ANIME Fighters VS AMERICAN Superheros

Originally posted by jimBOFH
The word paralyzed isn't used, but Goku does hit Nappa in the spine, after which Nappa requests Vegeta's assistance because he can't get up.

Yeah, but that's just getting injured temporarily from one blow, he was back on his feet later IIRC

Vegeta may or may not have known, but the Dragonballs are supposed to be indestructible- however if they'd been in the city they would have been buried under tonnes of rubble and they weren't aware of the Dragon Radar.

I think the thing about them being indestructible was only in the anime, but I could be wrong

Exactly- hence degree of control is important. Vegeta fires the Final Flash from above Cell, but is able to focus and direct it so it hits Cell but not the Earth. Goku on the other hand can't do that with the Kamehameha, and has to fire it from ground level to avoid hitting the planet.

Okay - what's your point?

Really are u telling me that the stars changing position is ur best argument?

No, but considering you haven't yet refuted it, I don't see why it's not a good one.

Thats just so UNBELIEVABLY weak. IF surfer or the runner had been been moving from galaxy to galaxy or solar system to solar system it would have almost definitely been mentioned.

Why? It's not important to the story or the context of the fight. There would be no point in mentioning it other than showing it in the background.

Surfer against midnight sun. The position of the stars "change" just as much as they do in the runner fight. Guess it must be faster than light

Except there are those ships in the background in two scans, so we know it's the same general area, and they're flipping and diving all over the place, the camera is rapidly changing angles to follow them - in the Runner fight it's viewed from the side with the same angle for most of the fight.

Or here between surfer and supreskrull must also be fighting faster than light.

They're fighting near the sun - we have a frame of reference. Again, the camera changes angles much more than in the Runner fight.

*Note that when I say "camera" I mean the point of view from which we're seeing events. I don't actually think there's a camera there

In denial? Lulz, im one of the biggest surfer fans on this forum. I simply wont resort to straight up laughable arguments in order to prove he has an ability.

Laughable? FTL speed + FTL reactions = FTL fighting. It's that simple. You're trying to needlessly overcomplicate things.

Also thanos did not block fallen ones bullrush from behind. Fallen one was heading straight for him and he threw up a forcefield. Further that is not even close to being evidence of the type of hand speed that u wud attribute to thanos due to his being able to punch captain marvel from the moon to earth. Thanos even found it hard to land punches on gamora who is certainly not fast enough to dodge a person who can strike at close to light speed.

Gamora has that PIS "uber - martial arts" ability like PC Karate Kid who is human but can fight Kryptonians and Flashes. Fallen One was just one example, although I admit I got his fight confused with one with Jack of Hearts (where I got the "behind" thing),

Furthermore I don't think a timeframe for Captain Mar-vell being punched and landing on earth was actually given.

The same goes for hulk who though to u can strike at faster than escape velocity finds it hard to hit street levelers and peak humans.

You mean Spider-man, who has precognition? Or other guys, like Daredevil? There's a bit of suspension of disbelief involved here, I mean Hulk regularly catches tank shells and missiles so he should be able to hit guys like Daredevil (unless you think Daredevil is faster than a tank shell) - they just write the fights to be more "fair" since it's no fun if the street level hero gets KO'd in the first second, even though he realistically should be. See Spider-man vs. Firelord etc.

Anyway, claiming that the Hulk can't punch/throw things at escape velocity when he has punched people into orbit is denying the very laws of gravity. It's asinine, basically the same as claiming that Terrax can't destroy a planet (when we've seen him do it) just because he's attacked people who are less durable than a planet and not killed them

Im not selectively ignoring evidence at all. No form of useful evidence of anything has been provided. Ur simply taking concepts that apply in the real world and putting them in the context of comics where they dont apply

And they don't apply why? Oh, that's right.... because you say so. I wasn't aware you wrote the comics and could decide what applies and what doesn't

🙄

Ur analogy is so way off its just laughable. Its common knowledge that some very basic concepts of real world science are reproduced in comics. Hence a mountain is heavy in the real world just as it is heavy in a comic. However, being able pick up and to throw that same mountain without it collapsing under its own weight is something that though very possible in a comic is impossible in the real world.

Then why do writers feel the need to insert explanations like "tactile telekinesis"? If it goes without saying that mountains won't crumble under their own weight, what's the point of inventing that power?

Its due to differences like this that in comics people are able to have conversations in space, move objects the size of planets etc.

Well I usually interpret conversations in space as some sort of telepathy (works most of the time) - but seriously, you're claiming that since comics violate the laws of physics a lot, then our physics cannot be used to try to explain them. This would only be possible if the two sets of physics were mutually exclusive - meaning that not only would they be able to do stuff that's impossible to our physics, but they would have to be not able to do things that are possible with our physics. Until you can point out an example of the latter (like, say, Newton's 1st law never working - remember, even one example of it working nullifies this) then your argument is worthless. Otherwise, you admit that real physics apply in general, except when they are specifically shown to be violated.

Guys like hulk,thor and thanos being able to hit people into space while having absolutely no previous history of having the striking speed needed to do that by real world standards but rather being renowned for there brute strength shows that speed plays little part in it.

What kind of "previous history" would you accept here? Since hitting people into space is exactly the kind of feat that would be used to determine such a thing. Otherwise, you're claiming that the very laws of Newtonian motion are arbitrary - if that were true, life, energy, and matter as we know it would not even be able to exist.

Saying "oh but scientifically that is the only way it could have happened" and ignoring the fact that comics are full of scientific impossibilities is just a terribly weak argument.

It would be, if one of those "scientific impossibilities" was stated or even implied to be associated with said feat, but it's not. Certain things violating the laws of physics in fiction doesn't mean you can just throw out said laws whenever they're inconvenient.

For example, if Superman's FTL punch had a caption saying something like "Superman's punch combined with Wonder Woman's magical forcefield creates a space-warp that launches her faster than the speed of light" then there would be an explanation for how the punch would not be FTL. A scientifically impossible explanation, but an explanation nonetheless. However, there was no such thing, so we use what science is known to us.

My point was that the majority of the finishing attacks are weak by design, or they are carefully aimed away from the planet surface.
This is pretty much always the case with Goku's Kamehameha in the later fights. Vegeta's Final Flash was an example of one finishing attack that IS well above city busting level, but because Vegeta controls it much more precisely it doesn't damage anything except Cell.
For attacks which aren't able to be controlled to that extent, they have to be limited in power so as not to inflict collateral damage.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

No, but considering you haven't yet refuted it, I don't see why it's not a good one.

Why? It's not important to the story or the context of the fight. There would be no point in mentioning it other than showing it in the background.

Except there are those ships in the background in two scans, so we know it's the same general area, and they're flipping and diving all over the place, the camera is rapidly changing angles to follow them - in the Runner fight it's viewed from the side with the same angle for most of the fight.

They're fighting near the sun - we have a frame of reference. Again, the camera changes angles much more than in the Runner fight.

*Note that when I say "camera" I mean the point of view from which we're seeing events. I don't actually think there's a camera there

Laughable? FTL speed + FTL reactions = FTL fighting. It's that simple. You're trying to needlessly overcomplicate things.

Gamora has that PIS "uber - martial arts" ability like PC Karate Kid who is human but can fight Kryptonians and Flashes. Fallen One was just one example, although I admit I got his fight confused with one with Jack of Hearts (where I got the "behind" thing),

Furthermore I don't think a timeframe for Captain Mar-vell being punched and landing on earth was actually given.

You mean Spider-man, who has precognition? Or other guys, like Daredevil? There's a bit of suspension of disbelief involved here, I mean Hulk regularly catches tank shells and missiles so he should be able to hit guys like Daredevil (unless you think Daredevil is faster than a tank shell) - they just write the fights to be more "fair" since it's no fun if the street level hero gets KO'd in the first second, even though he realistically should be. See Spider-man vs. Firelord etc.

Anyway, claiming that the Hulk can't punch/throw things at escape velocity when he has punched people into orbit is denying the very laws of gravity. It's asinine, basically the same as claiming that Terrax can't destroy a planet (when we've seen him do it) just because he's attacked people who are less durable than a planet and not killed them

And they don't apply why? Oh, that's right.... because you say so. I wasn't aware you wrote the comics and could decide what applies and what doesn't

🙄

Then why do writers feel the need to insert explanations like "tactile telekinesis"? If it goes without saying that mountains won't crumble under their own weight, what's the point of inventing that power?

Well I usually interpret conversations in space as some sort of telepathy (works most of the time) - but seriously, you're claiming that since comics violate the laws of physics a lot, then our physics cannot be used to try to explain them. This would only be possible if the two sets of physics were [b]mutually exclusive - meaning that not only would they be able to do stuff that's impossible to our physics, but they would have to be not able to do things that are possible with our physics. Until you can point out an example of the latter (like, say, Newton's 1st law never working - remember, even one example of it working nullifies this) then your argument is worthless. Otherwise, you admit that real physics apply in general, except when they are specifically shown to be violated.

What kind of "previous history" would you accept here? Since hitting people into space is exactly the kind of feat that would be used to determine such a thing. Otherwise, you're claiming that the very laws of Newtonian motion are arbitrary - if that were true, life, energy, and matter as we know it would not even be able to exist.

It would be, if one of those "scientific impossibilities" was stated or even implied to be associated with said feat, but it's not. Certain things violating the laws of physics in fiction doesn't mean you can just throw out said laws whenever they're inconvenient.

For example, if Superman's FTL punch had a caption saying something like "Superman's punch combined with Wonder Woman's magical forcefield creates a space-warp that launches her faster than the speed of light" then there would be an explanation for how the punch would not be FTL. A scientifically impossible explanation, but an explanation nonetheless. However, there was no such thing, so we use what science is known to us. [/B]

No it would be improtant because if as u say the were crossing galaxies as they were fighting it would be an indication of the speed they were fighting at and would have definitely been mentioned if only to provide some context on the impressiveness of the fight.

The ships in the background are actually in motion so they cant be used as a point of reference instead based on ur logic they are also moving at FTL speeds. And also in the runner fight they did change "camera" angles quite a few times. At times it was from the side with surfer on the left and runner on the right. then theyd switch it up showing runner in the distance and more defintion on surfer. Then we would see it from runners point of view with surfer in the distance and runner having more definition.Heck there were even points where we were at runners back and not front. So yeah the surfer runner fight changed "camera angles just as much if not more than the midnight sun fight.

Also in the superskrull fight the sun is only showed in the first scan. In the second scan, the stars change and the sun is not shown at all. Therefore according to u they must have been moving at FTL light speed. Also the change in "camera" angles is comparable to that of the runner fight.

ITs not PIS when thanos hasnt ever shown h2h speed to go toe to toe with those kind of characters and come out on top. Also characters like Gamora and Karate kid have the skill to "tag" superfast characters not match them h2h speedwise. Most superfast characters are reckless and and are tagged by characters much slower than them because of it. And yes no time frame was given but it happens in like two panels. If we were to take thanos regular hand speed and and determine that that was the speed he initiated the punch with, captain marvel would have been in space for days.

Hulk being unable to hit street levelers is well established in comics and spiderman is not the only example. he has the same problems with guys wolverine and captain america. A

And no ur terrax example is way off again. Terrax being able to destroy a planet is in line with his given powerset,history, an power level. Therefore him hitting someone and not killing the person just shows that he did not hit the person with force comparable to his planet busting hits.( also ive never seen terrax axe someone directly and the person was unphased). However hulk punching people into orbit based on his speed is not in line with his powerset or history because more often than not hulk is portrayed as a slow brick character.

Tactile telekinesis is something that most superstrong characters dont have. And yet a majority of them are able to perform feats in which the objects should have crumbled under there own weight.

And seriously u did a great job of missing the whole point. im not claiming that since comics violate the laws of physics alot we cant use them to explain some instances. So ur whole explanation of events being mutually exclusive is completely irrelevant. Im claiming that in this PARTICULAR( punching speed in relation to distance) instance comics continuously ignore the laws of physics. Hulk is not the only instance of a character with little history of speed being able to punch another character into orbit or even further distances. Thanos has done it, Thor has done it, Ms Marvel has done it(punch rogue into orbit) heck even freaking Rhino was able to punch Nova into orbit. None of these characters throughout there history have been portrayed as characters that can strike at superspeeds. However All these characters, share a particular trait and that is there immense strength, NOT there speed but there strength. The point is that there is a HISTORY of characters performing such feats without speed. Therefore in cases like this it cannot be assumed that it was the speed of the punch because numerous characters who DO NOT have the speed neccessary to perform such feats in reality have been able to perform them.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Please post the scan where he was "paralyzed"

Please show me "skilled street levelers" beating Tony "throughout his whole career"

Oh and here's a scan of Iron Man's fighting speed:

http://img176.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imreaction1sr7.jpg

Here he is using his targeting programs to hit meteors, which move hundreds of times faster than sound:

http://img79.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imauto1qy5.jpg
http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imauto2wc6.jpg

Here he is dodging lasers:

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/6513/imreaction2um1.jpg

So yeah, he's not slow

Considering their encounters in Civil War, yes.

Did I ever say Hulk could punch at lightspeed? No. Stop putting words in my mouth.

What I mean by "exaggerated" is this:

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/9792/genkidamablast6yl0.gif

That is the scan of Goku's Genki Dama hitting Frieza from space.

Looks like a pretty big explosion, right?

Now here's a view of the damage from the ground:

http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5154/genkidamablastradiusdl8.gif

Not exactly as big as the first scan would indicate

And? What is this supposed to prove? Obviously he could have destroyed the dragonballs if they were nearby - and Vegeta obviously wasn't talking about only that attack when he bothered Nappa about ruining the planet.

With attacks that can cover multiple cities it would only take a few hours to blast the surface of the entire planet.

And where was Roshi watching the explosion? All he knew about it was what was on the news. He was talking about how powerful they were because he [b]felt their ki.

If the explosion was really as big as depicted in the view from space, it would do a lot more than just damage a few cities - it would be able to take out an entire country, cause earthquakes all over the world (not just in one area), and the flash would be bright enough to be seen halfway across the planet (which it obviously was not, since they were describing it as an earthquake)[/B]

Goku kaio ken cheapshotted him in his spine, Nappa layed on the ground not moving anything but his arm and barely. Goku then told Vegeta to take Nappa home because he would not be fighting again. The anime used the word paralyzed but its not a reach at all considering what was shown.

I just named you two off the top of my head in the past year alone, both left him helpless with his facemask popped off. Anyway my point wasn't that Stark can't beat street level guys but that he is not going around blitzing people at crazy speeds.

I knew you were going to post that, its the same single scan everyone posts. If it was reversed you'd be yelling 'outlier' again. All it even shows is Stark's armor making calculations and then a punch, it doesn't even say how fast his punch went. and throwing one punch anyway doesn't mean you can block,dodge,attack,etc at that same level of speed. He's never shown that. As far as the laser dodge that is not impressive. and its not even Extremis. Cap, Bucky, Parker, Daredevil, the list goes on have all dodged Random Laser # 3.

http://s4.tinypic.com/2i90zlw.jpg Here is a more current showing from him and Cap. I never said he was slow anyway, I said outside of combat and space its debatable but in combat he is not faster.

In Civil War he held his own decently enough, after Civil War when he was pissed he beat him down and had him helpless.

You implied Hulk punched at light speed or close to it, backtrack from it now but you know what you were implying.

Its not exaggerated, you can't just discredit whats on panel and call it "exaggerated" when it suits you. That was a spirit bomb and it hit the ocean. The hole in the water was about the same size as the bomb and it filled up with water seconds later. More importantly this isn't the Freeza saga. This is before dbz became notorious for loopholes. They are also different because the shot from space on Namek was the explosion of the Spirit Bomb, the shot from space with Nappa is Nappa's actual attack itself.

Yeah Roshi felt Nappa's ki when he used the attack, and his reaction comes immediately after hearing the newscaster say that 'ALL cities near the incredible earthquakes epicenter'. Roshi knows all the cities are gone which the reader also knows from the completely obliterated landscape surrounding Nappa and the shot from space. We see the zfighters see the explosion from random places on the planet, there is no reason to think it was some small isolated earthquake, the newscaster says 'scientists are baffled at what caused an earthquake of such incredible magnitude' and by this point we had already seen Nappa shake the planet by powering up.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yeah, but that's just getting injured temporarily from one blow, he was back on his feet later IIRC

No, he never moved anything but an arm again.

Is soem guy actuayl sayign iron Man cud take DBZ fighters????

King Piccolo wud tear starks little tin can of a suit apart ! neve mind the higher ups like the ginyus, or freiza !!

Originally posted by TheBadguy

I just named you two off the top of my head in the past year alone, both left him helpless with his facemask popped off.

In Civil War he held his own decently enough, after Civil War when he was pissed he beat him down and had him helpless.

Originally posted by Jugglenaut
Capt beating Stark when the Vision crippled his armor is a legit showing for any peak human against IM? 😱 😱

Read next time, I was talking about Parker there.

Originally posted by jimBOFH
My point was that the majority of the finishing attacks are weak by design, or they are carefully aimed away from the planet surface.
This is pretty much always the case with Goku's Kamehameha in the later fights. Vegeta's Final Flash was an example of one finishing attack that IS well above city busting level, but because Vegeta controls it much more precisely it doesn't damage anything except Cell.
For attacks which aren't able to be controlled to that extent, they have to be limited in power so as not to inflict collateral damage.

Yet they still hurt enemies if they hit....

No it would be improtant because if as u say the were crossing galaxies as they were fighting

When did I ever say that? Stop strawmanning me.

it would be an indication of the speed they were fighting at and would have definitely been mentioned if only to provide some context on the impressiveness of the fight.

It wasn't mean to be an "impressive" fight - it was meant to show Runner's superiority to Surfer. You can't just ignore what is shown because it's not made a big deal of. If there's some huge two - page spread featuring a bunch of characters fighting, and in one corner you see character A KO'ing character B, you can't say it didn't happen because it was just shown in the background and no attention was drawn to it.

The ships in the background are actually in motion so they cant be used as a point of reference instead based on ur logic they are also moving at FTL speeds.

Would make no sense unless they were matching their orientations with Surfer and MNS

And also in the runner fight they did change "camera" angles quite a few times

Yes, but not in the first few panels, and that's all that's needed to establish a background change.

. At times it was from the side with surfer on the left and runner on the right. then theyd switch it up showing runner in the distance and more defintion on surfer. Then we would see it from runners point of view with surfer in the distance and runner having more definition.Heck there were even points where we were at runners back and not front. So yeah the surfer runner fight changed "camera angles just as much if not more than the midnight sun fight.

Doesn't matter, since all we need is this scan:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer4.jpg

Panels 4-5 and 5-6 transition

Also in the superskrull fight the sun is only showed in the first scan. In the second scan, the stars change and the sun is not shown at all. Therefore according to u they must have been moving at FTL light speed.

Not necessarily, but fast enough to get pretty far away from the sun. Thank you for proving my point for me.

Also the change in "camera" angles is comparable to that of the runner fight.

How so?

ITs not PIS when thanos hasnt ever shown h2h speed to go toe to toe with those kind of characters and come out on top. Also characters like Gamora and Karate kid have the skill to "tag" superfast characters not match them h2h speedwise.Most superfast characters are reckless and and are tagged by characters much slower than them because of it

See, you answered your own question. Thank you for doing my work for me.

And yes no time frame was given but it happens in like two panels.

A panel is not a measure of time - two panels could mean anything, depending on context.

If we were to take thanos regular hand speed and and determine that that was the speed he initiated the punch with, captain marvel would have been in space for days.

Please tell me what Thanos' "regular hand speed" is, and how you determined it.

Hulk being unable to hit street levelers is well established in comics and spiderman is not the only example. he has the same problems with guys wolverine and captain america.

Because they're jobbers. Captain America has KO'd Hulk and hurt Onslaught. Do you accept that as realistic? Don't even get me started on Wolverine.

And no ur terrax example is way off again. Terrax being able to destroy a planet is in line with his given powerset,history, an power level. Therefore him hitting someone and not killing the person just shows that he did not hit the person with force comparable to his planet busting hits.( also ive never seen terrax axe someone directly and the person was unphased).

Sentry

. However hulk punching people into orbit based on his speed is not in line with his powerset or history because more often than not hulk is portrayed as a slow brick character.

You seem to be using a very vague standard here. Hulk has plenty of speed feats - just because he's more well - known for his strength doesn't mean he's not fast.

Tactile telekinesis is something that most superstrong characters dont have. And yet a majority of them are able to perform feats in which the objects should have crumbled under there own weight.

Way to completely miss the point. What I was trying to say was that if writers accepted that weight problem as something to take for granted, then why would they even come up with something like TTK to try to explain it?

And seriously u did a great job of missing the whole point. im not claiming that since comics violate the laws of physics alot we cant use them to explain some instances. So ur whole explanation of events being mutually exclusive is completely irrelevant. Im claiming that in this PARTICULAR( punching speed in relation to distance) instance comics continuously ignore the laws of physics. Hulk is not the only instance of a character with little history of speed being able to punch another character into orbit or even further distances. Thanos has done it, Thor has done it, Ms Marvel has done it(punch rogue into orbit) heck even freaking Rhino was able to punch Nova into orbit. None of these characters throughout there history have been portrayed as characters that can strike at superspeeds

Yet those feats prove they can.... if there was some kind of weird explanation given and stated they couldn't, I'd buy it.

However All these characters, share a particular trait and that is there immense strength, NOT there speed but there strength. The point is that there is a HISTORY of characters performing such feats without speed. Therefore in cases like this it cannot be assumed that it was the speed of the punch because numerous characters who DO NOT have the speed neccessary to perform such feats in reality have been able to perform them.

The fact that they did perform said feats proves they have that speed, at least for a single strike. You can be as strong as you want but you won't hit someone past escape velocity if you don't hit them fast enough.

Goku kaio ken cheapshotted him in his spine, Nappa layed on the ground not moving anything but his arm and barely. Goku then told Vegeta to take Nappa home because he would not be fighting again. The anime used the word paralyzed but its not a reach at all considering what was shown.

I asked for a scan, apparently that was too much work for you.

I just named you two off the top of my head in the past year alone, both left him helpless with his facemask popped off. Anyway my point wasn't that Stark can't beat street level guys but that he is not going around blitzing people at crazy speeds.

He will in a bloodlusted, CIS-free fight, as specified by the forum rules

I knew you were going to post that, its the same single scan everyone posts. If it was reversed you'd be yelling 'outlier' again.

No, because it is consistent with his Extremis showings. Try his fight against Sentry, who was impressed with his speed (and Sentry can reach the sun pretty quickly)

All it even shows is Stark's armor making calculations and then a punch, it doesn't even say how fast his punch went. and throwing one punch anyway doesn't mean you can block,dodge,attack,etc at that same level of speed. He's never shown that

See the meteors

As far as the laser dodge that is not impressive. and its not even Extremis. Cap, Bucky, Parker, Daredevil, the list goes on have all dodged Random Laser # 3.

His armor automatically dodges for him, that's the point

http://s4.tinypic.com/2i90zlw.jpg Here is a more current showing from him and Cap. I never said he was slow anyway, I said outside of combat and space its debatable but in combat he is not faster.

Care to post the page before that?

In Civil War he held his own decently enough, after Civil War when he was pissed he beat him down and had him helpless.

Held his own decently enough? He completely owned Peter effortlessly - I can't believe you're taking that later PIS showing seriously, especially considering their powersets.

You implied Hulk punched at light speed or close to it, backtrack from it now but you know what you were implying.

Oh really? Care to post a quote where I said that? Because you will find no such thing - I have never stated nor implied Hulk can punch at lightspeed, ever. I said Superman could punch at lightspeed, and that Hulk could punch at escape velocity (which is much slower than lightspeed)

Its not exaggerated, you can't just discredit whats on panel and call it "exaggerated" when it suits you.

I'm calling it exaggerated because it is, otherwise the news reports would be completely different.

That was a spirit bomb and it hit the ocean. The hole in the water was about the same size as the bomb and it filled up with water seconds later

And the damage was not nearly as large as the view from space. You can even see other islands sitting undamaged in the area, while if the view from space was an accurate representation of events, the ocean in that area would have been completely boiled away.

More importantly this isn't the Freeza saga. This is before dbz became notorious for loopholes.

"Notorious for loopholes"? Dragonball has had contradictions and such practically since it started. Should I mention the Roshi/Picollo/Picollo Jr. discrepancy?

They are also different because the shot from space on Namek was the explosion of the Spirit Bomb, the shot from space with Nappa is Nappa's actual attack itself.

Is there even a coherent thought in this sentence? In both we see a blast from space, which should have done a lot more damage than it actually did.

Yeah Roshi felt Nappa's ki when he used the attack, and his reaction comes immediately after hearing the newscaster say that 'ALL cities near the incredible earthquakes epicenter'

Did you perhaps consider that it would take longer for reporters to run that news story than it would take for Roshi to feel his ki? That statement came way after Nappa's attack. Not to mention if the blast was as big as it was shown from space they wouldn't be calling it an earthquake in the first place, they would call it an asteroid strike or something.

. Roshi knows all the cities are gone which the reader also knows from the completely obliterated landscape surrounding Nappa and the shot from space.

Let me try to put this more simply: That blast shown from space was similar to the estimated asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. If it was really as destructive as indicated, there would be no reporters talking about it on the news. They would be dead. Furthermore, the fact that they thought it was an earthquake basically leaves your whole argument dead in the water. It can only be out of pure stubbornness that you refuse to recognize this.

We see the zfighters see the explosion from random places on the planet

No they don't, they feel it. Completely different. The only ones to see it were Tien and Chaotzu, and we don't know how far away they were from it (likely not more than a few dozen km)

here is no reason to think it was some small isolated earthquake, the newscaster says 'scientists are baffled at what caused an earthquake of such incredible magnitude'

An earthquake big enough to completely destroy at least one city and destroy/damage multiple other cities is hardly a "small, isolated earthquake", yet it's still not as powerful as the space shot would imply. Stop strawmanning me.

and by this point we had already seen Nappa shake the planet by powering up.

What? When?

No, he never moved anything but an arm again.

Ooh, looks like you're right, I remembered wrong. Conceded on that point, although it doesn't really make a difference.

Is soem guy actuayl sayign iron Man cud take DBZ fighters????

King Piccolo wud tear starks little tin can of a suit apart ! neve mind the higher ups like the ginyus, or freiza !!

Go read his respect thread and come back to me, you obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Yet they still hurt enemies if they hit....

I asked for a scan, apparently that was too much work for you.

No they don't, they feel it. Completely different. The only ones to see it were Tien and Chaotzu, and we don't know how far away they were from it (likely not more than a few dozen km)

A few dozen km seems somewhat unlikely, if the attack was anywhere near as large as it seemed. The radius of the city itself would be >5km wouldn't it? That said, I agree with your point that it wasn't visible from halfway across the Earth the way the space shot makes it seem.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

When did I ever say that? Stop strawmanning me.

It wasn't mean to be an "impressive" fight - it was meant to show Runner's superiority to Surfer. You can't just ignore what is shown because it's not made a big deal of. If there's some huge two - page spread featuring a bunch of characters fighting, and in one corner you see character A KO'ing character B, you can't say it didn't happen because it was just shown in the background and no attention was drawn to it.

Would make no sense unless they were matching their orientations with Surfer and MNS

Yes, but not in the first few panels, and that's all that's needed to establish a background change.

Doesn't matter, since all we need is this scan:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b240/VoltronForce/runnersurfer4.jpg

Panels 4-5 and 5-6 transition

Not necessarily, but fast enough to get pretty far away from the sun. Thank you for proving my point for me.

How so?

See, you answered your own question. Thank you for doing my work for me.

A panel is not a measure of time - two panels could mean anything, depending on context.

Please tell me what Thanos' "regular hand speed" is, and how you determined it.

Because they're jobbers. Captain America has KO'd Hulk and hurt Onslaught. Do you accept that as realistic? Don't even get me started on Wolverine.

Sentry

You seem to be using a very vague standard here. Hulk has plenty of speed feats - just because he's more well - known for his strength doesn't mean he's not fast.

Way to completely miss the point. What I was trying to say was that if writers accepted that weight problem as something to take for granted, then why would they even come up with something like TTK to try to explain it?

Yet those feats prove they can.... if there was some kind of weird explanation given and stated they couldn't, I'd buy it.

The fact that they did perform said feats proves they have that speed, at least for a single strike. You can be as strong as you want but you won't hit someone past escape velocity if you don't hit them fast enough.

Ah well maybe galaxies was a stretch i think it was solar systems u mentioned, neither of which is at all valid.

Im not ignoring what is shown, im just not making it into something that it isnt. As ive shown in numerous surfer fights, there are always changes in background without it meaning anything at all.

also in the midnight sun scan, the ships were moving but were moving away from surfer and midnight sun. So no they cant be used as a point of reference and if we go by ur logic surfer and midnight sun must have been fightin at lightspeed as well. The only problem with that is midnight sun CANT move at lightspeed.

And yes in the first few panels of the runner surfer fight they did change "camera" angles numerous times.

The 2nd to last scan of that fight u showed is the only one that may indicate FTL movement. but during that period as i said, surfer really didnt do anything aside a test of strength with runner while in a stationary position.

And no i didnt prove anything for u. What i did was explain why the sun could NOT be used as a point of reference because it vanishes from the background. If that had been all it would have been different. However, the stars in the background still change just as much as the runner fight. and according to ur logic that must mean faster than light movement. The problem with that once again is that superskrull is NOT capable of that.

lol, Answering ur my question. Are u really trying to group thanos with the superfast characters i was describing? The superfast characters im talking about actually have a history of superspeed and use it regularly something that Thanos certainly does NOT have. So to try and group thanos among the superfast characters who is reckless is just way off considering that he actually has no history of superspeed at all. He is not even close to being in that class.

A panel is not a measure of time but many times, two consecutive panels refer to events rapidly occuring. Also i determined thanos hand speed and speed in general using his history of NOT having or showing superspeed.

And no terrax didnt hit sentry with his axe. Sentry stopped it before it landed by holding terrax's hands.

And no, the thing i was pointing out is that many writers still do take it for granted evidence being that most superstrong characters still perform such feats without having tactile tk as an explanation.

No those feats do not prove they have superstriking speed. Those feats prove that super striking speed is not needed in order to propel a being into orbit or further. A lot of the people that have performed these feats have no history of super striking speed at all not only that but after the said instances they never displayed any form of striking speed either. That discounts the possibility that such a power had been added to their powerset. However, these guys all had one thing in common and that was there superstrength. Proof enough that speed is not needed to perform such feats.

Originally posted by TheBadguy
Read next time, I was talking about Parker there.

Witchblade vs. Kimimaro

Originally posted by jimBOFH
Yes, but mostly this is after the fight has already gone on for a while- I can't remember any fight of equals where there has been a successful damaging ki attack at the beginning.They almost invariably start off with a flurry of punches and kicks which are mostly blocked, then progress to trading unblocked physical attacks and minor ki attacks, and only then do they move on to larger ki attacks. This is probably mostly due to plot reasons, but it also makes sense from the fighters perspective- a successful energy based attack at the beginning of the fight would have to be incredibly powerful, or it would be deflected or absorbed, whereas once both fighters are weakened minor attacks can cause a lot of damage. This isn't the case with Buu or Cell because they need to be totally destroyed, but for other fights the last attack isn't necessarily the most powerful.

Picollo vs. Kami (in that old man's body) started with a ki attack by Kami that really shook Picollo up. Then Picollo responded with a ki blast that Kami was really scared of and dodged, and it made a huge explosion in the ocean behind him. Just one example. I didn't even have to look hard to find it.

Here are the 4 relevant pages I could find (I realise that comment was aimed at someone else, but whatever. The first 2 scans are separated from the last 2 by 3 other pages, but Nappa isn't shown in these.)
*snip*

Scans aren't working, they take me to the mangafox homepage (but it doesn't matter since I conceded this point in my last post)

A few dozen km seems somewhat unlikely, if the attack was anywhere near as large as it seemed. The radius of the city itself would be >5km wouldn't it?

Depends on the size of the city.

That said, I agree with your point that it wasn't visible from halfway across the Earth the way the space shot makes it seem.

Glad to see we're on the same page

Originally posted by ultimatethor
Ah well maybe galaxies was a stretch i think it was solar systems u mentioned, neither of which is at all valid.

You exaggerated my statement, which is fallacious.

Im not ignoring what is shown, im just not making it into something that it isnt. As ive shown in numerous surfer fights, there are always changes in background without it meaning anything at all.

All the examples you gave were not applicable, due to the camera angles.

also in the midnight sun scan, the ships were moving but were moving away from surfer and midnight sun. So no they cant be used as a point of reference and if we go by ur logic surfer and midnight sun must have been fightin at lightspeed as well. The only problem with that is midnight sun CANT move at lightspeed.

Never said he did - widly changing camera angles

And yes in the first few panels of the runner surfer fight they did change "camera" angles numerous times.

Doesn't matter - like I said, all that's necessary the scan I showed.

The 2nd to last scan of that fight u showed is the only one that may indicate FTL movement. but during that period as i said, surfer really didnt do anything aside a test of strength with runner while in a stationary position.

How is it "stationary" if they're moving so fast the stars are changing positions? You also see Surfer punching him in panel 4 and the stars are different but the camera angle is the same in panel 5, and in that panel you can also see them trading attacks with each other (Surfer's hand blasts and Runner's head - blast)

And no i didnt prove anything for u. What i did was explain why the sun could NOT be used as a point of reference because it vanishes from the background. If that had been all it would have been different. However, the stars in the background still change just as much as the runner fight. and according to ur logic that must mean faster than light movement. The problem with that once again is that superskrull is NOT capable of that.

The camera angle is different, but the fact that they moved that far away from the sun means they must have been moving at least a good fraction of the speed of light (don't say he's not capable of that, since in space anything can go near lightspeed with continuous acceleration, we could build a spaceship with today's technology that could go faster than half lightspeed using solar sails or nuclear pulse propulsion, google "Project Orion"😉

lol, Answering ur my question. Are u really trying to group thanos with the superfast characters i was describing? The superfast characters im talking about actually have a history of superspeed and use it regularly something that Thanos certainly does NOT have. So to try and group thanos among the superfast characters who is reckless is just way off considering that he actually has no history of superspeed at all. He is not even close to being in that class.

That's the exact opposite of what I was saying. Thanos' movement speed is not that great, but his reaction speed is excellent.

A panel is not a measure of time but many times, two consecutive panels refer to events rapidly occuring.

And many times, they don't.

Case in point

Also i determined thanos hand speed and speed in general using his history of NOT having or showing superspeed.

Circular reasoning, Tex. All that sentence says is "his speed is not fast because it's not fast". Try again.

And no terrax didnt hit sentry with his axe. Sentry stopped it before it landed by holding terrax's hands.

Stop moving the goalposts, you asked for an incident of Terrax "axing someone directly and them being unphased". Sentry stopping the attack with his hand doesn't mean all of the power in it just disappears.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the key point the analogy: That Terrax has shown himself capable of destroying a planet, so he can, and any time he doesn't we can assume he isn't using full power, just like Hulk has shown himself capable of throwing people at escape velocity and any time he doesn't we can assume he is not using his full speed.

And no, the thing i was pointing out is that many writers still do take it for granted evidence being that most superstrong characters still perform such feats without having tactile tk as an explanation.

Continuing to miss the point - if all writers really didn't care (which would be necessary for your hypothesis to be true), then no one would have ever invented such a thing.

No those feats do not prove they have superstriking speed. Those feats prove that super striking speed is not needed in order to propel a being into orbit or further.

That would only be true if there was some kind of confirmation they were not throwing/punching said people at super speed. Since there isn't, we go by what physics tells us.

A lot of the people that have performed these feats have no history of super striking speed at all not only that but after the said instances they never displayed any form of striking speed either.

Assuming you're talking about the Hulk here, what do you think of these scans? Make sure to read them in order:

http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=monstertoofastfornova.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=northstartagsmonster.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=northstarvsmonster.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster1.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster2.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster3.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed1.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed2.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed3.jpg

Hell, there's a whole section dedicated to speed in his respect thread.

Hulk is so slow 🙄

That discounts the possibility that such a power had been added to their powerset.

It's not some esoteric new power, it's just a simple application of physical stats.

However, these guys all had one thing in common and that was there superstrength. Proof enough that speed is not needed to perform such feats.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp5.jpg

Since when did Flash have super speed?

The fact remains that no one could do that with just strength and not speed unless

A. They weighed billions of tons

B. The laws of gravity completely broke down, meaning planets, stars, and such wouldn't even be able to exist.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
You exaggerated my statement, which is fallacious.

All the examples you gave were not applicable, due to the camera angles.

Never said he did - widly changing camera angles

Doesn't matter - like I said, all that's necessary the scan I showed.

How is it "stationary" if they're moving so fast the stars are changing positions? You also see Surfer punching him in panel 4 and the stars are different but the camera angle is the same in panel 5, and in that panel you can also see them trading attacks with each other (Surfer's hand blasts and Runner's head - blast)

The camera angle is different, but the fact that they moved that far away from the sun means they must have been moving at least a good fraction of the speed of light (don't say he's not capable of that, since in space anything can go near lightspeed with continuous acceleration, we could build a spaceship with today's technology that could go faster than half lightspeed using solar sails or nuclear pulse propulsion, google "Project Orion"😉

That's the exact opposite of what I was saying. Thanos' movement speed is not that great, but his reaction speed is excellent.

And many times, they don't.

Case in point

Circular reasoning, Tex. All that sentence says is "his speed is not fast because it's not fast". Try again.

Stop moving the goalposts, you asked for an incident of Terrax "axing someone directly and them being unphased". Sentry stopping the attack with his hand doesn't mean all of the power in it just disappears.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the key point the analogy: That Terrax has shown himself capable of destroying a planet, so he can, and any time he doesn't we can assume he isn't using full power, just like Hulk has shown himself capable of throwing people at escape velocity and any time he doesn't we can assume he is not using his full speed.

Continuing to miss the point - if all writers really didn't care (which would be necessary for your hypothesis to be true), then no one would have ever invented such a thing.

That would only be true if there was some kind of confirmation they were not throwing/punching said people at super speed. Since there isn't, we go by what physics tells us.

Assuming you're talking about the Hulk here, what do you think of these scans? Make sure to read them in order:

http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=monstertoofastfornova.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=northstartagsmonster.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=northstarvsmonster.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster1.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster2.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=novanorthstarvsfastmonster3.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed1.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed2.jpg
http://s160.photobucket.com/albums/t173/EndlessMike9/?action=view&current=hulkspeed3.jpg

Hell, there's a whole section dedicated to speed in his respect thread.

Hulk is so slow 🙄

It's not some esoteric new power, it's just a simple application of physical stats.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff102/Wally_Respect2/zumimp5.jpg

Since when did Flash have super speed?

The fact remains that no one could do that with just strength and not speed unless

A. They weighed billions of tons

B. The laws of gravity completely broke down, meaning planets, stars, and such wouldn't even be able to exist.

In all honesty the exxageration was unintentional. I admitted that it was actually solar system that was mentioned and hence not galaxy. However, the point is still invalid regardless

All the examples i gave are very valid as the "camera" angles change just as much as the runner fight which u did not have a problem using.

The only part of the scan u showed that has any relevance is the bottom part of the scan with the blurred lines and this occurs when both runner and surfer are engaged each other on his board.

By stationary i meant maintaning a single position. Runner and surfer were standing on his board grappling each other with their feet planted on the board which was moving. As i said that is the only point in the fight were there was any credible sign of faster than light movement of any kind.

The camera angle for the superskrull fight is changes at the same rate as it does throughout the runner fight. What u said really is of no relevance as we are not talking of achieving near light speeds here but moving FTL( project orion or whatever potentially could achieve speeds of 80% of the speed of light) which by ur logic would be required in order for stars to change positions and patterns between panels.

And no as i said thanos has showed his striking speed is NOT that great in being unable to tag beings like gamora.

And frankly the scan u posted is not even analogous to the thanos scan at all. The thanos scan shows a continuous action overlapping between panels. The scan of galactus being birthed is not a continuous action like the thanos scan and completely switches scenery between panels. Not to mention it is even a flashback and not an ongoing which provides reason for the complete time and scenery shift.

No its not circular reasoning it all. Its reasoning backed up by on panel showings. I determined that thanos strikingspeed is not great based on his lack of showings throughout a bulk of his history to prove the contrary.

And no by axe someone directly it should be obvious i meant that the axe blow actually connects. Sentry didnt GET HIT with the axe itself he stopped it mid swing. Impressive? yes because easily stopping terrax considering how strong he is from swinging is axe can is a nice feat. Relevant to what i was talking about? Not even close. Terrax channels and amplifies his energy through his axe. When the axe connects a huge amount of cosmic energy is released making it a very lethal weapon. Being able to stop the axe from hitting you by restraining terrax, while nice is not at all comparable to getting wacked by it and being unphased.

Moreover, u are the one that is continuously missing the point. As i said, hulk is not a singular example and i named numerous others that have done the same who are unable to strike at superspeeds(Rhino being a good example). Further, terrax being able to destroy a planet is clearly in line with his on panel history,established powerset and established power level. That is the reason we can assume that if he fails to display such power at a particular point in time he is not using it to his full potential. This is entirely different from the numerous superstrong brick characters that have no history of being able to strike at superspeed and neither is it within their powerset but have still been able to punch people at much greater than escape velocity

And once again u r distorting the point, its not that all writers dont care, its that most writers dont care and hence it is a prevalent trend in comics.

The confirmation that we have is in the characters history. Them not having such striking ability and them still not manifesting such striking ability after the given instances. Further these characters all sharing in common the trait of superstrength while shows that strength and not speed was the crucial factor in their performance of these feats.

Since when did flash have superspeed 😕 I really dont know what ur talking about there.

No the fact remains that people without the striking speed needed to perform such feats have performed them numerous times in comics based on strength alone. As i said many comics pick and choose when and when not to correctly apply science.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Picollo vs. Kami (in that old man's body) started with a ki attack by Kami that really shook Picollo up. Then Picollo responded with a ki blast that Kami was really scared of and dodged, and it made a huge explosion in the ocean behind him. Just one example. I didn't even have to look hard to find it.

Good point. I can't remember any examples like that from Dragonball Z though. And even in that fight- they weren't able to finish each other with those attacks.

Originally posted by Endless Mike

Scans aren't working, they take me to the mangafox homepage (but it doesn't matter since I conceded this point in my last post)

What's with the walls of text? No one with a life is going to read this stuff.... get in with your point and get out... quick!

haha good point !!

Originally posted by ultimatethor
In all honesty the exxageration was unintentional. I admitted that it was actually solar system that was mentioned and hence not galaxy. However, the point is still invalid regardless

That remains to be seen

All the examples i gave are very valid as the "camera" angles change just as much as the runner fight which u did not have a problem using.

Not in the panel transitions I mentioned

The only part of the scan u showed that has any relevance is the bottom part of the scan with the blurred lines and this occurs when both runner and surfer are engaged each other on his board.

No, the few panels before that the camera angles are the same (from the right side from Surfer's perspective)

By stationary i meant maintaning a single position. Runner and surfer were standing on his board grappling each other with their feet planted on the board which was moving. As i said that is the only point in the fight were there was any credible sign of faster than light movement of any kind.

Except for the changing constellations with consistent camera angles in the previous panels

The camera angle for the superskrull fight is changes at the same rate as it does throughout the runner fight.

Not in the panels I was pointing out

What u said really is of no relevance as we are not talking of achieving near light speeds here but moving FTL( project orion or whatever potentially could achieve speeds of 80% of the speed of light) which by ur logic would be required in order for stars to change positions and patterns between panels.

Nope, because there were no parts in the Super Skrull fight where we saw changing backgrounds behind consistent camera angles, like we did in those particular panels I mentioned in the Runner fight

And no as i said thanos has showed his striking speed is NOT that great in being unable to tag beings like gamora.

The point is that Gamora has PIS comic book super martial arts powers like Karate Kid - they shouldn't realistically be able to dodge/tag the people they do yet they can anyway. Pre - Crisis Karate Kid was dodging attacks from Flashes, would you say the Flashes are slow because they couldn't hit him? No, he just has ridiculous martial art powers - Gamora is the same type of character

And frankly the scan u posted is not even analogous to the thanos scan at all. The thanos scan shows a continuous action overlapping between panels. The scan of galactus being birthed is not a continuous action like the thanos scan and completely switches scenery between panels. Not to mention it is even a flashback and not an ongoing which provides reason for the complete time and scenery shift.

Stop making excuses, you said that consecutive panels indicate short amounts of time, and I provided a counterexample to disprove that

No its not circular reasoning it all. Its reasoning backed up by on panel showings. I determined that thanos strikingspeed is not great based on his lack of showings throughout a bulk of his history to prove the contrary.

And yet you simply accept me to take your word for it, since your argument basically amounts to "because I said so"

I could just as easily say "I determined that thanos strikingspeed is great based on his showings throughout a bulk of his history"

Opposite claim, same amount of evidence

Why don't you show me examples of quantifiable speed and calculate them, then determine an average?

Or is that too much work for you?

And no by axe someone directly it should be obvious i meant that the axe blow [B]actually connects. Sentry didnt GET HIT with the axe itself he stopped it mid swing.

Sure he didn't get hit with the blade, but if Terrax can put enough power in the ax to destroy a planet it's the momentum that matters

Impressive? yes because easily stopping terrax considering how strong he is from swinging is axe can is a nice feat. Relevant to what i was talking about? Not even close. Terrax channels and amplifies his energy through his axe. When the axe connects a huge amount of cosmic energy is released making it a very lethal weapon.

Where was this mechanism stated?

Being able to stop the axe from hitting you by restraining terrax, while nice is not at all comparable to getting wacked by it and being unphased.

Okay, fine then. What about this?

http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc204&image=82966_last2.jpg

He hits Morg with it right in his head and Morg still alive, conscious, and uninjured

Moreover, u are the one that is continuously missing the point. As i said, hulk is not a singular example and i named numerous others that have done the same who are unable to strike at superspeeds(Rhino being a good example).

So you admit Hulk can throw/punch things at escape velocity?

Further, terrax being able to destroy a planet is clearly in line with his on panel history,established powerset and established power level.

And how exactly do you determine this? Seems like appealing to vague notions without actually saying anything.

That is the reason we can assume that if he fails to display such power at a particular point in time he is not using it to his full potential. This is entirely different from the numerous superstrong brick characters that have no history of being able to strike at superspeed

Again, how do you determine this?

and neither is it within their powerset

How could it not be within their powerset? If you have stronger muscles, then you can move your limbs faster. The only exception would be if your body got heavier in proportion to your strength - so for example Hank Pym in giant form would be a lot stronger than a normal human, but still not able to move his limbs a lot faster since he would be bigger/heavier in proportion. For relatively human - sized super strong characters, if they don't weight many tons, it makes sense that they would be able to move their limbs faster, since more force applied to the same weight = more speed. Basic physics.

but have still been able to punch people at much greater than escape velocity

So you admit they can then

And once again u r distorting the point, its not that all writers dont care, its that most writers dont care and hence it is a prevalent trend in comics.

But the fact that some writers do care undermines your entire point, since if you can't cover it with a blanket statement you would have to read the minds of each individual writer to make that claim, and you can't

The confirmation that we have is in the characters history. Them not having such striking ability and them still not manifesting such striking ability after the given instances. Further these characters all sharing in common the trait of superstrength while shows that strength and not speed was the crucial factor in their performance of these feats.

Except it's completely illogical. You might as well say that if a character known for their teleporting powers manages to knock a strong person out, and that character "doesn't have a history of super strength", then they did it with teleportation, which makes absolutely no sense in context. Again, if there was some kind of explanation saying that they did it with teleportation, we would have to accept it even though it makes no sense, just as if there was some kind of explanation saying that an orbital throw was done with strength and not speed - but in these cases there isn't.

Since when did flash have superspeed I really dont know what ur talking about there.

Sorry, I meant super strength, my point was that he did it in that scan with super speed, meaning that's a legitimate way to knock someone into orbit in comics

No the fact remains that people without the striking speed needed to perform such feats have performed them numerous times in comics

Which means they can

based on strength alone.

Stated when? This is just your hypothesis

As i said many comics pick and choose when and when not to correctly apply science. [/B]

Of course, but if something happens that can be explained by science (throwing someone into orbit = escape velocity speed) and there's no explanation in the comic stating it was anything else, we use the known science

Although I have to say, I'm getting pretty tired of this debate, and it looks like the other posters here are, too - we've basically hijacked the entire thread. It's pretty obvious we're not going to convince each other, so perhaps we can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.