) also states in one of the issues, I dont remember which, that all is according to the plan, he specifically mentions Lucifer's free will has been all part of the plan, such as his rebellion and his defiance, wanting to be away from destiny, but even though he could go as far as he wanted he was always part of the plan because that is what yaweh had purposed him to do.

The only one that "it will go as planed" for is Thanos.
Becuase here he's God.

As I got it, Michael got a taste, a portion of Yewhew's power.
And Lucifer a portion of his intelligence.

Of course Yehew could easiley take those powers back if he wanted.
So could Thanos w/ Heart, because he's also God.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The only one that "it will go as planed" for is Thanos.
Becuase here he's God.

As I got it, Michael got a taste, a portion of Yewhew's power.
And Lucifer a portion of his intelligence.

Of course Yehew could easiley take those powers back if he wanted.
So could Thanos w/ Heart, because he's also God.

Originally posted by Galan777
You Refer to Thanos as if he were God, Remember Thanos had TOAA's power but not his omniscents.......... and how is someone with TOAA's power going to take away power from lucifer/michael when they are in a different continuity? It dosent make sense, and that logic wont work

God can easiley remove what he have created with his powers.
A good example is Thanos absorbing a omnipotent being like the Living Tribunal like he was nothing - "The top of the foodchain".

So obviously he would be able to absorb the second most powerful beings in Vertigo as well as nothing.

Yawhew is the only being in DC that would possibly stalemate Thanos.
I mean he can't beat him because they are on the same level, intelligence is not a factor here.

If you say that TOAA is the writer, and Thanos had the same power, than Yawhew, Presence and the rest would be shit compared to him.

Beyonder also had the power of the writers 😄

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
events happened that displeased Yahweh. Hell, Yahweh himself even admitted that he created "practice" universes before he created the one that the series takes place in...

However, Lucifer, on [b]panel denied any trade with Yahweh....and Yahweh DESIRED him to accept, but it didn't happen.

That didn't go according to Yahweh's plan, and that is the point. [/B]

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I know they have free will, but not everything goes according to Yahweh's plan. He is infinite and eternal, i never argued against that, but he is NOT complete, he is NOT flawless, and he even WELCOMED [b]CHANGE into his being.

In the last issue when he asked Lucifer to trade experiences, so they they may both evolve into two new beings, Yahweh already confirmed HIMSELF that he is incomplete and capable of further change. [/B]

LU is making strong points here, this is evidence of fallibility.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Correction: Omniscients not omniscent

God can easiley remove what he have created with his powers.
A good example is Thanos absorbing a omnipotent being like the Living Tribunal like he was nothing - "The top of the foodchain".

So obviously he would be able to absorb the second most powerful beings in Vertigo as well as nothing.

Yawhew is the only being in DC that would possibly stalemate Thanos.
I mean he can't beat him because they are on the same level, intelligence is not a factor here.

If you say that TOAA is the writer, and Thanos had the same power, than Yawhew, Presence and the rest would be shit compared to him.

Beyonder also had the power of the writers 😄

Originally posted by Galan777
Your missing the point, TOAA is from Marvel, God/Yahweh is from DC, it is rediculous to say that Marvel's TOAA could take the power away from michael and lucifer who are under a completely different God in a completely different comic continuity.

It is equally rediculous to say that Lucifer and Micheal can somehow beat Thanos with HOTU when he is practically TOAA's equal in raw power...

It goes both ways....this debate is under the automatic assumption that one contiunuity can affect the other...

Otherwise, no debate would be possible.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is equally rediculous to say that Lucifer and Micheal can somehow beat Thanos with HOTU when he is practically TOAA's equal in raw power...

It goes both ways....this debate is under the automatic assumption that one contiunuity can affect the other...

Otherwise, no debate would be possible.

Thanos HOTU ftw

Originally posted by Galan777
When did i say the duo would beat Thanos THOTU? I simply said that he couldnt take their powers away as Yahweh could....

He wouldn't have to....he can just erase them. Or absorb them...or turn them into toilet paper....

Thanos with HOTU is way too powerful....Marvel wins this unfairly, because you're putting Thanos with HOTU and Living Tribunal against Mike and Luke, and the brothers have a very small chance of beating them both....

Spectre is a non factor since Thanos with HOTU can easily easily destroy him the way he absorbed LT

Adam Warlock with IG may be defeatable by the brothers...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
He wouldn't have to....he can just erase them. Or absorb them...or turn them into toilet paper....

Thanos with HOTU is way too powerful....Marvel wins this unfairly, because you're putting Thanos with HOTU and Living Tribunal against Mike and Luke, and the brothers have a very small chance of beating them both....

Spectre is a non factor since Thanos with HOTU can easily easily destroy him the way he absorbed LT

Adam Warlock with IG may be defeatable by the brothers...

Originally posted by Galan777
but he never took power away from any being in the series, so we cant just assume he would be able to do this to the other team without him ever doing it on pannel,

Well if you think about it friend,

Absorb: means, take in or soak up (energy...amongst other things)

So he actually did take LT's power along with everyone elses.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Well if you think about it friend,

Absorb: means, take in or soak up (energy...amongst other things)

So he actually did take LT's power along with everyone elses.