Originally posted by jimBOFH
Good point. I can't remember any examples like that from Dragonball Z though. And even in that fight- they weren't able to finish each other with those attacks.
Only because they dodged them - and that was simply an example I found with a quick look through the manga, I'm sure there are more
That's odd, they work fine for me.
Well, if you do want to see them, it's Vol 19. Ch 10, pages 13 and 14, and Ch 11, pages 4 and 5.
Got it
Originally posted by Endless Mike
That remains to be seenNot in the panel transitions I mentioned
No, the few panels before that the camera angles are the same (from the right side from Surfer's perspective)
Except for the changing constellations with consistent camera angles in the previous panels
Not in the panels I was pointing out
Nope, because there were no parts in the Super Skrull fight where we saw changing backgrounds behind consistent camera angles, like we did in those particular panels I mentioned in the Runner fight
The point is that Gamora has PIS comic book super martial arts powers like Karate Kid - they shouldn't realistically be able to dodge/tag the people they do yet they can anyway. Pre - Crisis Karate Kid was dodging attacks from Flashes, would you say the Flashes are slow because they couldn't hit him? No, he just has ridiculous martial art powers - Gamora is the same type of character
Stop making excuses, you said that consecutive panels indicate short amounts of time, and I provided a counterexample to disprove that
And yet you simply accept me to take your word for it, since your argument basically amounts to "because I said so"
I could just as easily say "I determined that thanos strikingspeed is great based on his showings throughout a bulk of his history"
Opposite claim, same amount of evidence
Why don't you show me examples of quantifiable speed and calculate them, then determine an average?
Or is that too much work for you?
Sure he didn't get hit with the blade, but if Terrax can put enough power in the ax to destroy a planet it's the momentum that matters
Where was this mechanism stated?
Okay, fine then. What about this?
http://img132.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc204&image=82966_last2.jpg
He hits Morg with it right in his head and Morg still alive, conscious, and uninjured
So you admit Hulk can throw/punch things at escape velocity?
And how exactly do you determine this? Seems like appealing to vague notions without actually saying anything.
Again, how do you determine this?
How could it not be within their powerset? If you have stronger muscles, then you can move your limbs faster. The only exception would be if your body got heavier in proportion to your strength - so for example Hank Pym in giant form would be a lot stronger than a normal human, but still not able to move his limbs a lot faster since he would be bigger/heavier in proportion. For relatively human - sized super strong characters, if they don't weight many tons, it makes sense that they would be able to move their limbs faster, since more force applied to the same weight = more speed. Basic physics.
So you admit they can then
But the fact that some writers do care undermines your entire point, since if you can't cover it with a blanket statement you would have to read the minds of each individual writer to make that claim, and you can't
Except it's completely illogical. You might as well say that if a character known for their teleporting powers manages to knock a strong person out, and that character "doesn't have a history of super strength", then they did it with teleportation, which makes absolutely no sense in context. Again, if there was some kind of explanation saying that they did it with teleportation, we would have to accept it even though it makes no sense, just as if there was some kind of explanation saying that an orbital throw was done with strength and not speed - but in these cases there isn't.
Sorry, I meant super strength, my point was that he did it in that scan with super speed, meaning that's a legitimate way to knock someone into orbit in comics
Which means they can
Stated when? This is just your hypothesis
Of course, but if something happens that can be explained by science (throwing someone into orbit = escape velocity speed) and there's no explanation in the comic stating it was anything else, we use the known science
Although I have to say, I'm getting pretty tired of this debate, and it looks like the other posters here are, too - we've basically hijacked the entire thread. It's pretty obvious we're not going to convince each other, so perhaps we can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that.
In the third scan of the midnight sun fight, the bottom panels show a consistent camera angle with stars in different positions. Doesnt mean they were FTL
Also in the scan u r referring to we see the first traces of blurred lines from the runner and surfer. That is what indicates the enhanced speed they are moving at not the stars in the background.
changing constellations with consistent camera angles didnt signify anything any more than they did in the midnight sun fight. In the scan ur talking about the we see the blurred lines begun to form around runner and surfer and thats what indicates their movement speed.
Well since u could only point out one panel in which it was even the blurred lines and not the stars that indicated their speed in then its obvious that they werent moving at FTL the entire fight.
There was in the midnight sun fight
Well who has gamora dodged with comparable speed to flash? Because i dont see any reason to equate her to pre crisis karate kid. Further we woudnt claim the flashes are slow because they actually have a history of consistently showing speed and thereofre karate kid dodging them wud have to be a PIS feat. Gamora dodging thanos ( again who has gamora dodged comparable to flash) who does not have a history of speed is hardly comparable.
No u r distorting what i said. I said "many times", consecutive panels refer to events rapidly occuring. I never said they always do. The likelyhood of this is further increased in cases like the thanos one in which a continuous action is shown overlapping through the panels. The scan u showed is completely unrelated and not even comparable to the thanos one.
If u claimed that thanos striking speed is great based on his history even u ud know that to be false. Thanos doesnt have any showings indicating his striking superspeed-FACT. therefore the lack of such showings proves my point just fine. the only way to disprove that would be by u actually providing some showings to the contrary which u havent.
Its the energy the axe emantes that matters
http://www.marvel.com/universe/Terrax
See above
Morg has survived the destruction of a planet easily as well so he is not a relevant example.
Well i determined that by looking at terrax history. He is regularly portrayed ( save PIS instances) as a being with the regular power output of a herald of galactus. taking holding his own agianst beings like silver surfer,firelord,morg and other heralds. Further it is within his power set because we know his axe can and does emanate destructive energy and therfore to destroy a planet all he wud need t do wud be to emanate a sufficient amount of energy.
I determine this simply by their lack of showings in that regard.
And no ur logic that superstrong characters must be able to move their limbs at superspeed is way off. In comics most superstrong characters are far slower than those who are less strong than them in practically evry aspect. Their lack of feats in this regard solidifies this.
Yup they can but its not due to their speed
Thats not the point. The point is that it happens enough in comics to make it a prevalent trend.
Actually if characters with teleportation powers have consistently shown the ability to knock durable people out but have also consistently shown not to be superstrong then it wouldnt be a stretch to think that it probably did have something to do with their teleportation.
Yeah it is a legitimate way to knock a person into orbit just as using strength is as well
Actually if something happens in a comic that can be explained by science but contradcits a characters history in the sense that the character does not have that ability id rather not try to explain it scientifacally because of how frequently comics ignore the rules of science
Anyways this is my las post on this as im tired as well. Im sure that neither of us are convinced on the others point so agree to disagree it is then
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Only because they dodged them - and that was simply an example I found with a quick look through the manga, I'm sure there are moreGot it
Maybe...IIRC Ki attacks were much more unusual in Dragonball than in DBZ, where they're used much more often.
My point was though, that a ki attack that would be easily deflected by a fighter at the beginning of a fight is still more than powerful enough to kill them if they no longer have the energy to deflect it or cancel it. So in many cases, the finishing moves aren't necessarily the most powerful attack launched in a fight- particularly as fighters will either dodge, or use up energy countering, powerful attacks early on in the fight.
I think the best example of this is Goku vs Frieza.
Like I said, I really don't feel like arguing over this much more, so I'll just respond to a few things:
Originally posted by ultimatethor
In the third scan of the midnight sun fight, the bottom panels show a consistent camera angle with stars in different positions. Doesnt mean they were FTL
Actually it seems to show the same star cluster in the same position in both, it's just that more stars are visible in the first panel, possibly due to some kind of lighting discrepancy
Also in the scan u r referring to we see the first traces of blurred lines from the runner and surfer. That is what indicates the enhanced speed they are moving at not the stars in the background.
The stars indicate speed, the lines could indicate even greater speed
Well since u could only point out one panel in which it was even the blurred lines and not the stars that indicated their speed in then its obvious that they werent moving at FTL the entire fight.
Did I ever say they were?
Well who has gamora dodged with comparable speed to flash? Because i dont see any reason to equate her to pre crisis karate kid. Further we woudnt claim the flashes are slow because they actually have a history of consistently showing speed and thereofre karate kid dodging them wud have to be a PIS feat.
Nope, he did that kind of stuff all the time. It was his power, it made no sense but that's just what he did. Besides, it's not as if Thanos and Gamora were fighting seriously - if he wanted to kill her she would have died.
If u claimed that thanos striking speed is great based on his history even u ud know that to be false. Thanos doesnt have any showings indicating his striking superspeed-FACT. therefore the lack of such showings proves my point just fine. the only way to disprove that would be by u actually providing some showings to the contrary which u havent.
Hitting Captain Marvell to earth
Fighting Mistress Death's hordes of the dead
Tagging Surfer and beating him down
And no ur logic that superstrong characters must be able to move their limbs at superspeed is way off. In comics most superstrong characters are far slower than those who are less strong than them in practically evry aspect. Their lack of feats in this regard solidifies this.
Generally slower than characters with super speed, but not normal characters
Actually if characters with teleportation powers have consistently shown the ability to knock durable people out but have also consistently shown not to be superstrong then it wouldnt be a stretch to think that it probably did have something to do with their teleportation.
But that makes no sense at all
Yeah it is a legitimate way to knock a person into orbit just as using strength is as well
How then?
Actually if something happens in a comic that can be explained by science but contradcits a characters history in the sense that the character does not have that ability id rather not try to explain it scientifacally because of how frequently comics ignore the rules of science
But that's a hasty generalization fallacy. If someone does something like going faster than light that defies science, then lifts 100 tons, would you say it wasn't really 100 tons because weight/mass are defined by science and that character already defied known science? Science would apply except where it's explicitly shown/stated not to
Anyways this is my las post on this as im tired as well. Im sure that neither of us are convinced on the others point so agree to disagree it is then
Fine, sounds good to me
Maybe...IIRC Ki attacks were much more unusual in Dragonball than in DBZ, where they're used much more often.
By the 23rd Budokai they were fairly common, actually
My point was though, that a ki attack that would be easily deflected by a fighter at the beginning of a fight is still more than powerful enough to kill them if they no longer have the energy to deflect it or cancel it. So in many cases, the finishing moves aren't necessarily the most powerful attack launched in a fight- particularly as fighters will either dodge, or use up energy countering, powerful attacks early on in the fight.
I think the best example of this is Goku vs Frieza.
Yeah, but strong ki attacks can still be effective early in a fight
Sh8t Endless lies is still at it.
Shut up and go get banned again, PhenomenALT
Originally posted by jalek moye
well if its every american superhero vs every anime fighters.The superheros have way more numerous powerful people
Surfer wrecks most of them in a 1 v 1
I'm really not sure there are more American super heroes than Anime Characters. And as far as being ridiculously overpowered goes, I think the combination of DBZ characters, for martial prowess, and characters like Light Yagami from Death Note, is just broken, really.
Imagine if all the Z fighters were being used as frontline troops, while Light Yagami uses the Death Note to wipe out key figures, all under the direction of, say Section Chief Aramaki and L. Lawliet, with intelligence gathering being overseen by Section 9, the Laughing Man, and the Cabinet Intelligence Service. That's only 3 anime series, but the variety and extent of powers, IMO, gives them an insurmountable advantage.
Originally posted by Endless Mike
Shut up and go get banned again, PhenomenALT
Hahahahaha, you think I'm Phenom now? Or are you just lying to yourself now Endless lies or living your lies? I will give you the benefit of a doubt tho, I had an account here when Phenom was here and b&. Later Lies, you can proceed with your bull sh8t you spew like a backed up toilet. Youi have nothing to fear i won't school you on Anime > American heroes.
Originally posted by carver9Gokou never fought anybody like Surfer. Does it really matter at all if they've fought anybody like each other? Gokou is just a martial artist with energy beams that blow up planets and can move faster than sound. Surfer would beat Gokou easily.
Naah, surfer never fought someone like goku. I honestly think that surfer would get that ass whipped and again this is black hair goku.
Current Strange vs Negi Springfield.
Originally posted by carver9
Naah, surfer never fought someone like goku. I honestly think that surfer would get that ass whipped and again this is black hair goku.
Im not an avid DBZ guy but by Black hair goku do u mean goku before supersayain? cuz i can confidently say that there is no way any goku can beat surfer let alone goku at that level.
Much greater Durability+forcefields=surfer
Superior power output= surfer
Superior versatility= Surfer ( by like 20 powers to 1)
All goku has got on surfer is h2h speed and skill which is pretty useless in comparison to all surfers advantages. Does goku have matter manip resistance?( to someone on surfers level if at all) If not surfer could just scatter his electrons or trap him in his board or devolve him into an amoeba etc.
Originally posted by ultimatethor
Im not an avid DBZ guy but by Black hair goku do u mean goku before supersayain? cuz i can confidently say that there is no way any goku can beat surfer let alone goku at that level.Much greater Durability+forcefields=surfer
Superior power output= surfer
Superior versatility= Surfer ( by like 20 powers to 1)All goku has got on surfer is h2h speed and skill which is pretty useless in comparison to all surfers advantages. Does goku have matter manip resistance?( to someone on surfers level if at all) If not surfer could just scatter his electrons or trap him in his board or devolve him into an amoeba etc.
Versatility: I agree, I give that to surfer.
Durability: questionable. You cant say surfer is durable because of the damage that goku has taken from his equals. I'm pretty sure that firelord, terrax, and morg could damage surfer also.
Power output: This goes to goku. Both have the power to power up and blow up planets and also crash planets at will but I believed in cell word when he said that he could destroy a solar system because gohun believed it and all the z fighters are able to read power levels and out put of power.
Super saiyan goku would thrash silver surfer and that again is being generous. When it comes to marvel characters I give surfer the nod over a lot of characters but I honestly think that goku would destroy him given the chance.
Originally posted by carver9
Versatility: I agree, I give that to surfer.
Durability: questionable. You cant say surfer is durable because of the damage that goku has taken from his equals. I'm pretty sure that firelord, terrax, and morg could damage surfer also.
Power output: This goes to goku. Both have the power to power up and blow up planets and also crash planets at will but I believed in cell word when he said that he could destroy a solar system because gohun believed it and all the z fighters are able to read power levels and out put of power.Super saiyan goku would thrash silver surfer and that again is being generous. When it comes to marvel characters I give surfer the nod over a lot of characters but I honestly think that goku would destroy him given the chance.
Gokus equals unfortunately dont dish out as much damage as those near surfers level.
And im not sure about gokus ability to destroy a solar sytem i mean no offense but it seems most of the forum doesnt buy it and since he hasnt done it before im not sure i do either. Surfer on the other has shown that his energy output is enough to create a blackhole with a casual discharge of energy. Keep in mind our own sun isnt
near massive enough to accomplish the same.
Considering the damage surfer has been able to take i doubt goku could hurt him very much and since i doubt goku has matter manip resistance he probly gets devolved or has his electrons scattered in the first few seconds of the fight.
