Originally posted by Devil King
Because you have to drink the kool aid to get into heaven. And by that, I mean he believes you have to be just like him (and apparently the dozens of KMC member's he's "reached" with his message) to get past god's personality test and get into heaven.
Wrong. You do not have to be like me to get into Heaven, you just have put your faith in Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Wrong. You do not have to be like me to get into Heaven, you just have put your faith in Jesus Christ.
Which means we have to:
Abandon our own beleifs, thoughts, feelings, and identities, and:
Adopts yours.
We have to change our lifestyles, values, perceptions, biases, and make them yours.
No Thanks 👇
I realize that Lazarus wasn't in the fire. He was in the so-called bosom of Abraham, which is, as you have mentioned, the holding place for the righteous. I do hold that the fire of Sheol/Hades is different than the fire of Tartarus/the lake of fire because they are seperate. That is all I am saying.
However, read 1 Corinthians 3:13-17 and see that purification by fire does occur before heaven.
Originally posted by Goddess Kali
Which means we have to:Abandon our own beleifs, thoughts, feelings, and identities, and:
Adopts yours.
We have to change our lifestyles, values, perceptions, biases, and make them yours.
No Thanks 👇
Show me where I ever said that you had to do all of that to go to Heaven.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I realize that Lazarus wasn't in the fire. He was in the so-called bosom of Abraham, which is, as you have mentioned, the holding place for the righteous. I do hold that the fire of Sheol/Hades is different than the fire of Tartarus/the lake of fire because they are seperate. That is all I am saying.However, read 1 Corinthians 3:13-17 and see that purification by fire does occur before heaven.
The very premise of the Dogma of Purgatory (the word purgatory is derived from the Latin word, "purgare", which means to make clean, to purify) is that it is a place where a person who has died in venial sin or who is (somehow) still subject to temporal punishment for sin must remain until he/she is purified of those sin(s). Does the verse of Scriptures that you have furnished support this view? I do not believe so brother. Here is why. The very first verse that you provided (verse 13) starts out this way:
1 Corinthians 3:13
each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
So from the context it is clear that a person's "work" is the subject under discussion in this verse which, incidentally sets the tone as it were for any subsequent verses.
1 Corinthians 3:14-17
14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. 16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
What these verses are talking about brother is the quality of our "work" since becoming saved. Our work will be examined by fire to test its integrity. If our work passes this fiery inspection then we will receive a reward. Everything that we have ever done since becoming saved by faith in Christ will undergo evaluation to determine whether we receive a reward or not.
Verse 14 mentions the word "work" and "reward" in the same context. This helps eliminate any confusion about what the apostle Paul is talking about. The apostle John offers an admonition on the same topic.
2 John 1:8
8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
Jesus had a lot to say about rewards as well.
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works .
Actually brother you started with verse 13 but if you go up to verse 8 you can get an even clearer picture of what the apostle Paul is talking about in better context than verse 13.
1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
So in full context brother it is conclusive that those verses that you provided are not alluding to purification of the individual, but rather of the person's "work" in order to determine if he/she deserves a reward. Each one's "work" will be tested with fire, not each person will be be purified with fire so that they can be good enough for Heaven. Fire does not purify people, it destroys as it were. Jesus talked about Hell fire destroying the body and soul (this is a whole different subject though). My point is simply that fire (in reference to souls) does not purify, it destroys as it were.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
So, the context or subject matter of the verses that you submitted reference the quality of a person's work(s), but they are not a proof text for the Dogma of Purgatory. The Bible is clear brother: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. We go immediately into Christ's presence at death. In a few instances the apostle Paul makes references about departing to be with the Lord. The inference is that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no indication anywhere in the Bible that one must be purged from sin in a place called Purgatory first before going to Heaven.
Philippians 1:21-25
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. 24 Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. 25 And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith,
The apostle Paul talks about the desire that he has to depart (i.e. for his spirit to depart from his physical body) and to be with Christ in Heaven. Paul calls this "far better" than remaining or continuing to live on in his flesh. But Paul knows that he can be of more benefit to the people that he is ministering to if he lives on in his flesh. Paul even calls death "gain." Most people call death loss but not Paul. It is not plausible based on the Bible that believers who die must be purified in a place called Purgatory, that would certainly not be "gain," nor would it be "far better" in my estimation. However, dying and immediately going into the presence of Jesus Christ would be "far better" and "gain."
2 Corinthians 5:6
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Paul strongly affirms the doctrine that to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There is no intermediate part of this transition from the body to Heaven according to Paul. Purgatory would be an intermediary part, but it is not Scripturally supportable.
Can you see this brother?
You are misinterpretating what I am saying.
"But he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire". We are saved through fire. The works are passed through the fire, but according to this, so is the person themselves, even though they are saved. This is not necessarily a tormenting fire, but it is fire nonetheless.
**My point is simply that fire (in reference to souls) does not purify, it destroys as it were.**
Fire is purification in this context as it burns away the bad works, the blemishes and imperfect deeds we do in our life. This is similar to the purification of metals by fire which is where the term comes from. This is a purifying fire, not a destructive fire.
**The apostle Paul talks about the desire that he has to depart (i.e. for his spirit to depart from his physical body) and to be with Christ in Heaven. Paul calls this "far better" than remaining or continuing to live on in his flesh. But Paul knows that he can be of more benefit to the people that he is ministering to if he lives on in his flesh. Paul even calls death "gain." Most people call death loss but not Paul. It is not plausible based on the Bible that believers who die must be purified in a place called Purgatory, that would certainly not be "gain," nor would it be "far better" in my estimation. However, dying and immediately going into the presence of Jesus Christ would be "far better" and "gain."**
This has some faulty logic considering that heaven is the ultimate reward either way.
And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul is talking about the current life, not what comes after, therefore, it cannot be applicable to the doctrine of Purgatory.
Originally posted by Nellinator
You are misinterpretating what I am saying."But he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire". We are saved through fire. The works are passed through the fire, but according to this, so is the person themselves, even though they are saved. This is not necessarily a tormenting fire, but it is fire nonetheless.
**My point is simply that fire (in reference to souls) does not purify, it destroys as it were.**
Fire is purification in this context as it burns away the bad works, the blemishes and imperfect deeds we do in our life. This is similar to the purification of metals by fire which is where the term comes from. This is a purifying fire, not a destructive fire.
**The apostle Paul talks about the desire that he has to depart (i.e. for his spirit to depart from his physical body) and to be with Christ in Heaven. Paul calls this "far better" than remaining or continuing to live on in his flesh. But Paul knows that he can be of more benefit to the people that he is ministering to if he lives on in his flesh. Paul even calls death "gain." Most people call death loss but not Paul. It is not plausible based on the Bible that believers who die must be purified in a place called Purgatory, that would certainly not be "gain," nor would it be "far better" in my estimation. However, dying and immediately going into the presence of Jesus Christ would be "far better" and "gain."**
This has some faulty logic considering that heaven is the ultimate reward either way.
And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul is talking about the current life, not what comes after, therefore, it cannot be applicable to the doctrine of Purgatory.
Your interpretation contradicts many Scriptures in the Bible. The only thing that "purifies" or "cleanses" us from sin is the blood of Jesus Christ, not fire. Fire does not burn away our sins, but it will test our works which if the work remains, we will receive a reward for it. This is the only possible interpretation of those verses. They have nothing at all to do with salvation from sin. Revelation 16:8 shows that fire is always used as a form of punishment, never as a form of purification. 1 Peter 1:7 talks about our faith being tested by fire. If fire was all that was necessary for salvation then Jesus died in vain. All God would have had to do was send everyone to Hell and let them burn up all of their “imperfect deeds in life” as you put it then we would be Heaven-bound. This kind of teaching is heretical and has no place in God’s Word. If fire cleanses us from our sins then Hell would not be eternal because once our “bad works”, “blemishes,” or “imperfect deeds” are burned up in Hell we would be saved and ready to stand in God’s holy presence. This is totally unscriptural, heretical, and on the verge of blasphemy.
The fire is designed to prove or test each person's "work," not "sins" as is taught in the Dogma of Purgatory. The entire context of 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-16 has nothing at all to do with a person's sins being purged. The word "sin" does not even occur in that context. The word "work" and "reward" does because that is the subject matter. From verse 8 to verse 15 the apostle Paul is talking about works in reference to reward, not works in reference to "sins" that need purging. You must start at verse 8 then use the context of that verse to orient your understanding of subsequent verses. Then after you have read all of the related Scriptures on that subject (and in that context), you will be able to interpret the whole. It appears that you are reading information into that context that is not there and does not agree with the surrounding verses.
1 Corinthians 3:15
15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:15 states, “…yet so as through fire.
Notice, however what it does not say: it does not say, "through fire he will be saved." There is a big difference between the two. The word “as” denotes that whatever it modifies is being done so metaphorically.
Jude
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.
I surmise that some have even used this passage of Scripture to support their belief in Purgatory. But this verse mentions nothing about anyone being “purged” of their sins in Purgatory, nor is it a proof text for praying for the dead in Purgatory. Jude used emblematic language here to describe the act of a believer making a proactive effort to help someone get saved. The act of reaching out to someone with the gospel message to help them avoid Hell is akin to pulling them out of the fire so to speak, but you are not literally pulling them out of the fire (it is a metaphor). There simply is not enough Scripture here to support the Dogma of Purgatory. However, there is a plethora of Scripture that substantiates the doctrine that we are sins have been washed or cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no remission. This Scripture alone refutes the Dogma of Purgatory.
Blargh, you misinterpreted it again. I contradicted no scriptures. I never mentioned salvation coming from anywhere but Christ. Purification does not equal salvation from sin and I have never said as such, that is purely your own misconception of what I said. I have not gone anyhwere near heresy, nor blasphemy. Stop trying to find fault and jumping to false conclusions to do so.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Blargh, you misinterpreted it again. I contradicted no scriptures. I never mentioned salvation coming from anywhere but Christ. Purification does not equal salvation from sin and I have never said as such, that is purely your own misconception of what I said. I have not gone anyhwere near heresy, nor blasphemy. Stop trying to find fault and jumping to conclusion to do so.
Then I sincerely apologize.
But you have not countered my points that countered yours to show me where you believe that I have made a wrong interpretation.
Yes, I did. You aren't reading. Bad works = sins. These are the ones that are burned by the fire according to 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 as they do not stand the fire. That is purification which is not the same as purging, nor salvation, nor forgiveness. It is far different. Therefore, fire is used for things other than punishment according to these verses. I have already stated that I do not believe in Purgatory so the next part is negligible.
The word "as" does not appear in the Greek therefore this is negligible.
You then quote Jude as a defeat of Purgatory doctrine, but this is again not applicable as I do not believe in Purgatory. You then bring up prayer for the dead for reasons unexplained. However, on that note you ignore 2 Maccabees which does address it and is apart of the canon that Jesus himself used, but for some reason, you do not.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Yes, I did. You aren't reading. Bad works = sins. These are the ones that are burned by the fire according to 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 as they do not stand the fire. That is purification which is not the same as purging, nor salvation, nor forgiveness. It is far different. Therefore, fire is used for things other than punishment according to these verses. I have already stated that I do not believe in Purgatory so the next part is negligible.The word "as" does not appear in the Greek therefore this is negligible.
You then quote Jude as a defeat of Purgatory doctrine, but this is again not applicable as I do not believe in Purgatory.
You then bring up prayer for the dead for reasons unexplained. However, on that note you ignore 2 Maccabees which does address it and is apart of the canon that Jesus himself used, but for some reason, you do not.
The word "bad" works is nowhere in any of those verses, you have added the word "bad" to support your supposition. I can see how you could be led to believe that those verses are talking about sins but they are not. Nowhere in the Bible is a person's bad works burned up by fire (that is unscriptural). Explain what purification means to you in this context since you state that it is not the same as purging, salvation, nor forgiveness. Yes fire is used for something other punishment but in reference to people it is invariably used as a form of punishment. But those verses have nothing to do with punishment. You state that you do not believe in Purgatory but yet you still cling to vestiges of it (i.e. the whole purifying part). I found a Scripture (Job 23:10) where Job talks about being tested and coming forth as gold, but he is speaking metaphorically.
In my Bible any words that are not found in the original languages but are needed for clarity in English are italicized. But the word “as” is not italicized in that context so it is relevant not neglible.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Purgatory = Sheol/Hades. It is scriptually founded. Especially if you look into the whole Bible, that is including the deuterocanonicals that Protestants erroneously removed.
You state that you do not believe in Purgatory but yet you claim that it is Scripturally founded. If it is Scripturally founded then why don’t you believe it? You sound as though you support and believe in Purgatory but then in another instance you flat out deny any belief in the Dogma of Purgatory.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I realize that Lazarus wasn't in the fire. He was in the so-called bosom of Abraham, which is, as you have mentioned, the holding place for the righteous. I do hold that the fire of Sheol/Hades is different than the fire of Tartarus/the lake of fire because they are seperate. That is all I am saying.However, read 1 Corinthians 3:13-17 and see that purification by fire does occur before heaven.
Brother, you state that you do not believe in Purgatory but some things that you say indicate otherwise. The whole “purification by fire does occur before heaven” comment that you make is a characteristic of the Dogma of Purgatory. You cannot deny your belief in Purgatory and still hold on to parts of it.
You are misinterpreting what I am saying.
"But he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire". We are saved through fire. The works are passed through the fire, but according to this, so is the person themselves, even though they are saved. This is not necessarily a tormenting fire, but it is fire nonetheless.
You just stated that we are saved through fire, but we are not saved through fire, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I know what you mean you mean that we have to pass "through the fire" first in the process of being saved right? Wrong. This is still unscriptural because that is not what the Scriptures are even talking about in 1 Corinthians 3:13-16.
Fire is purification in this context as it burns away the bad works, the blemishes and imperfect deeds we do in our life. This is similar to the purification of metals by fire which is where the term comes from. This is a purifying fire, not a destructive fire.
There is no such animal as a purifying fire in the Bible in reference to people. Fire is not purification in the context of 1 Corinthians 3:13-16, and not it does not burn away the bad works, the blemishes and imperfect deeds we do in our life. This is unscriptural. Wait a minute: what does bad works, blemishes, and imperfect deeds mean to you? I already believe that you are incorrect by I want to give you the benefit of the doubt?
This has some faulty logic considering that heaven is the ultimate reward either way.
Actually, being able to see God is my ultimate reward.
And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul is talking about the current life, not what comes after, therefore, it cannot be applicable to the doctrine of Purgatory.
I believe the apostle Paul is talking about the life he lives now and the life that he could be living in Heaven. That Scripture simply supports the fact that when we die we go immediately into the Lord’s presence, not to some place to pass through fire and have our bad works, blemishes, and imperfect deeds burned up. So I believe that it is applicable to the Dogma of Purgatory.
Can you see this brother?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Then I sincerely apologize.But you have not countered my points that countered yours to show me where you believe that I have made a wrong interpretation.
***Dear Brother:
Your arguments against the blasphemous doctrine of Purgatory are biblical...therefore, you need NOT apologize to anyone for them.
Too, your adversary's position on this doctrine of the Catholic Church is blatantly unscriptural...because he does NOT accept the CANONICAL Scriptures nor believes them and appeals to books that are NOT canonical [i.e., thus his appeal to 2 Maccabees...which tells of the work of Judas Maccabeus, who after a battle sent money to Jerusalem to offer a sacrifice for soldiers who had died while guilty of the sin of idolatry]. The appeal to the Book of 2 Maccabees does NOT and CANNOT support the doctrine of Purgatory in the ANY manner...no purging...no purification...for IDOLATRY [accordinging to the Roman Catholic Church] is a MORTAL sin and those dying in MORTAL sin go DIRECTLY to HELL.
BOTTOM-LINE: Your adversary does NOT believe in the authorized CANON of the Scriptures...and appeals to NON-CANONICAL books for his arguments. Therefore he will NEVER repent of his ERROR and will NOT submit to biblical correction.
Marchello
Batman could beat Superman, he did already in The Dark Knight returns.
Dude, don't be stupid, that was an Elseworld, that does't count.
What about Hush though.
PIS, everyone knows that.
PIS my ass, purgatory is stated in the bible.
NO! You don't get it, it is not canon. Not canon.
You are not to decide what canon is.
The Roman Catholic church has no authority, the bible is the only true word of God.
But George Lucas can change the trilogy whenever he wants...it is his work.
😐
Originally posted by MarchelloYou are stupid if you believe that you possess the canon. 2 Maccabees is in the Septuagint which is the canon that Jesus used. By denying its position in the canon you are committing heresy by making Jesus out to be a liar and an author of confusion. Luther removed it erroneously, but apparently you appeal to the canon of Luther over the canon of Jesus.
***Dear Brother:Your arguments against the blasphemous doctrine of Purgatory are biblical...therefore, you need NOT apologize to anyone for them.
Too, your adversary's position on this doctrine of the Catholic Church is blatantly unscriptural...because he does NOT accept the CANONICAL Scriptures nor believes them and appeals to books that are NOT canonical [i.e., thus his appeal to 2 Maccabees...which tells of the work of Judas Maccabeus, who after a battle sent money to Jerusalem to offer a sacrifice for soldiers who had died while guilty of the sin of idolatry]. The appeal to the Book of 2 Maccabees does NOT and CANNOT support the doctrine of Purgatory in the ANY manner...no purging...no purification...for IDOLATRY [accordinging to the Roman Catholic Church] is a MORTAL sin and those dying in MORTAL sin go DIRECTLY to HELL.
BOTTOM-LINE: Your adversary does NOT believe in the authorized CANON of the Scriptures...and appeals to NON-CANONICAL books for his arguments. Therefore he will NEVER repent of his ERROR and will NOT submit to biblical correction.
Marchello
Also, I wasn't using it to support my position, nor was I supporting the doctrine of purgatory. Use the brain that God gave you please. Also, JIA and I are still discussing this and working through some misunderstandings that are taking place. You are stuck in doctrinal trappings and forget the history of the church. You are bastardizing the message and purpose of Christ's message with this idiocy.
Third, I am not JIA's adversary, we are discussing scripture, I am not opposing him.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The word "bad" works is nowhere in any of those verses, you have added the word "bad" to support your supposition. I can see how you could be led to believe that those verses are talking about sins but they are not. Nowhere in the Bible is a person's bad works burned up by fire (that is unscriptural). Explain what purification means to you in this context since you state that it is not the same as purging, salvation, nor forgiveness. Yes fire is used for something other punishment but in reference to people it is invariably used as a form of punishment. But those verses have nothing to do with punishment. You state that you do not believe in Purgatory but yet you still cling to vestiges of it (i.e. the whole purifying part). I found a Scripture (Job 23:10) where Job talks about being tested and coming forth as gold, but he is speaking metaphorically.In my Bible any words that are not found in the original languages but are needed for clarity in English are italicized. But the word “as” is not italicized in that context so it is relevant not neglible.
You state that you do not believe in Purgatory but yet you claim that it is Scripturally founded. If it is Scripturally founded then why don’t you believe it? You sound as though you support and believe in Purgatory but then in another instance you flat out deny any belief in the Dogma of Purgatory.
Brother, you state that you do not believe in Purgatory but some things that you say indicate otherwise. The whole “purification by fire does occur before heaven” comment that you make is a characteristic of the Dogma of Purgatory. You cannot deny your belief in Purgatory and still hold on to parts of it.
You are misinterpreting what I am saying.
"But he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire". We are saved through fire. The works are passed through the fire, but according to this, so is the person themselves, even though they are saved. This is not necessarily a tormenting fire, but it is fire nonetheless.
You just stated that we are saved through fire, but we are not saved through fire, we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I know what you mean you mean that we have to pass "through the fire" first in the process of being saved right? Wrong. This is still unscriptural because that is not what the Scriptures are even talking about in 1 Corinthians 3:13-16.
Fire is purification in this context as it burns away the bad works, the blemishes and imperfect deeds we do in our life. This is similar to the purification of metals by fire which is where the term comes from. This is a purifying fire, not a destructive fire.
There is no such animal as a purifying fire in the Bible in reference to people. Fire is not purification in the context of 1 Corinthians 3:13-16, and not it does not burn away the bad works, the blemishes and imperfect deeds we do in our life. This is unscriptural. Wait a minute: what does bad works, blemishes, and imperfect deeds mean to you? I already believe that you are incorrect by I want to give you the benefit of the doubt?
This has some faulty logic considering that heaven is the ultimate reward either way.
Actually, being able to see God is my ultimate reward.
And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul is talking about the current life, not what comes after, therefore, it cannot be applicable to the doctrine of Purgatory.
I believe the apostle Paul is talking about the life he lives now and the life that he could be living in Heaven. That Scripture simply supports the fact that when we die we go immediately into the Lord’s presence, not to some place to pass through fire and have our bad works, blemishes, and imperfect deeds burned up. So I believe that it is applicable to the Dogma of Purgatory.
Can you see this brother?
"We are saved through fire". This was a slight slip of the tongue. However, I did mean "through", not "by means of". That sentence would be more correctly be stated as "Although we are saved our works still pass through fire". This is not a determining factor in salvation, as the Lazarus story says, "neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." The place of this is obviously not heaven because sin does not enter heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:10 states that it is before the judgement seat of Christ. That is, the fire is before heaven.
Workss are one of the ways sin is born. Fits of rage, drunkeness, gluttony, etc. are all works that are sinful. Other works, such as charity to the helpless, etc. are works that are glorifying to God. Now "the fire shall try every man's work of the sort it is." This work obvious includes both the glorifying works and the sins we have committed. The glorifying works are the ones that are not burned up and for which we receive reward. The works that are burned up are the sinful, or impurely done deeds that we have done and for these we "suffer loss". This is why 2 John 8 says "look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." Once again, this has nothing to do with salvation, but with rewards and punishment. This fire tests, but when the works "abide which he hath built thereupon" the fire does punish. This is similar to the process of purification of metals, which is why it is called purification. This is not a purification from sin because that was done on the cross by the blood of Jesus.
"Actually, being able to see God is my ultimate reward."
Which is what heaven is 😉
2 Corinthias 5:6-8 does not comment on whether we go directly to heaven or not, it is completely silent on the subject. Verse 7 indicates that Paul is talking about this life as he is talking about the walk in faith. He is equating faith with being at home with the Lord and absent from the body. This is basically being "in the Spirit" as per the common cliche. Also notice that in verse 9 he says "Wherefore, we labour, that, whether present of absent, we may be accepted of Him." Meaning that it is of this life because it is in this life that we labour.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Purgatory is a false doctrine based on something that is real. What we are discussing is what is real. It has nothing to do with purging or salvation, therefore it is completely and utterly seperate from the doctrine of Purgatory."We are saved through fire". This was a slight slip of the tongue. However, I did mean "through", not "by means of". That sentence would be more correctly be stated as "Although we are saved our works still pass through fire". This is not a determining factor in salvation, as the Lazarus story says, "neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." The place of this is obviously not heaven because sin does not enter heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:10 states that it is before the judgement seat of Christ. That is, the fire is before heaven.
Workss are one of the ways sin is born. Fits of rage, drunkeness, gluttony, etc. are all works that are sinful. Other works, such as charity to the helpless, etc. are works that are glorifying to God. Now "the fire shall try every man's work of the sort it is." This work obvious includes both the glorifying works and the sins we have committed. The glorifying works are the ones that are not burned up and for which we receive reward. The works that are burned up are the sinful, or impurely done deeds that we have done and for these we "suffer loss". This is why 2 John 8 says "look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." Once again, this has nothing to do with salvation, but with rewards and punishment. This fire tests, but when the works "abide which he hath built thereupon" the fire does punish. This is similar to the process of purification of metals, which is why it is called purification. This is not a purification from sin because that was done on the cross by the blood of Jesus.
"Actually, being able to see God is my ultimate reward."
Which is what heaven is 😉2 Corinthias 5:6-8 does not comment on whether we go directly to heaven or not, it is completely silent on the subject. Verse 7 indicates that Paul is talking about this life as he is talking about the walk in faith. He is equating faith with being at home with the Lord and absent from the body. This is basically being "in the Spirit" as per the common cliche. Also notice that in verse 9 he says "Wherefore, we labour, that, whether present of absent, we may be accepted of Him." Meaning that it is of this life because it is in this life that we labour.
Purgatory is a false doctrine based on something that is real. What we are discussing is what is real. It has nothing to do with purging or salvation, therefore it is completely and utterly seperate from the doctrine of Purgatory.
I do not follow you, what is real?
"We are saved through fire". This was a slight slip of the tongue. However, I did mean "through", not "by means of". That sentence would be more correctly be stated as "Although we are saved our works still pass through fire". This is not a determining factor in salvation, as the Lazarus story says, "neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." The place of this is obviously not heaven because sin does not enter heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:10 states that it is before the judgement seat of Christ. That is, the fire is before heaven.
We are not saved "through" fire nor do we pass "through" any fire. This is still unscriptural. We are saved "through" faith (in Jesus Christ), not through any fire. The "works" (this is what you still do not grasp brother, with all due respect) are what are subjected to the fire or that pass through the fire not the individual (i.e. the believer). You persist in stating that the "person" is the object of the fire's scrutiny, but it is not, it is the person's "work" that he/she has done on behalf of the Kingdom of God. We are not going to have to pass through any fire. We are saved, sanctified, filled with the Holy Spirit, and bound for Heaven based on Christ's sacrifice/payment for our sins. There isn't any thing else that we need to undergo in order to be fit for Heaven. We are "already" the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. We are ready for Heaven. It is finished, nothing more has to be done for us to go to Heaven because Jesus has done it all for us. That is why Jesus sat down. We can boldly enter the Holiest i.e. the throne room of Almighty God in Heaven thanks to Jesus. We do not need to undergo any fiery purification process before going to Heaven. Everything is done.
Hebrews 10:12
But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Hebrews 9:12
Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Hebrews 10:10
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Notice how eveything is in the past tense brother. It is because everything is already done. As far as sanctification it has a dual nature. Sanctification is both an accomplished act as far as us being set apart by God as holy, and righteous, but it is also an ongoing process in our lives each day because our flesh is not saved. Our flesh is still subject to sin and death.
Works are one of the ways sin is born. Fits of rage, drunkeness, gluttony, etc. are all works that are sinful. Other works, such as charity to the helpless, etc. are works that are glorifying to God. Now "the fire shall try every man's work of the sort it is." This work obvious includes both the glorifying works and the sins we have committed. The glorifying works are the ones that are not burned up and for which we receive reward. The works that are burned up are the sinful, or impurely done deeds that we have done and for these we "suffer loss". This is why 2 John 8 says "look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." Once again, this has nothing to do with salvation, but with rewards and punishment. This fire tests, but when the works "abide which he hath built thereupon" the fire does punish. This is similar to the process of purification of metals, which is why it is called purification. This is not a purification from sin because that was done on the cross by the blood of Jesus.
You are still associating the word "works" with sin. The word "works" is in 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-16 is not talking about the "works of the flesh" that are listed in Galatians 5:19-21. It is talking about works in the sense of the "things" that we do on behalf of the Kingdom of God as Christ's representatives in the earth, which inherently have a reward associated with them. We will receive a reward for everything that we do on behalf of Jesus (i.e. for His glory and to help other people) if it is done with the right motive, intent, and attitude.
"Actually, being able to see God is my ultimate reward."
Which is what heaven is 😉
Well, Heaven is a "place," but God is a "Person," so in my mind they are not the same.
2 Corinthias 5:6-8 does not comment on whether we go directly to heaven or not, it is completely silent on the subject. Verse 7 indicates that Paul is talking about this life as he is talking about the walk in faith. He is equating faith with being at home with the Lord and absent from the body. This is basically being "in the Spirit" as per the common cliche. Also notice that in verse 9 he says "Wherefore, we labour, that, whether present of absent, we may be accepted of Him." Meaning that it is of this life because it is in this life that we labour.
The inference is there. To be absent from the body = to be present with the Lord. Every person who died in the Bible who was righteous in God's eyes went to Paradise. The moment that their spirit and soul left their body (this is what is meant by being absent from the body) they went somewhere specific based on their standing with God. Lazarus' standing with God was obviously righteous. But the rich man's standing with God was apparently unrighteous. Both parties went somewhere immediately at death. It is the same way for believers today, but the only difference is we go immediately to Heaven. But unbelievers go immediately to Hell at death just like the rich man. Nothing has changed. If we were living at the time before Christ first came to earth then we who are righteous before God would have gone to the Paradise side of Hades just like all the other righteous dead who lived before Jesus' first advent. But we live on the other side as it were of Christ's advent so we go straight to Heaven. Paradise has perhaps been relocated to Heaven.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveThe real part is our works passing through the fire. It is what Purgatory was based on, however, it evolved into someone entirely different.
Purgatory is a false doctrine based on something that is real. What we are discussing is what is real. It has nothing to do with purging or salvation, therefore it is completely and utterly seperate from the doctrine of Purgatory.I do not follow you, what is real?
"We are saved through fire". This was a slight slip of the tongue. However, I did mean "through", not "by means of". That sentence would be more correctly be stated as "Although we are saved our works still pass through fire". This is not a determining factor in salvation, as the Lazarus story says, "neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." The place of this is obviously not heaven because sin does not enter heaven. 2 Corinthians 5:10 states that it is before the judgement seat of Christ. That is, the fire is before heaven.
We are not saved "through" fire nor do we pass "through" any fire. This is still unscriptural. We are saved "through" faith (in Jesus Christ), not through any fire. The "works" (this is what you still do not grasp brother, with all due respect) are what are subjected to the fire or that pass through the fire [b]not the individual (i.e. the believer).
You persist in stating that the "person" is the object of the fire's scrutiny, but it is not, it is the person's "work" that he/she has done on behalf of the Kingdom of God. We are not going to have to pass through any fire. We are saved, sanctified, filled with the Holy Spirit, and bound for Heaven based on Christ's sacrifice/payment for our sins. There isn't any thing else that we need to undergo in order to be fit for Heaven. We are "already" the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. We are ready for Heaven. It is finished, nothing more has to be done for us to go to Heaven because Jesus has done it all for us. That is why Jesus sat down. We can boldly enter the Holiest i.e. the throne room of Almighty God in Heaven thanks to Jesus. We do not need to undergo any fiery purification process before going to Heaven.Hebrews 10:19
Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,Works are one of the ways sin is born. Fits of rage, drunkeness, gluttony, etc. are all works that are sinful. Other works, such as charity to the helpless, etc. are works that are glorifying to God. Now "the fire shall try every man's work of the sort it is." This work obvious includes both the glorifying works and the sins we have committed. The glorifying works are the ones that are not burned up and for which we receive reward. The works that are burned up are the sinful, or impurely done deeds that we have done and for these we "suffer loss". This is why 2 John 8 says "look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." Once again, this has nothing to do with salvation, but with rewards and punishment. This fire tests, but when the works "abide which he hath built thereupon" the fire does punish. This is similar to the process of purification of metals, which is why it is called purification. This is not a purification from sin because that was done on the cross by the blood of Jesus.
You are still associating the word "works" with sin. The word "works" is in 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-16 is not talking about the "works of the flesh" that are listed in Galatians 5:19-21. It is talking about works in the sense of the "things" that we do on behalf of the Kingdom of God as Christ's representatives in the earth, which inherently have a reward associated with them. We will receive a reward for everything that we do on behalf of Jesus (i.e. for His glory and to help other people) if it is done with the right motive, intent, and attitude.
"Actually, being able to see God is my ultimate reward."
Which is what heaven is 😉Well, Heaven is a "place," but God is a "Person," so in my mind they are not the same.
2 Corinthias 5:6-8 does not comment on whether we go directly to heaven or not, it is completely silent on the subject. Verse 7 indicates that Paul is talking about this life as he is talking about the walk in faith. He is equating faith with being at home with the Lord and absent from the body. This is basically being "in the Spirit" as per the common cliche. Also notice that in verse 9 he says "Wherefore, we labour, that, whether present of absent, we may be accepted of Him." Meaning that it is of this life because it is in this life that we labour.
The inference is there. To be absent from the body = to be present with the Lord. Every person who died in the Bible who was righteous in God's eyes went to Paradise. The moment that their spirit and soul left their body (this is what is meant by being absent from the body) they went somewhere specific based on their standing with God. Lazarus' standing with God was obviously righteous. But the rich man's standing with God was apparently unrighteous. Both parties went somewhere immediately at death. It is the same way for believers today, but the only difference is we go immediately to Heaven. But unbelievers go immediately to Hell at death just like the rich man. Nothing has changed. If we were living at the time before Christ first came to earth then we who are righteous before God would have gone to the Paradise side of Hades just like all the other righteous dead who lived before Jesus' first advent. But we live on the other side as it were of Christ's advent so we go straight to Heaven. Paradise has perhaps been relocated to Heaven. [/B]
You ignored everything I said in that paragraph. I CLEARLY stated "Although we are saved our works still pass through fire". Whay are you saying that I said the person passes through the fire? I didn't. The works are subjected to fire even though we are saved, that is what I have been saying the entire time.
Actually it is talking about both works of the flesh and works of the kingdom that are done in the flesh. 1 Corinthians 3 clearly states that we will suffer loss for some of our works. These are not of the kingdom if they are burned up.
I'm not sure why we are arguing about seeing God being the final reward. I think we both understand what is going on there.
The rich man in Lazarus's story was in Hades, not the lake of fire. Being absent from the body does not equal death as you are implying because, as I will reiterate, verse 9 states that we labour whether absent of present. This means it is while we are in the flesh. Also, we do not go straight to heaven, we first go to the judgement seat of Christ, from where we go either to heaven or Hades. The lake of fire has not been created yet, so unbelievers go to Hades and believers go to heaven.