Originally posted by Lord UrizenHowever, what you're arguing there is fruitless, I already explained, and it was explained in the issue, being why I question you if you actually read it... that Lucifer has the will and power of Yahweh, the WILL allowed him to be the only being to ever truly defy Yahweh[although many think they have], and Yahweh specifically describes this in the issue. Speaking of how Samael escaped his purpose in The Plan, and eventually the entire Plan itself.
I understand that Yahweh is infinite and almighty...i never argued against THAT...However, Lucifer, [b]on panel
denied any trade with Yahweh....and Yahweh DESIRED him to accept, but it didn't happen.That didn't go according to Yahweh's plan, and that is the point.
Lucifer was not the only one to defy Yahweh....Elaine had as well. [/B]
I read that already.....Wtf?This is how religion works is a non-argument, as religion has nothing to do with this....what part of that don't you f*cking get? The Lucifer series goes against religious and traditional stereotypes of Lucifer and God, and challenges every aspect of it, as well as using the Bible and other religions as the MYTHOLOGY to amplify its entertainment value....
Regardless of Yahweh's quote, Lucifer STILL DENIED, and that went AGAINST Yahweh's desires.
Try to convince me that it 2, was part of Yahweh's plan
You have no panel proof for that assertion, you and Juntai only have your own religious bias to confirm that, and please...adding your own religious bias into this is getting reallly tiring already....
Lucifer was created, and imparted with Yahweh's own infinite will. On a mental and will level, Yahweh created a being that could eventually be his equal in those aspects, as he didn't give him a lesser portion, he gave the INFINITE to his creation.
Yahweh wanted to merge with Lucifer and the infinite mind and will that he imparted to him, so he could see how everything looked from his point of view, having an infinite will, but not being infinite himself... What he thought of his struggles, his father, etc.... Yahweh could have just done the act, and no one could have said otherwise, but he let his son make that choice, and the son defied the father. Just as Yahweh created him with the ability to do.
I don't see any falibility in what was shown in Lucifer, having read & own the whole series.
Originally posted by Juntai
However, what you're arguing there is fruitless, I already explained, and it was explained in the issue, being why I question you if you actually read it... that Lucifer has the will and power of Yahweh, the WILL allowed him to be the only being to ever truly defy Yahweh[although many think they have], and Yahweh specifically describes this in the issue. Speaking of how Samael escaped his purpose in The Plan, and eventually the entire Plan itself.
Keyword Juntai: Escaped his purpose in the plan. I am already aware of the fact that Lucifer is the only person who truly has a stand of genuine defiance against Yahweh..the simple rejection of Yahweh's offer was obvious enough.
Yahweh did not want him to reject but take....
This is what you don't get...
Yahweh's "plan" or Yahweh himself is subject to change. He created Hell only to have it destroyed later. Lucifer ruled Hell for 10 Billion Years, and grew tired of it.
Just because all else goes according to "Yahweh's plan" does not make him perfect by any means what-so-ever. In fact, that was practically the gist of the series...Lucifer's defiance of Yahweh was a push and pull of "Yahweh is flawed, yet he is in charge of all existence"
Yahweh displays human characteristics....now, I know you will argue "but by comic book logic, Yahweh is perfect"..it matters not, because by ACTUAL LOGIC he is flawed...Comic book logic means nothing in this case, because he is not truly perfect...he was created by human writers, he has scripted out conflict (every battle was part of his "plan"😉
He is not a complete being, he welcomed Change when he offered Lucifer the exchange of experiences.
Originally posted by Juntai
Wtf?
Okay, let me clarify. Three ABSURD arguments you have made in the past:
1) Lucifer Morningstar is evil because the Bible says he is...
2) The Lawbringers from NEGATION are not evil, because they are serving thier God Charon 🙄
3) Lucifer is evil because he defies God (even though Yahweh planned every single conflict and suffering that did not center around Lucifer)
Oh wait, and I almost forgot...the worst argument you ever made:
"God works in mysterious ways" 😆
Like that's gonna cut it in a debate...
Originally posted by Juntai
Lucifer was created, and imparted with Yahweh's own infinite will. On a mental and will level, Yahweh created a being that could eventually be his equal in those aspects, as he didn't give him a lesser portion, he gave the INFINITE to his creation.
I know this already...that is why Lucifer was virtually unstoppable and extremely intelligent..
Let me ask you: Do you think Lucifer is flawed?
Do you understand that he is still an EXTENSION of Yahweh?
😱 What does THAT MEAN ?!?!?! Yahweh has A FLAW....
Originally posted by Juntai
Yahweh wanted to merge with Lucifer and the infinite mind and will that he imparted to him, so he could see how everything looked from his point of view, having an infinite will, but not being infinite himself... What he thought of his struggles, his father, etc.... Yahweh could have just done the act, and no one could have said otherwise, but he let his son make that choice, and the son defied the father. Just as Yahweh created him with the ability to do.
Regardless an event went against Yahweh's original intent. Yahweh was shaped by forces external to himself...if he was truly perfect, he'd already be complete and not been formed from any external forces....
Originally posted by Juntai
I don't see any falibility in what was shown in Lucifer, having read & own the whole series.
1) The very fact that Yahweh created Hell shows a major flaw in his character: Having his own creations being tortured for billions of years because they defied him....I'd expect you not to see this as a flaw, since your a religious dude and you beleive that Hell is just...
2) Yahweh created "Practice" Universes before he created the mainstream one in Lucifer....enough said....
WHY are you still debating ?
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Man . . . Lord Urizen, you're good.
You can find flaws in peoples statements easiley.
And you question them as well.Like a genius thinks five steps ahead.
Are you some kind of scientist?
Thanks a lot man...I am still waiting for Juntai to counter my argument...it's been over 24 hours already....
I haven't responded because I didn't see it, and the fact it's circular, much like all of your arguements. You're going back to things I've covered already, even in other threads. I'm not going to keep explaining it to you.
I know this already...that is why Lucifer was virtually unstoppable and extremely intelligent..Irrelivent. Lucifer wasn't made to be perfect. He was made even with a form, something Yahweh does not have unless he chooses to. In his natural state, he is beyond all comprehension.Let me ask you: Do you think Lucifer is flawed?
Do you understand that he is still an EXTENSION of Yahweh?
What does THAT MEAN ?!?!?! Yahweh has A FLAW....
Regardless an event went against Yahweh's original intent.Yahweh created Lucifer with the capacity to do so. If you purposely cut a hole in a side of bottle of water, and then water leaks out of the hole, it doesn't mean your project was a failure. You got the desired results.
Originally posted by Juntai
I haven't responded because I didn't see it, and the fact it's circular, much like all of your arguements. You're going back to things I've covered already, even in other threads. I'm not going to keep explaining it to you.Irrelivent. Lucifer wasn't made to be perfect. He was made even with a form, something Yahweh does not have unless he chooses to. In his natural state, he is beyond all comprehension.
Yahweh created Lucifer with the capacity to do so. If you purposely cut a hole in a side of bottle of water, and then water leaks out of the hole, it doesn't mean your project was a failure. You got the desired results.
I think Juanti is bang on accurate with his argument in this thread.
Originally posted by Juntai
I haven't responded because I didn't see it, and the fact it's circular, much like all of your arguements. You're going back to things I've covered already, even in other threads. I'm not going to keep explaining it to you.
Originally posted by Juntai
Irrelivent. Lucifer wasn't made to be perfect. He was made even with a form, something Yahweh does not have unless he chooses to. In his natural state, he is beyond all comprehension.
So Yahweh made himself imperfect....o0o0o that changes everything 😆
Originally posted by Juntai
Yahweh created Lucifer with the capacity to do so. If you purposely cut a hole in a side of bottle of water, and then water leaks out of the hole, it doesn't mean your project was a failure. You got the desired results.
Regardless, Lucifer is an extension of Yahweh, he himself has many flaws, and Yahweh himself has total flaws. You have not addressed this....
Yahweh created Hell...
Yahweh created "practice" universes...
The evidense goes against you. Deny or Ignore it all you want, it shows what kind of debator you are.
Originally posted by Lord UrizenHow does the creation of Hell show imperfection?
So Yahweh made himself imperfect....o0o0o that changes everything 😆Regardless, Lucifer is an extension of Yahweh, he himself has many flaws, and Yahweh himself has total flaws. You have not addressed this....
Yahweh created Hell...
Yahweh created "practice" universes...
The evidense goes against you. Deny or Ignore it all you want, it shows what kind of debator you are.
It is merely the farthest point from the premum mobile.
Souls are sentenced to this place on their own volition, because they feel they don't deserve heaven.
Yahweh has many multiverses. As in the final issue, Lucifer is shown flying out of creation, infinitely overlapping. Then it switches perspective to one. Then he looks across, and see's a sea of others just like the one his selves, plural, flew out of.
Which are the practice ones?.
Originally posted by King KandyThanos with HOTU would probably win, Elaine is only lord over a single multiverse, as far as I can tell. It doesn't really detail anything about the others, just that Yahweh gave her that one. But when Lucifer left, he saw an infinity of others. If he indeed gave her dominion over all that is, she is indeed as powerful by herself.
Juntai, do you think that THOTU thanos will lose? Or are you just making the argument that they would put up a better fight?
Originally posted by King Kandy
Juntai, do you think that THOTU thanos will lose? Or are you just making the argument that they would put up a better fight?
But the it's a battle and the only thing you are supose to do is explain who and why he/she/it will win.
To explain how good they would do is a little far fetched.
do you people have to get into a religious argument over these made up supposidly omnipatent characters PRESANCE WAS CREATED BY EXTERNAL FORCES, AND BEYONDER HAD THE POWER OF THE WRIGHTERS SO HE WAS PROBABLY GREATER THEN TOAA, AND THANOS EXPENDED ALL HIS POWER THATS WHY TOAA LET HIM HAVE IT SO HE WOULD LET THANOS DIE INSTEAD OF HIMSELF.
Originally posted by Mider999
do you people have to get into a religious argument over these made up supposidly omnipatent characters PRESANCE WAS CREATED BY EXTERNAL FORCES, AND BEYONDER HAD THE POWER OF THE WRIGHTERS SO HE WAS PROBABLY GREATER THEN TOAA, AND THANOS EXPENDED ALL HIS POWER THATS WHY TOAA LET HIM HAVE IT SO HE WOULD LET THANOS DIE INSTEAD OF HIMSELF.
Ask Juntai, as that becomes the basis for most of his arguments, and he doesn't realize that it takes away from the validity of his points.