Re: Re: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Re: Re: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats completely subjective. Even if you wanted to agree that they cant dodge bullets if they are superhuman why cant they move so fast that even trained guys cant hit them?
Which part is subjective?
Soldiers routinely practice against moving targets (or I hope they do). Hunters can hit things that are both flying and moving. You can watch a car drive by you moving at more than 60mph. You can track it with your finger if you want. Are you suggesting that Cap can run faster than a car on the highway?
Guns and people trained with them are not shown well in comics. I am not putting down cap, there are thousands of other characters and instances where this happens. It might be nit picking, but fine, it's the ONE thing that consistently bothers me about comic books, or James Bond movies for that matter.
You of course can just say all of this is subjective, so I challenge you, go to the street, pick up a stick, and aim it at a speeding car. Find out how close that car has to be / how fast the car has to be moving for you to be unable to track it. I don't think there are studies on this, but its common sense. To track the movement of something you only have to change the orientation of your hands by the smallest amount whereas the moving target must travel a exponentially larger distance.
This doesn't even begin to take into account things like our innate abilities to calculate trajectory and those types of things, or the fact that in many "bullet dodge" scans you end up with the hero in a roll or jump, which would INSTANTLY reduce their ability to dodge any further bullets.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Im aware of all of that but there are so many things that people accept on this forum that dont make sense, to nitpick on points like that is iilogical. If you want to do that you need to do a massive overhaul on all the characters. Lets have a look at some stuff:
It depends on what you mean by "make sense". If by application to real world physics you mean they don't make sense, then, ok, sure. Radiation doesn't TECHNICALLY give you spider powers, and nobody is out there screaming it doesn't make sense for peter parker to stick to walls.
The thing is, radiation giving peter spider powers is completely in line with all of his other feats. When they show Spider-Man, there is consistency in that matter. This is where I would say bullet dodging feats don't make sense.
Cap is not shown to be able to run 60mph. Nowhere in his books can he do that. If he has a feat where he runs alongside a car speeding on the highway, cool, then I'll buy that, but even then, that isn't fast enough to dodge bullets.
Originally posted by Alfheim
1. Dr Doom does not have superhuman intelligence but can still build time machines. Using current 2007 tech and not having superhuman intelligence how does he do it? Even if you were not going to have any problem with that, dont you think that if somebody was that intelligent that the intelligence on its own would give him superhuman powers? Dr Doom has other psionic and magical powers but they are not due to his intelligence.
ummmmm, I can give you a VERY detailed response to this... the easiest is that, him being super smart is a consistent showing.
In brief though, it makes complete sense. All technology becomes more complex through a serial type process. Things are added onto things that already exist. The wealth of human knowledge is the same. The ability to write down data and preserve it / share it with others is one of the roots of human civilization.
However, throughout history, some people are able to look at that data / available technology, and do things that are seemingly remarkable with it. Things so advanced, it is hard to see where they attained the insight for it. The best example for this is Einstein. His work was much like that, and to some extent Hawking is doing this, but on a much more limited scale with black holes.
So, if your argument is that people like Einstein should be considered super human, thats ridiculous.
Again, to add the most important point here, IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT MAKES SENSE ACCORDING TO MODERN UNDERSTANDINGS OF PHYSICS. ON PANEL FEATS SUPPORT DOOM BEING SUPER SMART WITHOUT BEING SUPER HUMAN. And those feats are consistent with all his others.
Originally posted by Alfheim
2. The Hulk should not have to touch anybody to hurt them if he can lift 100, 000's tons he should be able to kill people by flexing his muscles. The flexing of the muscles would be so strong that they would send vibrations through the air. How the hell do guys like that walk around without breaking stuff and killing people by accident? So they can lift 100,000s tons but they touch people without killing them. Why doesnt the ground shake everytime these people walk?
Again, best answer is that it is consistent with all of his other showings.
The secondary answer being, its the same reason why you or I could pick up a egg shell.
Originally posted by Alfheim
3. Why does Wonder Woman have class 100 strength but is still able to get hurt by bullets and arrows? Her being a magical character does not explain it, the purpose of the magic was to make her a warrior. Why the hell would somebody cast a spell to give somebody class 100 strength but make their durability significantly weaker.
Thats not even remotely similar. I think you have missed the point I am making. I don't care if the comic universe is at all a mirror of our own universe. I don't care if the motivations of a character don't make sense according to my motivations.
If these things bothered me I wouldn't be able to read comics.
The issue I have with this is very simple. To dodge a bullet, you would have to be X fast.
Streetlevelers don't have consistent feats of them moving X fast outside of bullet dodging.
This doesn't affect the way I read comics, because I don't read them the same way I would read a periodical paper. However, in a forum scenario, which is much more comparable to the latter, it does matter. Giving cap or any other streetleveler (and many who are above that class) bullet dodging speed would be outside of the powers they consistently show.
Originally posted by Alfheim
4. As far as I know characters like the Silver Surfer can travel faster than lightspeed but cannot time travel. That doesnt make any sense either.
It depends. Very few credible physicists today would tell you that moving faster than light is akin to time travel.
However, you may be onto something with this. If Marvel has said consistently that moving at speeds greater than light will send you back in time, and then it doesn't happen, its very clearly PIS.
So, if greater than light speed travel is time travel in Marvel, and Surfer doesn't time travel, there is a problem. Given that I don't care much for cosmics and that writers are not very well versed on the theoretical physics governing it, I have nothing more to say on it.
Originally posted by inamilist
Cap is not shown to be able to run 60mph. Nowhere in his books can he do that. If he has a feat where he runs alongside a car speeding on the highway, cool, then I'll buy that, but even then, that isn't fast enough to dodge bullets.
Actually. Cap can run 60 mph. He was shown doing it, and carrying a wounded child. He even said that he ran and can run the mile in just under a minute. Coupled with the fact that he doesn't fatigue (at least, that is to say that he has superhuman endurance), he can run at 60 mph.
Originally posted by inamilist
Which part is subjective?Soldiers routinely practice against moving targets (or I hope they do). Hunters can hit things that are both flying and moving. You can watch a car drive by you moving at more than 60mph. You can track it with your finger if you want. Are you suggesting that Cap can run faster than a car on the highway?
Guns and people trained with them are not shown well in comics. I am not putting down cap, there are thousands of other characters and instances where this happens. It might be nit picking, but fine, it's the ONE thing that consistently bothers me about comic books, or James Bond movies for that matter.
This doesn't even begin to take into account things like our innate abilities to calculate trajectory and those types of things, or the fact that in many "bullet dodge" scans you end up with the hero in a roll or jump, which would INSTANTLY reduce their ability to dodge any further bullets.
It depends on what you mean by "make sense". If by application to real world physics you mean they don't make sense, then, ok, sure. Radiation doesn't TECHNICALLY give you spider powers, and nobody is out there screaming it doesn't make sense for peter parker to stick to walls.
The thing is, radiation giving peter spider powers is completely in line with all of his other feats. When they show Spider-Man, there is consistency in that matter. This is where I would say bullet dodging feats don't make sense.
Cap is not shown to be able to run 60mph. Nowhere in his books can he do that. If he has a feat where he runs alongside a car speeding on the highway, cool, then I'll buy that, but even then, that isn't fast enough to dodge bullets.
Yeah Cap can run at 60 mph. By the way all that other stuff you mentioned as far as im concerned is still irrelevant. You said that Cap is superhuman, how is a trained human going to hit an extremely trained superhuman? You can go into as much detail as you want it doent make sense that trained people should be able to hit Cap, and even Spiderman has alot of experience.
Originally posted by inamilist
You of course can just say all of this is subjective, so I challenge you, go to the street, pick up a stick, and aim it at a speeding car. Find out how close that car has to be / how fast the car has to be moving for you to be unable to track it. I don't think there are studies on this, but its common sense. To track the movement of something you only have to change the orientation of your hands by the smallest amount whereas the moving target must travel a exponentially larger distance.
You dont care about physics but you want me to go and do this?
Originally posted by inamilist
ummmmm, I can give you a VERY detailed response to this... the easiest is that, him being super smart is a consistent showing.In brief though, it makes complete sense. All technology becomes more complex through a serial type process. Things are added onto things that already exist. The wealth of human knowledge is the same. The ability to write down data and preserve it / share it with others is one of the roots of human civilization.
However, throughout history, some people are able to look at that data / available technology, and do things that are seemingly remarkable with it. Things so advanced, it is hard to see where they attained the insight for it. The best example for this is Einstein. His work was much like that, and to some extent Hawking is doing this, but on a much more limited scale with black holes.
So, if your argument is that people like Einstein should be considered super human, thats ridiculous.
Well I cant prove that the Egyptians or Aztecs had information on black holes but ancient people have shown to have knowledge on the cosmos, I dont see what the big deal about black holes is.
Before Einstein was Isaac Newton how l did he create something that was seemingly impossible all he did was build up on something that somebody had already done and Quantum physics is buidling on what Einstein did. By the way some people dont even think that Hawkings is that good, all I can say is I saw a program on TV about him, his colleagues said this. I cant remember their names.
Einstein was a head of his time but I dont see how he created something seemingly impossible when other people have come before him and done something similar.
How can you compare Einstein to Dr Doom, when in 2007 they have nothing even close to time travel? We have nothing even close to light speed tech, we cant reach the bottom of the ocean or the middle of the earth. Comparing Einstein to Dr Doom is absurd. Im not talking about theory, Dr Doom has built a time machine. You cant compare creating theory to actually buidling a time machine.
Originally posted by inamilist
Again, to add the most important point here, [b]IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT MAKES SENSE ACCORDING TO MODERN UNDERSTANDINGS OF PHYSICS. ON PANEL FEATS SUPPORT DOOM BEING SUPER SMART WITHOUT BEING SUPER HUMAN. And those feats are consistent with all his others. [/B]
Well as I explained to you before Dr Doom is more ahead of his time than Einstein was, hence it is inconsistent that he does not have psionic powers.
Originally posted by inamilist
Again, best answer is that it is consistent with all of his other showings.
Thats not a good answer. This is the samething with Cap dodging bullets. Having 100,000 tons will gave you other powers as a side affect as would being able to dodge bullets. So the Hulk is consistently inconsistent like Cap.
Originally posted by inamilist
The secondary answer being, its the same reason why you or I could pick up a egg shell.
Well architects use the egg shell design to build more durable structures. So thats not a good example. There was even a science experiment on Tv where people had to stand on eggs. A person can pick up an insect without killing it, but insects seem to be proportionally stonger than humans, such as ants and fleas, so I think this is the flaw in my argument.
Originally posted by inamilist
Thats not even remotely similar. I think you have missed the point I am making. I don't care if the comic universe is at all a mirror of our own universe. I don't care if the motivations of a character don't make sense according to my motivations.
Ok but it still an inconsistency not to do with physics though.
Originally posted by inamilist
If these things bothered me I wouldn't be able to read comics.The issue I have with this is very simple. To dodge a bullet, you would have to be X fast.
Streetlevelers don't have consistent feats of them moving X fast outside of bullet dodging.
To be intelligent as Dr Doom you would have to have X powers. If were able to lift 100,000's tons you should be able to ahve certain other powers as well. So basically you are not seeing the other inconsitencies.
Originally posted by inamilist
This doesn't affect the way I read comics, because I don't read them the same way I would read a periodical paper. However, in a forum scenario, which is much more comparable to the latter, it does matter. Giving cap or any other streetleveler (and many who are above that class) bullet dodging speed would be outside of the powers they consistently show.
I have already dealt with this point.
Originally posted by inamilist
It depends. Very few credible physicists today would tell you that moving faster than light is akin to time travel.However, you may be onto something with this. If Marvel has said consistently that moving at speeds greater than light will send you back in time, and then it doesn't happen, its very clearly PIS.
So, if greater than light speed travel is time travel in Marvel, and Surfer doesn't time travel, there is a problem. Given that I don't care much for cosmics and that writers are not very well versed on the theoretical physics governing it, I have nothing more to say on it.
Somebody dealt with this point.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore shouldnt all speedsters have superhuman intelligence. If they can move that fast they should be able to process huge amonuts of information in a very small amount of time.All speedsters should be masterminds like Dr Doom. Sorry there is inconsistency throughtout the Marvel Universe.
A lot of them are actually. Most of them, in fact. You're mistaking intelligence with cunning/strategy.
Take Quicksilver for example. He's incredibly intelligent/brilliant (book-wise). But he's just not a strategist.
Originally posted by Metalmanx
A lot of them are actually. Most of them, in fact. You're mistaking intelligence with cunning/strategy.Take Quicksilver for example. He's incredibly intelligent/brilliant (book-wise). But he's just not a strategist.
Yeah im aware of that. Is Quicksilver smart because of his powers, or becaues hes related to Magento. Speed Demon was already a genuis before he gots his powers. Super Sabre is vetaran. They are smart but not because of their powers.
Futhermore how often have these guys been outsmarted? A powerless Storm was able to outsmart super sabre. Spiderman was able to outsmart speed demon......and im sure this is not the first time stuff like this has happened. This is an inconsistent showing of powers.
Originally posted by Super Guy
Also in one of the Roger McKenzie/ Miller issues (reprinted in Visionaries: v1) DD knows Bullseye can shoot him and the only way he avoids getting the contens of his head all over the place is by bluffing...
So the guy can hit bullets with his baton but cant dodge bullets. Does that make sense to you? These writers dont know what the hell they are doing.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah Cap can run at 60 mph. By the way all that other stuff you mentioned as far as im concerned is still irrelevant. You said that Cap is superhuman, how is a [B] trained human going to hit an extremely trained superhuman? You can go into as much detail as you want it doent make sense that trained people should be able to hit Cap, and even Spiderman has alot of experience.
[/B]
so, your answer to why Cap can dodge bullets is his experience?
Man, I wish I could be a tetragrammaton cleric. No wait, they are only trained how to not be where people are likely to shoot...
A person running 60 mph won't dodge bullets no matter how experienced they are from an equally skilled marksman. And that's giving the benefit of the doubt he runs that fast in the first place. Do you think mankind would be where it is today if people running 60 mph could dodge bullets?
Cap isn't bulletproof therefore they can't kill him off, which is why the bullets miss him. I gurantee you if he could take the hits like Wolverine could, he would stand to get hit more often. There is a difference between bullet dodging and the marksman missing...
Originally posted by inamilist
so, your answer to why Cap can dodge bullets is his experience?Man, I wish I could be a tetragrammaton cleric. No wait, they are only trained how to not be where people are likely to shoot...
Bro I have gone to the effort of writing a long post replying to your points. You have only replied to a fraction of it.
Your whole way of arguing is flawed you say that you dont mind if comics physics are not the same as real world physics but you complain that if Cap was able to dodge bullets he should be X fast. The fact of the matter is this if you were not conerned with real physics it would not matter if Cap was X fast, because the fact that he can dodge bullets is not consistent with real world physics but he has CONSISTENTLY dodged them You have also written below that it does not matter if comics dont represent real world physics, you just want consistency, so basically you are just contradicting yourself but you dont know it.
Originally posted by inamilist
Again, to add the most important point here, [b]IT DOESN'T MATTER IF IT MAKES SENSE ACCORDING TO MODERN UNDERSTANDINGS OF PHYSICS. ON PANEL FEATS SUPPORT DOOM BEING SUPER SMART WITHOUT BEING SUPER HUMAN. And those feats are consistent with all his others.[/B]
At the sametime we have characters like Thor and other who can lift 100,000s of tons and can produce enough strength to affect a whole planet (Thor and Hercules fighting). This is exactly the same thing as Cap. If these guys are X strong that means certain things should happen but they dont.
Not to mention my other points.
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
A person running 60 mph won't dodge bullets no matter how experienced they are from an equally skilled marksman. And that's giving the benefit of the doubt he runs that fast in the first place. Do you think mankind would be where it is today if people running 60 mph could dodge bullets?Cap isn't bulletproof therefore they can't kill him off, which is why the bullets miss him. I gurantee you if he could take the hits like Wolverine could, he would stand to get hit more often. There is a difference between bullet dodging and the marksman missing...
If you want to complain about Cap, complain about the whole Marvel Universe. I have written two posts explaing the problem you have with loads of other characters. How fast can Spiderman run?
Originally posted by AlfheimI'm not complaining about Cap, you think I'm complaining about him. He's the discussion I see on this page. I've already said several times that bullets are jobbers, and they aren't logically going to continue to miss anyone going at speeds in which are peak human, or enhanced human. Bullets are simply made to make the character look good. My point is correct and still stands. I don't think Spiderman dodges a plethora of bullets, it depends on the distance and the situation. He has something Cap doesn't. A warning sense. Cap can't be compared to him because they aren't similar.
If you want to complain about Cap, complain about the whole Marvel Universe. I have written two posts explaing the problem you have with loads of other characters. How fast can Spiderman run?
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I'm not complaining about Cap, you think I'm complaining about him. He's the discussion I see on this page. I've already said several times that bullets are jobbers, and they aren't logically going to continue to miss anyone going at speeds in which are peak human, or enhanced human. Bullets are simply made to make the character look good. My point is correct and still stands. I don't think Spiderman dodges a plethora of bullets, it depends on the distance and the situation. He has something Cap doesn't. A warning sense. Cap can't be compared to him because they aren't similar.
Ok fair enough. It got me thinking though if Cap can run at 60mph, doesnt that also mean that characters like Thor, Hercules, Hulk etc should be able to run and break the sound barrier?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Bro I have gone to the effort of writing a long post replying to your points. You have only replied to a fraction of it.
To be honest, I spent a good chunk of time yesterday in the Visual Attention lab finding studies on saccadic tracking and smooth pursuit velocities to cite in response to what you had said.
However, it doesn't seem that your argument works. I'll expand on this later, however, aside from the fact that he does it on panel, there is nothing else to suggest that he could dodge a bullet.
Also, I really don't know what to say about comments like "Aztecs knew more about black holes than we do"
Originally posted by Alfheim
Your whole way of arguing is flawed you say that you dont mind if comics physics are not the same as real world physics but you complain that if Cap was able to dodge bullets he should be X fast. The fact of the matter is this if you were not conerned with real physics it would not matter if Cap was X fast,[B] because the fact that he can dodge bullets is not consistent with real world physics but he has CONSISTENTLY dodged them You have also written below that it does not matter if comics dont represent real world physics, you just want consistency, so basically you are just contradicting yourself but you dont know it.
[/B]
You do make a good point. Though, I have agreed with it several times prior to this. Yes, bullet dodging is a very special case to me, as it is one of the few areas where comic physics bother me. Yes, I am probably nit picking.
However, as I have also stated before, its not the fact that it happens on panel. Lots of things happen on panel. Man-Thing beat Dr Strange on panel.
From the side of me who enjoys reading fun and surreal comics, it doesn't matter. If Spidey beat up Sentry, I wouldn't care as I was reading it (bad writing aside).
So yes, if you think what I am saying is that in comics Cap shouldn't dodge bullets, then I take that back. Clearly I haven't explained myself well enough.
There is a huge difference between on panel showings and valid feats used in debates. The only place where bullet dodging becomes a problem is in the debates.
There is a paradox created by the feats that has not been answered. Streetlevelers, superhumans, metahumans, whatever, that are not speedsters all have on panel feats of them dodging bullets. If those feats are valid in forum discussion, it EASILY moves the character up in power level to some ridiculous degree. Recently in the "Marvel team vs Bat-Family" thread, a Punisher with 2, 2, assault rifles and grenades is incapable of taking down nightwing, batman, or bat-girl. This is ONLY because of all of the ridiculous bullet dodging feats they have. I challenge you to find scans of people you think should dodge bullets moving at over 300m/s outside of bullet dodging feats.
Its only when people try to use bullet dodging as a valid feat that it becomes a nuisance to me.
Look, maybe the answer is that bullets in the comic universe only travel at 20 mph. Or maybe the engineers in those worlds don't know how to make guns that fire in a straight line.
I see what you are saying, I understand it well, I just don't agree. Doing something on panel is only the first of many components to a valid argument on these forums.
Originally posted by inamilist
To be honest, I spent a good chunk of time yesterday in the Visual Attention lab finding studies on saccadic tracking and smooth pursuit velocities to cite in response to what you had said.
Ok.
Originally posted by inamilist
However, it doesn't seem that your argument works. I'll expand on this later, however, aside from the fact that he does it on panel, there is nothing else to suggest that he could dodge a bullet.
In hindsight this is something that I used to think about when reading comics. The logical explanation I think is that they can move like speedsters for short time periods, in bursts.
Originally posted by inamilist
Also, I really don't know what to say about comments like "Aztecs knew more about black holes than we do"
I didnt say that, I said:
Well I cant prove that the Egyptians or Aztecs had information on black holes but ancient people have shown to have knowledge on the cosmos, I dont see what the big deal about black holes is.
I said they had information on the cosmos, I didnt say they knew more and I dont know if they knew about black holes. I also made some other important points which I dont want to go over again.
Originally posted by inamilist
You do make a good point. Though, I have agreed with it several times prior to this. Yes, bullet dodging is a very special case to me, as it is one of the few areas where comic physics bother me. Yes, I am probably nit picking.
To be fair you are.
Originally posted by inamilist
However, as I have also stated before, its not the fact that it happens on panel. Lots of things happen on panel. Man-Thing beat Dr Strange on panel.From the side of me who enjoys reading fun and surreal comics, it doesn't matter. If Spidey beat up Sentry, I wouldn't care as I was reading it (bad writing aside).
Ok.
Originally posted by inamilist
So yes, if you think what I am saying is that in comics Cap shouldn't dodge bullets, then I take that back. Clearly I haven't explained myself well enough.
Ok
Originally posted by inamilist
There is a huge difference between on panel showings and valid feats used in debates. The only place where bullet dodging becomes a problem is in the debates.
Ok but this is what im saying. If you want to do that then you need to do an overhaul of all the Marvel superheroes, because if you do that then you are just picking on one thing.
Originally posted by inamilist
There is a paradox created by the feats that has not been answered. Streetlevelers, superhumans, metahumans, whatever, that are not speedsters all have on panel feats of them dodging bullets. If those feats are valid in forum discussion, it EASILY moves the character up in power level to some ridiculous degree.
Well I think the short bursts theory might explain it.
Originally posted by inamilist
Recently in the "Marvel team vs Bat-Family" thread, a Punisher with 2, [b]2, assault rifles and grenades is incapable of taking down nightwing, batman, or bat-girl. This is ONLY because of all of the ridiculous bullet dodging feats they have. I challenge you to find scans of people you think should dodge bullets moving at over 300m/s outside of bullet dodging feats.[/B]
Cap hitting Quicksilver with his shield. Cap punching speedsters. Spiderman snagging speed demon with his webbing. DD bating bullets with his baton. This could explain why sometimes you see characters like Cap only being able to hit speedsters with one punch, because they can only move that fast over short distances and time periods.
Originally posted by inamilist
Its only when people try to use bullet dodging as a valid feat that it becomes a nuisance to me.
Ok
Originally posted by inamilist
Look, maybe the answer is that bullets in the comic universe only travel at 20 mph. Or maybe the engineers in those worlds don't know how to make guns that fire in a straight line.
Short bursts?
Originally posted by inamilist
I see what you are saying, I understand it well, I just don't agree. Doing something on panel is only the first of many components to a valid argument on these forums.
Ok.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok but this is what im saying. If you want to do that then you need to do an overhaul of all the Marvel superheroes, because if you do that then you are just picking on one thing.
😉
boy would I write comics different than those guys at Marvel would.
And I guess you are probably right, for whatever reason, Cap is somehow able to dodge bullets. I don't like it, but, me liking it is hardly criteria for a feat.
I still would say its terrible writing, or at the very least uncreative, but it looks like we have come to the point of saying all there is to say on the matter.
Good discussion 🙂 thank you