Originally posted by Lightsnake
Invented? The thought Bomb was suicidal by nature and apparently an ancient Sith ritual, rather than just a technique....Revan as a Jedi was apparently stronger than Revan as a Sith, and we know Yoda was above him there thanks to the rOTs novelization
Does the novelization call Yoda the strongest Jedi? If so where? And Revan was probably the #2 sith and top 5 Jedi..
in all fairness in GL explaining EP3, he says that at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful, he just doesn't have that much experience. So with that said, it could mean that he has more power than Yoda. Im talking Raw power, not refined and attuned, which some of you might say doesn't mean anything then, but it shows that Yoda isnt the absolute best Jedi ever. Although I'm not saying that Revan is automatically above him. You have to think though, fights in the movies are just plain different then fights in EU. EU isnt as bound by certain restrictions as the movies are. Like if Anakin just started flying around like Neo does, we'd be like thats effin stupid, but if someone flies in the EU, we would most likely be like, wow-he's uber powerful. See what I mean? I dunno it makes sense to me, lol...just dont know if i typed out my thoughts well enough.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
in all fairness in GL explaining EP3, he says that at the time of ROTS, Anakin is the most powerful, he just doesn't have that much experience. So with that said, it could mean that he has more power than Yoda. Im talking Raw power, not refined and attuned, which some of you might say doesn't mean anything then, but it shows that Yoda isnt the absolute best Jedi ever. Although I'm not saying that Revan is automatically above him. You have to think though, fights in the movies are just plain different then fights in EU. EU isnt as bound by certain restrictions as the movies are. Like if Anakin just started flying around like Neo does, we'd be like thats effin stupid, but if someone flies in the EU, we would most likely be like, wow-he's uber powerful. See what I mean? I dunno it makes sense to me, lol...just dont know if i typed out my thoughts well enough.
No no, that would be pretty stupid too
Originally posted by Lightsnake
....I think 'Anti-Malak' and 'Pro-anakin' was rather self-explanatory
Either way, even if acknowledge Dooku as Malak's equal, that grants Anakin the edge still.
You assume because Anakin is > Dooku, then Anakin > Malak? I don't agree due to the facts presented below:
1) The fundamental reason Anakin beat Dooku is because his Djem So style (that he is apparently focused on) works well against Makashi (Dooku's form). The ROTS novelization mentioned something about Makashi not having enough kinetic energy to stand against the other style. Since Malak does not use Makashi (he has his own unique lightsaber form incorporating a larger saber) then I doubt Anakin will win against the second best duelist of KOTOR.
2) With the "advent" (no pun intended Motoko) of POD we learn how much the two Sith really learned about ancient Sith magic. I don't think Anakin is well trained in the arts of defending against such abilities.
For more go to the ROTS Anakin versus Darth Malak thread. I have let down some proofs that work out Darth Malak being at least on par with ROTS Anakin.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Invented? The thought Bomb was suicidal by nature and apparently an ancient Sith ritual, rather than just a technique....Revan as a Jedi was apparently stronger than Revan as a Sith, and we know Yoda was above him there thanks to the rOTs novelization
I'd say that information is retconned (and should be) thanks to PoD. Revan before that was believed to know zero techniques in sith magic, but now we have first hand proof of his devastating abilities.
Didn't you agree that Revan is stronger than ROTS Sids, but not the DE incarnation? I agree that Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord (due to his unique force storm ability) but I don't think he achieved that title by ROTS.
1. Makashi is specifically designed to counter saber to saber combat. Anakin using his form to exploit a weakness in no way makes
And Malak 'has his own unique style?' Does everyone whose style can't be placed use a unique style? Seems Malak uses Makashi actually...one handed, pretty elegant if you watch his attacks..
and ok, he used a long saber, SO? Yoda used a short one, big freaking deal.
And when did Malak use ancient Sith magic against Revan when it would've, y'know, saved his ass? Anakin was only trained in a time when they realized the Sith were back, YEAH he'd be trained against that.
Malak has done absolutely nothing to put him in an elite corps on one of the best duelists on the PT era
2. Nope, the info wasn't retconned. Revan knew it, where'd he get it from? And the Thought Bomb is still a RITUAL....and suicidal.
And apparently LFL seems to think Palpatine was the strongest by ROTs thanks to approving the NEC...and no, I never called Revan stronger than Palpatine. by TPM, Palpatine is already stronger than Bane according to the DSB...strongest Sith in over a millenia and the strongest Bane's order produced.
And we also have proof of Palpatine's devastating abilities by ROTS...he learned diorectly from the Ancients, recall
Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Makashi is specifically designed to counter saber to saber combat. Anakin using his form to exploit a weakness in no way makes
And Malak 'has his own unique style?' Does everyone whose style can't be placed use a unique style? Seems Malak uses Makashi actually...one handed, pretty elegant if you watch his attacks..
and ok, he used a long saber, SO? Yoda used a short one, big freaking deal.
And when did Malak use ancient Sith magic against Revan when it would've, y'know, saved his ass? Anakin was only trained in a time when they realized the Sith were back, YEAH he'd be trained against that.
Malak has done absolutely nothing to put him in an elite corps on one of the best duelists on the PT era
I wasn't aware Malak knew much of the Dark Side, hence why he never tried to kill Revan himself
1. Makashi is specifically designed to counter saber to saber combat.
For most, but not all.
Facts state that this dueling form is utterly useless against Djem So.
And Malak 'has his own unique style?' Does everyone whose style can't be placed use a unique style? Seems Malak uses Makashi actually...one handed, pretty elegant if you watch his attacks..
Actually if we had to hazard a guess, I would have to say some strange mixture of Djem So and Ataru. Ataru because in his animations he seems to being leaping when he does swipes. Djem So because according to PoD, those of greater physical builds are taught to use Djem So to maximize their assets.
and ok, he used a long saber, SO? Yoda used a short one, big freaking deal.
I wasn't making a big deal about it... I was just stating that if anything his style is unique, and since it isn't specifically Makashi, Anakin's Djem So does not have the same advantage as it had with Dooku.
And when did Malak use ancient Sith magic against Revan when it would've, y'know, saved his ass?
Anakin was only trained in a time when they realized the Sith were back, YEAH he'd be trained against that.
Proof that he was? Hell, Anakin never fought anyone who used Sith magics. Dooku? Force ligthning and lightsaber all the way baby! Assaj Ventress? No.
-He was stated to be the second best duelist of his time (aside from Revan.)
-Defeated the best duelist of his order
If that were true, they'd send Agen Kolar after Dooku and be done with it. The form doesn't equal victory.
Dooku leaps too, so? And Mace used Juyo and was rather physical. Anakin's skill gives him the advantage not the form.
And it's not an equal assumption Anakin would know to counter Sith magic since he was trained when the Jedi knew they were back? And
Dooku was the second top Dark side-probably Jedi- duelist of his time and defeated numerous other strong opponents, including Mace.
So?
Originally posted by zephiel7
Facts state that this dueling form is utterly useless against Djem So.
Actually, if you'd get your facts straight instead of turning them upside down to fit your argument, then you'd realize that Dooku's Makashi didn't generate enough kinetic energy to meet Djem So head-on. This isn't to say that Dooku cannot tool Djem So users, or that it makes the form "utterly useless" (considering Makashi doesn't even meet the opposition head-on for the most part).
We know that Sora Bulq is a Vaapad practitioner and master - a fine one at that. Yet Dooku beat the bloody shit out of Sora while defending against Tholme as well. That alone has no relevance until you bring up what the Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 article on lightsaber forms says about Vaapad:
"Form VII employs bold, direct movements, more open and kinetic than Form V but not so elaborate in appearance as Form IV."
-- Star Wars Insider, Issue 62.
This would indicate that Makashi is, indeed, not utterly useless, but may produce a minor setback, because as noted, Dooku tooled Sora:
Who seems to use the form that generates more kinetic energy than Djem So. Plus, Makashi does not usually meet another lightsaber form "head-on", so to speak. They usually counter with parries, ripostes, etc. to expend less energy, and then pwn the opposition when they tire out. Unless, of course, the form is being wielded by an utter joke.
By this we can gauge that Anakin's superior skill (and determination really) is above that of Dooku's. The form hardly was the problem, it was the fact Anakin was "all over him".
This would indicate that Makashi is, indeed, not utterly useless, but may produce a minor setback, because as noted, Dooku tooled Sora:
By tooling Sora you mean the fact that Sora Bulq lost primarily because he was hit head on with a blast of lightning that he never learned to defend against? Are we also ignoring that Bulq has never seen Dooku's style of fighting, unlike Skywalker who knew Dooku's style, and trained against it. And are we also excluding that Dooku had no idea to prepare for whatever form Anakin preferred, giving the former the clear advantage in said battle scenario.
Anakin knew Dooku's technique and prepared Djem So specifically for him. His battle plan was to force Dooku into a head on battle. Dooku on the other hand had NO information against his opponent, and was unprepared for said attack plan. Against Malak, he is not exactly facing a Makashi user, nor is he facing an opponent he knows the attack technique of. If he tries his head on tactics, he is facing an individual of even greater physical strength.
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I'm out for now, I will get back to you guys in two or so days, midterms call unfortunately. 🙁
Since when? Yoda can lift the temple of Ilum, destroy a droid army totally on his own, defeat the Bpfasshi Dark Jedi and their master who was so powerful he left a great taint on Dagobah....which Yoda personally contained to the cave...outmatch three masters, including Depa Billaba, the Vaapad mistress...
