Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I really don't care about the differences in the teachings. The fact is that before the Protestant Reformation, there was only the Catholic Church (with the exception of the Orthodox). You are most likely a member of a Protestant Church or one that came after the Reformation. Your church came from the Catholic Church.
Then why don't I hold to the traditions and doctrine of the Catholic Religion? I don't because I am not a Catholic. I hold to the teachings of the Bible which contradict the teachings of the Roman Catholic Religion.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Then why don't I hold to the traditions and doctrine of the Catholic Religion? I don't because I am not a Catholic. I hold to the teachings of the Bible which contradict the teachings of the Roman Catholic Religion.
I don't do the same job as my father, but I am still his son. Your religion has evolved away from the Catholic church.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlivePurgatory = Sheol/Hades. It is scriptually founded. Especially if you look into the whole Bible, that is including the deuterocanonicals that Protestants erroneously removed. Confessing sins to each other for healing is scripturally founded.
The traditions and doctrine of the Catholic Church are very inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible; therefore, Jesus could not have possibly founded the Catholic Religion. The doctrine of the church is found in the Bible. Show me where in the Bible is the word "Pope," "Vicar of Christ," "Eucharist," "Queen of Heaven," "Mother of God." The Bible states to call no man on earth your father (i.e. true Heavenly Father) yet the Pope is referred to as "Holy Father." According to the Bible Mary the (earthly) mother of Jesus had other children yet Mary is invariably referred to as the "Virgin Mary." Show me where in the Bible does it reference "Rosary beads," "Hail Mary," and telling a priest your sins so that one can be forgiven of them. True Christians have never killed anyone in a Crusade (those were Roman Catholics). But true Christians were killed for their faith in Jesus. Show me where in the Bible is the word "purgatory," "limbo," or "penance." In the Bible all believers in Jesus Christ are called kings and priests (in a theoretical sense because in the Old Testament the priest had certain privileges before God), but in the Catholic Religion only certain people are priests. The Spanish Inquisition atrocities were committed by Roman Catholics not by believers in Jesus Christ (i.e. Christians). Check out this link so that you can understand that Roman Catholics are not Christians. You are comparing apples and Ford Trucks.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Really. What church did Jesus create?
Really, read the Bible. But to go out of my way to answer your question, the only church that Jesus instituted is, (drum roll)
the church.
Notice that there isn't any denomination associated with Jesus' church. Believers/disciples/followers of Jesus Christ adopted the name Christian but, really, the word "Christian" is not a denomination, it is just what those who have faith in Jesus call themselves. Actually, the Bible states that the disciples were called Christians. I suppose that history records that the non-believers called the disciples Christians out of contempt for Christ and for them because they were His followers. The name has since come to stand for those who trust in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Purgatory = Sheol/Hades. It is scriptually founded. Especially if you look into the whole Bible, that is including the deuterocanonicals that Protestants erroneously removed. Confessing sins to each other for healing is scripturally founded.
Most Catholics are Christians. Association without Catholicism does not remove one's salvation. That comes from accepting Jesus, it doesn't matter what church you attend unless you violate the word of God.
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
--http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#II
Sheol/Hades does not equal Purgatory and no it is not Scripturally founded. The premise of the doctrine of purgatory is that a person who dies with certain sins (i.e. venial sins) is not worthy to go to Heaven, but must suffer temporarily in Purgatory in order to become purified for Heaven.
This is unscriptural.
Jesus Christ shed His precious, holy, sinless blood so that we could go to Heaven. Besides, we are saved by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:7-9
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
There is no reason for any human being to suffer in Hell for their sins so that they can go to Heaven. This is not possible anyway based on the clear teaching of the Bible which states that we are saved (from the wages of our sin i.e. eternal separation from God and punishment in Hell) by grace (God's underserved kindness and favor in sending His Son to pay for the wages of our sins) through faith (our faith in Jesus Christ and in what He has accomplished for us).
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Notice that the Bible clearly, and specifically states that we have nothing to do with our salvation. "...not of yourselves...." means that we are not saved by our own effort. Purging our sins in Purgatory would be a work and we are not saved by our works we are saved soley by what Christ did for us on the cross. Furthermore, praying for the dead is unscriptural. Your prayers are to no avail once they pass from this life into the next.
Deuterocanonicals? You mean the Apocrypha right? The Apocrypha (i.e.Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (or, Sirach), and Baruch) were not included in the canon of divinely-inspired writings because they were not divinely-inspired.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Really, read the Bible. But to go out of my way to answer your question, the only church that Jesus instituted is, (drum roll)the church.
Notice that there isn't any denomination associated with Jesus' church. Believers/disciples/followers of Jesus Christ adopted the name Christian but, really, the word "Christian" is not a denomination, it is just what those who have faith in Jesus call themselves. Actually, the Bible states that the disciples were called Christians. I suppose that history records that the non-believers called the disciples Christians out of contempt for Christ and for them because they were His followers. The name has since come to stand for those who trust in Jesus Christ for salvation from sin.
So 'Christian' is Jesus's church?
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
So anyone who believes Jesus died to save your sins is in the true church. Correct?
Anyone who is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation from their sins (not the Pope, Mary, their pastor, priest, prophet, evangelist, apostle, Bible Teacher, mother, father, personal good works or good deeds, baptism, Bible reading, financial giving to charity, church-going, etc.) is included in the body of Christ. Those who trust Jesus Christ for salvation from sin (and nothing else) is truly saved. Those who truly trust Jesus Christ will have lives that bear fruit and reflect their faith is some way that is consistent with what they say they believe. For example, they will not say that that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior in one breath and then say that they must go to purgatory first before they can go to Heaven in another breath. This is a contradiction.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveSheol/Hades has nothing to do with our works. It is penance and a purification by fire as per the story of Lazarus. Lazarus was in Hades, not the Lake of Fire. There was a difference. However, time spent in Sheol/Hades does not negate the need for grace and salvation through Jesus alone. I'm not saying that the entire Catholic doctrine on Purgatory are scriptural, but the parts I mentioned are.
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
--http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm#IISheol/Hades does not equal Purgatory and no it is not Scripturally founded. The premise of the doctrine of purgatory is that a person who dies with certain sins (i.e. venial sins) is not worthy to go to Heaven, but must suffer temporarily in Purgatory in order to become purified for Heaven.
This is unscriptural.
Jesus Christ shed His precious, holy, sinless blood so that we could go to Heaven. Besides, we are saved by grace through faith.
[B]Ephesians 2:7-9
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.There is no reason for any human being to suffer in Hell for their sins so that they can go to Heaven. This is not possible anyway based on the clear teaching of the Bible which states that we are saved (from the wages of our sin i.e. eternal separation from God and punishment in Hell) by grace (God's underserved kindness and favor in sending His Son to pay for the wages of our sins) through faith (our faith in Jesus Christ and in what He has accomplished for us).
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.Notice that the Bible clearly, and specifically states that we have nothing to do with our salvation. "...not of yourselves...." means that we are not saved by our own effort. Purging our sins in Purgatory would be a work and we are not saved by our works we are saved soley by what Christ did for us on the cross. Furthermore, praying for the dead is unscriptural. Your prayers are to no avail once they pass from this life into the next.
Deuterocanonicals? You mean the Apocrypha right? The Apocrypha (i.e.Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus (or, Sirach), and Baruch) were not included in the canon of divinely-inspired writings because they were not divinely-inspired. [/B]
The Deuterocanonical are not he Apocrypha. They are apart of the canon that Jesus himself used, that is the Septuagint. They were apart of the canon until Luther removed them erroneously.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Anyone who is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation from their sins (not the Pope, Mary, their pastor, priest, prophet, evangelist, apostle, Bible Teacher, mother, father, personal good works or good deeds, baptism, Bible reading, financial giving to charity, church-going, etc.) is included in the body of Christ. Those who trust Jesus Christ for salvation from sin (and nothing else) is truly saved. Those who truly trust Jesus Christ will have lives that bear fruit and reflect their faith is some way that is consistent with what they say they believe. For example, they will not say that that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior in one breath and then say that they must go to purgatory first before they can go to Heaven in another breath. This is a contradiction.
So if I horde my money, kill everyone I see, and spit on the Pope I will still be saved as long as I take Jesus as my one and only personal saviour?
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
So if I horde my money, kill everyone I see, and spit on the Pope I will still be saved as long as I take Jesus as my one and only personal saviour?
No, I do not believe that you would be saved simply because (in this contex) your heart is not right. You see, part and parcel of confessing Jesus Christ as Lord of your life is repenting of your sins. To repent means to "change your mind" about sinning, to make a 180 degree change as it were from a life of "deliberate" sin, to a life of holiness. God knows your heart. If you are truly sorry for your sins and then confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (believing that God raised Him from the dead), according to the Bible you will be saved. But the Bible states:
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
So, God knows your heart, and whether we are sincere about obeying Jesus Christ or not. In the scenario that you provided, I do not believe that you would be saved even if you did what the Bible states that we must do to be saved because your heart is not right. A truly, repentent heart doesn't look for loopholes for committing sin. You know what I mean? A heart like the one you describe in this situation is devious and impenitent.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
No, I do not believe that you would be saved simply because (in this contex) your heart is not right. You see, part and parcel of confessing Jesus Christ as Lord of your life is repenting of your sins. To repent means to "change your mind" about sinning, to make a 180 degree change as it were from a life of "deliberate" sin, to a life of holiness. God knows your heart. If you are truly sorry for your sins and then confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (believing that God raised Him from the dead), according to the Bible you will be saved. But the Bible states:[B]Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.So, God knows your heart, and whether we are sincere about obeying Jesus Christ or not. In the scenario that you provided, I do not believe that you would be saved even if you did what the Bible states that we must do to be saved because your heart is not right. A truly, repentent heart doesn't look for loopholes for committing sin. You know what I mean? A heart like the one you describe in this situation is devious and impenitent. [/B]
Of course. But I repented everytime for my actions. would I be saved?
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Of course. But I repented everytime for my actions. would I be saved?
If you were sincere. God knows your heart, I do not (in this scenario). I can only judge or speculate your heart's condition based on what you have told me. But when you stand before God your heart (your true intent, motive, and attitude) will be exposed. So, just make an effort to not sin, but if you do repent of it.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
If you were sincere. God knows your heart, I do not (in this scenario). I can only judge or speculate your heart's condition based on what you have told me. But when you stand before God your heart (your true intent, motive, and attitude) will be exposed. So, just make an effort to not sin, but if you do repent of it.
So if I killed you and was sincerely sorry, repented, killed another person, repented, etc. I would still go to heaven?
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
So if I killed you and was sincerely sorry, repented, killed another person, repented, etc. I would still go to heaven?
If you were sincere. God is a God of hearts. He "weighs" the heart. If your repent with your lips but are not truly contrite in your heart, you will be condemned. You must bear "fruits" of repentance. In other words, your life must correspond with what you say with your mouth.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
If you were sincere. God is a God of hearts. He "weighs" the heart. If your repent with your lips but are not truly contrite in your heart, you will be condemned. You must bear "fruits" of repentance. In other words, your life must correspond with what you say with your mouth.
So I would go to hell since I repeated my sin after I repented for it?
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
So I would go to hell since I repeated my sin after I repented for it?
You are fixated on the sin and I keep trying to get you to focus on your heart. It is your heart that condemns you. You can repent all you want but if your heart belies what you say with your mouth then you will be condemned before God. God will judge your actions (i.e your thoughts, words, and actions) in relation to your heart.