Originally posted by krisblaze
I never said that they don't have stories, obviously any movie's going to have a story. I just don't see why you'd watch these movies for the story, when there are so many better movies out there.Which of these movies' stories did you find so compelling?
Originally posted by krisblaze
On a comic-book forum? Perhaps.Among movie critics at large? Not so.
Though this proves nothing. Your 'Majority Fallacy' falls flat, as it always does.
How is the logic of majority consensus a fallacy? Look at the ****in box office. Marvel movies are THE biggest moneymakers, consistently.
Good Box Office + Good Reviews = Usually Good Movie
Once again, your opinions are in the minority. Not just in this board, but also in the general audience.
Originally posted by Firefly218
Check your facts. Every single Marvel movie has been fresh on Rotten Tomatoes and had at least above 50 metascore.How is the logic of majority consensus a fallacy? Look at the ****in box office. Marvel movies are THE biggest moneymakers, consistently.
Good Box Office + Good Reviews = Usually Good Movie
Once again, your opinions are in the minority. Not just in this board, but also in the general audience.
A movie doesn't have to have a great story for it to be fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. The majority of critics simply need to give it more than 5 out of 10 more than half the time.
You think that because I think a movie has good actors, decent effects but a bad story, it should get 0/10 or something? A movie can still be 7/10 or 3/4 and lack a story.
If you look at the reviews of Captain America, you'll see my qualms reflected in the top critics' response. If your best response to my argument, that the Marvel movies have OK actors, OK scenes and BAD story, is that the majority of the public considered it better than 50%, then say no more. I agree that they deserve a better grade than 5/10.
Your argument does, however, not address my problems with the movies' poor story.
Finally, as always, the fallacy of popular opinion. It doesn't prove anything, especially not in relation TO THE MOVIE'S STORY.
Originally posted by krisblaze
No need for the attitude and swearing.A movie doesn't have to have a great story for it to be fresh on Rotten Tomatoes. The majority of critics simply need to give it more than 5 out of 10 more than half the time.
You think that because I think a movie has good actors, decent effects but a bad story, it should get 0/10 or something? A movie can still be 7/10 or 3/4 and lack a story.
If you look at the reviews of Captain America, you'll see my qualms reflected in the top critics' response. If your best response to my argument, that the Marvel movies have OK actors, OK scenes and BAD story, is that the majority of the public considered it better than 50%, then say no more. I agree that they deserve a better grade than 5/10.
Your argument does, however, not address my problems with the movies' poor story.
Finally, as always, the fallacy of popular opinion. It doesn't prove anything, especially not in relation TO THE MOVIE'S STORY.
The quality of a movies story is subjective (in the eye of the beholder).
Let's look at the facts:
1st fact - Marvel movies are very well reviewed. This means on average, they're well liked.
2nd fact - Marvel movies are consistently successful, looking at the box office numbers.
3rd fact - A movie's story is a crucial element, that pretty much determines it's quality.
Adding those 3 facts together, we can make an educated assumption that most of the general audience enjoys the stories told in Marvel movies.
1st fact - This is only true in the sense that consistently getting 5-7/10 is 'very well reviewed'. They're liked, but not well liked. You should also note that the sites that gather consensus of a movie add all grades onto a 1-100% scale. Movies are given fresh ratings with 2/4 stars.
2nd fact - I agree.
3rd fact - I disagree. Story is not crucial to a movie's success or quality. I think that these are movies who have achieved success in spite of lacking stories.
I agree with your assessment, the Marvel movies are on average liked and receive average to good reviews.
While your conclusion is sound you're going through some wild logical inconsistencies. Just because a movie is well received, and story is sometimes crucial to a movie, does not mean that a movie has a good story.
Popularity is extremely fickle and the Marvel movies are enjoying success due to certain popular trends and timing, among other things. The same goes for any movie that does well in the box office. A good movie is not always well received, especially not by its contemporary peers.
But that is all well and great, we at the very least agree that the Marvel movies have been enjoyed by the audience at large. You have still, however, not done a single thing as to explain why the stories are good.
This started with my question as to why anyone would watch these movies for the story, and not the actors/special effects. The response to my post has been unequivocally about the movie's box office or critic success. Which does nothing to address the movie's stories or lack there of. As I mentioned earlier the one thing that the reviewers criticize these movies for, are their lack of quality stories or a coherent plot! You did not address this.
You're claiming a movie can maintain its quality without having a good story?
You do realize that the entire purpose of a movie is to tell a story. The actors, special effects, cinematography, music, dialogue all work together to tell a story.
A movie is a series of moving images, scenes and shots that tell some sort of story.
If the story of a movie sucks, it's entire purpose is rendered void. The movie is irrelevant, pointless without a story.
I can maybe understand if you don't like Marvel movie stories, as everyone has their own opinions. But you can't say the success of Marvel movies has nothing to do with their stories. Other people like them, whether or not you'd like to believe it.
So once again I repeat, your opinion is in the minority.
Originally posted by JayDaDon
I will actually wait til I see that one but all signs are saying its one of Marvel's best.
Ah I don't go by Film Reviewers. They went on about how great IM3 was so I was really hyped for it and then really disappointed.
I personally don't think GOTG will be my thing. The tone seems too much like IM3. And never read any of the GOTG comic books so not a fan anyway. Maybe it will surprise me but unless everyone on these boards raves about it, I won't be rushing to the theatre myself.
Darth Power, who did?
From what I can tell IM3 received the same response as the first two movies.
Originally posted by Firefly218
You're claiming a movie can maintain its quality without having a good story?You do realize that the entire purpose of a movie is to tell a story. The actors, special effects, cinematography, music, dialogue all work [B] together
to tell a story.A movie is a series of moving images, scenes and shots that tell some sort of story.
If the story of a movie sucks, it's entire purpose is rendered void. The movie is irrelevant, pointless without a story.
I can maybe understand if you don't like Marvel movie stories, as everyone has their own opinions. But you can't say the success of Marvel movies has nothing to do with their stories. Other people like them, whether or not you'd like to believe it.
So once again I repeat, your opinion is in the minority. [/B]
One would think that a fourth reiteration of my argument would be enough to prevent you from putting words in my mouth. I suppose not 🙂
I'm claiming a movie can be successful and still have a poor story.
Most people will claim that how 'good' a movie is is a subjective thing, which is true in part. There are degrees of quality in anything. My wobbly table is suitable for me, but in the eyes of carpenter father it's a shitty table. In a sense the table is still a good table because it suits my needs, but it still not necessarily a quality table.
I can say that the success of the Marvel movies have little to do with their story. The success of a movie has a much to do with promotion, timing and popular trends as the quality of the movie. That's why certain films become popular beyond their time and why contemporary reviews do not always accurately determine the quality of the movie.
Movie critics, who give the movie a good score, still criticize its lacking story. My opinion that the Marvel movies have done well despite a lacking story is not in the minority. Appeal to popularity is a logical inconsistency.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Ah I don't go by Film Reviewers. They went on about how great IM3 was so I was really hyped for it and then really disappointed.I personally don't think GOTG will be my thing. The tone seems too much like IM3. And never read any of the GOTG comic books so not a fan anyway. Maybe it will surprise me but unless everyone on these boards raves about it, I won't be rushing to the theatre myself.
See the thing people need to learn is how to tell a quality movie even if it isn't for them. Like if a movie is 90% beloved by the world and critics, and I hated it, its still one of the best regardless. Im3 is the same strange boat as Man of steel, it split opinions right down the middle and was still very successful. But yeah, ill find out sarurday.
Originally posted by krisblaze
One would think that a fourth reiteration of my argument would be enough to prevent you from putting words in my mouth. I suppose not 🙂
This is the internet. Everything you type and publish is recorded. Below is exactly what you said 😄
Originally posted by krisblaze
3rd fact - I disagree. Story is not crucial to a movie's success or quality.
Originally posted by krisblaze
I'm claiming a movie can be successful and still have a poor story.
That's true, but you're also claiming that a movie can be quality without story. Movies like Transformers are somewhat successful, but universally considered terrible quality because of poor story. Marvel movies have both success and good reviews.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Most people will claim that how 'good' a movie is is a subjective thing, which is true in part. There are degrees of quality in anything. My wobbly table is suitable for me, but in the eyes of carpenter father it's a shitty table. In a sense the table is still a good table because it suits my needs, but it still not necessarily a quality table.I can say that the success of the Marvel movies have little to do with their story. The success of a movie has a much to do with promotion, timing and popular trends as the quality of the movie. That's why certain films become popular beyond their time and why contemporary reviews do not always accurately determine the quality of the movie.
Movie critics, who give the movie a good score, still criticize its lacking story. My opinion that the Marvel movies have done well despite a lacking story is not in the minority. Appeal to popularity is a logical inconsistency.
Frankly, my point remains. Your opinion, that Marvel movies are the equivalent of "a wobbly table", is in the minority. A majority of reviewers have given Marvel movies favorable scores. Fans scores for Marvel movies have been outstanding. Based on 31839 fan reviews, Iron Man has a 4.9/5 stars rating. Based on 24222 fan reviews, Captain America has a 4.3/5 stars rating. Based on 3935 fan reviews, Thor has a 4.2/5 stars rating. Based on 20303 fan reviews, Captain America 2 has a 4.95/5 stars rating. Based on 17840 fan reviews, The Avengers has a pretty much 5/5 stars rating. Based on 12841 fan reviews, Thor 2 has a 4.5/5 stars rating.
Consensus opinion is the best measurement of quality.
Originally posted by JayDaDon
See the thing people need to learn is how to tell a quality movie even if it isn't for them. Like if a movie is 90% beloved by the world and critics, and I hated it, its still one of the best regardless. Im3 is the same strange boat as Man of steel, it split opinions right down the middle and was still very successful. But yeah, ill find out sarurday.
Thing is I really don't think IM3 was loved by the world. Critics, yes. From Fans? (Of comic book movies not just fans of comics), I've not seen it.
LOTR is an example of a movie series which I never particularly enjoyed, but I can't deny they are loved by the rest of the world.
MOS did seem like people loved it or hated it. But IM3 seemed like people "Liked" it or thought it was just OK or just Hated it. And btw despite IM3 doubling the box office of MOS, MOS actually outsold it on DVD/Blu-Ray Sales. So that should show that the box office and hype for IM3 really didn't reflect how many people truly loved the film.
Anyway will see. But I have a feeling that you're right that people will generally like/love GOTG, but I still don't think it will be my thing.
My kind of Marvel movie is CA:TWS, which out of all the recent Marvel movies had the most serious tone, deepest plot and most epic action sequences.
John Slattery To Return As 'Howard Stark' In ANT-MAN
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=106208
Originally posted by Kazenji
John Slattery To Return As 'Howard Stark' In ANT-MANhttp://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/JoshWildingNewsAndReviews/news/?a=106208
Would have preferred Dominic cooper. But I guess they are going for an older Howard Stark, so that makes sense.
Rapper T.I. joins
http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/ti-joins-the-cast-of-ant-man-162